ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)

[Yellow Cheese]

Beheeyem is an easy A+ Pokemon at the moment. It is by far the hardest hitting Pokemon in the tier thanks to its Analytic ability combined with its very strong 125 Special Attack stat. It has absolutely zero switch-ins; Psychic/T-Bolt/Signal Beam practically nails everything in the tier hard enough on the switch that giving it free switch-ins will lead to a KO. OTR is a really good cleaner, and although Analytic isn't nearly as useful in Trick Room, its still very strong enough to muscle through most offensive teams. LO 3 attacks with something like Sub or Recover in the last slot can rip apart bulkier teams while leveling anything found on offense. Beheeyem is also bulky enough to withstand most neutral attacks, so it's not like it has to rely so much on its raw firepower to get by. It could definitely warrant a spot in S-, but with Krow, Scarf Krook, Eviolite Zweilous, CB Jask, and Dark coverage being a pretty common filler in FU, Beheeyem is by no means difficult to check. A+ seems very fit for it.

Seems about right, with bulky offense being so prominent it is not that common for it to be forced out. I dont really have much experience with it since I've only played a few matches win FU since the tier shift, but I think You're understating LO 3atk+rec, since thats the shit imo, you get some amazing longevity since you force so much shit out for free recovers.

Simipour will join the other monkeys in S-. Specs is extremely powerful and has basically zero reliable switch-ins outside of Politoed. Scarf is a solid revenge killer that cleans up offensive teams pretty well and has great coverage options. Nasty Plot is an insanely good sweeper that can muscle through nearly everything and with Sub it can set up on a lot of its checks, such as Tortle and Prinplup. I personally thought it was S- even with Goat around, but now that it's gone, Pour just finds it so much easier to spam Water moves. If Simisear is S-, I don't really think Simipour should be ranked lower than it, and vice versa, as long as Rapidash is absent.

Simipour is the best monkey in the tier imo as it is the most versatile out of all them. It does not have the great mixed abilites that sage has but specs, scarf, NP, SubSalac, Sub+3atk and LO are all viable to some extent. The only water type it really has competiton with is Golduck and that only works for RD or scarf (or CM if you're cool) and huntail which is only for SS or SS+pass, so you cant really compare them much (scarf pour vs scarf duck depends on how hard weather fucks you). I can see this go to S too (and why is Fraxure not S+ yet? its the most dangerous poke in the tier by far, even if its not so easy to slap on teams as buzz)

Also Don Honchkrorleone has resigned from the council because he's quitting. RIP like all of my council members lmao.

How many are left now lol

 

[Gary]

Also I'm going to be looking at Chatot very carefully these next few days when I'm testing with friends. So far, it seems very team restricting. It has practically zero switch-ins with Boomburst hitting so damn hard, and thanks to Heat Wave it can hit Steel-types such as Klang and Metang which would normally be able to wall it. Lairon just straight up loses to LO HP Ground, while Bastiodon is 2HKOed as well. Agility just kind of steam rolls through offense, and when I run bulky offense, I feel like I'm forced to run like SpD Klang or Metang on all of my teams, all of which lose to NP Chatot by the way. Evio Buzz can't pivot into it either. The only reliable way of beating Chatot is to check it, and while Chatot has plenty of checks because of its fragility and only decent Speed stat, you still can't ignore the fact that every time Chatot comes in for free, something is going to die, and unlike Beeheyem its Speed stat isn't terrible enough for it to be taken advantage of. Also like I mentioned earlier, Agility Modest LO Chatot just kind of ruins offense (OTR Beeheyem is very strong too but still not nearly as hard to deal with as Agility Chatot). The only true counter to Chatot is Dusclops, which is easy to take advantage of and you can't just slap it on every team because of how easy it can kill momentum.

It just seems very unhealthy for the meta at the moment and I can honestly see it being quick banned very quickly. Some thoughts would be nice.

Seems about right, with bulky offense being so prominent it is not that common for it to be forced out. I dont really have much experience with it since I've only played a few matches win FU since the tier shift, but I think You're understating LO 3atk+rec, since thats the shit imo, you get some amazing longevity since you force so much shit out for free recovers.



Simipour is the best monkey in the tier imo as it is the most versatile out of all them. It does not have the great mixed abilites that sage has but specs, scarf, NP, SubSalac, Sub+3atk and LO are all viable to some extent. The only water type it really has competiton with is Golduck and that only works for RD or scarf (or CM if you're cool) and huntail which is only for SS or SS+pass, so you cant really compare them much (scarf pour vs scarf duck depends on how hard weather fucks you). I can see this go to S too (and why is Fraxure not S+ yet? its the most dangerous poke in the tier by far, even if its not so easy to slap on teams as buzz)


How many are left now lol

You are the only council member left not counting the Co Tier leader and myself.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well Chatot has a hard time switching in but at the same time, everything has a hard time switching into it because of boomburst... I think it could be banned because it's kinda like Eruption Ty... Hits hard and it's speedy enough to deal with a nice part of the metagame...

