Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[TyranitarKnight]

Mega Tyranitar to B+- This thing should never have gotten this low, even having the hard time it did for a whole just based on its sheer bulk and power alone. So easy to setup it up and run through everything when you get rid of the nasty bulky fighters and ground types. So glad this thing is gaining more popularity.

I agree with that. Once Mega Tyranitar sets up one DD, it becomes an absolute monster. Sometimes I have to pray for a Stone Edge to miss once that happens. The only true counters to Mega TTar once it gets a DD up is Scarf Terrakion, Tech Breloom, and Conkeldurr with Mach Punch.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

While I won't push too strongly for it, I definitely wouldn't complain if Charizard X were to rise to S Rank. The way I see it, Charizard X is sort of like XY's version of BW Terrakion in that it's a major standard of physical offense in the metagame; when you think of physical offense in 6th Gen OU, you can't help but think of Charizard X. It has tons of power, two strong STABs with fantastic neutral coverage, solid speed, and a handful of great boosting moves that enable it to tailor its set to take on just about any archetype. Not to mention its solid bulk, defensive typing, and reliable recovery that make it more than just an offensive brute. Charizard X's Dragon Dance set alone is one of the most iconic sets of this generation and one of the first sets that every player should prepare for in teambuilding, and all things considered, you don't get much better than Charizard X in terms of raw offense.

I think a lot of people get too caught up in the Dragon Dance set, which is understandable; Charizard X is staple Dragon Dancer for a reason. However, it's so much more than that. The only thing you can be sure of when you see a Charizard X is...actually, you can't be sure of much of anything lol. You can't even be certain that it's carrying both of its STABs, since some people opt to run Earthquake over one of Charizard X's STAB moves in order to make room for Roost or something. You've got Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and Tailwind, three boosting moves that let Charizard X threaten a different spectrum of team styles depending on the set. Then you have to deal with various combinations of its STABs and Earthquake alongside Roost, or you might have to handle a set running STABs and Earthquake (and even Tailwind in tandem with Swords Dance). Then you have the bulky Will-O-Wisp sets which, again, tend to run varying combination of Dragon Claw, Flare Blitz, and Earthquake alongside Roost. That's not even counting lesser used sets like Roost + 3 Attacks and lures with Iron Tail for Mega Altaria and such. Even slight variations among these sets can change up how Charizard X plays and what is actually capable of beating it, making it deceptively versatile.

That said, Charizard X isn't perfect, of course. It still has its fair share of checks just like any other top tier threat, and Stealth Rock can still be a pain in the butt (although let's be honest, with all the Rapid Spinners and Defoggers running around in OU, keeping Stealth Rock off the field has never been easier). However, I think it's too easy to look at Charizard X's flaws without looking at the qualities that really make it stand out. I'd say that none of the current S Rank Pokemon can match the raw offensive output that Charizard X brings to the table. Mega Altaria is a great Dragon Dance sweeper, but it's not quite on Charizard X's level in terms of strength, and it lacks the outright nuke that Charizard X has in Flare Blitz. It also doesn't have an answer to the power that a Swords Dance Charizard X is capable of. Mega Metagross is arguably a little more immediately threatening, but it lacks any way to boost its Atk stat outside of Hone Claws and a lucky Meteor Mash hit, whereas Charizard X can cream entire teams with a single Dragon Dance. Like Mega Altaria, it also lacks that one nuke STAB like Charizard X's Flare Blitz, and Swords Dance again gives Charizard X an offensive edge. And then Clefable...well, it's Clefable lol. Charizard X's unique offensive capabilities give it that real "standout" quality that we expect from our S Rank Pokemon, and unlike many other offensive Pokemon in the metagame, it's complimented nicely by solid tanking abilities as well.

All that said, perhaps now isn't the best time for such a rise. I'd actually like to see how the metagame develops with Landorus gone. It's most likely that defensive and balanced teams are going to gain some momentum, which I think could very well be a good thing for Charizard X, depending on how the specifics of the metagame develop. Dragon Dance and Swords Dance sets prey on some of these kinds of teams, and bulky Will-O-Wisp sets might see a slight boost since they tend to fit best on the types of teams that benefit from the Landorus ban. Who knows, maybe a Mega Altaria ban is still in the cards, which will remove one of Charizard X's best switch-ins and push it that much closer to S Rank. There's no telling what the future will hold, but for now, I'm interested to see the metagame settle a little first. So yeah, as is, I won't push too strongly for a rise, but I did want to throw my thoughts out there and put a little support behind Charizard X for S Rank.

 

[AM]

Minor update:

Alakazam: B+ > A-
Mega Tyranitar: B- > B
Jellicent: Unranked > D
Meloetta: Unranked > D
Banette (Mega): Unranked > C
Medicham (Mega): B > B+
Doublade: D > Unranked

Those just happened, maybe more later.

Edit: In convo with team right now and here's what we're discussing. Some we're considering others we're trying to just gauge ideas, mostly the latter.

