np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Patolegend!]

Gonna post this from yesterday (for some reason I couldn't) 'cos it still applies:

It doesn't even need to be stated that while 50/50s are present in the game anyway, Aegislash forces excessive 50/50s, and it isn't too uncommon for games to be decided by whether the opponent uses KS or not. Hopefully, suspect voters can agree that a metagame where 50/50s are not overly excessive is preferable to a metagame where 50/50s are, and see that this is yet another reason to keep Aegislash in Ubers. As for the KS ban, Aegislash has sets, mainly the All out attacker one, that are still very effective without it. If it doesn't contribute to the meta by alleviating matchup issues, and dramatically limits options in building, there is still no reason to bring it down.

Sorry to cherry pick, but I just wanted to emphasise this point a little, as I feel like people are not taking this argument seriously and are discounting it too easily when it is a real issue.

As Rick says, Aegislash forces excessive 50/50's, more so than Bisharp's sucker punch. This is also due to the sheer versatility of sets that it can run effectively - Bisharp will always have Sucker Punch for example, but Aegi can function very well without KS, and the opponent always has to take the risk. If Aegi does have KS, it's a real 50/50, but most importantly, it's ALWAYS in Aegi's favor, due to the attack reducing effect.

Knock off is a really common move in the meta now, and its definitely tempting to use against Aegi; the problem is, if you don't have Bisharp, you now have to risk ending up with -2 Atk and losing a huge chunk of health.

-2 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 88-104 (27.1 - 32%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 90-108 (27.7 - 33.3%) -- 88.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

All of a sudden, you lose the momentum while not trading that much damage. Granted, it's not something that Aegi can do repeatedly, but it doesn't need to. It's not going to sweep, it wants to pull apart teams, not to finish them off (apart from sets like SD, Autonomize, and WP sets). It's just so difficult to stop it doing its job.

Another point made earlier is that KS also makes Choice items a liability to a certain extent, especially on balance and fatter teams. KS, with it's -2 effect, is what pushes me to believe that Aegi shouldn't be in OU, especially when combined with its power, bulk, and versatility.

Without KS it wouldn't be anywhere near as good, as it would have to use protect on defensive sets and lose out being able to make the most of its ability - it would just be used as an offensive hit and runner.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

As Rick says, Aegislash forces excessive 50/50's, more so than Bisharp's sucker punch. This is also due to the sheer versatility of sets that it can run effectively - Bisharp will always have Sucker Punch for example, but Aegi can function very well without KS, and the opponent always has to take the risk. If Aegi does have KS, it's a real 50/50, but most importantly, it's ALWAYS in Aegi's favor, due to the attack reducing effect.

Knock off is a really common move in the meta now, and its definitely tempting to use against Aegi; the problem is, if you don't have Bisharp, you now have to risk ending up with -2 Atk and losing a huge chunk of health.

Realistically though, I don't recall when knock off was a coverage move that pokemon use in a 1v1 situation. Like most lure and coverage moves, it's going to be hitting on the switch. Say you have a gallade with knock off in your team, are you going to bring it in on aegislash as a revenge killer just because you have knock off? Of course not, neither are you going to stay in with gallade knowing the second knock off won't do any significant damage.

-2 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 88-104 (27.1 - 32%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 90-108 (27.7 - 33.3%) -- 88.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I have a few problems with these calcs, again, why would scizor be staying in and using a -2 bullet punch on aegislash? Why would scizor use pursuit? That's like saying you should pursuit trap victini because it's part psychic, just because aegislash is a ghost doesn't mean trapping it is your solution. Conkeldurr would be hitting aegi on switch, and another thing aegislash has to worry about is say conk going for drain punch on the KS to avoid the drop, and then outslowing and knocking him off on blade form. Bringing in azumaril because it has knock off, again seems pointless as azumaril will be hitting the switch, not switching in as your aegislash answer just because it has a SE move. Nitpicking, but also you forgot to remove lefties recovery since knock off would pretty much get rid of that.

All of a sudden, you lose the momentum while not trading that much damage. Granted, it's not something that Aegi can do repeatedly, but it doesn't need to. It's not going to sweep, it wants to pull apart teams, not to finish them off (apart from sets like SD, Autonomize, and WP sets). It's just so difficult to stop it doing its job.

You can say the aegislash player loses momentum too. Aegi still has to worry about the revenge killer, and while he does 2HKO a large portion of the tier, due to low speed he is still forced out and causing something else on his team to get hit, giving the opponent momentum favor too.

Another point made earlier is that KS also makes Choice items a liability to a certain extent, especially on balance and fatter teams. KS, with it's -2 effect, is what pushes me to believe that Aegi shouldn't be in OU, especially when combined with its power, bulk, and versatility.

Again, choice locking into a move like knock off to begin with isn't going to go too far eventually either. Is azumaril going to come in, and stay in late game cleaning with knock off? Never have I seen one do so. Realistically, most choiced users would be using a special or noncontact move that make aegi a liability to switch into and stop. Is air balloon heatran broken because it forces choiced users to switch out and gives him momentum or status oppurtunities? No.

 

[Patolegend!]

Realistically though, I don't recall when knock off was a coverage move that pokemon use in a 1v1 situation. Like most lure and coverage moves, it's going to be hitting on the switch. Say you have a gallade with knock off in your team, are you going to bring it in on aegislash as a revenge killer just because you have knock off? Of course not, neither are you going to stay in with gallade knowing the second knock off won't do any significant damage.

Knock Off is a powerful coverage move that is used as coverage..... aegi switches in on a resisted move (drain punch, ice punch, whatever), then gets bopped by knock off - it doesnt have to be on the switch, due to its low speed.

252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Shield Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 70-86 (25.2 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

If Aegi's taken damage, then hell yeah I'm gonna bring Gallade in to revenge its ass. (not to kill it from 100% health)

I have a few problems with these calcs, again, why would scizor be staying in and using a -2 bullet punch on aegislash? Why would scizor use pursuit? That's like saying you should pursuit trap victini because it's part psychic, just because aegislash is a ghost doesn't mean trapping it is your solution. Conkeldurr would be hitting aegi on switch, and another thing aegislash has to worry about is say conk going for drain punch on the KS to avoid the drop, and then outslowing and knocking him off on blade form. Bringing in azumaril because it has knock off, again seems pointless as azumaril will be hitting the switch, not switching it. Nitpicking, but also you forgot to remove lefties recovery since knock off would pretty much get rid of that.