 

[Yellow Cheese]

AV Relicanth counters chatot
Chatot is seriously way better then expected, I've only used choice but its pretty good. The one thing keeping it in check imo is Buzz being on every team. Buzz takes a good chuck from Boomburst but it forces it out every time, so I dont think it is banworthy just yet. Mabye suspect but not ban

 

[Rennyjesus]

Scarf Chatot can 2hko eviolite buzz and Specs can OHKO non eviolite Buzz with Boomburst (heck, even LO Chatot has a 94% chance for the OHKO on non eviolite Buzz)... Which means isn't totally reliable as a check... Without SR, Cuno can be a better check for non Specs Chatot, but it will receive a huge ton of damage...

Having said that... When is going to start Fraxure and Chatot suspect test? :3

 

[Clarisaxx22]

How does one even become a council member, because I'm interested?

 

[Rennyjesus]

How does one even become a council member, because I'm interested?

Me too! :3

 

[Gary]

Scarf Chatot can 2hko eviolite buzz and Specs can OHKO non eviolite Buzz with Boomburst (heck, even LO Chatot has a 94% chance for the OHKO on non eviolite Buzz)... Which means isn't totally reliable as a check... Without SR, Cuno can be a better check for non Specs Chatot, but it will receive a huge ton of damage...

Having said that... When is going to start Fraxure and Chatot suspect test? :3

I can't start suspect tests until I have a more active council/community. Even if I added two more people, I'd still only have 3 on the council and a dead community. The most I can do at the moment is quick ban things, but Fraxure is far from being quick ban worthy and Chatot is definitely more of an immediate problem.

AV Relicanth counters chatot
Chatot is seriously way better then expected, I've only used choice but its pretty good. The one thing keeping it in check imo is Buzz being on every team. Buzz takes a good chuck from Boomburst but it forces it out every time, so I dont think it is banworthy just yet. Mabye suspect but not ban

Like Renny stated, every set 2HKOs Buzz at the very least while Specs and LO put it into a range where it can't reliably pivot into anything else. Sure Buzz can pressure it, but outside of that, it just dies to a Boomburst. If Chatot happens to have an Agility up, Buzz loses anyway with a bit of prior damage. There are plenty of things in the tier that are punished heavily by Buzz but still end up being among the best in the tier (Murkrow, Simipour, Articuno, Kingler etc.) Buzz's usage doesn't change the fact that Chatot has no counters and limited checks depending on what set it runs.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well, do you think that if we win the OMotM in June, then we can go and try to get a permaladder? That would help FU to stablish like a serious Other Metagame! :3
And Fraxure has also the problem of having a little amount of switch ins cuz it can hit hard even before boosts... And it's pretty hard to stop after a DD, since Fairies can get a huge hit from Poison Jab and Steel Types from Low Kick... And with Eviolite, getting into +1/+1 isn't that hard...

 

[Gary]

Well, do you think that if we win the OMotM in June, then we can go and try to get a permaladder? That would help FU to stablish like a serious Other Metagame! :3
And Fraxure has also the problem of having a little amount of switch ins cuz it can hit hard even before boosts... And it's pretty hard to stop after a DD, since Fairies can get a huge hit from Poison Jab and Steel Types from Low Kick... And with Eviolite, getting into +1/+1 isn't that hard...

It has been told to me that FU will never get a perm ladder for as long as PU is not an official metagame, so even if we won again we'd only get the ladder for a month.

The biggest problem with Fraxure is that it really hates running both Low Kick and Poison Jab because then it can't run Taunt, which is a move that lets it setup on a fuck ton of things. Without Taunt it can't set up on things that carry Wisp or T-wave such as Gourgeist, Dusclops, and Regigigas. Low Kick and Poison Jab both let it get around it usual counters like Lairon and Clef, but it's going to struggle a lot more against bulkier teams that carry bulky shit that can cripple Frax. Again, I'm not saying Frax doesn't deserve a suspect, but it for sure is by no means as limiting as Chatot. Fraxure has been suspected in the past and was deemed not broken by a majority of the council, and that was when Sticky Web was around. Frax is still a huge threat, but nothing has yet to convince me of a quickban.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Oh... That's why I was feeling like I was missing something... XD
By the way... I dunno why PU hasn't become an official metagame since the calculator for showdown has some PU sets, like Smogon Pokedex... But well...
Even if not, we should have again a permanen ladder in another server to keep this active! :3

 

[Gary]