Discussion Points:

Charizard X: A+ > S
Mega Venusaur: A > A+
Amoonguss: B > B-
Chesnaught: B > B-
Quagsire: B > B-
Scolipede: B > B+
Reuniclus: B> B+
Mandibuzz: B- > C+
Kabutops: B+ > B

Edit2: Excadrill: A > A+

 

[procrastinat]

I agree with that. Once Mega Tyranitar sets up one DD, it becomes an absolute monster. Sometimes I have to pray for a Stone Edge to miss once that happens. The only true counters to Mega TTar once it gets a DD up is Scarf Terrakion, Tech Breloom, and Conkeldurr with Mach Punch.

I'm neutral on the rise for now, while I test MegaTar out. One thing I wanted to point out is that you forgot Mega Lopunny, which outspeeds MegaTar even at +1 with a Jolly Nature.

 

[tehy]

Mega Charizard to s : hell yes. both of the zards are such damn threats, and just the ability to not even know which one it is helps tremendously too. on ladder I assume Y, which gives X a lot of helpful surprise factor currently

Mega Venusaur to a+: I like mega venusaur, but heatran is everywhere, and it's got nice checks like roost latis and kyu-b. still, it checks a lot with reliable recovery too and can usually rough up teams that lack a heatran / jirachi.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I think mega venu is ok in A its a very good pokemon now destroying annoying fairys, keldeos etc but his utility is not at the same caliber that the defensive pokemon in A+ has like mega sableye dominating the hazards war and mega scisor who sporta more usefull trades like a Sd sweepers, defog, a pivot with u-turn, bullet punch punishes fairys more than sludge wave because it kills them first, reliable recovery and he walls more things than venu so with the fiercefull competition for the mega slot and the fact that this megas provide more utility than venu he should stay in A, if alakazam rises then reunicles needs to raise as well, but why? Psyquics are really good in this meta even with the knock off buff offensively they are only walled by steel types, psyquics and dark types so with only 2resistances and the fact that fighting covers well that weakness makes psyquic a very good offensive typing and forces u to carry other psyquics to wall psyquics still some psyquics have shadowball [:.. also offensive psyquics are on the rise becauae they can easily get pass up special walls like the fatblobs or unaware clefable with psyshock which gives psyquic the edge over the special wall breakera on the tier, also psyquics only have 2
resistances but still the
defensive ones rule the tier and they have a lot of perks in reunicles case is the pletorra of sets he can run classic CM sweeper a la clefable, trick room sweeper even regenerator specs future sight its good to support fighting teamates and fairy types who all hate poison types but are supperefective to dark types who need to need to choose if they tank the fighting or fairy attack or let their amoongus or mega venu tank the attack the attack but then die to future sigh so really psyquic types in general are really good right now more the magic guard users in thus hazards metagame so bump reunicles to B+ he is really great right now.

 

[Analytic]

Alright so Charizard X to S? Hmm

When you take a look a ZardX, so many things about it stand out such as its ability, raw power, typing and, its access to moves such as Dragon Dance, Tailwind, Swords Dance and great STABs in Flare Blitz and Outrage. I don't think any pokemon in the tier other than ZardX can single handedly take teams on on its own. Its typing grants it an immunity to WoW while its dual STABs has no resists(except M-Altaria). I think the reason that it fell in usage in ORAS is because of the speed creep from the new Mega evolutions but lets be honest, it has no problem facing them(except M-Slowbro) after a Dragon Dance and the surprise factor mentioned by others(whether it's X or Y) makes it pretty hard to deal with. With that being said, I have a replay that shows an excellent example of surprise because of the drop in usage of ZardX and a rise in ZardY.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-217681437

So, seeing as to how chimpact's team vs weak to ZardX, I didn't want reveal what mega it was and make sure that I could sweep with it later on after weakening Slowbro and Hippowdon and you can see the result for yourself.

Weakening its checks don't take a lot of work and I can definitely see it becoming Rank S after the meta has settled down a bit. I think it's arguably better than mos t of the pokemon in its current rank and I'm gonna even go so far to say that it is better than its future S Rank compatriots. It can run a variety of sets that add to its surprise factor SD+Tailwind, Bulky WoW and even SD+Flamecharge.

Charizard X: A+<S

 

[Mur]

Zard-x back to S: I think this has been deserved for awhile now. Altaria has really been the only thing keeping this beast from going completely insane in this meta to be completely honest. The common checks to it like lando-t and thundy are far out of their prime while lando-t has been completely replaced by fatchomp who does not take on zard in the slightest. The versatility of zard-x is also shown in it's multitude of set variations. Ranging from standard roost+dd to dd+3atk, sd+tw, and bulky wisp make zard-x an incredibly difficult mon to prepare for. This versatility along with it's raw power make zard-x near uncounterable. The only true counters to this thing really are mega slowbro and quagsire who are either very team specific or take up your mega slot. The typing and natural bulk of zard also allows for many opportunities of set up against many different builds in the tier making it a consistent threat to play around throughout the game. The element of surprise between deciding if it's zard x or y also plays into zard's hands. Seeing zard+bish would make it to appear to be a zard-y team but what if its zard-x+sd bish to overwhelm hippo or bulky grounds in general? There are some pretty clever ways to deceive the opponent with different zard builds and it only really adds on to the potency of this beast. Like I said at the beginning this has probably been a deserved for a little while now. A ton of teams are just naturally weak to zard-x which imo makes it a contender for being a pinnacle of the oras metagame along with the other s rank mons.