Why would scizor use pursuit? Please tell me you're kidding me. Pursuit is the only form of trapping Aegi, so yeah, banded Scizor would use pursuit, like against Gengar, etc. Bullet punch I don't know where you got it from, but pursuit is valid - it was showing that with KS (which I consider a bordeline broken move) the 50/50 is significantly in Aegi's favor, as it can stay in, reduce Scizor's attack, stay in and massacre it, or switch out. Scizor loses in this situation.

You can say the aegislash player loses momentum too. Aegi still has to worry about the revenge killer, and while he does 2HKO a large portion of the tier, due to low speed he is still forced out and causing something else on his team to get hit, giving the opponent momentum favor too.

Hence the 50/50 argument.

Again, choice locking into a move like knock off to begin with isn't going to go too far eventually either. If azumaril going to come in, and stay in late game cleaning with knock off? Never have I seen one do so. Realistically, most choiced users would be using a special or noncontact move that make aegi a liability to switch into and stop. Is air balloon heatran broken because it forces choiced users to switch out and gives him momentum or status oppurtunities? No.

I'm not talking about choiced Knock Off. I'm talking about a protect with a triple benefit of increasing it's defenses, reducing attack on contact moves, and scouting the choiced attack. Scizor bluffing pursuit and U-turning is a good example. Aegi is not switching into the Choiced move, that's the whole point. It's scouting what's going to be used to revenge it, and its switching/attacking, thus making Choice users more of a liability.

I'm sorry, but you missed the main points of my post.

 

[MikeDawg]

I just want to point out something, Reymedy: the tiers, on their origins, were intended for everyone to be able to use their favorites.
That's why we keep that usage-based tier lists (in my opinion absurd, as this system keeps some unviable mons above the tiers they should be simply because many incompetent players keep using them where they shouldn't, flygon being the most obvious one, as even the UU viability ranking points it out). If we ban half the tier simply because they are too many threats because of that tier system, we are adressing the problem the wrong way. Maybe it's time to revise how we make the tiers, and how we should make teams.
In addition, if we send all that stuff on the Uber tier, and considering that many are actually not really useful there, mostly because of the primigenies screwing up with the equillibrium (and before you do the typical shitty response, remember everyone: since the creation of AG, Ubers IS NOT "JUST A BANLIST" ANYMORE, anyone who brings that stupid comment again should get a deleted post).

I propose an alternative, for a detailed explanation, look at this thread:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/personal-idea-to-try-to-fix-the-too-many-pókemon-around-problem.3536702/

EDIT: i have split the comment on a new thread, this is not a good place to start reconsidering the tiers, Reymedy. (to any auth seeing this, if creating a new thread without express permit is not allowed, i created it simply because i do not want to turn this into the OT of the forum, thanks for the attention and sorry for the thread).

I can say with certainty that we aren't going to ban (figuratively) half of the tier, though. Metagross is perhaps the most invasive threat, and that was deemed to be fine, even if by a small margin. Nothing is absolutely outright "broken" right now.

Like AM said, team matchup is way overblown. Imo, the only things that can really run through a well-built team are/were relatively obscure (think digersby, ampharos, hawlucha, cguard altaria, Style, etc.). That isn't neccesarily because it was impossible to prepare for them; it's because they simply don't come to mind when teambuilding, but they can be effective in their niche situations. This is the case not only with ORAS, but with any of the modern generations, at least to a good extent (with the qualifier simply because I'm not entirely familiar with dpp, but bw and xy definitely hold true here).

Historically, having aegislash limits mons more than having too many threats. Gardevoir, heracross, medicham, hawlucha, etc fell out of style, because they became practically deadweight against the mon in the tier. In fact, this is one of the main arguments for arguing its return: it limits mons, making it easier to teambuild. On that note, bringing aegislash back doesn't absolutely eliminate the aforementioned pokemon; it turns them into hawluchas and diggersbys. The faux safety will on average make them less common, but they will exist anyway, and they will have no trouble running through a now unprepared team that doesn't feature aegislash or where Aegislash is pressured/lured. Of course, any check/counter can be beaten in such a way, but it seems like people are ignoring this fact when dealing with Aegislash and hailing it as some mesaih when it may exasperate, or at the very least fail to fix, the problem to begin with.

Aegislash as a pokemon it too low risk/high reward. All of its sets are good: crumbler, tank, fast sd, sub toxic, weak policy sd, rock polish, and there isn't really any reason to not include it on a team. Kings shield has been discussed to death. Typing has been discussed to death. Lack of actual checks/counters has been discussed to death. There isn't much more to say about how stellar and imo overpowered aegislash is as a pokemon, even looking past the "blah blah unhealthy blah blah centralizing" argument (at least people stopped sayig overcenteralizing). The contextual relevant people (voters) are hopefully aware of this, but saying "I've played 10 games on the ladder/ im at 1300 elo/ (even) i have reqs and then coming to a conclusion solely based on that experience is dumb. The ladder is awful, especially in the first 15-20 matches, and a poorly played aegislash on either side shows nothing worthwhile. A small amount of experience using even a decently played aegislash hardly shows anything either. Some on-paper arguments have to be incoporated to consider the prevelant issues that just don't show up on the ladder because if a relative lack of quality. From what I can remember, the vast majority of bkcs and cbbs and etc (not m dragons or pockets, but obvious) overwhelmingly wanted aegislash out of the tier, and their opinion is definitely one to be highly considered.

There is definitely a better solution (to this overstated problem) than to throw aegilsash into the tier. That might mean banning or soemthing else, idk, but both the concept of checking the tier with a sinlge mon and the lack of effectiveness of that implementation make me believe that Aegi should stay gone.

 

[Darkdevil]

Despite having completed the suspect, I am a bit confused on whether I'll vote ban on Aegislash or not. Aegislash is great both offensively and defensively, and is both a positive and a negative presence in the tier in my opinion.
Among the positives of unbanning Aegislash from Ubers there is definitely adding in the OU tier a great check or counter to Pokemon such as Mega-Metagross, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Slowbro, Latias and Latios and many more which otherwise are quite difficult do deal with in one slot but in my opinion it would also make the tier less competitive and annoying to play, since it forces too many 50/50s, like we had before the ban in XY. Aegislash would also be extremely influential changing standard sets, such as mega Lopunny, who will be forced to use moves such as Encore, Substitute and Drain Punch.
It'll change the face of the Pokemon that roam in OU, for example Bisharp, Mandibuzz, Zapdos and anyother bulky Pokemon will definitely be more common. Another trait about Aegislash is the fact that it is unpredictable since it can use many sets effectively such as Sub Toxic, threatening to more conservative answers, the Naive set with Life Orb is to wallbreak, Swords Dance, and others meaning that checking it is as hard as it is to check Pokemon such as Metagross who roam around nowadays, which definitely isn't a big improvement over the current situation.
In the end i believe that the cons easily upward the pros of having Aegislash in the tier. Aegislash for sure does alleviate the pressure on teambuilders in checking a lot of problematic threats but I feel like it isn't too useful if aegislash is such a big menace itself and equally hard to check so I think I will vote ban.

