Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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----> A

I really think that this might be one of the most underrated threats (and bulky win conditions) out there. I disagree that regular calm mind slowbro can take 'the same' place but without taking up the mega slot. We have to count that regular Slowbro needs to be full defense, because if you invest a lot in spdef on the purpose of being stopped harder by things like his checks after one calm mind (slowbro mostly needs this), you will end up in being stopped by physical attackers, and you can not switch in some powerful physical attacks, unlike classic full def slowbro. Sure, you lose regenerator which is a very important ability for Slowbro; because of this, you need to know when it's the moment to mega evolve Slowbro (to keep your momentum), which in my opinion compensates the loss of Regenerator with his insane capability. While you will have a kind of disadvantage in terms of bulk when you keep normal Slowbro with Mega (SpDef) into his normal form to keep regenerator, Mega Slowbro can be a pain in the ass to deal with. His insane bulk allows to deal with both physical and special attackers. You will have over 400 points of physical defense with Mega Slowbro, even if you invest a lot in spdef. You will end up having a stupid, lazy and ignorant pokèmon which is impossible to even break his armor to kick his ass, even after one calm mind. Shell Armor will keep a safe spam of slack off as you don't fear critical hits, you can also choose to modify your Evs according to your weaknesses. Like slowbro, mega slowbro doesn't appreciate status, especially bad poison. Even if you try to status mega slowbro, it won't be enough to stop him from slaughter the opposing pokes by dint of boosted Scalds and Psyshocks. So even if you wear down mega slowbro thanks to status, or by other stuff, he has probably already done his task: destroy the opponent's team, or at least, a great portion. He has flaws, mostly due to the loss of regenerator, difficulty to recover if there are hazards and sometimes the obligation of sacking it, and these flaws might surely let Mega Slowbro unable to satisfy A+ or S rank even with these incredible capabilities, but nonetheless, it's surely worth for A rank.


56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Mega Slowbro can pp stall his fusion bolt with Slack off btw)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 220 SpD Mega Slowbro: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO

+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 220 SpD Mega Slowbro: 157-187 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 103-123 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
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----> A
I really think that this might be one of the most underrated threats (and bulky win conditions) out there. I disagree that regular calm mind slowbro can take 'the same' place but without taking up the mega slot. We have to count that regular Slowbro needs to be full defense, because if you invest a lot in spdef on the purpose of being stopped harder by things like his checks after one calm mind (slowbro mostly needs this), you will end up in being stopped by physical attackers, and you can not switch in some powerful physical attacks, as opposed to full def slowbro. Sure, you lose regenerator which is a very important ability for Slowbro; because of this, you need to know when it's the moment to mega evolve Slowbro (to keep your momentum), which in my opinion compensates the loss of Regenerator with his insane capability. While you will have a kind of disadvantage in terms of bulk when you keep normal Slowbro with Mega (SpDef) into his normal form to keep regenerator, Mega Slowbro can be a pain in the ass to deal with. His insane bulk allows to deal with both physical and special attackers. You will have over 400 points of physical defense with Mega Slowbro, even if you invest a lot in spdef. You will end up having a stupid, lazy and ignorant pokèmon which is impossible to even break his armor to kick his ass, even after one calm mind. Shell Armor will keep a safe spam of slack off as you don't fear critical hits, you can also choose to modify your Evs according to your weaknesses. Like slowbro, mega slowbro doesn't appreciate status, especially bad poison. Even if you try to status mega slowbro, it won't be enough to stop him from slaughter the opposing pokes by dint of boosted Scalds and Psyshocks. So even if you wear down mega slowbro thanks to status, or by other stuff, he has probably already done his task: destroy the opponent's team, or, at least a great portion. He has flaws, mostly due to the loss of regenerator, difficulty to recover if there are hazards and sometimes the obligation of sacking it, and these flaws might surely let Mega Slowbro unable to satisfy A+ or S rank even with these incredible capabilities, but nonetheless, it's surely worth of A rank.


56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Mega Slowbro can pp stall his fusion bolt with Slack off btw)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 220 SpD Mega Slowbro: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO

+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 220 SpD Mega Slowbro: 157-187 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 103-123 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I agree with this. Mega slowbros got quite a few niches over non mega bro. For one its not destroyed by knock off (or any physical move lol) on top of this its a fantastic and annoying physical wall thats not passive combined with some coverage that can hit pretty hard. Like seriously the moment this thing begins setting up cms it becomes near impossible to kill. Also those double dance sets are really annoying lol. Its pretty nice to have a water type that can not only wall really well but also hit stuff like ferrothorn which pretty much always annoy water types. Not to mention this thing takes stuff like kyu-bs fusion bolts like a champ which is really cool. Makes for a nice win con and wall.
 