 

[kumiko]

=
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-217681437

So, seeing as to how chimpact's team vs weak to ZardX, I didn't want reveal what mega it was and make sure that I could sweep with it later on after weakening its checks and you can see the result for yourself.

this is a really poor example. chimpact's team is horribly weak to cm clefable; his only check is cm slowbro. he also misplayed by going to defensive venu vs clef, and then tried to get his slowbro to beat a +3 clefable, which just doesn't work. after he lost his only check, he then went to hippo as an emergency phaser, which allowed you easily sweep later with charizard. chimpact's team isn't weak to standard charizard x at all, which is what i'm assuming you were running, as hippowdon is a full counter to it.

i'm not saying your arguments are wrong, but you're going to need a better replay to say it's S worthy than that

e: i'm illiterate, edited my comment.

 

[Nawthy_dogz]

Charizard X: A+ > S: Agree. With the introduction of Serperior, CharX can now muscle through its check and counter bar Heatran. Even MAlt can be overwhelmed by the combination of the two. One overlooked set of CharX is the BulkyWisp set. Lures checks with burn and can also check Msab and MAlt with no eq. I also think that CharX is not far off in viability with Clefable and MMeta in the current metagame.

Mega Venusaur A > A+: Agree. Mega Venusaur has become a relic during the early ORAS because of the hype on MMeta, MGallade and Msab. Checks so many top tier threats such as MAlt, Clefable, Azu, TankChomp, keldeo etc. And with the decline of bird spam, I think Mega Venusaur rise is a must. (We also know that Lando is gonna get banned soon so yeah)

I would also like to nominate some stuff

Mega Gyarados A+ > A: MGyarados seems to be one of the weaker A+ member. It is the best DDer to use against stall but with the decline of stall, it is easier to user other DDer such as CharX, who destroys defensive cores, and MAlt, for defensive synergy and more power.

 

[firehusky]

Unranked --> D Rank

I think nidoqueen deserves to be ranked. First of all, it's a pretty cool poke because it's one of the few pokemon that has access to both stealth rock and toxic spikes (Off the top of my head I can only remember smeargle, omastar, and forretress, could be some others). This is pretty nice considering that there are only a few good toxic spike setters in OU. Nidoqueen's coverage is also pretty nice. Earth power, sludge wave, ice beam, fire blast, thunderbolt, focus blast, are the main coverage moves that nidoqueen can run so 'normal' switchins for it such as skarmory and ferrothorn can be caught off guard if hit by a potential fire blast / flamethrower.

Defensive sets make for decent stealth rock + tspikes setters as they can make use of nidoqueen's decent defensive typing and decent bulk which allows it to check some pokemon such as thundurus, raikou, altaria, heatran, scizor, etc. It's stats and bulk are also pretty well rounded, although for OU standards its speed is a bit low, but it's actually not that bad for a defensive hazard setter like nidoqueen. Offensive sets are also nice as they can prevent other hazard setters from setting up hazards on it, and with lots of coverage which makes it unpredictable, it can often force a bunch of switches and the opponent has to scout for possible coverage moves which gives it the opportunity to set up rocks or toxic spikes. (Offensive sets rarely run both or else it can't run a coverage move)

Nidoqueen does have some shortcomings though, most notably its lack of power if running a defensive set and no reliable recovery. However, having access to both tspikes + stealth rock is a pretty nice niche and it's fantastic coverage makes a lot of pokes scared of switching into it. On top of that it can also check some pokemon thanks to its typing and bulk so I think it deserves D rank.

edit: I haven't used nidoking so I can't talk about it too much but a lot of what I said about nidoqueen should apply to it as well (good coverage, offensive hazard setter) but I've been using nidoqueen recently and although I don't have any replays, anyone that has used nidoqueen before can confirm what I've said. I'll try to get replays though, I just wanted to make this nomination before I go to bed and I might forget about it over the weekend cuz I'll be busy.

Basically this isn't mindless theorymon since a lot of people tend to think that nominations of unranked to D without replays is theorymon. I'll try to get replays as soon as I can but I have history, science, and math finals next week (all on monday RIP) so I haven't had too much time.

 

[Eraxxer]

I am still undecided on Zard X to S but I will say that just claiming that most of its checks/counters are dealt with by Seperior doesn't really make sense - if they were trapped and removed by Serp it would be an asset but does that mean we should send Azumarill to S because Torn-T deals with a lot of its checks? Pursuit trapping/actual trapping is a different story but that's not how it is in this situation. If a team can't deal with Seperior then that's an asset to Serperior and not Zard.
I'd also like to add that Lando-T is a lot more splashable now that Lando is gone - obviously we don't have a good idea of the Lando-less meta so you can't make a good judgement but it's good for consideration.