 

[DarkChocolateGamer]

I'm feeling a little bit mixed feeling about this. At one point this can help take care of certain threats but on the other hand he can be really annoying.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

Knock Off is a powerful coverage move that is used as coverage..... aegi switches in on a resisted move (drain punch, ice punch, whatever), then gets bopped by knock off - it doesnt have to be on the switch, due to its low speed.

252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Shield Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 70-86 (25.2 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

If Aegi's taken damage, then hell yeah I'm gonna bring Gallade in to revenge its ass. (not to kill it from 100% health)

All I'm seeing from those calcs is that you have no business even using gallade to KO aegislash. It can switch into gallade once, and the next time it has to be preservative or it's dead. If aegi shadow sneaks and gallade lives, then the scenario also plays out that aegi can be hit by knock off on blade form.

-2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 220-260 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If aegislash didn't have KS at all, it's still a win in a 1v1 situation regardless, which gallade should never be in.

Why would scizor use pursuit? Please tell me you're kidding me. Pursuit is the only form of trapping Aegi, so yeah, banded Scizor would use pursuit, like against Gengar, etc. Bullet punch I don't know where you got it from, but pursuit is valid - it was showing that with KS (which I consider a bordeline broken move) the 50/50 is significantly in Aegi's favor, as it can stay in, reduce Scizor's attack, stay in and massacre it, or switch out. Scizor loses in this situation.

Aegislash is switching into scizor to check it. Why would aegislash be pursuit trapped by scizor when it's a scizor answer and pursuit doesn't even do much should aegislash switch out.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit (on switch) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 152-180 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hence the 50/50 argument.

Elaborate more how this is different from coming in, forcing something out, and hitting the switch hard from any other pokemon. No, gallade isn't staying in on aegislash to knock off, KS is practically irrelevant to that scenario when aegi can instead live the second knock off anyway and shadow ball. Lopunny is the only scenario I can legitmately come up with, but even protect stalling heatran can surprise lopunny with the 50/50 protect for HJK or fake out.

I'm not talking about choiced Knock Off. I'm talking about a protect with a triple benefit of increasing it's defenses, reducing attack on contact moves, and scouting the choiced attack. Scizor bluffing pursuit and U-turning is a good example. Aegi is not switching into the Choiced move, that's the whole point. It's scouting what's going to be used to revenge it, and its switching/attacking, thus making Choice users more of a liability.

Again, pursuit scizor shouldn't be pursuit trapping aegislash in a normal scenario, and Ks on u-turn is pretty pointless other than for scouting since regardless of -2 it does nothing to aegi. If aegi knows your move, then it can react, however the same case scenario would be scouting with protect with any pokemon. Say scizor has superpower for heatran, heatran can protect and see that move knowing staying in is a liability. If he knows he's u-turning (like aegislash in this case) he can go for a setup move (rocks) status move (toxic) or hit the switch.

I'm not seeing anything convincing in your 50/50 argument that would realistically apply in practice. Moves players wouldn't actually atempt to use on aegislash, like nonsub gallade coming in as a revenge killer, or scizor as a pursuit trapper when aegislash is a scizor check and has no reason to switch. What I'm seeing is more or less randomly given scenarios that never actually happened or should happen from the aegislash opponent side when handling with him. If players are actually using scizor to pursuit trap aegislash, then they clearly do not know how to work around him or handle him yet, which is only to be expected in an undeveloped suspect ladder.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Heatran isn't just A+ for its bulk. Flash Fire is a big advantage, as it allows Heatran to switch into any fire move (including Will-O-Wisp) and get an immediate boost. Heatran also has access to Lava Plume, which gives it the ability to do decent damage while spreading burns. It can also use Stealth Rock (which you acknowledged), removing the need to carry some other Stealth Rock user on the team. Heatran also retains its bulk after attacking (Aegislash has to use King's Shield, which can be setup fodder, especially on a defensive set.) Finally, Heatran can use Roar (which you also acknowledged) to phaze setup sweepers. Heatran is A+ because it can simultaneously tank attacks and provide a lot of team support. Defensive Aegislash is walled very easily, and doesn't support the team at all (aside from being able to take hits from some attackers).

As far as that comparison goes, I was speaking strictly from a 'defensive' standpoint (taking hits consistently throughout the match), so I acknowledge that there are limitations in the comparison (also, I wasn't using a 'defensive' aegislash for calcs, I was more referring to 252HP/4Atk/252SAtk Aegislash). If we're extending it past defensive ability, Aegislash has an edge on Heatran in terms of a non-passive Protect (which does make a difference, if your opponent goes for the wrong move they are at -2 attack, giving Aegislash player an advantage), more spammable+powerful STAB (unless fishing for burns), and checking more things with one set. Heatran does fulfill a different role than Aegislash, however a defensive Heatran fails to exert as much offensive pressure as 252HP/252SpAtk Aegislash, while Aegislash isn't all that far behind Heatran in terms of damage taken.

I've seen a few posts mentioning SubToxic Aegislash against Mandibuzz, and I thought I'd address it.

Does anyone have any replays where SubToxic Aegislash is actually useful? I've seen many Aegislashes in battle, and I've never once seen a SubToxic set. In fact, the only time I hear about SubToxic Aegislash is when people are arguing that Mandibuzz isn't a "true counter". Based on theorymon, it seems like a SubToxic set would be setup fodder for a whole bunch of things (Mega Scizor, SubDD Gyarados, etc.)

From my understanding, SubToxic Aegislash works to surprise its usual answers (Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Bulky pokemon sans status healing) because it isn't as commonly used or immediately appealing to some. It does break Sub-DD gyarados's substitute even uninvested, and can discourage the use of Waterfall with KS (ie: a lot of guessing games to be had) but has to watch out for waterfall. Scizor also fails to do notable damage without Knock Off, and is also at risk of KS attack drops (its going to be a long drawn out set of turns if scizor doesn't have Knock off).

