Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Martin]

Uh I dont exactly care so much about the whole opportunity cost argument sort of stupid in terms of just the mon as a whole. Also lol yeah dragon dance mlatios is dumb not sure how this was ever considered a good idea. Im asking why would I use this over mega latias? I havent found a single situation where I go, oh I dont have a mega but I have latios so let me use mega latios when more than likely I went and said to myself "just gonna go with mega latias because its fat as hell in stats and because of the bulk can set up really easier and proceed to do damage after a cm or more."

Mega Latios' immediate power over m-latias/having Memento>Healing Wish is the main reason to use it, and it makes it fit better on more offensively-inclined playstyles with a focus on cleaning with a setup mon (due to Memento aiding setup) as opposed to those which focus on constant offensive pressure at the cost of cleaning capability.

 

[AM]

Mega Latios' immediate power over m-latias/having Memento>Healing Wish is the main reason to use it, and it makes it fit better on more offensively-inclined playstyles with a focus on cleaning with a setup mon (due to Memento aiding setup) as opposed to those which focus on constant offensive pressure at the cost of cleaning capability.

thats.... Not really enough of a reason to make me use that lol because the immediate power is established with life orb with only a slight bit of bulk that you take a step back and think man mega latias is really gonna have a much better time against the meta such as Landorus. But no seriously mega latias provides a lot of defensive traits that make it way more appealing and in not one instance have I found myself needing a mega latios.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Uh I dont exactly care so much about the whole opportunity cost argument sort of stupid in terms of just the mon as a whole. Also lol yeah dragon dance mlatios is dumb not sure how this was ever considered a good idea. Im asking why would I use this over mega latias? I havent found a single situation where I go, oh I dont have a mega but I have latios so let me use mega latios when more than likely I went and said to myself "just gonna go with mega latias because its fat as hell in stats and because of the bulk can set up really easier and proceed to do damage after a cm or more."

If it were just down to Mega Latios vs Mega Latias in one of those "I don't have anything else to do with this Mega slot, so lemme turn this Lati in to a Mega Lati" situations (which I assume is what you're talking about here), you'd use Mega Latios over Mega Latias for the same reasons you'd use regular Latios over regular Latias: more power. If you just want a standard Defog + 3 Attacks deal or something, Mega Latios gives you more power at the cost of bulk, especially on the physical side in case you want a little mixed action with Earthquake for Heatran or something. If your team benefits more from the bulk, though, you'd go with Mega Latias. As far as Calm Mind sets go, well, there's a reason that Calm Mind Latios is usually offensive and Calm Mind Mega Latias is usually a bulky variant. The extra immediate power does matter sometimes, and CM Mega Latios can do pretty much exactly what CM Life Orb Latios does with a little less power (which is less relevant when you're dropping +1/+2 Draco Meteors on stuff) but with more bulk and staying power. Which Mega Lati you pick in that situation really just depends on the team, but it ultimately comes down to the age-old debate of power vs bulk (although I will have to agree that Mega Latias's bulk is the most stand-out quality here).

It also comes down to a question of, "Are we seriously going to completely unrank what is essentially Latios 2.0 just because its uses are situational?", so there's that to consider.

EDIT: I mean, if we're being completely honest here, there has rarely if ever been a time where I wanted to use most of these lower tier Megas unless I just really wanted to build around one of them for the heck of it, but I'm also willing to admit that there might be some situations where their unique perks can be appealing to some players despite the fact that I've never "found myself needing" them on a team.

 

[Kurona]

My only problem with the "slap a mega stone on if you have Latios but no other mega" argument is that, while it's legitimate and possible... realistically, I don't see many situations where the team wouldn't just be improved by using LO Latios and using a different mega. I can't speak for CM M-Latios vs CM M-Latias, but on the merit of the situation I've described, that seems to be so incredibly rare and unlikely that it would go to D. It's possible, but I don't see it legitimately happening on a good team more than say Mega Absol or Dugtrio.

 

[AM]

If it were just down to Mega Latios vs Mega Latias in one of those "I don't have anything else to do with this Mega slot, so lemme turn this Lati in to a Mega Lati" situations (which I assume is what you're talking about here), you'd use Mega Latios over Mega Latias for the same reasons you'd use regular Latios over regular Latias: more power. If you just want a standard Defog + 3 Attacks deal or something, Mega Latios gives you more power at the cost of bulk, especially on the physical side in case you want a little mixed action with Earthquake for Heatran or something. If your team benefits more from the bulk, though, you'd go with Mega Latias. As far as Calm Mind sets go, well, there's a reason that Calm Mind Latios is usually offensive and Calm Mind Mega Latias is usually a bulky variant. The extra immediate power does matter sometimes, and CM Mega Latios can do pretty much exactly what CM Life Orb Latios does with a little less power (which is less relevant when you're dropping +1/+2 Draco Meteors on stuff) but with more bulk and staying power. Which Mega Lati you pick in that situation really just depends on the team, but it ultimately comes down to the age-old debate of power vs bulk (although I will have to agree that Mega Latias's bulk is the most stand-out quality here).