 

[Random Passerby]

I am still undecided on Zard X to S but I will say that just claiming that most of its checks/counters are dealt with by Seperior doesn't really make sense - if they were trapped and removed by Serp it would be an asset but does that mean we should send Azumarill to S because Torn-T deals with a lot of its checks? Pursuit trapping/actual trapping is a different story but that's not how it is in this situation. If a team can't deal with Seperior then that's an asset to Serperior and not Zard.
I'd also like to add that Lando-T is a lot more splashable now that Lando is gone - obviously we don't have a good idea of the Lando-less meta so you can't make a good judgement but it's good for consideration.

It means they can set-up on each other's checks, which implies good offensive synergy. Also, what does Lando-T have to do with Zard-X? It is outsped after a DD and simply dies to Flare Blitz.

220 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As for Defensive Lando-T, it is still 2HKOed by Flare Blitz and faces competition from Garchomp and Gliscor.

 

[akelly96]

It means they can set-up on each other's checks, which implies good offensive synergy. Also, what does Lando-T have to do with Zard-X? It is outsped after a DD and simply dies to Flare Blitz.

220 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As for Defensive Lando-T, it is still 2HKOed by Flare Blitz and faces competition from Garchomp and Gliscor.

Landorus T has always been one of the more solid checks to Zard X. Given lando needs to be at like 70% to effectively check it. That isn't bad considering Zard X can literally 2hko everything with its stabs. Also the 2hko doesn't matter. Lando comes in so its a +0 Zard and while Flareblitz 2hkos earthquake ohko's.

The only common hard zard x checks I can even think of are lando, t-wave slowbro and hippo. After that there's thundy which has had a decline in usage. Stall Mons like alomomola, t-wave cress probably handle it to some extent as well.

I really can't think of a better Mon to go to S rank at this point. Zard X plus sand looks a really scary play style to go up against at the moment.

 

[skup]

Nominating Stunfisk for D-Rank
​

Stunfisk actually has a weird niche on certain offensive teams due to its ability to check offensive flying and electric types, which tend to be big issues for offense teams, while doing rocks, and not losing momentum. I actually got my reqs with a stunfisk team (http://pastebin.com/hcGpmRd3) so let me try and explain wtf goes through my brain.

When I build offense, two of the things I like to have checked are offensive flyings, and offensive electrics. Both of these types to have fast, hard hitting, non choiced mons, that can shred through unprepared offense builds. Electric has Raikou, Thundurus, and Mega-Manectric, and Flying has Tornadus-T, and Talonflame. Lord Fisk happens too, by virture of its typing and bulk, hard counter both of these groups of mons extremely effectively. I don't think I need to post calcs to show that it beats electrics and flyings, but Earth Power is like a roll to one shot Mega Manectric, two shots Raikou, and discharge two shots Thundy after rocks or when factoring in LO damage. All of these guys Hidden Powers 3hko if you run an appropriate amount of SpDef, also, you cockblock them from volt switching and turn usual momentum gainers into huge losses of momentum. Torn-T and Talonflame can't really touch you, will eventually get static paralyzed if they want to spam U-Turn and Brave Bird on you respectively, and are two shotted by your Discharge/Thunderbolt, while like, 12hkoing you back. Talonflame can try to play mind games with Roost if its SpDef, but eventual paralysis and Earth Power kind of craps on that.

You get free turns against all the electrics and flyings to set rocks down, unless they double out (which i can almost assure you wont happen the first time you send fisk out because no one knows what the fuck Stunfisk does), and you can't really Spin or Defog on fisk due to Yawn, which is basically your ghetto phasing move. Yawn is actually kind of important, partly because Fisk has nothing better to do with its time, and partly because it prevents set up and prevents spin/defog dudes from sitting in on you. It also forces switches, which is always nice on your rocks dude.

Even though hoping the opponent has an Electric/Flying is kind of match-up reliant I guess (although add up the combined usage of Torn-T + T-Flame + Raikou + Thundurus + Mega Manectric and Fisk is live the vast majority of games), it has really fucking nice mixed bulk and you can just lay rocks down and sack it if you don't need it. While I'm aware saying that a mon is good death fodder is a pretty shit argument, Fisk has the distinction of being particularly good death fodder due to a combination of paralysis chance from discharge/static, its mixed bulk meaning you're very rarely even 2hkoed, so you can pump free damage out, and only fitting on offense which is a playstyle that needs to fodder at least one dude every game anyways.

I'm a retard and forgot to save Fisk replays from laddering, but other people uploaded some. I don't vouch for the quality of them, but hey, you guys like replays, so here.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235261959 (opponent has talon and raik and fisk goes off)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235134049 (yawn prevents zap from defogging fisk rocks which lets me win the game !)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235335251 (finals of an ou room tour against I ABR I, i play like a retard, but its easy to see what fisk is meant to do)

 

[shartruce]

well I use quag a lot so I'll talk about that.

I think Quagsire still deserves it's B rank, especially if we're talking about Mega Charizard X being promoted to S, as it is one of its best checks to the DD sets w/o Outrage. Quagsire has really good utility on semi-stall/stall teams, being able to counter many threatening boosting sweepers such as: Bisharp, Char-X, SD Mega Scizor, and BD Azumarill. It's Water/Ground typing is also really good to deny momentum from Volt Switchers like Raikou, Mega Manectric, and Magnezone. Also since it's a bulky water, it can still scald/ toxic it's switchins, and even has other not as common utility moves that are still good like yawn and infestation which can give you momentum.