You say that Aegislash is unique in that it can apply both "offensive pressure" and "defensive pressure". First, I'd like to note that it has a lot of trouble doing both at once -- the Life Orb set wears itself down very quickly, while the Swords Dance set has very limited coverage. Moreover, the "offensive pressure" that you mention isn't as powerful as many other OU threats, and every offensive Aegislash has a set of a few Pokemon that pretty much wall it completely. (It's also fairly easy to revenge-kill -- a neutral Shadow Sneak doesn't do that much damage even with Life Orb.)

Aegislash can exert both defensive and offensive pressure simultaneously in shield form, because it will take the hit in shield form (defense) and then retaliate in blade form (offense). The LO set is used to maximize offensive pressure, so it is focus ed on maximizing Aegislash's offensive potential and using whatever natural defenses Aegislash has to switch in if necessary. SD is (from my understanding) regarded as one of Aegislash's worse sets, and Ghost doesn't really get good physical coverage so you won't likely see that (although mixed is viable). Also, similar to the Heatran example, none of those offensive threats have access (at any point) to the defensive ability that Aegislash-Shield has, which is default on switching in. Revenging Aegislash-Blade is fine, but almost anything can be revenge killed, and Aegislash-Shield is notoriously difficult to outright kill and can mess up a lot of physical revengers with KS. Special revengers without STAB Fire, Ghost, or Dark-type moves will not likely KO a healthy Aegislash-Shield. For more on KS, please refer to WebBowser's post on page 27 (or the whereabouts) because he explained KS better than I could.

On a side note, a consequence of the relative ease with which Aegislash can switch between Shield and Sword form gives it something akin to a reusable multiscale (credit to WebBowser pointing this out); when still in tact (Shield form Aegislash vs Multiscale Dragonite), the pokemon in question has the potential for absurd "pseudostats", but once broken it returns to being a normal pokemon. It falls apart once you consider that without Multiscale Dragonite has reasonable defenses, but Aegislash has the ridiculous+spammable offense to make use of taking a hit.

To address the first part, I still assert that Aegislash isn't broken, so there's that. Yes, it forms a good core with some offensive threats (Lopunny in particular), but its effect isn't nearly as large as people make it seem. In my opinion, there isn't any threat that is fine without Aegislash, but becomes broken when Aegislash is introduced. (And if there is such a threat, it should be banned and not Aegislash.)

Aegislash will probably be a top-tier pokemon if it gets reintroduced, but it's not as potent as people think.

I will still assert that Aegislash is (at best) unhealthy for the tier, because it has the capacity to combine some of the best defensive qualities and very good offensive ones in a very low risk/opportunity cost high reward way. It has enough unpredictability/versatility that people have to think twice about their Aegislash check getting crippled/KO-ed by a different set/coverage when they go to switch it in, resulting in stacking Aegislash checks, and offensive Aegislash sets isn't very easy to scout because of the power behind its moves. The threats in the current metagame may not become broken, but Aegislash does handily deal with a lot of pokemon they have issues with. SubCM Keldeo, for instance, has trouble dealing with Latis, Venusaur, Thundurus, and Talonflame. Aegislash can reliably come in on Lati@s, Starmie, Slowbro, Venusaur to some extent, and if healthy can check non-NP Thundurus. Granted, it cannot handle all of these threats simultaneously, but it does reliably deal with the first 4 Keldeo checks in one team slot, and can check the 5th. This isn't making the top-tier threats more manageable, its making preparing for them more difficult to deal with by adding another powerful/bulky attacker that works well alongside them. That could be considered support, but that comes as a consequence of good offensive/defensive presence.

 

[MeteorMiss]

Aegislash can exert both defensive and offensive pressure simultaneously in shield form, because it will take the hit in shield form (defense) and then retaliate in blade form (offense). The LO set is used to maximize offensive pressure, so it is focus ed on maximizing Aegislash's offensive potential and using whatever natural defenses Aegislash has to switch in if necessary. SD is (from my understanding) regarded as one of Aegislash's worse sets, and Ghost doesn't really get good physical coverage so you won't likely see that (although mixed is viable). Also, similar to the Heatran example, none of those offensive threats have access (at any point) to the defensive ability that Aegislash-Shield has, which is default on switching in. Revenging Aegislash-Blade is fine, but almost anything can be revenge killed, and Aegislash-Shield is notoriously difficult to outright kill and can mess up a lot of physical revengers with KS. Special revengers without STAB Fire, Ghost, or Dark-type moves will not likely KO a healthy Aegislash-Shield. For more on KS, please refer to WebBowser's post on page 27 (or the whereabouts) because he explained KS better than I could.

On a side note, a consequence of the relative ease with which Aegislash can switch between Shield and Sword form gives it something akin to a reusable multiscale (credit to WebBowser pointing this out); when still in tact (Shield form Aegislash vs Multiscale Dragonite), the pokemon in question has the potential for absurd "pseudostats", but once broken it returns to being a normal pokemon. It falls apart once you consider that without Multiscale Dragonite has reasonable defenses, but Aegislash has the ridiculous+spammable offense to make use of taking a hit.

This is an interesting comparison, but it's a bit flawed. I acknowledge the point that you're making (that Aegislash can take a hit with very good defense, and retaliate with very good offense). We should note, though, that Aegislash-Blade is much more frail than Dragonite -- it will die to any reasonably-powerful neutral attack. This means that after attacking, the Aegislash user has to either use King's Shield, switch out (both of these give the opponent a free turn to set up or heal), or attack to predict a setup (and risk itself in the process). The problem with King's Shield is that it's very easy to take advantage of. In order to switch from "applying offensive pressure" to "applying defensive pressure", Aegislash has to give the user a free turn, which is a bit drawback.

I will still assert that Aegislash is (at best) unhealthy for the tier, because it has the capacity to combine some of the best defensive qualities and very good offensive ones in a very low risk/opportunity cost high reward way. It has enough unpredictability/versatility that people have to think twice about their Aegislash check getting crippled/KO-ed by a different set/coverage when they go to switch it in, resulting in stacking Aegislash checks, and offensive Aegislash sets isn't very easy to scout because of the power behind its moves. The threats in the current metagame may not become broken, but Aegislash does handily deal with a lot of pokemon they have issues with. SubCM Keldeo, for instance, has trouble dealing with Latis, Venusaur, Thundurus, and Talonflame. Aegislash can reliably come in on Lati@s, Starmie, Slowbro, Venusaur to some extent, and if healthy can check non-NP Thundurus. Granted, it cannot handle all of these threats simultaneously, but it does reliably deal with the first 4 Keldeo checks in one team slot, and can check the 5th. This isn't making the top-tier threats more manageable, its making preparing for them more difficult to deal with by adding another powerful/bulky attacker that works well alongside them. That could be considered support, but that comes as a consequence of good offensive/defensive presence.

