Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[North Gate]

Sorry but i cant take that replay seriously when ur opponent was such a shitty low ladder noob (dig chomp and lich gengar... -_-), if u want to show a point at least use high ladder matches or tour matches, yeah now i understand the point of why politoed is -A rank while the frog really sucks hard (I said it was weak offensively not defensively he can take some hits) the provided utility of setting rain on his own makes politoed the foundations of rain playstyle and maybe he provides more support to rain builds than the sweepers because balance rain is a playstyle, however all this calcs seem favorable to rain but then u not account the different situations that a real battle has in place like u are not going to put specs hydra sucks and if u are locked on the wrong something something can set up so any serious player knows life orb mix so u are not walled by chansey

I honestly don't get why you're still trying to refute his post (even if that replay was shit yo.) when you literally said that you understand why Politoed is A- rank.

Mega Tyranitar is a forgotten threat and is pretty dangerous to face, it can struggle with some offensive scarfers but this can actually be solved by using a Rock Polish set (that seems to never get mentioned by anyone) and it can quite possibly use Ice Beam and stuff on these kind of sets to lure in Landos but I doubt the effectiveness there, although to be frank Mega Tyrnitar is leagues above most of the B- stuff and quite honestly deserves a rise at this point and any argument to keep him there is pretty much just like... just look at the others in B-. TELL ME WHY HE FITS THERE. PLEASE.

Edit @ Above: 5 of those threats fit the bill just so you know, th eones he mentioned. Sigh. Also Omastar isn't forced to run Specs on every set...

 

[DennisEG]

Ok respect to Mega venu to A+ i dont think this mon is that high rank in the current meta i can tell u some reasons.

• First off Grass/Poison isnt that good now than Torn-T, Metagross, Kazams, StallBreaker Talon/Gliscor, Lati twins and even TG Psychic Manaphy running around at least one of those in every single team not even with that great bulk mega venu had is capable to take 2 hits from this monster.
• Also is a mega slot that in this meta dont think is so usefull as it was in early XY, yes wall another megas pretty good too like every mega Fairy and Lopu that lack of PuP.
• The good thing is this mon is great against balance builds simply because can 2HKO almost every defensive balance core such as Ferro/Slowbro/Clef , and is a soft checks for steels.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

it is but it doesnt destroy offense so mindless like it was in XY, mega altaria, manaphy, serperior, toxicroak, celebi, mega neta wuth grass knot, azumarill, breloom, keldeo all of them are very popular in offense and they have good match up vs rain, so not only rain has a hard match up vs balance and stall where ferro, slowking or bro, celebi, chesnaught, amoongus and walls that will never die are everywhere but offense can still fight back, there is a reason why rain has dropped in usage.

I don't see your point to be honest. You state that these all check rain, but over half the 'mon you listed get overwhelmed really easy. Mega Altaria dislikes Scald from Kingdra, Ice Beam is a thing as well, Mega Swampert has Ice Punch, Ferrothorn is kinda common on rain, Kabutops has Stone Edge, Mega Scizor too. Manaphy I agree is a threat, but again, Kingdra, Mega Manectric etc. overwhelm it easily. Serperior literally loses to Tornadus-T, Mega Swampert w/ Ice Punch, Ferrothorn, Kingdra etc., I agree it's quite a threat, but it doesn't stop rain because rain overwhelms it easily. Toxicroak is by no means common LOL, and loses to Tornadus-T, Mega Swampert, Kingdra. Celebi is a huge threat to rain, but it can be beaten by Mega Scizor, Tornadus-T etc. Mega Metagross = best counter to rain LMAO, literally loses to Mega Scizor and Mega Swampert and other stuff besides. Azumarill yeah I guess lol, can be overwhelmed because of lack of recovery though. Breloom = best counter because obviously spdef breloom is awesome, not even gonna explain on that lol. And Keldeo just no when Kingdra beats it pretty soundly and you have stuff like Thundurus and Raikou etc. on rain.

Rain is a pretty sound check to offense to be honest. Balance struggles against it to an extent, but I'll admit stall doesn't as much. However, I'm on the fence for Politoed, it could potentially go down to B+ because tbh I don't see how you can use Politoed without Kingdra/Mega Swampert/Kabutops lol. Abstaining on this.

 

[Kav]

Edit @ Above: 5 of those threats fit the bill just so you know, th eones he mentioned. Sigh. Also Omastar isn't forced to run Specs on every set...

Yeah the offensive threats he mentioned weren't good examples I think. Most offensive threats I can think of don't really accomplish much head on unless they're a ddance sweeper or something. Thundurus would have been a much more noteworthy mention.

The only other set omastar really has is shell smash, which comes with its own slew of issues, especially since a good number of mons would just sack themselves against the specs set anyway.

 

[North Gate]

Yeah the offensive threats he mentioned weren't good examples I think. Most offensive threats I can think of don't really accomplish much head on unless they're a ddance sweeper or something. Thundurus would have been a much more noteworthy mention.

The only other set omastar really has is shell smash, which comes with its own slew of issues, especially since a good number of mons would just sack themselves against the specs set anyway.

They weren't good examples. Now the guy who nommed it admitted he could see it in A- so I don't think there's much to talk about anymore unless someone else wants to nom it.

 

[Croven]

Idk if Jellicent has been deemed unranked or D yet, but I might as well chime in since I've been using it an extensive amount recently.

After using it, I believe that Jellicent has the utility in this metagame to rise to D Rank. The biggest reason for this, is as stated previously, being an extraordinary spinblocker, as well as being a bulky Ghost type with recovery, which is fantastic. The most common spinner, according to both the overall ORAS OU statistics in Smogon Tour and the 1825 ladder stats, is Starmie, which is pretty obvious to anyone who has played the meta even slightly. Starmie is also the linchpin to many fat balance teams, which seem to be the rage right now. Without Starmie, they would fall to the pressure of Stealth Rock and Spikes, especially considering most offensive pokes on these teams lack recovery and are Spikes prone (Exca, Keldeo, etc). The beauty of Jellicent is being able to spinblock defensive Starmie perfectly, without fearing a single move. Also, it is able to spinblock offensive Starmie very well too, only fearing Analytic LO TBolt (unless you're using a very SpDef spread, in which case Psyshock becomes threatening). The niche of being able to keep hazards on the field almost flawlessly, considering Defog is somewhat rarer nowadays (and Lati@s isn't hard to get rid of either), is incredible, which is a big part in why it deserves to not be unranked.