Though Unaware Clefable is getting more popular mainly due to the increasing threat of Tail Glow Manaphy, as well as being able to take on BD Azumarill and thus giving Quag a little more competition as an unaware mon, Quag can beat different physical set up sweepers like Bisharp/Mega Scizor.

I guess as a bulky ground, it's main competition for a slot is Hippowdon, since they both can beat Bisharp/ Mega Char-X, as well as Hippo being able to set up SR and wall other physical attackers better like Excadrill/ Offensive Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross w/o GK, so I guess you're wondering why use Quag over Hippo? Well a few reasons, importantly as a BD Azu switch in, which not many mons can do other than Mega Venu/Sciz, doesn't get threatened by Bisharp as much (Quag can recover on Bish, so you're not as hardpressed), can beat SD roost Mega Sciz (hippo can phaze but that's it), and can beat SD garchomp/ddnite a lil easier, as well as having the scald utility to try to burn switch ins, and has more room for toxic (hippo only has room for stone edge, whirlwind, and toxic in its last slot, quag can fit it easier). Also hippo is A rank ( or should be), as it is a really good blanket physical check to a bunch of mons, just trying to say that Quag shouldn't be demoted because it has some qualities over hippo that are justifiable to stay in B rank.

tl;dr Quagsire should stay in B as it can beat a lot of the physical boosters, dissuades switch ins with scald burns and toxics, and can deny momentum to the Electric volt switchers that aren't Rotom-W. IF we're thinking of raising Mega Char X to S, then Quag shouldn't drop because it's a pretty good defensive check to it. I've used Quagsire extensively, and it usually puts in some work in a match

Keep Quagsire at B

 

[pika pal]

Landorus T has always been one of the more solid checks to Zard X. Given lando needs to be at like 70% to effectively check it. That isn't bad considering Zard X can literally 2hko everything with its stabs. Also the 2hko doesn't matter. Lando comes in so its a +0 Zard and while Flareblitz 2hkos earthquake ohko's.

The only common hard zard x checks I can even think of are lando, t-wave slowbro and hippo. After that there's thundy which has had a decline in usage. Stall Mons like alomomola, t-wave cress probably handle it to some extent as well.

I really can't think of a better Mon to go to S rank at this point. Zard X plus sand looks a really scary play style to go up against at the moment.

The big thing about Zard vs Lando is that Lando pretty much has to get in before or on the same turn Zard gets to +1, since Zard-X can speed creep the Scarf set, and will 2HKO if he can offset the Intimidate drop. This pressures Lando to come in often, which is a problem for a pivot, offensive or bulky, without reliable recovery (hell it's one thing that affected Rotom-W's drop).

That's also discounting the fact that Zard-X can basically lure and beat every counter to his DD set using WoW (whether the Bulky Wisp set, or just running it as a filler option on the DD sets considerng his STAB coverage), which means that while Zard-X has plenty of answers, it's unwise not to scout him since some of the more common Zard-X answers tend to be expected to handle some other mons in the Metagame as well, and the residual burn damage really cuts into any ability to do that. With Lando-I gone and the Metagame getting more bulky, Zard-X could start finding his way back into using the Bulky Wisp set on some balance teams as part of either a FWG or SFD core, or as a way to muscle past certain mons on defensive cores that can be built to deal with him now that Landorus-I's pressure is off their shoulders.

 

[Kutscher]

i agree with Slurpuff going to D rank, he is very similar to cloyster(a frail set-up sweeper that have a lot of dificult to set-up, hate priority users but can sweep quite easily), while cloyster have a higher Base Stab, and a higher defense to set-up, but slurpuff have a lot of qualities, like a better buff, a better coverage( i can't think a single Pokemon that resists to Fairy/FIghting/Normal simultaneously excpet from Gengar) and it's very dificult ot counter him. in comparison to Azu, he can Switch moves while still outspeeding offensive threats, but Puff have more dificult to set-up, cause don't have the same pressure that azu have, so Puff have to set-up against salbeye and other passives things, or use some support mons like whimsicott or azelf. now i will show some calcs:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 351-414 (135.5 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 294-347 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 359-423 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron: 556-656 (161.6 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Albacore]

hi

Charizard X to S

Kinda on the fence about this but slightly leaning towards no. Okay so I think that XZard is a super underrated threat and currently the best mon in A+ besides Manaphy (which I think we can just officially put in S now that it’s the best balance/stall breaker in the tier), but I do think there are a couple of things that prevent it from being S rank. One of my biggest problems with XZard is that Flare Blitz causes recoil, this seems rather trivial but can be really problematic since, after the damage it needs to take to set up and the damage it takes from Flare Blitz’s recoil can easily put it in revenge kill from priority range where another sweeper wouldn’t be. This also means that it’s a lot easier to wear down with stuff like Tankchomp and BS your way out of a situation where XZard should be able to just clean sweep you. And no, I can’t just run Fire Punch because Fire Punch is magnitudes weaker than Flare Blitz and completely forgoes one of the best things about XZard which is its raw power

But this is probably a pretty minor complaint compared to the main flaw with XZard and that’s the fact that it’s just not very splashable. This is especially when compared to other S ranks which, despite 2 of them being Megas, can fit on almost any team and need little to no support. Obviously XZard needs hazard removal which not all teams are willing to carry. It also doesn’t have the easiest time weakening its checks : oh sure, once other stuff weakens its check it puts in a lot of work, but in order for XZard to do it it needs to come in, probably Flare Blitz therefore taking recoil, and then has a hard time switching in on too much after that.