This all sounds good in theory, but (as far as I've seen) it doesn't work nearly as well in practice. What you call "stacking Aegislash checks" isn't really as big an issue as it seems, because there are quite a few Aegislash checks that are already prominent in the metagame. From what I saw on the suspect ladder, if your "dedicated check" dies for some reason, something else on your team will be able to handle Aegislash without a big problem.

Again (and this applies to anyone reading this, not just the person I'm quoting), do you have replays of Aegislash being as impactful as you're saying it is?

SIDENOTE: If it's feasible, I would be interested to see a survey. Of all the users who got reqs (and didn't use Aegislash on their teams), how many people used previously-existing teams for the suspect test, as compared to people who had t create a new team?

I ask this because I got reqs with a team that I had from before the test. If this is also true for other users, it might be an indication that Aegislash does not need to be specifically accounted for while teambuilding.

edit: formatting

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I'm feeling a little bit mixed feeling about this. At one point this can help take care of certain threats but on the other hand he can be really annoying.

This isn't exactly directed at you, it's more so of an open statement. But honestly, of the mons Aegi was supposed to be putting in check, none of them really are. Turns out, all those Pokemon just had to drop a move and call it covered, it's honestly only a little more than a mild inconvenience for those Pokemon. So, MegaGross has to run EQ, mAlt does too, oh no. . . Poor still 100% viable megas. . . Now, I know what you're thinking, "if that's the case, why aren't they seen more often?" In which case, I'm glad you asked. . . The reason is quite simple, mLop has taken the place of pretty much all the other megas. Why though? Because it's simply the easiest way to beat Aegislash. The tier has pretty much become Aegi to blanket check the meta + mLop to beat opposing Aegislash + Lando/Keld because they're nice and balanced. So, now we have to ask ourselves, is this something we want for the tier? People already complain about how stale the meta is, but when your team is pretty much decided for you, there's a problem. I've gotten tired of this meta nearly 5 times over, and it's simply because damn near every team is doing what it's nearly forced to do.

The meta doesn't adapt to Aegislash. . . It conforms. That shit isn't healthy.

 

[MeteorMiss]

This isn't exactly directed at you, it's more so of an open statement. But honestly, of the mons Aegi was supposed to be putting in check, none of them really are. Turns out, all those Pokemon just had to drop a move and call it covered, it's honestly only a little more than a mild inconvenience for those Pokemon. So, MegaGross has to run EQ, mAlt does too, oh no. . . Poor still 100% viable megas. . . Now, I know what you're thinking, "if that's the case, why aren't they seen more often?" In which case, I'm glad you asked. . . The reason is quite simple, mLop has taken the place of pretty much all the other megas. Why though? Because it's simply the easiest way to beat Aegislash. The tier has pretty much become Aegi to blanket check the meta + mLop to beat opposing Aegislash + Lando/Keld because they're nice and balanced. So, now we have to ask ourselves, is this something we want for the tier? People already complain about how stale the meta is, but when your team is pretty much decided for you, there's a problem. I've gotten tired of this meta nearly 5 times over, and it's simply because damn near every team is doing what it's nearly forced to do.

The meta doesn't adapt to Aegislash. . . It conforms. That shit isn't healthy.

We'll see when the usage stats come out at the end of the month, but it's not nearly as bleak as you're making it seem. This is evidenced by the fact that there are many teams which do not have Mega Lopunny, Aegislash, and Keldeo/Landorus.

I haven't heard people complaining about "how stale the metagame is". On the contrary, people have been complaining that there are too many different threats to account for -- making teambuilding an even bigger part of the challenge. I wouldn't say too much diversity is a problem, but if by unbanning something we can have a defense against the wide variety of threats, it's undoubtedly a step in the right direction.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I almost think this test needs a little extra time. It's hard to tell how a metagame will settle once changes this major are made, but right now the metagame is pretty underwhelming even though I don't honestly believe that Aegislash on its own is too good for OU. The whole purpose of changes like this are to improve the metagame, so if the resulting meta we have from unbanning Aegislash is on the whole worse, then there is no reason to un-ban Aegislash.

With more time creativity would bring the diversity of the metagame to a reasonable level and would likely give us a better idea of what to expect from an Aegislash ORAS metagame. Right now, it's mostly just a reactive meta that is playing up the utility of Aegislash as a blanket check for many once common threats and many teams haven't fully adjusted to the new landscape. Anyway, just my two cents. Honestly could go either way with this one.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

This is an interesting comparison, but it's a bit flawed. I acknowledge the point that you're making (that Aegislash can take a hit with very good defense, and retaliate with very good offense). We should note, though, that Aegislash-Blade is much more frail than Dragonite -- it will die to any reasonably-powerful neutral attack. This means that after attacking, the Aegislash user has to either use King's Shield, switch out (both of these give the opponent a free turn to set up or heal), or attack to predict a setup (and risk itself in the process). The problem with King's Shield is that it's very easy to take advantage of. In order to switch from "applying offensive pressure" to "applying defensive pressure", Aegislash has to give the user a free turn, which is a bit drawback.

I do mention defenses, although I probably should have made Aegislash-Sword's bad defenses explicit. To mention KS, Aegislash has as much to lose with KS as almost any pokemon who relies on Protect-esque moves (get set up on, hazards). However, unlike those other pokemon who just avoid being hit, Aegislash can halve an opponents attack and gets back on its 150/150 defenses, with the risk of giving the opponent a free turn. Granted, being in sword mode gives Aegislash less options, but if you're coming to revenge kill it then it likely just killed something your Aegislash check. The situation you described is true for any frail pokemon about too be revenge killed, the difference is that KS aegislash has the ability to stay in, and predicting if its going to KS or attack or switch or whatever else entails a fair amount of risk (putting this under hide tag because its going to be long)

Hide

So, Your pokemon is now in against Aegislash blade. The possible outcomes are: Attack as it KS's, Set up hazards as it KS's, Set up as it KS's, Attack as it attacks, Set up hazards as it attacks, and Set up as it attacks.