It also comes down to a question of, "Are we seriously going to completely unrank what is essentially Latios 2.0 just because its uses are situational?", so there's that to consider.

EDIT: I mean, if we're being completely honest here, there has rarely if ever been a time where I wanted to use most of these lower tier Megas unless I just really wanted to build around one of them for the heck of it, but I'm also willing to admit that there might be some situations where their unique perks can be appealing to some players despite the fact that I've never "found myself needing" them on a team.

most teams are gonna benefit much more from using mlatias than mlatios because of this bulk cause speaking from a cm perspective the power necessary for mlatias is quite easy to get. I neve implied unranked more so asking the legitimacy warranting mlatios, which would be fine in d btw. The lower tier megas have at the very least much more definitve traits other than just being another slightly different variant with not a whole lot of traits that would warrant a team slot over its regular counterpart. This is really what Im getting at honestly.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Well like I said, I'm fine with it dropping it to D Rank because its situational uses and minor perks are so heavily unbalanced by the opportunity cost of being a Mega. My thing is just keeping it from being unranked altogether, which was an argument directed less at you and more at the few users over the last couple of pages that have suggested dropping Mega Latios from the list altogether. That's where I personally draw the line.

EDIT: Also, can someone please justify Magneton in C+ Rank for me? Because I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The problem is that CM sets are outclassed by Mega Latias due to better bulk. So the only reason to use Mega Latios is sadly the DD set because of that 130 base Atk and 110 Speed. Yes even with that better speed Mega Altaria is still a million times better but that's why it's in S rank. I could make all my teams with exclusively S and A rank pokemon and deem everything else unviable because the higher ranked pokemon are better, but they still have to be ranked regardless. So in that aspect I also think that it's dumb just to unrank a perfectly good mon because there's pokemon that outclass it.

 

[Kurona]

The problem is that CM sets are outclassed by Mega Latias due to better bulk. So the only reason to use Mega Latios is sadly the DD set because of that 130 base Atk and 110 Speed. Yes even with that better speed Mega Altaria is still a million times better but that's why it's in S rank. I could make all my teams with exclusively S and A rank pokemon and deem everything else unviable because the higher ranked pokemon are better, but they still have to be ranked regardless. So in that aspect I also think that it's dumb just to unrank a perfectly good mon because there's pokemon that outclass it.

If a Pokémon is outclassed almost completely at a certain role, what's the point in ranking it? Jolteon is completely outclassed by M-Manectric and Raikou, hence we don't rank it. Florges is outclassed by Sylveon and to an extent Clefable, hence we don't rank it.
I'm not going to say we should unrank M-Latios - just look at AM and Agent Gibbs' posts for the reasons we shouldn't - but ranking it on a DD set which is completely outclassed is very silly. It's a relatively mediocre attack stat without an ability to boost it, it's a meh physical STAB combination (as opposed to Charx's excellent Dragon/Fire), and at the end of the day the only real reason you'd use it for a D-Dancer would be to outspeed very, very few +1 threats between Charx's 100 and M-Latios' 110. DD sets are not good, simple as that.

 

[bludz]

Yeah I agree Magneton needs to drop. C or C- IMO. I mean the little extra speed allowing it to check Talonflame etc with a Choice Scarf doesn't make up for the considerable loss of bulk and the slight loss in power is actually pretty noticeable. Being Leech Seed stalled by Ferrothorn is not an ideal situation for something that's supposed to win.

I also believe Infernape should rise again. It is actually capable of running multiple sets which are not outclassed and are simply more effective in general than the majority of C+.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Honestly i think that Haxorus should be dropped to unranked. This thing really has nothing going for it aside from moldbreaker. Sure its got huge attack but its outclassed by a large margin as a dd user. Hell mega gyarados outclasses this thing as a dd user due to having more bulk, better coverage overall and also has moldbreaker. Not to mention it has a really bad movepool. Ive actualy used hax a bunch and honestly id rather use any other sd or dd user then it. Hes pretty much lost his touch. Not to mention thats only one dd user. We have malt, zard-x, Even non mega gyara. Hes simply lost his niche as a wallbreaker. Not to mention he can really only run one set and all of them pretty much run the same thing becuase his move pool is that shallow. so again.

Haxorus D ---> unranked

Also i support on infernape moving up. Good Coverage and typing combined with the ability to go mixed access to rocks and a pretty decent defensive set. Its not even outclassed becuase its not only the only mon with that type aside from emboar but its got a ton of versitility and its more effective then several mons in c+.

Also minor question. Why IS cloyster ranked? Its really outclassed as a rapid spin mon and if you want a spinner mega blastoise , starmie and drill are much better overall. Its ability to set toxic spikes and spikes is just so small for it to even be ranked. Also ive never seen this thing used by a good player.