I’m not denying that XZard completely destroys teams and is rarely a liability, but just feel like it needs more team support and is less independent than any A+ rank. I really wouldn’t mind if it got S rank honestly.

Mega Venusaur to A+

Yeah this should probably happen, sure Torn-T and Kyu-B are huge problems but MVenu just checks/counters so much of the metagame while being able to pull off an offensive set that putting it on your team relieves so much pressure while not actually making you vulnerable to all that much in return. I mean this thing can legitimately check Weavile with an offensive set lmao :

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 143-172 (39.8 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Honestly the main reason it dropped in the first place was because Metagross was super dominant and a pain in the ass for it to deal with, but right now Altaria is a bigger threat and Venusaur is the single best counter to it so yeah put it back in A+.

Amoonguss and Chesnaught to B-

Putting these in the same spot because this is basically the same deal, the metagame is full of stuff like Weavile and Torn-T that just ruins Grass-types and these two have a hard time catching up. So yeah a drop makes sense. Chesnaught should probably drop since it’s complete food for Altaria, in fact it completely loses to every S rank, and its ability to beat Bisharp and Lando-T is less coveted than it was in the early stages of ORAS. And the fact that it can’t deal with what is now one of the most common Dark-types, Weavile, make it a weaker Dark check than it used to be. It’s a niçce Spiker but I’d much rather use Ferrothorn or Skarmory. Amoonguss I’m more reluctant to see drop since it’s actually quite a good Altaria check, if it runs SpD it can even kinda eat up a Fire Blast, but it can’t beat BD Azumarill anymore (unless it runs no item I guess?) which was one of the main things it was used for, and though it has Spore to cripple one switch-in, it’s still ridiculously passive and once Sleep Clause is broken it literally just sits there so yeah I guess this can drop.

Quagsire to B-

Never was a big fan of this thing, mainly because it only really fits on Stall and really fat builds. Unaware is definitely nice and gives you surefire safety against a few threats, but most of the time I feel like there are too many threats to afford a surefire counter to a few which can’t really deal with others, as opposed to a broader but less reliable answer to multiple things. And yeah, stuff like Slowbro and Hippo aren’t as good as handling XZard, but they deal with a wider range of threats and are less passive in general. I honestly think that, at this point, Quagsire is on the same level as gastrodon who has slightly different perks and also has an easier time fitting on non-stall teams.

Scolipede to B+

Yeah this thing is underrated, both as a hazard lead (which can BP off to something else once it’s done which is always hilarious) and as a cleaner (does struggle against fat Ground types, but other than that it’s actually moderately powerful thanks to Megahorn’s BP and has decent coverage). Nice Fairykiller, Seperior check, and one of your only options if you want a TSpiker on offense. Just a very nice mon in general and feels more like a B+ rank to me

Mandibuzz to C+

Fine in B-. I get that it’s nowhere near as good in practice as it in in theory, since SR being up means it effectively can’t wall anything, but you don’t have to use it as your hazard remover. In fact I really wouldn’t use Defog on it, not only does it need hazard removal to switch into things but it also gets an extra slot to run another utility move, personally I like Taunt+Toxic a lot since it actually enables it to stallbreak pretty well (a fully SpD set can theoretically 1v1 Clefable by PP stalling it as long as it doesn’t get critted which is hilarious). I don’t really think this is bad, just that it shouldn’t be used as a Defogger.

Kabutops to B

Not sure if this should drop but I do know for a fact that it’s not as good as Kingdra as a swift swimmer, mainly because Kingdra has a better defensive typing and can weaken its checks via Scald. However I don’t think it’s worse than Kingdra to the point of warranting a lower rank, its access to SD and ability to provide Rapid Spin support being pretty clear advantages over it. As I mentioned before, I’d actually rather Kingdra move to A- than Kabutops drop since Kingdra is effectively almost as mandatory on rain as Politoed in practice.

Nidoqueen to D

Yes please, this thing should be ranked not neccesarily becuase of the Landorus ban but more because it's a pretty good TSpiker and Clefable check (which isn't fucked by TWave like 99% of Clefable checks are no less) backed up by very nice power and coverage, actually making it a pretty big threat to balance (Sludge Wave/EPower/Ice Beam takes a page from Landorus’s book and is kinda hard to properly wall w/o a Chansey, especially given Nidoqueen’s STAB on Sludge Wave). This can probably move higher than D tbh, it’s not nearly as niche as the rest of that rank and at least on par with Roserade in terms of what it does imo. And yeah as firehusky mentioned Nidoking can probably be ranked too, it’s not as good a TSpiker as Nidoqueen but it’s a better wallbreaker and can much more easily afford Superpower for Chansey. If it was up to me I'd put Nidoqueen in C-/C and Nidoking in D.