However, simply being able to spinblock a common spinner does not guarantee a spot on the viability rankings. While some may say that it's useless when not facing Starmie, I will have to wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. With a simple moveset of WoW / Taunt / Hex | Scald / Recover, it has very few safe switch ins, being able to whittle down the opponent incredibly easily. For example, say your opponent switches into Ferrothorn thinking it can get up hazards or Leech Seed or whatever on your Jellicent. WoW / Taunt on the switch, do the other on the next turn, and if burn goes off, Ferro is crippled for the rest of the match, and is also free setup bait for something wanting to come in. Same scenario with Clefable. Taunt it on the switch (or on the turn after it comes in, it doesn't really matter tbh), and you have a free switch in to anything that loves eating unboosted Moonblasts, whether that be Skarmory/Ferro for more hazards, Charizard to nuke something, Exca to get off an attack or spin, whatever. The point I'm trying to make here is that Jellicent forces a ton of switches, with the sheer utility it has. And on the types of teams Jelli will be on, every switch is a huge help to your team, not the opposition.

Other stuff that I think is neat, but won't write up on due to post length and limited time:

• Synergizes wonderfully with Scarf TTar, who can Trap Defog Lati@s for maximum hazard effectiveness
• Most hazard setters that work well with it (Hippo, Skarm, Ferro, Chomp) naturally deter Exca, the most common spinner that can spin on Jellicent.
• ^Adding on to above, if Exca is LO, it takes an unreal amount of recoil just trying to get one spin off, factoring in SR, Spikes, LO, and potentially RH Chomp, meaning it can likely not get another one off. Also, if AB, Jelli walls easily
• Deters most pursuit trappers with WoW
• ^Adding onto above, if Scarf TTar catches you with a nice double, Crunch never OHKO'es (usually does 60-70% with ~130+ EV's, which is what I use), so it's a simple matter to recover and scout for Crunch or Pursuit
• Having a surefire Keldeo counter that can't be burnt is fantastic for any balance teams

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237604001
A replay showcasing hazards + Jellicent. My opponent had a normal M-Scizor balance, with Starmie as the spinner. Jellicent was able to flawlessly prevent any type of spin from my opponent, allowing the hazards to rack up. Also, any doubles he might have made to KyuB (a large threat to any balance, as my only answer was scarf TTar), it would take enormous damage from hazards, a large punishment in itself. This simple advantage of keeping up hazards allowed me to easily turn the game into my favor, with my opponent heavily unable to do anything about it.

TL;DR (since this is a long post)

• Prevents Starmie from spinning, which is 10/10 for Spikes teams
• Counters Keldeo without fearing Scald, which is 11/10 for balance teams
• Gives ample opportunities for hard hitters to come in and capitalize on hazards with Taunt
• Despite Dark weakness, somewhat difficult to Pursuit trap

Jellicent to D-Rank.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I don't see your point to be honest. You state that these all check rain, but over half the 'mon you listed get overwhelmed really easy. Mega Altaria dislikes Scald from Kingdra, Ice Beam is a thing as well, Mega Swampert has Ice Punch, Ferrothorn is kinda common on rain, Kabutops has Stone Edge, Mega Scizor too. Manaphy I agree is a threat, but again, Kingdra, Mega Manectric etc. overwhelm it easily. Serperior literally loses to Tornadus-T, Mega Swampert w/ Ice Punch, Ferrothorn, Kingdra etc., I agree it's quite a threat, but it doesn't stop rain because rain overwhelms it easily. Toxicroak is by no means common LOL, and loses to Tornadus-T, Mega Swampert, Kingdra. Celebi is a huge threat to rain, but it can be beaten by Mega Scizor, Tornadus-T etc. Mega Metagross = best counter to rain LMAO, literally loses to Mega Scizor and Mega Swampert and other stuff besides. Azumarill yeah I guess lol, can be overwhelmed because of lack of recovery though. Breloom = best counter because obviously spdef breloom is awesome, not even gonna explain on that lol. And Keldeo just no when Kingdra beats it pretty soundly and you have stuff like Thundurus and Raikou etc. on rain.

Rain is a pretty sound check to offense to be honest. Balance struggles against it to an extent, but I'll admit stall doesn't as much. However, I'm on the fence for Politoed, it could potentially go down to B+ because tbh I don't see how you can use Politoed without Kingdra/Mega Swampert/Kabutops lol. Abstaining on this.

Yeah i overrated a little bit the match up these pokemon have vs rain but some o them can tank a hit and hit back and others check rain with priority like breloms mach punch i forgot thundurus who is a pain to rain too, also rain offense kinda needs too much support and very few slots to cover your weakness (obviously shitty politoed/ 2 or 3 swift swimmers/ opposing rain check, Sr setter, defogger or spinner, wallbreaker that kills ferro/ thundurus check/ lati@s check/ wall breaker that fucks waters/ more roles) so yeah rain offense kinda needs a lot of role compression to really work but the bad thing is that u need the other 3 slots to do that so if rain wants to work it needs the entire team to support unlike sand offense which supports the team and the core itself (tyranitar + exca offers u a SR setter, tyranitar can lure on the exca checks like ice beam for landorus T or fire blast for ferro, a spinner, passive damage to break sashes and multiscale, etc etc).