If you attack as it KS's, then you're back to facing an Aegislash in shield mode, and hopefully your pokemon is Bisharp or is attacking with a special attack/earthquake because if it isn't/didn't its at -2 attack against Aegislash shield, which gives Aegislash the possibility to soak up another attack and hit your revenge-er hard. If your pokemon is revealed to be choiced, Aegislash now has the advantage of knowing your move, and you're stuck in a completely different sticky situation in which more guesses predictions need to be made. And if you attacked with a non-contact move, then at the very least Aegislash is back in shield mode. Aegislash loses nothing in this situation, and has a potential to cripple your attacker, so this is advantageous for Aegislash. Aegislash wins

If you decide to do some support move as it KS's (stealth rocks), then its kind of a neutral tradeoff because you do get hazards but at the same time Aegislash is safely in shield mode. However, now you have the advantage of not having to worry about KS a second time, but Aegislash is back in shield mode so it may be able to soak up a hit if your SR setter isn't that powerful. You sort of win

Setting up as Aegislash KS's is the best situation to find yourself in, because you now have the upper hand and can threaten shield form Aegislash with your boosted attack or from behind a substitute without risk of KS attack drop. You win

If you attack while Aegislash attacks, then you win this one. You win

If you go to set up hazards as it attacks you, then you're in a somewhat precarious situation as you likely took a nice amount of damage (possibly shadow sneak KO range), and Aegislash has not yet been dealt with. You're back at square one, but this time the risk entailed is much larger since your check likely took a sizeable bit of damage from that last attack. I'd say Aegislash wins this situation. Aegislash Wins

If you set up while it attacks, then you likely you took a lot of damage right there, maybe enough to put you in shadow sneak KO range after stealth rocks. If you aren't, then you're back at square one with a weakened but more powerful setup pokemon, who now plays the same guessing game with Aegislash and risks being revenged itself now. I'd say Aegislash comes out on top in this situation. Aegislash sort of wins

This does all come down to predicting what your opponent is going to do (risk vs reward), based on how much it can handle your boosted setup sweeper or if there is anything left on your team for Aegislash to deal with, but getting caught in an untimely KS or getting smacked by Shadow ball when you thought it would KS is still a reasonable possibility, so facing down Aegislash blade isn't as nice as you make it out to be.

 

[SketchUp]

We'll see when the usage stats come out at the end of the month, but it's not nearly as bleak as you're making it seem. This is evidenced by the fact that there are many teams which do not have Mega Lopunny, Aegislash, and Keldeo/Lanorus.

I haven't heard people complaining about "how stale the metagame is". On the contrary, people have been complaining that there are too many different threats to account for -- making teambuilding an even bigger part of the challenge. I wouldn't say too much diversity is a problem, but if by unbanning something we can have a defense against the wide variety of threats, it's undoubtedly a step in the right direction.

Aegislash isn't a step in the right direction. Teambuilding will only be a little bit easier if you use Aegislash and without Aegislash in your team the hell only becomes bigger. Aegislash itself is already pretty difficult to prepare for but it is manageable. Not using Aegislash only gives you another threat to prepare for, but that is not the only problem. I made a post about it before and I'm Rick Astley also pointed this out yesterday:

People initially thought that this was the case because it reduces the number of threats, but I for one did not consider the possibility that it also dramatically limits the responses to those threats.

Albacore said this before in two earlier points mentioning two big threats being Landorus and Lopunny. Aegislash will make these pokemon so much better that they are both almost unbeatable when paired up with Aegislash. Of course you can argue that unbanning Aegislash + banning Landorus and some other stuff will fix this problem but Aegislash will always centralize the metagame to an unhealthy degree; even without stuff like Lopunny and Landorus around its influence on the metagame is very bad.

 

[Mia [old]]

Maybe I arrived at this discussion a bit late, but can someone quantify what it means to be a "blanket check" please? Note that I have no intent to squabble over semantics, I simply wish to sincerely understand what this phrase means and how so many people have arrived at this conclusion. I suspect that this phrase is a cause of wide discrepancies of opinion given that it was never clearly defined within the scope of the discussion.

 

[freekhoorn]

I

once you put a solid argument to back up your claims, i will extend this, with other 50/50s: in addition to the obvious tyranitar scarf crunch+pursuit against something slower or bisharp's (or anyone's) sucker punch+pursuit combo is a 50/50 for any dark-weak mon unlucky enough to be on the field, there are others.

Consider this: in-KO-range-of-X-move (insert pokemon with priority move and either reliable recovery or a strong stab move, let's say a weakened to about 35% health scizor) in the front of a mon with that X move and more speed but who gets eliminated by the priority move (let's say mamoswine with EQ). (insert boosting sweeper here in late game (charizardX for example)) vs a mon who can both get KOed by his attacks and KO it(let's say excadrill). if that are not 50/50s, i do not know what they are. adn it IS possible to win the "50/50" the majority of the time by simply considering what is more dangerous to you.

In aegislash's case, let the booster a chance to boost and sweep or give it a chance to kill you is the guess, if the aegi team still has a counter/check for the booster, it will likely use KS, if it has lost it already, it will NEVER let it boost for free.

second, you even readed my post? IT IS NEVER A COINFLIP. The aegi player, if he is worth his salt, will NOT use randomly KS, nor it will use it repeteadly (in which case then IS a 50/50 due to the repeated use=exponential accuracy drop of any protect clones) unless he has no other option

I am active on the battlespot subforum, but want to put in my opinion on aegislash cause i use it myself and i have a lot of experience with playing with and against him, and agree that a coinflip is not a good description of the situation when playing against aegislash. Your opponent isnt a coin, its a human and one of the two choices, kings shield or the other one is always the best so you need to consider what risks and rewards you and your opponent have in each different possible outcome. A thing you can do is use a boosting move against aegislash until it uses kings shield than after that attack. Or you can status it cause status moves go through kings shield, confusion is a real pain for aegislash cause if he hits himself in blade mode its hp is lowered a lot. Or you can use taunt/encore to ensure aegislash cant kings shield anymore or just use hard-hitting special moves or earthquake.

In my opinion aegislash is one of the more predictable mons and does not bring coinflip 50/50 situations after all.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Maybe I arrived at this discussion a bit late, but can someone quantify what it means to be a "blanket check" please? Note that I have no intent to squabble over semantics, I simply wish to sincerely understand what this phrase means and how so many people have arrived at this conclusion. I suspect that this phrase is a cause of wide discrepancies of opinion given that it was never clearly defined within the scope of the discussion.

It's a title given to a Pokemon that has the ability to check a significant portion of dangerous would be threats. Things like Lando-T, rotom-w, Aegislash, Heatran, and other similar Pokemon often aren't the best option for checking certain Pokemon, but they check such a large number of Pokemon that it becomes a really important glue for a lot of teams.