 

[Martin]

Gonna make brief comments on the discussion points. Here goes!

Charizard X: A+ > S: 100% agree with this. Charizard X is just so threatening in the metagame atm. There isn't much I can say that hasn't been said already aside from lure moves making it godly.

Mega Venusaur: A > A+: Once again, I 100% agree with this. It is severely underrated atm, and its ability to check so much of the metagame (including special M-Altaria) - about as much as it did in XY, in fact - just means that there is little reason for it not to move up at this point.

Amoonguss: B > B-: Disagree here. While it is impossible to deny that stall isn't used as much atm, I think before we make any rash decisions regarding stall 'mons like Amoonguss and Quagsire, we need to let the post Lando meta settle down, as a big contributor to stall's decline was Lando. Don't make any decisions regarding this atm. However, if I had to state my opinion ATM, I'm inclined for it to not move down anyway simply due to the great utility it provides over M-Venu (also Regen being the best defensive ability in the game if you ignore Wonder Guard) and due to its great pivoting ability.

Chesnaught: B > B-: Chesnaught is not as good as it was in early ORAS, sure. However, I am on the fence about whether it should move down. Bulletproof is just such great utility for a defensive Pokemon, allowing it to completely wall M-Venu and, with a little prediction, pivot through Gengar (unless they are one of those crappy Sludge Bomb variants that u don't need to predict against lol). It just acts as such a good check for physical attackers, although its weakness to Azumarill's Play Rough is kind of a bummer due to it being a Grass-type v.s. Azu's water. I'll abstain on this.

Quagsire: B > B-: See: Amoonguss.

Scolipede: B > B+: Agreed. I am having a lot of fun using this as a Spikes lead with Protect, Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Endeavor/Baton Pass, and it is just really good atm. Sure there are the offensive and BP variants as well, but neither of them are as fun to use as Spikes. Admittedly, Spikes is set up on by anything with Sub, but you should only really be using it on teams with Electric-type coverage to hit the Sub user that takes advantage of it the best (Gyarados) anyway and it can alleviate the issue a little with Baton Pass anyway. All in all, I agree with this.

Reuniclus: B> B+: Agreed. I left my thoughts on this a few pages ago, so I won't say it again.

Mandibuzz: B- > C+: Agreed. It's niche is not as useful as it was in XY, and its defensive stats are somewhat lacking tbh. If the Aegi suspect had gone the other way (thank god it didn't) I would have been inclined to disagree with this, but it didn't so... really there isn't much to say because, like Rotom-W, this is more of a gut instinct for me.

Kabutops: B+ > B: Disagree here. Kabu is a scary Swift Swimmer (and the only viable physical one). Rain is terrifying in the meta ATM, and if you are building a rain team Kabu is almost a must due to it being the best form of fully physical offense that isn't acting as a pivot in the playstyle. And no: Mixdra doesn't count as physical because it is MIXED.

Those are my thoughts. They aren't in much detail because I'm lazy and not as passionate about these moves as some others, but hopefully they will suffice.

Also AM what happened to Rotom-W? It was almost unanimously agreed that it should go to A-, yet no movement.

edit: ok apparently Nidoqueen has been nommed, so I'm going to say that I agree with it. Once again, I'm lazy so not much detail, but it is significantly more usable now that Lando is gone, and it acts as a nice bulky attacker that can lay Stealth Rock and/or Toxic Spikes. STAB Sheer Force Sludge Wave and Earth Power are nothing to scoff at, and its access to good coverage options in Fire Blast and Ice Beam if it opts not to run one of Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock are just the icing on the cake.

Edit 2: Gonna nom Manaphy to S on the basis that it is about as good overall as Charizard-X is (albeit not in the same role) and IMO if one moves up the other should tbh. Not much else to say here tbh as this is more of a thing that I feel is reliant on something else moving up at the same time to move up. Basically, what I am saying is if Char-X moves up, move Manaphy up, but if Char-X doesn't move up, don't move Manaphy up. Just a bit of food for thought tbh.

 

[Swagata]

Hello.

Charizard X from A+ to S: Agree with this. This thing is still a monster even with the new megas running rampant.Good ability with decent bulk, several viable sets plus not knowing which mega it is puts alot of pressure on the opponent.The presence of Mega Altaria affects Charizard but the benefits it provides on a team is unmatched,and outweighs the costs of using him over another mega. A physical attacker who's immune to burns is a huge plus point.

Quasire from B to B-: I do not agree with this. It is true that Unaware Clefable is being used more but Quagsire has its own perks over Clefable. He might need a specific team archetype to be effective but he has got a pretty good defensive typing giving him only 1 weakness which compliments its excellent ability and helps him stop many heavy hitters in OU. Being able to deal with things which Unaware Clefable cannot give him a deserved place in B rank.

 

[Gimmick]

Quagsire should remain in B.