 

[MilkyWay]

I'm going to go ahead and nominate Charizard X for S. This pokemon justs puts in so much work, both offensively and defensively, pulls its weight every game, is severely underprepared for, and only needs hazard support in return; which every team should have anyways. It's best set by far consists of Flare Blitz, Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance, and Roost, which allows it to wall break, check common OU threats, and sweep all in one set. It most notably checks Bisharp, Metagross, (Mega) Scizor, electric types, Serperior, Volcanara, Charizard Y, Landorus (must be in base form to do so, can then DD in base form) and many others. Thanks to Roost, it can afford to switch in and then even setup on the pokemon I mentioned above. I would even argue that many of the new shifts in the meta favor Charizard X. The decline in Choice Scarf Landorus-T gives it the freedom to run an Adamant nature now and the rise of TankChomp is actually a very good thing for Zard X because many teams are using it as their go to physical wall/check. Obviously Zard takes more damage killing chomp than before, but this pays off in the end because more teams are running tankchomp over physical walls such as Slowbro who give Charizard more trouble. Finally, consider how easy it is for Charizard X to break through many of it's checks and counters. Many of them, such as Azumarill and most Mega Altaria are 2hkoed by a +1 Flare Blitz. Others such as Hippowdon and Defensive Landorus-T have to be at full health and can only check Charizard X once. Finally, non Foul Play Slowbro and Thundurus can only status Zard ad and die in the process. This is great if youre running Charizard X with Healing Wish support because you can let yourself get statused, kill the appropriate chec, and then sweep later. I really think Charizard X is one of the most threatening, dangerous pokemon, and deserves to be S because it is just a monster

Quoting myself here because my nomination for Charizard X a few pages back seemed to have a good amount of support based on the likes, however, nobody every responded to it and it kinda got washed away in the Rotom-W discussion

 

[Anduril]

Yeah Politoed should stay in A- tbh. Rain is an extraordinarily dangerous playstyle and being the only pokemon with Drizzle Politoed in essence is the playstyle. If rain decreases in effectiveness Toed should drop, but it's pretty damn good right now. Politoed on it's own isn't great, but supporting an entire style is no small feat I could go on about Politoed's usefulness on rain but I don't really think I need to. Politoed should stay in A-

 

[firehusky]

Supporting the nomination for Mega Tyranitar to B. I was actually just going to make this nomination, lol. People have really been sleeping on this monster. Fantastic bulk followed up with sandstorm giving it basically an assault vest with no drawbacks, and a great boosting move in the form of dragon dance, mega tyranitar is a win condition that is pretty easy to setup with and people being so underprepared for it only makes it even more dangerous. It's offensive movepool is fantastic, consisting of moves such as stone edge, crunch, ice punch, fire punch, earthquake, and superpower. Many of its potential counters such as ferrothorn and skarmory are beaten with the proper move.

As I mentioned earlier, tyranitar has fantastic bulk. After 1 dragon dance, very few select choice scarf users and extremely fast pokemon such as mega lopunny can revenge kill it. It's enormous bulk leaves it resistant to brave bird, and while weak to other priority moves, it has the bulk to eat them up and continue with its sweep. If I recall correctly, the only priority move that actually can take it out in 1 hit is breloom's life orb mach punch. Basically, once it gets going it's very hard to stop.

Summary:

- Epic bulk
- Nice coverage options
- Extremely underprepared for (seriously, go look at your teams right now and you'll realize how weak you are to mega tyranitar)
- Hard to revenge kill bar some select pokemon

Tyranitar (Mega) B- ---> B

 

[ABR]

Well i'd love for that to be true but you see...
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If mega venu switches into clef as clef calm minds up,
mvenu then hits it for the first calc, as clef cm's again.
Then mvenu hits it for the second calc and clef soft-boils....
If its t-wave, then clef will be able to move faster too. Stored power will beat mvenu much quicker than flamethrower will, but both will beat it in the end if the player chooses to run them.

Ultimately, mvenu doesn't counter the most prominent and versatile fairy mon of them all, and that's a bummer.
Misconception aside, mvenu is fully deserving of A+

I for one do not believe that Venusaur is deserving of A+ rank. One very important reason for this is the ease of wearing down Venusaur due to its susceptibility to burn, sand, and low synthesis PP. All of these will occur quite frequently in a game with Venusaur, as it commonly switches in to pokemon like Keldeo that use scald, and 8 pp goes by pretty quickly considering Venusaur has no automatic recovery. Only to make matters worse for Venusaur, it is also neutral to stealth rock and weak to spikes. While I agree that Venusaur has the potential to be an A+ pokemon with its near ideal stats/typing/ability, all of these factors hold it back from being the fantastic wall/bulky attacker it could be.

 

[Unlucky Desperado]

After ORAS settled down with bans of Greninja and Mega Salamence, Mega Venusaur was the first mega I used on a successful team. The reason was because it served as a generally bulky Pokemon, and it was able to somewhat check Clefable, check Keldeo, check Breloom, check Landorus-Therian, check Altaria, etc.. and surprise Ferrothorn and Scizor with HP Fire. As XY transitioned to ORAS, not many people seemed prepared for Venusaur.

Now with the prominence of Keldeo and Mega Altaria, both which are S rank now, it's become better, and its former role on stall in XY is coupled with its ability to fit on fatter balanced builds in ORAS. Mega Venusaur can also pick its poison (no pun intended) when outside of Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and Synthesis, can use Earthquake to catch Heatran, HP fire for Bisharp, Scizor, etc..., Knock Off to remove items, Leech Seed for passive recovery, and Sleep Powder to stop switch ins such as Tornadus-Therian. Given its possible versatility that people may not bother to explore, it does have some notable flaws.

As ABR said, it struggles due to hazards and status. Pokemon Venusaur commonly switches into like Keldeo, Slowbro, and Starmie put it in risk of Scald burns, limiting its ability to switch in. For example, if a Specs Keldeo where to scald burn Venusaur, the next time it comes in on a Hydro Pump, assuming 2 average rolls, which is from (31-37), it would take: Rocks+Burn+Hydro, which is 12.5 x 2 + 34 = 59, leaving it at 41. The problem is, the 10-7% of damage Venusaur may have sustained earlier means it is a shaky switch in to Keldeo. Each time scenarios like this occur, it forces Venusaur to use Synthesis, whose PP is only 8. Venusaur's stats, 80/123/120 may make it seem bulky, but it's longevity isn't the best because it takes hazards, status, and also cannot switch into as much as a Pokemon such as Tornadus or Heatran, not to mention it's rather one dimensional/predictable role.