 

[AM]

So I dont agree with magneton dropping because its speed has more applications than just talonflame with tornadus-t and weavile being two big threats that magneton has the luxury of outspeeding while magnezone has to contend with the fact its getting outpaced which in a lot cases means its on the verge of dying.

 

[BlueLobster]

Okay, my opinion on all mons between C+ and D.
C+ Rank

I've never given it much thought, but it seems reasonable, and C+ sounds about right.
Seriously, why is this still C+? It's a great offensive pivot that can set SR, has a good typing, access to Volt Switch, and is completely underrated. I know it misses out on base 110, but it has the bulk to take a hit or two, so that's not too bothersome, and doesn't stop mons like Keldeo. Totally needs to rise to at least B-.
I don't mind what happens to this. It's a good bulky mon, who I've seen do work a few times, and C+ seems about right, but I'm no expert.
Ehh. Hera is a mediocre poke, and I don't even know why it's C+. I mean, what does it do, does it do it well, and why sould I use it over, say Breloom, who has a similar speed, typing, access to spore and mach punch etc, and with a toxic heal set can status absorb like Hera's guts set.
Fine where it is. I don't have enough experience with it to give much of an opinion, but I guess it seems a decent balance breaker. I can also say it's suicide lead set is pretty cool. I'm not bothered where this goes. It kinda sucks, as does Zone IMO, but then again I run offense so don't give a damn if my Bish is trapped by something it can kill with sucker anyway.
Perfect rank for it IMO, large competition from Torn-T and other megas, but still pretty good, which is exactly what C+ is summed up by for me.
Still the best birdspam check, but now it's practically dead I don't mind if it moved down. It was rather underwhelming when I used it late XY, although my set was rubbish so that doesn't matter much.
Fine where it's at. MPert basically outclasses the swift swim set, although a water absorb SR set sounds cool. It can also be paired with a mega such as MZor on rain, giving it another decent niche. Seems fine where it's at.
Birdspam is basically dead, for a good reason too. 100 is kinda too slow for the meta now, and the scarf set is just a little too slow. I would support a drop to C.
It's a decent momentum blocker in theory, I really don't care where this goes, seems okay and can't see a reason for it to move.
Too gimmicky for higher than C+ IMO, too good for anything lower. I would keep this in C+.
C Rank

Absol is fine where it is. It's main niche as a magic bouncer is gone now MDiancie is here, but it's movepool allows it to be a more effective SR blocker, as Diancie loses to common SRers like Hippo and Iron Head Skarm. Keep this in C.
IDK anything about this, so simply no comment.
This was correctly described as a hidden gem. I used it on a webs team I started in XY (which ended up filed in the bin after ORAS arrived), and it was honestly magnificent. The team itself was ehh, but Toise stood out as a key member, although he was only really used as a last resort (I needed an mega and a spinner, and didn't want to replace anyone). Enough rambling, this thing is powerful with a great ability and movepool, and is sooo underated. Up to at least C+.
Fine where it is IMO, should never go higher than C+ unless Chansey or the eviolite is coded out of the game, although it still has a good niche. I still believe C+ is still a push, especially now stall is not as good as a playstyle as it used to be.
This sucks, and should only be used on TR, which also sucks. Keeping it C in the same rank as good and underrated megas is just silly. Drop to C-, or even D.
Seems okay, never really tried it much. I could be convinced it should move up if anyone pushes for it, but not down.
I wouldn't care if this awful thing was unranked. It's awful, and should never be used on a serious team. It's pretty much outclassed by reg Latios, and I don't even know if it's viable enough for D. Down to at least D.
Opinionless. Seems good in theory, IDK about practice though.
C is too high for a playstyle which is destroyed by some relatively common mons. Serp, Bish and MDiancie all dismantle webs, and C is too high as Shuckle has not way of beating scratching these mons. Down to C-, hesitant to go lower than that, but I don't really care.
C- Rank

Fine where it's at. I have no care if it's moved down, though.
It has a valuable niche, although some games may do literally 0, so I don't mind where it goes.

The frail but evil trio of moles are better than every mon in this rank. They should go up to C, as they have good utility with SR + memento, and make for good glue. If they had visible bulk, I would say these moles should go up to B, but they don't, so C seems right for them.

Not tried it yet, but C- should be okay.

Get this dumb cat down already. It's an awful everything, and serves one role of Geopass reciever, and I could use practially any stored power mon and they would make a reasonable Geopass reciever. C is too high for something with such a weird niche, it should go Down to D.

A poor mon, IDC where it goes.

Again, this can go down to D. Kyu-B does all but 1 set better, and 1 set is a D rank worthy niche, not a C- one.

IDC what happens to this.

I like Pangoro, it's a pretty cool lure and a decent wallbreaker. I would support a rise if anyone thinks it should move up, but would not nom one.

As the only Geopasser, it has a C- worthy niche, although feel free to shoot anyone using it.