Oh... That's why I was feeling like I was missing something... XD
By the way... I dunno why PU hasn't become an official metagame since the calculator for showdown has some PU sets, like Smogon Pokedex... But well...
Even if not, we should have again a permanen ladder in another server to keep this active! :3

There are several. Are all dead as a doorknob. It was even on Frost at one point before it was shutdown and it was still dead there as well, and that was the second most popular sim.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

is not Iron tail better than jab since it 2HKOs spritzee at +1?
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 200-236 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

 

[Gary]

is not Iron tail better than jab since it 2HKOs spritzee at +1?
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 200-236 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

Tail is better on paper, but in practice risking the miss against shit like Clef and Wiggly is aids. It's definitely a preference thing but Poison Jab still hits Fairies for solid damage and has no chance of missing, so I just really can't be bothered using Tail.

 

[Rennyjesus]

I was thinking that happened because of the little presence on those servers but I guess I'm wrong... T_T which is sad considering that I really like this meta... Lower metas have always been funnier than OU or UU... Let's try to revive this on just one server! :3 can we?

 

[MZ]

I was thinking that happened because of the little presence on those servers but I guess I'm wrong... T_T which is sad considering that I really like this meta... Lower metas have always been funnier than OU or UU... Let's try to revive this on just one server! :3 can we?

Just get people to play it then. It's hard to get an incentive for people to play a random meta on a different server though

 

[Contraire.]

Will there ever be a tier below FU?

 

[Pikachuun]

Will there ever be a tier below FU?

This really depends on how many Pokemon are released in the future.

 

[Contraire.]

This really depends on how many Pokemon are released in the future.

Tbh I think there needs to be enough tiers so that every Pokemon can be used viably somewhere. Not that anyone would agree with me, me having close to 0 posts and all.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well.. I actually agree with you, and I have been hanging a while in here xD

It can be kinda ridiculous but even things like Delcatty, Spinda and Castform deserves some love xD

So... Maybe someday WHU (What the Heck? Used) could be a reality... XD

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Will there ever be a tier below FU?

Everything is possible, but how great fo a meta where there are literally only NFE's and a few super weak FE mons are used seems kinda bad. If PU was official FU would probably take its place, THEN you could make something lower. Hopefully Gen 7 will let this happen.

 

[Rennyjesus]

But that will not let pokes like those that I mentioned earlier some viability... And some NFE pokes are a strong presence on some tiers... So, I guess isn't a bad thing to have a tier full of NFE and not so hot FE pokes... I think it could be fun actually...
Taking into account FU usage for february, then the new WHU should have some interesting pokes:
Regigigas, Pikachu, Sandshrew, Zweilous, Sliggoo, Solrock, Duosion, Wormadam-Trash, Munchlax, Meganium, Butterfree, Scraggy, Seaking, Furfrou, Magcargo, Marshtomp, Pineco, Lampent, Politoed, Octillery, Gloom, Pignite, Dragonair, Vanilluxe, Emolga, Hippopotas, Dwebble, Shedinja, Fearow, Tropius, Vibrava, Wailord, Ivysaur, Shelgon, Maractus, Graveler, Hypno, Meditite, Golduck, Wormadam-Sandy, Gastly, Walrein, Trapinch, Lunatone, Honedge, Girafarig, Sudowoodo, Chimecho, Seadra, Natu, Porygon, Beartic, Weepinbell, Dustox, Abra, Mienfoo, Dedenne, Bellossom, Yamask, Quilava, Noctowl, Palpitoad, Eelektrik, Pupitar, Omanyte, Masquerain, Dunsparce, Delibird, Yanma, Snover, Mothim, Stantler, Corsola, Minun, Spinda, Gourgeist-Normal, Floette, Drilbur, Cottonee, Nidorino, Diglett, Carvanha, Phione, Anorith, Delcatty, Farfetch'd, Baltoy, Croconaw, Grotle, Carnivine, Clamperl, Lickitung, Dewgong, Plusle, Kricketune, Archen, Mankey, Bronzor, Duskull, Parasect, Bibarel, Staryu, Ledian, Braixen, Chinchou, Foongus, Marill, Timburr, Fletchling, Trubbish, Koffing, Lileep, Magnemite, Pachirisu, Sunflora, Growlithe, Swirlix, Torchic, Pancham, Nuzleaf, Frillish, Onix, Poliwhirl, Bunnelby, Charmemeon, Slowpoke, Skrelp, Phanpy, Shelmet, Bergmite, Illumise, Mantyke, Boldore, Watchog, Gothorita, Furret, Wormadam-Grass, Lombre, Castform, Vespiquen, Beautifly, Luvdisk, Loudred, Nidorina, Cherrim, Froakie and last but not least, Wobbuffet.