I don't want my post to be just be an expansion of ABR's post, so I will add this:
Mega Venusaur is the Pokemon that switches into a lot and is a great pivot, similar to Hippowdon, Skarmory, Slowbro, and Gliscor, all A ranked. Venusaur also allows relatively safe switch ins to Heatran, Talonflame, Tornadus and other Pokemon. Oh yea, it also takes up a mega slot, which isn't as important a reason such as some I mentioned earlier. I think A rank is a perfect spot, given its same rank to other defining walls like Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Slowbro.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Its a great playstyle because of the swift swimmers but it has a terrible setter unlike sand offense, so if rain is that great why kingdra is not in A-?

Kingdra should be in A- though. Politoed makes Rain possible but Kingdra makes it worthwhile.

Yeah its decent but you cant compare him to the other A- ranks and its own it kinda sucks its slow and weak, also stacks weakness with the swift swimmers (which is the reason to use rain no because rain itself is good like last gen).

Still rain kinda sucks, u can say that rain is a little underated and it is but it doesnt destroy offense so mindless like it was in XY, mega altaria, manaphy, serperior, toxicroak, celebi, mega neta wuth grass knot, azumarill, breloom, keldeo all of them are very popular in offense and they have good match up vs rain, so not only rain has a hard match up vs balance and stall where ferro, slowking or bro, celebi, chesnaught, amoongus and walls that will never die are everywhere but offense can still fight back, there is a reason why rain has dropped in usage.

All that offensive stuff dies to secondary STAB or is just straight up gets 2HKOed. Their "good matchup" is that they don't get smashed as much by water attacks. You cannot avoid 2HKOs from Rain-boosted Water STABs without being bulky, 0/0 spreads don't cut it. Oh and checking Rain is not just checking the waters, idk if your Celebi is threatening my Oma when I can just bring in Tornadus.

Here is what I think "you know this would be kind of annoying for my swimmers":
-Amoonguss (free switch in for Latias, Tornadus, Mega Metagros, etc. after Spore, and it's not very common on the ladder)
-Chansey (passive, bait for pretty much any Toxic-immune/nat cure Grass, gets 2HKOed if Eviolite is knocked off by Oma, can't tank Swampert or Kabutops)
-Ferrothorn (eventually gets powered through)
-Tangrowth (can't take Hydros/Draco unless AV)
-Celebi (dies to Draco+Outrage)
-Slowking (not Slowbro it can't take Hydros, Slowking is annoying but rare)
-Rest Manaphy (this is the devil)

So like some bulky waters and grasses and blobs... not Mega Altaria, not Chesnaught, not Toxicroak, not Serperior, not Mega Meta LOL, none of them can take repeated LO/Specs Hydro in Rain or Draco Meteors or STAB Stone Edge or Earthquake.

The main issue is that it's a weather reliant choiced mon. For stall teams you can scout using something that can eat a hydro pump and then double switch if its a coverage move because any half decent wall that can do that will sponge its coverage move as well. It's possible to burn turns of rain while getting in a status here or there such that all they have to do is survive. I never play stall, but looking at calcs against amoongus or chansey I don't really see it being hard to sponge attacks from.

For offensive teams you have to rely on sashs/priority if it gets a free switch, usually sacking something and then hopefully having something that can threaten it back (which has a very real chance of threatening kingdra as well and thus sucks up turns of rain while they try to get another opportunity to get damage in). Offensive teams also put much more pressure on politoed in the first place. Poli isn't like tyranitar, it get's 2hko'd pretty easily by neutral damage on a good number of offensive mons, so it can't easily switch in without pivots or dead teammates. The rain sweepers have the same issue, especially being choiced. The details really depend on the team but its more than possible to give weather sweepers a hard time without fighting them directly.

Rain doesn't even use choiced attacks much... Omastar is the only good choice user on Rain.

I really don't see stall often. I see plenty of fat stuff but most teams will have, at most, two things, maybe three, that can check powerful water-type attackers, in my experience. When most of your team just dies to Water then there's a lot of pressure on them. And that's if it's balanced. Offense fares poorly... really, relying on Sash? And sac doesn't work if you don't have anything that can do something with a free switch in. Like yeah okay you saced X to get Mega Alt in, I chip it for 50% and now there's nothing to stop my second Swift Swimmer.

Yeah i overrated a little bit the match up these pokemon have vs rain but some o them can tank a hit and hit back and others check rain with priority like breloms mach punch i forgot thundurus who is a pain to rain too, also rain offense kinda needs too much support and very few slots to cover your weakness (obviously shitty politoed/ 2 or 3 swift swimmers/ opposing rain check, Sr setter, defogger or spinner, wallbreaker that kills ferro/ thundurus check/ lati@s check/ wall breaker that fucks waters/ more roles) so yeah rain offense kinda needs a lot of role compression to really work but the bad thing is that u need the other 3 slots to do that so if rain wants to work it needs the entire team to support unlike sand offense which supports the team and the core itself (tyranitar + exca offers u a SR setter, tyranitar can lure on the exca checks like ice beam for landorus T or fire blast for ferro, a spinner, passive damage to break sashes and multiscale, etc etc).

Toed
2-3 swift swimmers
opposing rain check
SR setter
Hazard Control
Ferro Killer
Thundy check
Lati@s check
Water killer

So these are the roles you say Rain needs. Gonna tell you right now, Rain does not use Hazard control (unless you're doing some sort of fat shit), does not need a dedicated Lati@s check, does not need to check other Rain teams, and should not use more than two swimmers. You also don't need to check waters... you need to check grasses.

Toed
2 swim
SR setter
Ferro killer
Thundy check
Grass check

7 roles 6 slots. Swamp checks Thundy, Swamp and Kabu can set rocks, Latias can check Grasses and Thundy... I'm not often strapped for team slots, and I can always just go mono-swimmer and use Kingdra or Mega Swamp alone.