Whimsi is a rather underrated mon. With not only it's Geopass support set, but it's prankster SubSeed, Cotton Guard (an underated set that works), and the ability to paralyze grounds, I think this should go Up to C, but I don't mind if it doesn't.
It's coil and parashuffler sets seem good enough to keep it C- for me.

D Rank
Fine where it is, it's scarf set is okay.
This mon should not go unranked, it makes for a decent late game cleaner with it's shell smash set, although it does need alot of support.
A reasonable mon, should stay D, or maybe rise to C-. I don't care which.
Being a fab TR mon dealing with T-Flame is definitely D rank worthy.
Again, fine where it is.
BOOMBURST UR WAY TO D RANK, M80!
(I accidently deleted Forry's sprite) - Stay D. A resonable suicide lead, but noting spectacular.
It's a cool mon, and I oppose to it dropping. It's nice to catch foes off guard, and a fast memento/healing wish or a trick is always a good thing. It's more viable than the junk directly below:
Unrank this rubbish. All it does is blow up, and trust me, losing your mega to take out a non mega is never a good thing. See my previous post for more detail.
I don't care what happens to this.
With a reasonable speed tier, I think Honchkrow has a niche of a Bish replacement that doesn't die to any fighting attack you'll ever see not named S-Toss.
It's a decent suicide spiker, although it's annoying it doesn't have SR...
This is fine where it is. IDC if you relplace this with Huntail or not TBH.
Opinionless, only found out what it did yesterday.
I kinda want it off the list, as I said in my previous post, but I don't mind too much if it's "AV Pursuit trapper" set is good enough. I am so sick of seeing awful SR variants of this on low ladder though.
IDC.
This sucks, but has a niche, so keep it D.
Fine in D. A nice prankster WoW user even though it has meh bulk.
IDC.
Keep it D, it's a pretty cool mon to do FWG cores with without making yourself to pursuit weak, considering it's pretty much the best non dark weak bulky Grass that isn't passive AF or a mega. IDK if you'd count Serp as bulky or not.

I also agree with Venusaur getting ranked, it's actually viable as a partner to ZardY.

TL:DR: I would call you lazy, but I wouldn't bother reading this either...
Cobalion --> B-
Staraptor --> C
M.Blastoise --> C+
M.Camerupt --> C-/D
M.Latios --> D
Shuckle --> C-/D
Espeon --> D
Kyurem --> D
Whimsicott --> C
M.Glalie --> Unranked
Venusaur --> D

Edit: Fixed dodgy formatting.

 

[Roxachronic]

I think the problem with M-Latios is that there are few to non situations to use it over M-Latias or even LO Latios a handful of times, and that is not even taking the other megas into account.

I don't see why its ranked, like at all, there is like no valid point for it to be ranked or use it, even the other D mons have a somewhat useful niche going for them, and as they rank implies, they fit in some teams, but M-Latios? I just don't see it.

EDIT:M-Latios feels like Jolteon, it has the bad luck of it being outclassed by other mons, M-Latios has it worse because it costs a M-slot and is outclassed in some moments by even its regular form.

 

[Canned Bread]

Honestly i think that Haxorus should be dropped to unranked. This thing really has nothing going for it aside from moldbreaker. Sure its got huge attack but its outclassed by a large margin as a dd user. Hell mega gyarados outclasses this thing as a dd user due to having more bulk, better coverage overall and also has moldbreaker. Not to mention it has a really bad movepool. Ive actualy used hax a bunch and honestly id rather use any other sd or dd user then it. Hes pretty much lost his touch. Not to mention thats only one dd user. We have malt, zard-x, Even non mega gyara. Hes simply lost his niche as a wallbreaker. Not to mention he can really only run one set and all of them pretty much run the same thing becuase his move pool is that shallow. so again.

Haxorus D ---> unranked

Also i support on infernape moving up. Good Coverage and typing combined with the ability to go mixed access to rocks and a pretty decent defensive set. Its not even outclassed becuase its not only the only mon with that type aside from emboar but its got a ton of versitility and its more effective then several mons in c+.

Also minor question. Why IS cloyster ranked? Its really outclassed as a rapid spin mon and if you want a spinner mega blastoise , starmie and drill are much better overall. Its ability to set toxic spikes and spikes is just so small for it to even be ranked. Also ive never seen this thing used by a good player.

I support what you're saying but I'm going to tell you what everyone else told me two or three pages back. Despite DD getting a lot more usage, Haxorus gets it's ranking from it's SD stallbreaker set. Whether or not Mold Breaker Taunt and SD is enough to warrant a ranking is questionable now that M-Sab usage is declining and Clefable can dent it with Moonblast (25% chance to OHKO without factoring rocks, guaranteed OHKO with rocks, 0SpA investment) on the set up, but you do beat Quag if you avoid the Scald burn (and I guess you have Lum Berry for this). I don't think this is enough, personally, and I'm still not convinced as to why this isn't outclassed in every way, but apparently nobody else agrees so we'll see what the ranking team thinks in the next update.
Cloyster is ranked on it's Shell Smash/three attacks set and to be fair it is a potent set if played properly, but I haven't personally used it since BW so I'm not going to try and argue this one either way. I believe the set looks like this, though somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Hide

Cloyster @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Ice Shard

Hope that helps.