By the way... the Tier Shift was kinda weird:

We lose: Beheeyem, Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Heatmor, Ninjask, Prinplup, Lapras, Meowstic, Volbeat and Leavanny...
We win: Chatot, Bastiodon, Electrode, Purugly, Ariados, Gogoat...

Something like that...

 

[Gary]

Okay so I think this will be the last tier shift for a while. The only reason I'm even doing one this month is because every other tier did one, and it wouldn't make sense if FU still had shit like Prinplup in it when it's technically NU. I must say that it's yet another pretty significant shift, but in all honesty, I think it will have an overall healthy impact on the tier. We may have lost some pretty big top tier contenders such as Beheeyem, Sawsbuck, Bell, and Ninjask, as well as one of our best hazard removers, but we did get a lot of cool shit to play with, as well as some returning favorites. Here's a list of what we got/lost:

We lost:

Sawsbuck
Beheeyem
Onix
Munchlax
Cottonee
Volbeat
Prinplup
Heatmor
Ninjask
Victreebel


We gained:

Flareon
Gogoat
Servine
Purugly
Arbok
Whirlipede
Dodrio
Electrode
Hippopotas

So as you can see we lost a few key things as well as some....odd things. But we gained some very cool shit. Flareon is an extremely powerful wallbreaker; it may not have as big of an impact on the meta as Rapidash did, but being a very good check to Simisear thanks to Flash Fire and insane nuking capabilities is more than enough of a reason to use Flareon. Gogoat is a returning favorite, as well as Arbok. Purugly is a cool Pokemon, but in all honesty, Persian gives it a bit of competition in the current meta. Defog isn't nearly as common with Prinplup gone, and the other users of Defog (Swanna, Vibrava, and Vullaby) have ways to deal massive damage to Purugly so it doesn't want to risk switching in. One of the biggest factors that made Purugly so cool when it dropped originally was when how well it could punish Sticky Web teams, but now that Webs are banned, it's just not nearly as useful. Persian may be weaker and lack Sucker Punch, but its significantly more powerful Fake Out makes it a menace for offensive teams, as Fake Out + Double Edge KOs a lot of shit. Besides, Persian's Double Edge is stronger than Purugly's Return. Purugly is by no means a bad Pokemon, but I just can't see it being any higher than Persian at the moment. If Sticky Web were to ever be unbanned, then Purugly would be able to truly shine again.

Dodrio also seems really cool and actually balanced. It's very strong and has a decent Speed tier, but with the rise in Gigalith, Lairon, and Bastiodon, I don't see it being that much of an issue, especially because it lacks a Fighting move. Electrode is probably what I'm most excited for, and have been praying for it to drop for a long time. FU has practically one VERY good Electric-type in Electabuzz, which is a pretty cool Pokemon by itself, but gets most of its insane usage because of how amazing Electric-types are in FU, and how we are lacking in them. Although Electrode will by no means dethrone Electabuzz, Electrode definitely prevents the need for running E-buzz on every team. It lacks the bulk of Eviolite and the more immediate power that Electabuzz brings, but its insane Speed tier allows it to outspeed the entire unboosted meta as well as shit such as SS Huntail. Its movepool is also a bit more sparce, but it has some cool support moves such as Taunt, Foul Play, and Eerie Impulse which could end up finding use. So all in all, I don't see E-buzz losing its crown as king of FU, as it is a superior pivot that can switch into Hurricanes, Scalds, and Thunderbolts a lot more reliably than Electrode, but Electrode is definitely a very viable choice for its ability to outspeed the entire meta. In fact, Eviolite Buzz makes for an amazing check to Electrode, because Focus Blast is an easy 2HKO and even Life Orb T-Bolts do nothing to Buzz.

Also I'm banning Chatot. Even though Chatot technically got a check in the form of Electrode with this drop, it's still practically impossible to switch into and Agility sets just completely run through offensive teams. It's just very restrictive on team building, and I think the tier would be a LOT better off without it. Feel free to call me a tyrant for this more executive decison on my part, but after what I've seen so far, it's just retarded, and I refuse to have something that restricting in this meta.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Thanks Gary... My observations were made really quickly and I missed some pokes... U_U

By the way... Can I use FU forum to talk a little about TU or FU Underused? I was wanting to do another unofficial tier to try giving any FE poke some viability but it was rejected... T_T
Can we do that in this thread?
See ya!

 

[Throbulator36]

Thanks Gary... My observations were made really quickly and I missed some pokes... U_U

By the way... Can I use FU forum to talk a little about TU or FU Underused? I was wanting to do another unofficial tier to try giving any FE poke some viability but it was rejected... T_T
Can we do that in this thread?
See ya!

FU needs a permaladder to get the required usage stats to be accurate