 

[Kav]

Rain doesn't even use choiced attacks much... Omastar is the only good choice user on Rain.

I really don't see stall often. I see plenty of fat stuff but most teams will have, at most, two things, maybe three, that can check powerful water-type attackers, in my experience. When most of your team just dies to Water then there's a lot of pressure on them. And that's if it's balanced. Offense fares poorly... really, relying on Sash? And sac doesn't work if you don't have anything that can do something with a free switch in. Like yeah okay you saced X to get Mega Alt in, I chip it for 50% and now there's nothing to stop my second Swift Swimmer.

That post was mainly about omastar anyway.

I said you have to rely on a sash or priority if you happen to give them a free switch in. If a team can't handle the rain sweepers once they're up then they need to make it difficult to set up in the first place. The details of that depend heavily on the team, but it's clearly not impossible to deal with or else it would be totally dominant right now.

I mean if you're fighting a team of six mons that cant match the speed or take the hit and then attack back? Then yeah, of course they're fucked.

I don't think rain is bad either BTW, it deserves its spot. I just felt it was misleading for people to bring up direct 1v1 matchups when it comes to rain. If 400+ speed sweepers that 2hko the whole metagame aren't an S-rank team then clearly there are other aspects holding them back and its worth discussing.

 

[MikeDawg]

I think that Venusaur deserves an A+ spot. Poison typing is very underrated. It is not susceptible to poison status, instantly granting it an advantage over many other defensive mons, as perhaps the most common form of passive damage (alongside scald) can't be used against the incredibly bulky venusaur. It can practically counter Mega Altaria (which is always great), alongside most physical attackers (such as mega lopunny). Even when physically invested, it can take special hits very well, and it can be used as a last-ditch gengar check. It is strong for a defensive mon, and its coverage is very nice. Its ability to run eq or hidden power gives it surprising versatility in that it can now lure and beat heatran or ferrothorn (and scizor). At the very least, the opponent must be weary of these moves alongside sludge bomb. Sleep powder is icing on the cake. It is definitely beatable by psychic/flying mons, but sleep powder gives it the potential to shut a potential threat down. This is especailly worthwhile against threats that venusaur is 2hkod (but not 1hkod) by, which is lots of things. It can effectively serve as a universal coverage move given how potent sleep is. it pairs very nicely with other defensive mons like skarmory (so much for that flying/psychic weakness). It has reliable recovery (though it doesn't appreciate sand, it typically has no issue dealing with most sand-reliant mons to begin with). Leech seed grants it further utility and recovery if desired (also it can support the rest of the team). Mega venu's bulk cannot be understated, and its typing is very underrated. Being able to hard check/counter most of the physical metagame (particularly mega gyara, mega altaria, Azumaril, Bisharp, lopunny and anything weaker) while also being able to tackle much of the special meta (altaria, sylveon, keldeo, clefable, rotom, thundurus, manaphy) is outstanding, and moves like sleep powder give it even more versatility in what it can counter. It is basically competing with sableye and altaria for the mega slot. On balance, its main competition is altaria, and venu (imo) offers more valuable resistances and utiliy than fairy-bird. In fact, they are falling to pretty much the same mons (metagross, gengar, gardevoir). I find leech seed and sleep powder to be particularly advantageous to mega venu. Take this argument with a grain of salt, as the two are very dependent on the rest of the team in terms of which is a better fit. The point is that venu is definitely a top-tier competitor for a defensive mega. It may be susceptible to burns, but so are most other defensive mons. It doesn't have to worry about toxic to compensate. Run a heal bell user if it is a huge issue, but its bulk typically affords it the ability to check most threats even when burned (it also doesn't ahve to worry about being physically based). Anecdotally: in practice, I find venu to always perform at mvp-level. There is very rarely (probably never) a game where it functions poorly on a well-built team.

Venu to A+

 

[AM]

Rankings that correlate to their impact in the Landorus meta won't be taken into account for about a week or so. It's fine if you want to portray what's going on in the current meta in regards to shifts in OU but jumping on the "Landorus is banned, drop this down, move this up." is more than likely getting the post deleted.

 

[Random Passerby]

Quoting myself here because my nomination for Charizard X a few pages back seemed to have a good amount of support based on the likes, however, nobody every responded to it and it kinda got washed away in the Rotom-W discussion

Supporting the Charizard-X to S nomination. The only real support it requires is hazard control, which can be easily managed by Lati@s, Starmie or Excadrill. It is also an effective counter to Mega Scizor, which is rising in popularity. The Charizard-X + Serperior core is also very effective in the current metagame as many of it's counters such as Rhyperior, Quagsire and Hippowdon are destroyed by Serperior while Mega-Charizard X is able to defeat Heatran and any Steel-types (read: Scizor) which Serperior hates. Furthermore, with it's decent bulk and great STAB combination ( which together with Tough Claws means it's able to hit decently hard before setting up), it can run whatever it wants in the fourth moveslot; Roost, Earthquake (for Heatran) or even Iron Tail (this move lures Mega Altaria which can counter both Mega Charizard-X and Serperior). Moreover, due to it's decent bulk and not being weak to priority, Charizard-X is hard to be revenge-killed after setting up unless by a Choice Scarf user.

 

[bludz]

Personally I believe Mega Venusaur is a high A rank pokemon. While it's a great pokemon that walls a unique set of threats and is the only true counter to Mega Altaria and the best answer to Azumarill, it is very susceptible to being worn down and does not present the greatest offensive presence. Sandstorm is quite common and hinders its ability to recover greatly, while it is also often used to check water types such as Keldeo which may net a burn on it with Scald.

The two megas that I think offer the best comparison are Mega Scizor and Mega Sableye because they are also bulky pokemon that serve as glue on many teams. This is a good comparison point as well because these two pokemon are in A+ rank.

Mega Sableye offers far more utility in moves like Knock Off & Will-O-Wisp and it also performs the role of hazard control (on both sides of the spectrum if you consider spinblocking) and is immune to status moves. I believe Mega Venusaur is technically a bit bulkier, but because it is more easily worn down and has more weaknesses (technically only one more weakness, but Kyurem-Black can also hit it super effectively) I would say Mega Sableye is about as difficult to take down while providing more team support.