 

[BlazeLatias]

I support what you're saying but I'm going to tell you what everyone else told me two or three pages back. Despite DD getting a lot more usage, Haxorus gets it's ranking from it's SD stallbreaker set. Whether or not Mold Breaker Taunt and SD is enough to warrant a ranking is questionable now that M-Sab usage is declining and Clefable can dent it with Moonblast (25% chance to OHKO without factoring rocks, guaranteed OHKO with rocks) on the set up, but you do beat Quag if you avoid the Scald burn (and I guess you have Lum Berry for this). I don't think this is enough, personally, and I'm still not convinced as to why this isn't outclassed in every way, but apparently nobody else agrees so we'll see what the ranking team thinks in the next update.
Cloyster is ranked on it's Shell Smash/three attacks set and to be fair it is a potent set if played properly, but I haven't personally used it since BW so I'm not going to try and argue this one either way. I believe the set looks like this, though somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Hide

Cloyster @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Ice Shard

Hope that helps.

yeah ive used the sd set and while it does pack a punch its just not very good. It Breaks stall well but there are better mons for that role.
Im pretty sure cloysters not ranked becuase of that shell smash set. Its really bad and im pretty sure the fact he gets rapid spin and hazards is why hes ranked. Also im pretty sure focus sash or white herb is used as item not life orb. If it is ranked cause of it its still really bad. And like i said ive never seen a good player using this thing. Its mostly mediocre players.

 

[Dread Arceus]

So I dont agree with magneton dropping because its speed has more applications than just talonflame with tornadus-t and weavile being two big threats that magneton has the luxury of outspeeding while magnezone has to contend with the fact its getting outpaced which in a lot cases means its on the verge of dying.

If your main answer to these is a mediocre mon designed for trapping that has to lock itself in to a move that almost every team is immune to, that team had already inevitably failed. There's only slightly more reason to use magneton > magnezone than there is to use jolteon > raikou.

 

[Kurona]

Im pretty sure cloysters not ranked becuase of that shell smash set. Its really bad and im pretty sure the fact he gets rapid spin and hazards is why hes ranked. Also im pretty sure focus sash or white herb is used as item not life orb. If it is ranked cause of it its still really bad. And like i said ive never seen a good player using this thing. Its mostly mediocre players.

... nnnno, it's ranked for shell smash. I have never heard of anyone using the spin + hazards set which just sounds incredibly mediocre due to being hazard weak and not having stealth rocks. If you take a gander at the newly made OU Sets VR, you'll see it's only reason for being in D is the shell smash set, which does use LO because without it it has low power. Whether it's decent or not I have no clue, but at least do a little research before saying anything on it.
Actually that applies to quite a few posts here; I've seen a ton of things along the lines of "Chandelure > Unranked, I haven't used it and don't know what it does but it seems bad". If you don't know what it does and you've never used it/fought against it don't say anything about it. It's bad enough when someone throws out a random Pokémon, gives a wealth of calcs and then just promotes them to D, but deciding a Pokémon's rank when you know nothing of it and have no experience with it just takes this to a whole new level of silly and pointless.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Ah. Then ive been looking at the dons ou compendium to much lol. But still shell smash set is pretty bad. My bad then lol. Despite this i still dont think cloyster deserves to be ranked. Hes just not worth a team slot most of the time and there are much better water types and ice types out there. Shell smash is niche but you could be running better things in cloysters spot. Also chandy runs sub+cm Which is pretty amazing vs stall as several stall mons fail to touch it behind a sub and fire blast 2 ohkos chansey once it picks enough boosts. Anyways ignore my cloyster talk as i dont know enough about it.

 

[North Gate]

D rank is definitely not an excuse for a mon being bad, just by comparing it to the rest of D you can see it just doesnt fit. Ive used cloyster a fair bit and I know how it functions but considering the mons that wall it/beat it all are pretty easily able to be kept healthy, you cant use "its supposed to sweep late game" as an argument. Since a lot of people use that argument on Lucario as well lets use the comparison between the two as late-game cleaners. Lucario requires faster and frailer mons like Thundurus-I and Talonflame to be weakened to sweep (I believe just 2 rounds of LO recoil secures the ohko on thundy with +2 espeed and talon needs to be around 60%). Other than those, Lucario has enough speed to outpace bulky mons and has the coverage to deal with them. Cloysters problem is that it gets stopped cold by lots of bulky mons and lots of offensive mons just because its movepool is lacking. The problem with this is that Cloyster needs to be able to ohko every mon that comes in or it loses, other lategame sweepers dont have this problem. (Lucario might be in B- but the principle still remains)