 

[Alfalfa]

I


I am active on the battlespot subforum, but want to put in my opinion on aegislash cause i use it myself and i have a lot of experience with playing with and against him, and agree that a coinflip is not a good description of the situation when playing against aegislash. Your opponent isnt a coin, its a human and one of the two choices, kings shield or the other one is always the best so you need to consider what risks and rewards you and your opponent have in each different possible outcome. A thing you can do is use a boosting move against aegislash until it uses kings shield than after that attack. Or you can status it cause status moves go through kings shield, confusion is a real pain for aegislash cause if he hits himself in blade mode its hp is lowered a lot. Or you can use taunt/encore to ensure aegislash cant kings shield anymore or just use hard-hitting special moves or earthquake.

In my opinion aegislash is one of the more predictable mons and does not bring coinflip 50/50 situations after all.

Aegislash does not necessarily need King's Shield though. Life Orb variants of Aegislash are still perfectly viable, and while losing the ability to freely go back to Shield forme is a bit of a hinderance, it still is annoying to switch into, and breaks defensive checks in a more aggressive manner than SubToxic.

 

[MeteorMiss]

So, Your pokemon is now in against Aegislash blade. The possible outcomes are: Attack as it KS's, Set up hazards as it KS's, Set up as it KS's, Attack as it attacks, Set up hazards as it attacks, and Set up as it attacks.

Situation 1. If you attack as it KS's,
...
...so this is advantageous for Aegislash. Aegislash wins
___
Situation 2. If you decide to do some support move as it KS's (stealth rocks),
...
You sort of win
___
Situation 3. Setting up as Aegislash KS's is the best situation to find yourself in,
...
You win
___
Situation 4. If you attack while Aegislash attacks, then you win this one. You win
___
Situation 5. If you go to set up hazards as it attacks you,
...
...I'd say Aegislash wins this situation. Aegislash Wins
___
Situation 6. If you set up while it attacks,
...
...I'd say Aegislash comes out on top in this situation. Aegislash sort of wins
This does all come down to predicting what your opponent is going to do (risk vs reward), based on how much it can handle your boosted setup sweeper or if there is anything left on your team for Aegislash to deal with, but getting caught in an untimely KS or getting smacked by Shadow ball when you thought it would KS is still a reasonable possibility, so facing down Aegislash blade isn't as nice as you make it out to be.

(the numbering was not part of the original quote)

As before, I sort of agree with you. However, I'd like to point out that the outcomes of "winning" each matchup aren't all equal.

Situation 1: Aegislash does "win" in that it is better off than it the start of the scenario. However, there are many things that could still allow the opponent to win the matchup. For example, if the opponent used a non-contact SE move (e.g. Earthquake, Lava Plume), he can just use it again, and probably win the matchup if he's able to take another hit.

Situation 2: Your assessment was fine here. I'd like to add that healing off damage might also be classed as a "support move" in this context, and it would allow the opponent to take less damage from Aegislash's next attack.

Situation 3: As you mentioned, the opponent wins the matchup in this situation. Note, though, that the setup is more important than just Aegislash -- the opponent might be able to sweep the rest of the team. (Admittedly, this depends on a lot of different things and isn't guaranteed.)

Situation 4: I agree with your assessment. Again, though, the result here shouldn't be underestimated -- with Aegislash dead, you might have a much easier time the rest of the game.

Situation 5: I agree that Aegislash gets the upper hand here. However, you did get your hazards up, and most hazard-setters can take a hit or two. Compared to the opponent killing Aegislash or getting a free setup turn, this is a relatively small victory for the Aegislash user.

Situation 6: Not necessarily. This depends on the sweeper, but if it can survive the attack, it will have its boosts and might be able to take out Aegislash after the attack. Also, for some sweepers (e.g. Calm Mind Clefable), the process of setting up also allows them to take hits better.

 

[Mia [old]]

It's a title given to a Pokemon that has the ability to check a significant portion of dangerous would be threats. Things like Lando-T, rotom-w, Aegislash, Heatran, and other similar Pokemon often aren't the best option for checking certain Pokemon, but they check such a large number of Pokemon that it becomes a really important glue for a lot of teams.

I know this sounds ignorant, but why is this problematic? Don't we already have many alternatives that fit this description?

I have been reading through this discussion from the beginning, and there seems to be no unique characteristic that clearly makes Aegislash ban-worthy. These include:

- being a blanket check
- causing too many 50/50s
- centralizing the metagame
- being too adept in a given offensive/defensive/support role

I have no stance on this debate personally. That said, it is clear that no one characteristic for Aegislash is going to classify it as definitively out of competitive play. However, if it is simply too potent at all of the above, why not just acknowledge it as such in the name of intellectual honestly? I see no err in candidly removing something on this basis, and it is certainly better than recycling dated and inneffective semantics arguments.

 

[Synchronation]

The thread and discussions were so nice and now we are back at the 50/50 arguments...

So, Your pokemon is now in against Aegislash blade. The possible outcomes are: Attack as it KS's, Set up hazards as it KS's, Set up as it KS's, Attack as it attacks, Set up hazards as it attacks, and Set up as it attacks.

If you attack as it KS's, then you're back to facing an Aegislash in shield mode, and hopefully your pokemon is Bisharp or is attacking with a special attack/earthquake because if it isn't/didn't its at -2 attack against Aegislash shield, which gives Aegislash the possibility to soak up another attack and hit your revenge-er hard. If your pokemon is revealed to be choiced, Aegislash now has the advantage of knowing your move, and you're stuck in a completely different sticky situation in which more guesses predictions need to be made. And if you attacked with a non-contact move, then at the very least Aegislash is back in shield mode. Aegislash loses nothing in this situation, and has a potential to cripple your attacker, so this is advantageous for Aegislash. Aegislash wins

If you decide to do some support move as it KS's (stealth rocks), then its kind of a neutral tradeoff because you do get hazards but at the same time Aegislash is safely in shield mode. However, now you have the advantage of not having to worry about KS a second time, but Aegislash is back in shield mode so it may be able to soak up a hit if your SR setter isn't that powerful. You sort of win

Setting up as Aegislash KS's is the best situation to find yourself in, because you now have the upper hand and can threaten shield form Aegislash with your boosted attack or from behind a substitute without risk of KS attack drop. You win

If you attack while Aegislash attacks, then you win this one. You win

If you go to set up hazards as it attacks you, then you're in a somewhat precarious situation as you likely took a nice amount of damage (possibly shadow sneak KO range), and Aegislash has not yet been dealt with. You're back at square one, but this time the risk entailed is much larger since your check likely took a sizeable bit of damage from that last attack. I'd say Aegislash wins this situation. Aegislash Wins

If you set up while it attacks, then you likely you took a lot of damage right there, maybe enough to put you in shadow sneak KO range after stealth rocks. If you aren't, then you're back at square one with a weakened but more powerful setup pokemon, who now plays the same guessing game with Aegislash and risks being revenged itself now. I'd say Aegislash comes out on top in this situation. Aegislash sort of wins

This does all come down to predicting what your opponent is going to do (risk vs reward), based on how much it can handle your boosted setup sweeper or if there is anything left on your team for Aegislash to deal with, but getting caught in an untimely KS or getting smacked by Shadow ball when you thought it would KS is still a reasonable possibility, so facing down Aegislash blade isn't as nice as you make it out to be.