Quick and to the point. I can't see Quagsire dropping down to B- especially now with Landorus-I gone and Charizard-X getting hyped. I honestly think Quagsire has a stronger niche than Gastrodon--which currently sits in B-. They're similar in terms of typing and moves, but Unaware is huge because it makes Quagsire a fantastic blanket check to so many things that threaten Stall, many of which are currently in S or A+ on the viability rankings. Here are some important calcs which showcase each Pokemon at 252 Atk Adamant:

• 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, 0% w/o SR
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Outrage 2HKOs, but that move is practically nonexistent in 1825 Stats and only has ~3% usage in 1500 Stats)
• 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 175-208 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (with an item)
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 118-140 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 91.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (without an item)
• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Grass Knot obviously OHKOs though)
• 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

A healthy Quagsire practically invalidates all of these S/A+ powerhouses (as in, makes them pretty useless during the game or until Quagsire is weakened to the point where their moves can 2HKO) because it can switch in on every single one of them, not worry about boosts, and just Recover off the damage as they switch out or attack, only to repeat the same process later on. It's just such an easy and mindless out to so many things that keeps many Stall teams from losing to set-up sweepers. If Quagsire wasn't so passive and mostly useful on Stall teams, I'd say it even deserves to be up with Slowking and Suicune in B+. But since it has pretty mediocre bulk and an even worse SAtk stat that doesn't really abuse Scald, I think it's fine just where it is.

For comparison, here are the same calcs, but with Unaware Clefable:

• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 320-377 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• and finally, something that isn't blatantly obvious:
  • 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The biggest point here is that Quagsire can actually switch in on these Pokemon for free and not worry about getting 2HKOd whereas Clefable cannot, which is huge for Stall so they don't have to predict around an attacking move or a set-up move.

 

[Analytic]

A<A+
I think it's definitely worthy of this. With Landorus gone, I definitely see this rising.

One of the qualities that made Landorus so good was its ability to hit hard without any boosts. M-Gardevoir possesses an excellent ability in Pixilate, which boosts all Normal type moves by 1.3x and turning them into Fairy type moves in the process, and access to an amazing base 165 in SpA and 135 SpD. It also gets access to Hyper Voice and Psyshock, its two main STABs, while also gaining access to Focus Blast which allows it to hit Steel types that give it problems while utility moves in Taunt, Calm Mind and Will-O-Wisp help it immensely.

It functions best vs bulkier teams, like Landorus lol, where it has nothing to outspeed it and revenge it. M-Gardevoir loves facing stall teams, with Taunt+3 attacks, almost everything succumbs to it's dual STABs and Focus Blast. It is also a very good mon to face Balance as it doesn't have many switch ins and the ones that do, get beaten by its other moves.

It functions the worst against offense but it's not that bad, it will definitely get a few kills. Its decent SpDef allows it to take a few hits from the specially orientated attackers. It's got a really poor defense stat though, which makes it really easy to kill with priority and physical moves.

I'm sorry if the post felt a bit rushed because it was, anyways, here's a replay showing how good M-Gardevoir is

The game was indeed haxy but I still loved how CM Gardevoir managed to pull through

 

[Alfalfa]

i agree with Slurpuff going to D rank, he is very similar to cloyster(a frail set-up sweeper that have a lot of dificult to set-up, hate priority users but can sweep quite easily), while cloyster have a higher Base Stab, and a higher defense to set-up, but slurpuff have a lot of qualities, like a better buff, a better coverage( i can't think a single Pokemon that resists to Fairy/FIghting/Normal simultaneously excpet from Gengar) and it's very dificult ot counter him. in comparison to Azu, he can Switch moves while still outspeeding offensive threats, but Puff have more dificult to set-up, cause don't have the same pressure that azu have, so Puff have to set-up against salbeye and other passives things, or use some support mons like whimsicott or azelf. now i will show some calcs:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 351-414 (135.5 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 294-347 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 359-423 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron: 556-656 (161.6 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You miscalculated that calc, for it does not calc Aggron as a Mega (though Aggron isn't even common in OU so why are you calcing it anyways?); the calc should look like this:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Also, for pro-ranking Slurpuff arguments, you also need to argue about whether or not Slurpuff's overall qualities compensate for its inability to threaten much without a Belly Drum, and how it is very reliant on getting that Belly Drum to be threatening when the majority of the metagame is capable of discouraging Slurpuff from getting a BD off, or being able to stop it even after it boosts to +6. This is really Slurpuff's issue on whether or not it should be ranked, and is the main reason why Azumarill is considered a better Belly Drum user. Somebody mentioned that BD Azumarill is reliant on Aqua Jet to pick off weakened foes, but the opponent's team will usually be weakened enough for Azumarill to clean using a +6 Aqua Jet, so that is not necessarily an issue. Slurpuff does not necessarily have better coverage because Azumarill has a small handful of options to use on its Belly Drum set that can be catered to its team's needs, whereas Slurpuff does not.

 

[green gadgets]

I think Charizard X should stay in A+.
Zard X stays for pure power but Flare Blitz have high recoil damage and Outrage is a Lock Move, so your opponennt can switch in counters and kill it. If you run Roost your missing EQ or Iron Tail. The high use of Rocky Helmet hurts it's durability. Also Priority Moves and Stealth Rock are big minus, for S Rank. It needs in my Opinion too much support, for S-Rank.