Mega Scizor is a lot more versatile, with the ability to run Defog (meh), Roost + 3 attacks (not that used) or a choice between offensive and bulky Swords Dance sets. It also has more reliable recovery, isn't worn down by Sandstorm, and is bulkier with probably a somewhat better typing. On top of that its offensive presence is greater because it can boost, has utility moves such as Knock Off & U-turn, and powerful priority so that even bulky sets aren't totally passive and run over by sweepers. Overall I'd say this pokemon is also better than Mega Venusaur in the current metagame and should remain a sub-rank above it.

In short: Mega Venusaur is still a great pokemon but I believe it should remain A rank for now. The ban of Landorus may influence its ranking and help it rise, but I think it should remain in A rank for now.

 

[Toxzn]

Supporting the Charizard-X to S nomination. The only real support it requires is hazard control, which can be easily managed by Lati@s, Starmie or Excadrill. It is also an effective counter to Mega Scizor, which is rising in popularity. The Charizard-X + Serperior core is also very effective in the current metagame as many of it's counters such as Rhyperior, Quagsire and Hippowdon are destroyed by Serperior while Mega-Charizard X is able to defeat Heatran and any Steel-types (read: Scizor) which Serperior hates. Furthermore, with it's decent bulk and great STAB combination ( which together with Tough Claws means it's able to hit decently hard before setting up), it can run whatever it wants in the fourth moveslot; Roost, Earthquake (for Heatran) or even Iron Tail (this move lures Mega Altaria which can counter both Mega Charizard-X and Serperior). Moreover, due to it's decent bulk and not being weak to priority, Charizard-X is hard to be revenge-killed after setting up unless by a Choice Scarf user.

Disagree, while I'm not denying 3 attacks Zard-x with a lure move such as EQ or Iron Tail is good, not having roost is a huge drawback.

Roost helps Zard-X deal with its rock weakness aswell as giving it the ability to set up multiple dragon dances on a plethora of checks, which otherwise wittle it down and force it to eventually suicide or massively damage itself with flare blitz.

I don't think Zard-X is on par with the other S ranks. While I agree it is indeed a high A+ pokemon. Its checks and counters are geneally more solid than that of Metagross, Altaria and Clefable, who don't rely on either locking themselves into an outrage or massively damaging themselves with flare blitz.

 

[Reymedy]

Can you elaborate how Rotom-W is actually useful against stall? I'd be more inclined to say it's practically useless against it but apparently I'm missing something considering I've had offensive teams be slightly annoyed by Rotom-W but never had a stall team ever care about it.

Pretty sure I'm implying Rotom-W's momentum grabbing capability. I wouldn't use Rotom-W under the guise of power or some illusion that it's a "stall-breaker".

RotomW can switch into literally ANYTHING vs a Stall, and painsplit/voltswitch/burn from there.
Sure, it's never gonna do any damage in the end, but an offensive core can rarely manoever around a well built stall core because it takes damage in the process.
Imma take a really simple example, you got an HeracrossM, however you're not gonna switch it on a Chansey if it's a threat because Twave/Toxic could ruin your sweep. You throw RotomW be cause nothing can happen to it and you burn/painsplit it to force the softboil in order to send Heracross on that turn (and if the Chansey predicted you, then it means it's forced out low HP, if you did follow my example).

tl;dr : RotomW is a tool, not a weapon vs stall.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I disagree with Mega Charizard X to S rank as well.

As it was mentioned before, a Stealth Rock weakness is pretty crippling. Yeah I get that Rapid Spin / Defog support isn't the easiest to come by but it is a major factor influencing Mega Charizard X's viability overall in the sense that it does need additional team support. When Stealth Rock is up it can't successfully switch into Pokemon it checks such as Rotom-W, Mega Manectric, Celebi etc. for fear of losing that 25% alongside the additional damage dealt by the respective Pokemon.

In addition, Mega Charizard X does have counters, albeit not many. Examples are defensive Mega Altaria, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Depending on its sets, other Pokemon such as Mega Diancie and Heatran can beat it as well. I'm not trying to undermine Mega Charizard X's effectiveness, as the versatility it has is what makes it so effective, but its checks need to be taken in consideration as well.

Last but not least, longevity issues. Trying to sweep with Flare Blitz is extremely annoying, as on OHKOes it deals around 34% back to Mega Charizard X. Coupled with HP lost from checking the likes of Raikou, and HP lost from potential switches when Stealth Rock is up, Mega Charizard X is pretty reliant on Roost. But most of the time there is enough offensive pressure to actually stop Mega Charizard X from using Roost to replenish health, which means it dies pretty fast. Rocky Helmet Garchomp is also really annoying for Mega Charizard X - it switches into Flare Blitz and takes around 30% or so from Charizard, then a subsequent 30% as Charizard goes for Dragon Claw.

 

[Invok3r]

Idk if Jellicent has been deemed unranked or D yet, but I might as well chime in since I've been using it an extensive amount recently.

After using it, I believe that Jellicent has the utility in this metagame to rise to D Rank. The biggest reason for this, is as stated previously, being an extraordinary spinblocker, as well as being a bulky Ghost type with recovery, which is fantastic. The most common spinner, according to both the overall ORAS OU statistics in Smogon Tour and the 1825 ladder stats, is Starmie, which is pretty obvious to anyone who has played the meta even slightly. Starmie is also the linchpin to many fat balance teams, which seem to be the rage right now. Without Starmie, they would fall to the pressure of Stealth Rock and Spikes, especially considering most offensive pokes on these teams lack recovery and are Spikes prone (Exca, Keldeo, etc). The beauty of Jellicent is being able to spinblock defensive Starmie perfectly, without fearing a single move. Also, it is able to spinblock offensive Starmie very well too, only fearing Analytic LO TBolt (unless you're using a very SpDef spread, in which case Psyshock becomes threatening). The niche of being able to keep hazards on the field almost flawlessly, considering Defog is somewhat rarer nowadays (and Lati@s isn't hard to get rid of either), is incredible, which is a big part in why it deserves to not be unranked.