It's an excuse for it to be mediocre, it says it in the damn title. It's niche isn't exactly outclassed by anything in ORAS OU and it deserves a rank for at least being unique in that factor, even if it's highly mediocre and only is useful late game, outside of it's niche it is completely awful and it does not get into favorable matchups commonly for this very reason. Like, I'm not going to go build a team and be like 'oh i need a late game sweeper, lets use cloyster'. It's used on very select teams and these teams usually can handle what Cloyster isn't able to. I see your point with the things that keep it in check are easy to be kept healthy (although it's biggest hard counter can be whittled down easily since no reliable recovery), but even then teams it should be in should be able to handle threats it can't. It's not good, as I said several times. It's niche, it's mediocre, but it deserves a rank. And how does it not fit in with D? I personally think it would be better than Exploud, Lucidolo, and Shaymin, by better I mean easier to use on teams.

 

[AM]

If your main answer to these is a mediocre mon designed for trapping that has to lock itself in to a move that almost every team is immune to, that team had already inevitably failed. There's only slightly more reason to use magneton > magnezone than there is to use jolteon > raikou.

Not necessarily when the nature of where magneton lies is under voltturn teams mostly, and these teams spend their time utilizing hazars and getting chip damage such as mega beedrill builds. By this logic the same flaws that are hindering magneton should also apply to magnezone if we are talking about dropping it. Magnezone has some pros that make it a better option but the gap between magneton and magnezone right now is perfectly fine rank wise. I dont see why you would drop it base on a groups bias towards big drops like these for slightly substantial differences that play much differently in practice, or at least when they're not exaggerating flaws.

 

[Alfalfa]

Too gimmicky for higher than C+ IMO, too good for anything lower. I would keep this in C+.

A gimmick is something that can work, but is very inconsistent. If you suggest that Wobbuffet is gimmicky, then it implies you do not have an accurate understanding of how Wobbuffet works, or even how to use it properly. Wobbuffet has some consistency issues against more defensive Pokemon for sure, but those are not the threats it is supposed to beat unless you are running a fast spread + Destiny Bond. Wobbuffet is meant to target offensive Pokemon, like Mega Lopunny, Mega Gross, and Keldeo, most of which Wobbuffet is good at trapping if it gets a free switch-in via VoltTurn or after a teammate has been KOd. Wobbuffet's consistency in trapping a number of threatening offensive Pokemon is not a demonstration of a gimmick, but a consistent strategy. The only real gimmicky Wobbuffet set is a Tickle set that is paired with a Pursuit trapper to take down walls, but why use that when you have two better sets with Sitrus Berry + Safeguard or Custap Berry + Destiny Bond?

 

[Jaroda]

Here are some reasons Haxorus merits D/C- rank.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 812-957 (115.3 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 478-564 (121.3 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 502-592 (138.2 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 386-454 (106 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 394-464 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 491-578 (124.6 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 530-624 (134.5 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 438-516 (123.7 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 286-339 (72.5 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 359-422 (93.9 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHK
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 378-446 (124.3 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 484-569 (159.7 - 187.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 386-454 (101.5 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 367-434 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Haxorus simply tears through slow teams like wet newspaper. If your team needs something that can muscle through the majority of defensive mons on BO and balance for the rest of your team, then that is Haxorus' niche. The reason it is so low is because yeah, its DD sets are outclasses, and its speed and defenses are just a bit too low. But it can pull its weight depending on your team. For example it is an amazing Double Dragon partner for Char-X since its able to swiftly eliminate Heatran, Clefable, Chansey, Quagsire, etc so Char-X doesn't have to run Earthquake.

 

[Albacore]

Time for round two !

Heracross for C

I’ve heard people say this thing should drop and I disagree. Even without its Mega stone, Heracross acts as a pretty great wallbreaker thanks to Guts and Toxic Orb, preventing it from being disabled by burns which is how a lot of teams handle physical wallbreakers like Heracross. Facade also lets it blast past stuff like Altaria, Clefable and Gliscor which Mega-Heracross struggles with, in fact, it’s a pretty great lure for these Pokemon since most people will assume it’s the Mega if Heracross has just been sent out and the Toxic Orb hasn’t activated yet, so you can pair it up with a less obvious mega like Gyarados, Scizor or Latias and bait these Pokemon out. It’s also a nice Bisharp check and an okay Scald and WoW absorber, especially if it runs an AV set (not a great set by any means but not completely unusable either)

Magneton for C

It’s kinda hard for me to judge the viability of Magneton and Magnezone since it naturally fluctuates with time : as their viability goes up, preparation for them goes up, their viability goes down and so the cycle continues. I guess this is true for most mons but much more so for the mags since you can literally just slap an item on one of your Pokemon and make them pretty much useless. I’d say that right now, both of the Mags are better than they’ve been for a while, though they don’t quite reach the level they’ve hit in late XY/early ORAS. And after thinking about it, I also feel like Magneton’s advantages over Magnezone are more important too, what with Torn-T being common and Regular Alakazam being actually relevant. And even if, ever since Greninja’s ban I’ve always found C+ rank to be too high for Magneton, now I don’t really think it deserves to drop anymore, even if I wouldn’t really mind to see it move down to C either.