How should I put it:
If your "revenge killer" is not able to kill the target reliably, then you are doing something wrong with revenge killing.
I don't send out my Gengar to revenge kill Latios because a Shadow ball could kill it if I win the speed tie. If your physical attacker (without Earthquake) cannot kill Aegislash in its Shield-form then why the hell do you send it in?? The only situation in which you would do that is if you are cornered and have no other choice, but then you got outplayed anyways. If you want to revenge-kill Aegislash then send something in that actually threatens it without getting in such a stupid situation.
Your example could be used to ANY kind of prediction that you need to make in the game.
Landorus-T is facing a Heatran.
Do you Stealth Rock expecting a switch, risking to eat a Lava Plume and a potential burn? Or do you play safe and Earthquake? Or do you U-Turn out, giving him the chance to get Stealth Rocks up?

While King's Shield can be a 50/50 in a 1vs1 situation, it is almost never the case in practice since you have to think about the risk and reward like in every other prediction-mindgame.

I hope we can now move on to more important things.

 

[Immortal]

Now, about Aegislash.
I don't agree. It doesn't relieve much pressure out of your shoulders as builder. Sure you can slap Aegislash onto any team, basically it'll always do its work. Did I switch my Aegislash into DiancieM and MetagrossM ? Yes I did, and both times I ate an EQ/EarthPower and thought to myself "well, obviously, they're very ready for this".

It is forcing metagross and diance to run moves they would rather not run, meaning they missout on coverage for either aegislash or something else that gives them problems. The thing about diversity is that mega meta, mega diance and mega alt are so good that there isn't a ton of reason to run many other megas, because these things are all great and have very minimal drawbacks. If we can make these slightly less effective and less dominant then people will start using some other things as well, creating the overall diversity we are looking for. Somebody earlier mentioned that charizard y got better with aegislash. Great an A rank mon who is 4x weak to SR and has an unimpressive base 100 speed. Cool, he isn't as hard to check as some of the other top threats are now without aegislash.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

It is forcing metagross and diance to run moves they would rather not run, meaning they missout on coverage for either aegislash or something else that gives them problems. The thing about diversity is that mega meta, mega diance and mega alt are so good that there isn't a ton of reason to run many other megas, because these things are all great and have very minimal drawbacks. If we can make these slightly less effective and less dominant then people will start using some other things as well, creating the overall diversity we are looking for. Somebody earlier mentioned that charizard y got better with aegislash. Great an A rank mon who is 4x weak to SR and has an unimpressive base 100 speed. Cool, he isn't as hard to check as some of the other top threats are now without aegislash.

I agree with everything you say, but I wouldn't say diancie or altaria is being forced to run suboptimal coverage for aegislash. Diancie normally carries earth power for heatran, and altaria enjoys roasting ferrothorn and skarmory too with fire blast, or EQ for heatran and metagross specifically. Metagross hits heatran harder with EQ than hammer arm without a speed drop, but it was never the preference until aegi was reintroduced due to the few things hammer arm allows him to bypass (skarm, ferrothorn).

Hence why overcentralization I do not believe describes aegislash when the metagame is already centralized around specific threats.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I know this sounds ignorant, but why is this problematic? Don't we already have many alternatives that fit this description?

I have been reading through this discussion from the beginning, and there seems to be no unique characteristic that clearly makes Aegislash ban-worthy. These include:

- being a blanket check
- causing too many 50/50s
- centralizing the metagame
- being too adept in a given offensive/defensive/support role

I have no stance on this debate personally. That said, it is clear that no one characteristic for Aegislash is going to classify it as definitively out of competitive play. However, if it is simply too potent at all of the above, why not just acknowledge it as such in the name of intellectual honestly? I see no err in candidly removing something on this basis, and it is certainly better than recycling dated and inneffective semantics arguments.

I personally don't think Aegislash is overpowered, but the problem is that Aegislash is the BEST blanket check in the tier, forces something more akin to 60/40s, has insane diversity, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think it could be potentially healthy for the metagame, but Aegislash is incredibly powerful to the point that it puts all other blanket checks to shame.

 

[WebBowser]

The thread and discussions were so nice and now we are back at the 50/50 arguments...



How should I put it:
If your "revenge killer" is not able to kill the target reliably, then you are doing something wrong with revenge killing.
I don't send out my Gengar to revenge kill Latios because a Shadow ball could kill it if I win the speed tie. If your physical attacker (without Earthquake) cannot kill Aegislash in its Shield-form then why the hell do you send it in?? The only situation in which you would do that is if you are cornered and have no other choice, but then you got outplayed anyways. If you want to revenge-kill Aegislash then send something in that actually threatens it without getting in such a stupid situation.
Your example could be used to ANY kind of prediction that you need to make in the game.
Landorus-T is facing a Heatran.
Do you Stealth Rock expecting a switch, risking to eat a Lava Plume and a potential burn? Or do you play safe and Earthquake? Or do you U-Turn out, giving him the chance to get Stealth Rocks up?

While King's Shield can be a 50/50 in a 1vs1 situation, it is almost never the case in practice since you have to think about the risk and reward like in every other prediction-mindgame.

I hope we can now move on to more important things.

precisely how many EQs can kill aegis in shield form though?

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While he certainly isn't shrugging off these hits, he's certainly not dieing to them. It's actually really really hard to kill aegi in shield form.

Any mon you send out to kill aegislash should do so with the expectation of having to eat the shadow ball + shadow sneak combo in return (at a minimum. Ideally he should be able to stomach a subset of his coverage moves as well). Otherwise aegi will live, and you will die, which defeats the purpose of revenge killing.