However, simply being able to spinblock a common spinner does not guarantee a spot on the viability rankings. While some may say that it's useless when not facing Starmie, I will have to wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. With a simple moveset of WoW / Taunt / Hex | Scald / Recover, it has very few safe switch ins, being able to whittle down the opponent incredibly easily. For example, say your opponent switches into Ferrothorn thinking it can get up hazards or Leech Seed or whatever on your Jellicent. WoW / Taunt on the switch, do the other on the next turn, and if burn goes off, Ferro is crippled for the rest of the match, and is also free setup bait for something wanting to come in. Same scenario with Clefable. Taunt it on the switch (or on the turn after it comes in, it doesn't really matter tbh), and you have a free switch in to anything that loves eating unboosted Moonblasts, whether that be Skarmory/Ferro for more hazards, Charizard to nuke something, Exca to get off an attack or spin, whatever. The point I'm trying to make here is that Jellicent forces a ton of switches, with the sheer utility it has. And on the types of teams Jelli will be on, every switch is a huge help to your team, not the opposition.

Other stuff that I think is neat, but won't write up on due to post length and limited time:

• Synergizes wonderfully with Scarf TTar, who can Trap Defog Lati@s for maximum hazard effectiveness
• Most hazard setters that work well with it (Hippo, Skarm, Ferro, Chomp) naturally deter Exca, the most common spinner that can spin on Jellicent.
• ^Adding on to above, if Exca is LO, it takes an unreal amount of recoil just trying to get one spin off, factoring in SR, Spikes, LO, and potentially RH Chomp, meaning it can likely not get another one off. Also, if AB, Jelli walls easily
• Deters most pursuit trappers with WoW
• ^Adding onto above, if Scarf TTar catches you with a nice double, Crunch never OHKO'es (usually does 60-70% with ~130+ EV's, which is what I use), so it's a simple matter to recover and scout for Crunch or Pursuit
• Having a surefire Keldeo counter that can't be burnt is fantastic for any balance teams

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237604001
A replay showcasing hazards + Jellicent. My opponent had a normal M-Scizor balance, with Starmie as the spinner. Jellicent was able to flawlessly prevent any type of spin from my opponent, allowing the hazards to rack up. Also, any doubles he might have made to KyuB (a large threat to any balance, as my only answer was scarf TTar), it would take enormous damage from hazards, a large punishment in itself. This simple advantage of keeping up hazards allowed me to easily turn the game into my favor, with my opponent heavily unable to do anything about it.

TL;DR (since this is a long post)

• Prevents Starmie from spinning, which is 10/10 for Spikes teams
• Counters Keldeo without fearing Scald, which is 11/10 for balance teams
• Gives ample opportunities for hard hitters to come in and capitalize on hazards with Taunt
• Despite Dark weakness, somewhat difficult to Pursuit trap

Jellicent to D-Rank.

Supporting Jellicent to D Rank for a few reasons. Firstly, jellicent is one of the few viable spinblockers in ou, and defensive starmie can't even fish for scald burns vs. it due to water absorb. Taunt also gives it great utility, since it can shut down mons like ferrothorn, and prevent itself from being setup fodder for the likes of reuniclus and clefable. Also, it is one of the few keldeo counters that doesn't get easily pursuit trapped, scarftar pursuit isn't even a guaranteed 3hko on it. Lastly, jelli is extremely helpful vs rain teams, due to water absorb and its ability to cripple and wear down attackers with will-o-wisp. This thing has a definite niche and many unique traits, so yeah Jellicent to D Rank

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I disagree with Mega Charizard X to S rank as well.

As it was mentioned before, a Stealth Rock weakness is pretty crippling. Yeah I get that Rapid Spin / Defog support isn't the easiest to come by but it is a major factor influencing Mega Charizard X's viability overall in the sense that it does need additional team support. When Stealth Rock is up it can't successfully switch into Pokemon it checks such as Rotom-W, Mega Manectric, Celebi etc. for fear of losing that 25% alongside the additional damage dealt by the respective Pokemon.

In addition, Mega Charizard X does have counters, albeit not many. Examples are defensive Mega Altaria, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Depending on its sets, other Pokemon such as Mega Diancie and Heatran can beat it as well. I'm not trying to undermine Mega Charizard X's effectiveness, as the versatility it has is what makes it so effective, but its checks need to be taken in consideration as well.

Last but not least, longevity issues. Trying to sweep with Flare Blitz is extremely annoying, as on OHKOes it deals around 34% back to Mega Charizard X. Coupled with HP lost from checking the likes of Raikou, and HP lost from potential switches when Stealth Rock is up, Mega Charizard X is pretty reliant on Roost. But most of the time there is enough offensive pressure to actually stop Mega Charizard X from using Roost to replenish health, which means it dies pretty fast. Rocky Helmet Garchomp is also really annoying for Mega Charizard X - it switches into Flare Blitz and takes around 30% or so from Charizard, then a subsequent 30% as Charizard goes for Dragon Claw.