Mega Blastoise for C+

Yeah honestly, this thing looks pretty solid. And I’m not talking about Rapid Spin necessarily, (which I still think Starmie does way better), but as a hard-hitting bulky attacker with good coverage. Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere basically hits the whole tier bar Azumarill and the Blobs pretty hard, and Blastoise has good enough bulk to come in on a good number of Pokemon too, especially thanks to its historically solid typing with really nice resistances. C+ doesn’t seem like a stretch.

Espeon/Smeargle for D

Stuck these together since, from what I can tell, both of these Pokemon are mandatory on a very niche playstyle, and neither of these are viable outside of this playstyle. If this isn’t the definition of D rank, I don’t know what is. I certainly don’t think they should share the same rank as Whimsicott, who is also pretty much mandatory on dedicated geopass teams and very much viable outside of them.

Chandelure for Unranked

I’ve used this thing a bit and it kinda borders on being viable, in the sense that it does have a nice but that niche is so small and specific that its place on the viability rankings is debatable at best. In this case, that niche is “stallbreaker that counters Charizard Y”. Chandelure is pretty strong and does have good coverage, but every time I used it I thought “why am I not using Heatran or Gengar?”, until I faced a YZard and suddenly remembered why. Besides beating one, admittedly threatening, but still not overwhelmingly common Pokemon, Chandelure is simply inferior to either of these two, to the point where even if you’re very weak to YZard, I’d suggest you just accept that you’re losing to YZard teams and pick a Pokemon which will fare much better in pretty much every other matchup. Reltively low speed and vulnerability to hazards isn’t too big a deal, lack of notable resistances and vulnerability to Pursuit TTar isn’t too big a deal either, but having all of these flaws at once is really debilitating. So yeah, I’d honestly unrank Chandelure, even if it’s very close to being worthy of a rank.

Haxorus for Unranked

This thing is just too devastatingly powerful a stallbreaker for me to see it unranked tbh. The set I posted earlier is just really, really good at tearing apart stall teams and has all the tools to do so at its disposal. Haxorus certainly has a much more well-defined niche than Salamence which can defog while not being purusitable I guess? Keep this ranked, it’s very good at what it does, even if it literally can't do anything else.

Shaymin for C-

I like this thing, I’ve used it a bit and it impressed me. It can be hilariously tricky for slower teams to handle because of Seed Flare’s SpA drops, and while Grass typing is pretty poor offensively, it’s nice defensively and lets it switch into EQ and Scalds. It’s basically a slower Serperior with far less sweeping potential and slightly less wallbreaking potential, but with more bulk, much more immediate power and slightly better coverage. Its main advantage over Serperior is that it’s not a one-shot sweeper, it can come in early or mid battle to put pressure on stuff like Talonflame and Venusaur, unlike Serperior which is much more restricted to lategame. I could see it in C-.

Doublade for Unranked

I’ve always hated this thing, even in its prime when it checked 3 of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame. It’s just so... needy. I think it might require more support than any Pokemon I have ever used in OU,and I’ve used Slurpuff and Virizion. The amount of Heal Bells you have to pull off and Wishes you have to pass to keep this thing alive so that it can barely even wall a Latios or a Gardevoir is staggering. This is exactly the kind of Pokemon you only use if you absolutely need to. And back in XY people did absolutely need this thing, but now? Not only have most of the things it beats dropped in usage and viability, but there are just way too many threats to worry about for Doublade to be the best pick on any team. It was fine when it perfectly plugged the holes into standard stall. Now it doesn’t, it’s just bad and you shouldn’t use it even if you’re weak to Heracross and Medicham and Gardevoir, becuase if you are weak to those things, you’re probably weak to another, more relevant thing which a way, way better mon than Doublade can help you deal with. If you find yourself having to use Doublade, you probably fucked up somewhere in teambuilding and need to try again. Garbage mon, plz unrank.

My own noms :

Goodra for C+

My feelings on this are pretty much the same as those on Blastoise. This thing gets a bad rep for being slow and physically frail and easy to wear down, but Goodra’s honestly phenomenal coverage can be kinda tricky for offensive and even balanced teams to handle at times. I mean, it gets Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, Muddy Water, Ice Beam, Outrage, Rock Slide, Superpower, Earthquake, Power Whip, Iron Tail. That’s some offensive coverage if I’ve ever seen it. And yes, its offensive stats aren’t the best, but super-effective coverage can take you a long way, especially when the moves you’re using vary from 90 to 120 BP (besides Rock Slide). You can call it 4MSS, but that’s not really true since when you have this much coverage, you get to pick and choose what switches into you safely as opposed to what doesn’t. After all, what can reliably handle a combination such as Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Sludge Bomb/Superpower? So yeah, don’t underestimate this thing’s ability to hit stuff, and don’t underestimate its special bulk either, since Goodra is able to pretty much tank any special hit outside of Gardevoir’s Hyper Voice, and acts as a pretty nice blanket check to special attackers like Landorus, YZard and Volcarona. I’m not even sure if AV is that good on it tbh : Leftovers gives it the ability to not be worn down nearly as easily over the course of the battle (which is one of the biggest problems with Goodra). So yeah, this thing doesn’t really get the credit it deserves and probably fits better in C+.

Mienshao for Unranked

I’m actually kinda curious about this one, does this still have any use whatsover anymore? Its main niche in OU was as an anti-lead which Lopunny does way better for obvious reasons. But even if we accept that you fsr don’t want to use one of the bets Megas in the game and would rather use a different mega and waste a teamslot on an anti-lead, let’s just look at what SR setters are the most common right now :

• Rocky Helmet Garchomp, which neither Fake Out+Reckless HJK nor Fake Out+HP Ice can OHKO so it still gets rocks up.
• Azelf, which outspeeds you and gets SR up anyway.
• Hippowdon (lol).
• Heatran, which is mainly use on bulky offense and balance teams which don’t really care if you anti-lead them since they’ll just get SR up later.

I think I’ve made my point, I don’t think Mienshao is viable anymore as an an anti-lead, andI don’t think a Scarf set differentiates itself enough from other Scarfers and Torn-T to be worth a rank.

Staraptor for C

I haven’t really seen this used much but I honestly don’t get its appeal. I’m pretty sure Choice Band is the set which makes it C+ rank Band, the Scarf set not really being worth running thanks to its SR weakness and nonexistent bulk making it a poor offensive pivot and preventing it from actually switching into things and correctly checking them (unlike, say, Landorus-T or Tyranitar which can switch into the things they want to check). And though Band is good at weakening walls with its powerful STABs, we have so much other stuff which does this well, and I’d rarely use Staraptor over stuff like Diggersby (its greatest competition and imo best comparaison), Tyrantrum, Victini, Heracross, Earth Plate Landorus-T, all of which come with different defensive perks on top of being able to weaken walls. And speaking of Tyrantrum, what makes it so good is that it doesn’t take any recoil. Staraptor does, and though the recoil doesn’t stop it from weakening one thing extremely, it’s still very delibitating since it much more easily puts it in KO range of anything and can easily prevent it from getting a second big hit in. And yeah, you can argue that Staraptor’s superior Speed over these Pokemon (besides Victini) gives it a great advantage, but these other Pokemon have just enough speed to get the job of weakening walls done. To me, it seems basically on par with Entei, another wall-weakener with a crippling SR weakness and major competition from a B+ ranked Pokemon. In fact, I’m not even sure Entei isn’t better than Staraptor, since it doesn’t take any recoil from its main spammable move and the burn chance of Sacred Fire helps enormously (even though it is admittedly a lot weaker). So yeah, I'm doubtful of this Pokemon's C+ status, but if anyone who's used this wants to defend it, go ahead.

Cleaning is fun!

 

[AM]

Mienshao should stay D. Life orb sets are really strong and provides itself as sort of an offensive utility with access to u-turn, knock off, regenerator. Hp ice is nice cause it lets it handle stuff likr garchomp anc gliscord that think theyre safe, especially great for fat chomps. Baton pass can also be used in the way bp celebi is used in regards to grabbing momentum on an opponents predicted switch in. Poison jab nets hits on fairied quite well also and due to fake out gives it some leverage on weakened set up sweepers down to their last leg. Its fine for d.

 

[Vxy]

Mienshao should stay D. Life orb sets are really strong and provides itself as sort of an offensive utility with access to u-turn, knock off, regenerator. Hp ice is nice cause it lets it handle stuff likr garchomp anc gliscord that think theyre safe, especially great for fat chomps. Baton pass can also be used in the way bp celebi is used in regards to grabbing momentum on an opponents predicted switch in. Poison jab nets hits on fairied quite well also and due to fake out gives it some leverage on weakened set up sweepers down to their last leg. Its fine for d.

Are these niches even worth it? The first 4 things you mentioned (hitting hard with Life Orb, U-turn, Knock Off, and Regenerator) are all things Tornadus-T can do. Luring bulky grounds is something Tornadus can do. Admittedly, Mienshao does this better because most bulky grounds are physically defensive, so there's one thing. Poison Jab to hit fairies? Well Tornadus has Sludge Wave/Bomb if you really want to lure them. Also why would you use Baton Pass? What does it do that U-turn can't? I would hardly call Mienshao weak to Pursuit like Celebi is so I don't see a reason for Baton Pass. Fake Out...eh I guess that's another thing. You can argue it does all this without being weak to rocks but is that worth a D rank? Not in my eyes when you have Tornadus-T, Mega Medicham, and Mega Lopunny to do similar things.