Prediction argument goes to both ways so dont use it as an argument that charizard will go to flare blitz if the charizard user can predict the switch and go to DD or dragon claw, also the scarf users that used to revenge kill charizard X are so uncommon or have other better sets (bulky chomp is the meta plz), lando scarf is slower than charizard X also lando scarf its a little uncommon and SD sets are better, its funny that u say that SR weakness is a liabilty but other S ranks in the past like mega salamance, mega pinsir and now mega altaria which base form is weak to SR and the mega its weak to all kind of hazards but still mega altaria is S rank even if he needs defog support to work well it will give u give high reward like charizard even if he has a 4x times weakness in his base form but mega evolve he is only x2 times weak and i forgot that unlike victini mega charizard X has good synergy with all the spinners and defoggers even Latios who is inmune to ground, weaken fairys and can use surf or earthquake to lure in heatran; also with all the fan service that altaria has received thanks to that fairy / dragon typing people has hyped altaria to the point that they consider altaria better as a dragon dancer than charizard X but thats not true, charizard is more powerfull, 2 awesome stabs that compliment each others not 2 redundant stabs like altaria, great typing actually he set ups on more things than altaria and he set ups on half of the tier plz, and the most important stat speed in the who is the dragon dancer master race actually speed its so important because it means that after one dragon dance its less prone to be revenge killed this was the reason why salamance went to ubers in dpp and dragonite stayed in ou and definitly altaria its more easy to handle than charizard X, first between the 80-100 gap of the speed master race there a lot of scarfers that will revenge kill ur altaria but not charizard X after 1 dragon dance like scarf kyerum or scarf landorus T (earthquake 2kos) and charizard its more for this ev spreed, also charizard cant be revenge kille by priority so easily like altaria with his bullet punch and ice shard weakness so move up Mega charizard X to S rank he is versatile, powerfull and the best dragon dancer in tier he deserves to be with the megas at the caliber of metagross and altaria.

 

[Celticpride]

I disagree with Mega Charizard X to S rank as well.

As it was mentioned before, a Stealth Rock weakness is pretty crippling. Yeah I get that Rapid Spin / Defog support isn't the easiest to come by but it is a major factor influencing Mega Charizard X's viability overall in the sense that it does need additional team support. When Stealth Rock is up it can't successfully switch into Pokemon it checks such as Rotom-W, Mega Manectric, Celebi etc. for fear of losing that 25% alongside the additional damage dealt by the respective Pokemon

How is this even worth mentioning when Char-X was S-Rank before and hazard removal is not any harder to come by now then it in late XY? Even something that has a Rocks weakness without reliable recovery was S Rank somewhat recently (Thundurus). Sure Rocks weakness is a thing but using that as a reason to keep something out of S when it has been more or less irrelevant in the past isn't really sound reasoning imo.

In addition, Mega Charizard X does have counters, albeit not many. Examples are defensive Mega Altaria, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Depending on its sets, other Pokemon such as Mega Diancie and Heatran can beat it as well. I'm not trying to undermine Mega Charizard X's effectiveness, as the versatility it has is what makes it so effective, but its checks need to be taken in consideration as well.

Is this somehow implying that because Char-X has checks and counters it should go to S? Metagross has just as many answers as Char-X does and it is still sitting in S. Char-X's non Altaria answers are actually fairly easy to build in response to considering most of them fall into the bulky Water / Gorund type category. Charizard and Serperior is a very effective core in general and more of that is probably Charizard having a very restrictive group of answers that Serp just happens to handle well instead of the other way around. Just an example as there's a ton of things that fit well with Zard because it has such a limited pool of true answers.

Last but not least, longevity issues. Trying to sweep with Flare Blitz is extremely annoying, as on OHKOes it deals around 34% back to Mega Charizard X. Coupled with HP lost from checking the likes of Raikou, and HP lost from potential switches when Stealth Rock is up, Mega Charizard X is pretty reliant on Roost. But most of the time there is enough offensive pressure to actually stop Mega Charizard X from using Roost to replenish health, which means it dies pretty fast. Rocky Helmet Garchomp is also really annoying for Mega Charizard X - it switches into Flare Blitz and takes around 30% or so from Charizard, then a subsequent 30% as Charizard goes for Dragon Claw.

Does it really matter if Zard dies after a Flare Blitz if it takes something(s) down with it? It is a little bit different from your traditional DDer in that a DDer is typically a sweeper / cleaner, Char-X uses Flare Blitz to wallbreak and destroy defensive cores. Fatchomp restricts how much it can just spam Flare Blitz but if you see they have a Chomp sitting in the back maybe you shouldn't just click Flare Blitz so much? +1 DClaw is an OHKO on standard Tankchomp so it's not like Chomp can force recoil twice, you can limit the recoil damage to just once.

I've been in the camp that Char-X is a little underrated in A+ for a while now. It just applies so much pressure by itself and can in general deal enough damage to make using it worthwhile. I don't really care if Char-X can clean sweep the opposing team, as long as it breaks down the opposition enough that Thundrus / Keldeo / Serp / whatever can sweep it has done its job, and it does that particular job really well. Boderline S rank.

Quick .02 on Mega Venu, it is very solid right now. Big hype at the beginning of ORAS was the amount of new things that can threaten it, but out of that group the only prominent ones left are Metagross and I guess Mega Latias. Venu's a solid pick for a bunch of the reasons above, and having a consistent answer to Keldeo, Altaria, Lopunny, and Diancie (and a ton more) in one slot is a huge boost in terms of teambuilding. Especially with the guessing game Mega Altaria is now the positive of having Venu as a true answer can't be overstated. Rise to A+ makes sense.

People also look like they are rediscovering Mega Tyranitar which is great because it's so consistent and customizable. It also has the tools and ability to reasonably get by or lure all its checks if it wants to. Quick example is that Thunderpunch has a solid chance to OHKO Keldeo at +1, so unless Keld is Scarfed TTar can just smash it. Solid check gone. Will it always have answers? Yes but it can be much more of a guessing game than it currently looks like due to its extremely deep movepool. And unlike some other mons with wide movepools, TTar really only needs DD and Rocks STAB to reach some kind of minimum effectiveness. Raise it to B for sure.

 

[Flarowak]

I definitely agree with 2 rises:

Mega Venusaur- Such an amazing g mon and my favorite mega. It's only picking up steam right now too, and I have been having a way easier time using it in the meta lately. People tend to forget that he actually has quite a few answers to it's checks and counters like eq for heatran or knock off for gengar. The only problem is sacrificing hp fire which I don't like, I prefer just pairing it up with mons who can handle those checks instead. This thing can be plugged onto to loads of teams and fill a couple of roles really well. Mega Venusaur to A+.

Mega Tyranitar to B+- This thing should never have gotten this low, even having the hard time it did for a whole just based on its sheer bulk and power alone. So easy to setup it up and run through everything when you get rid of the nasty bulky fighters and ground types. So glad this thing is gaining more popularity.