Rotom -> A-: it's the general consensus. Move on pls

Mega Venu -> A+: need a full Azu counter? Keldeo counter? Serp counter? What about {insert fairy type here}? Well, Venu is your man. His great bulk coupled with his great typing and ability make him one of the most reliable moons to run on balance currently, because it alone removes a heavy strain on teambuilding. When ORAS first came out ppl slept on him (including myself), but now that the meta has 'settled', Venu has found himself being used again. For a while now I've seen him as a greater threat than the rest of the A rank, and I feel a rise is warranted due to the fact that he handles so much for the one low payment of one mega slot.
I second this. He is sometimes overlooked. If your team is not already centered around a mega then Mega Venusaur is a really good choice to fill the gaps and cover up for the weakness. Not to mention that this is the only pokemon that can counter all variants of Mega Altaria.
 
In my opinion, Mega Slowbro is the most underrated mon in the tier at the moment (maybe bar a couple things) One thing that everyone is completely ignoring is that Mega Slowbro can also run a very effective double dance set that can make it almost invincible after a boost or two in each stat, considering its monstrous defenses while boosting its attacking prowess. a set of cm iron defense scald and slack off can set up on many different mons in the tier from Heatran to Keldeo to even Mega Metagross (cm+slack off wins 1v1 even vs GK). Nothing wants to switch into scald, and calm mind makes it even more powerful and difficult to switch into scald. Slowbro can easily sweep teams after a boost or two, and it is so incredibly bulky that basically nothing in the tier can take it down after a boost in either defensive stat. Slowbro also has a very repectable base 130 special attacking stat, so it packs quite a bunch with STAB scald, even if it is uninvested. Taking all of these facts into account, i think that it is perfectly acceptable to raise slowbro to A rank, maybe even A+ if you want to stretch it. I will go get some replays just to show how effective mega slowbro is.

Slowbro to A
 

Albacore

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Will comment on some of the crapton of noms we've just had later on but let me just add something to the list b/c fuck you.

Reuiniclus -> B+
Okay is it just me or is this thing really good? I sincerely can't see this on the same level as any B rank right now, it's pretty much better than every single one of them besides maybe Scizor. CM is a great wincon that beats other CM and stallbreaks really well in general, all you really need is Sableye and the occasional Gliscor removed and it puts in a ton of work. Obviously very good vs balance teams too, and its immediate bulk makes it pretty good against offense as well since it can come in on stuff like Keldeo and Thundurus and wall them. There's pretty much no matchup where it won't preform well, I mean yeah it's kinda Purusit bait but it's bulky enough where it takes Pursuits well enough to stay in on most trappers and can put them in a 50/50 situations. It really thrives in a metagame full of bulky teams which rely on hazards, not only becuase it performs so well against them but also becuase it fits really well on them too.

It does get competition from Clefable obviously and kinda has a hard time choosing between Shadow Ball and Focus Blast, but the increase in bulk and power is pretty noticeable, as well as the fact that it's just not prepared for at all atm. It's also not completely one-dimensional, sure CM is the best set but it can also run lure sets like Colbur Berry+Regen which is actually pretty hilarious when it pays off, or even LO Max SpA which hits pretty damn hard, even harder than Modest MZam just to give you an idea, but with the added benefit of actually being able to switch into things. So yeah I think this is just as good as, if not better than the likes of Suicune and Slowking and fits more in B+ than in B.
 
Fyi I rather move stuff in the B ranks down rather than up with the exception of those in b+ rank inclined for a-. Consider mega venusaur, mega slowbro, reuniclus, mega medichan, mega tyranitar, scolipede discussions points. When I get to a computer Ill make a more snazzy looking post with stuff I forgot from yesterday that ranking team was thinking about.

Ranking team can tact on whatever to this post.
 
Fyi I rather move stuff in the B ranks down rather than up with the exception of those in b+ rank inclined for a-. Consider mega venusaur, mega slowbro, reuniclus, mega medichan, mega tyranitar, scolipede discussions points. When I get to a computer Ill make a more snazzy looking post with stuff I forgot from yesterday that ranking team was thinking about.

Ranking team can tact on whatever to this post.
Mega Venusaur from A to A+ is a must. It can effectively run two sets that are both really tough for the majority of teams to deal with. It's tank set hits hard while shrugging off damage from many common attackers while its wall sets stops just about every fighting, grass, fairy, and water type without fail and has enough bulk to take neutral hits from all but the most powerful wall breakers. Sure running Mega Venu has a bit more of a drawback in ORAS than it did in XY, but it's potentially even better at what it does with the potent new fairies of the tier. I generally don't run Mega Venu, but it's annoying to just about every team I run outside of my most recent mega pinsir team.
 

Martin

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Will comment on some of the crapton of noms we've just had later on but let me just add something to the list b/c fuck you.

Reuiniclus -> B+
Okay is it just me or is this thing really good? I sincerely can't see this on the same level as any B rank right now, it's pretty much better than every single one of them besides maybe Scizor. CM is a great wincon that beats other CM and stallbreaks really well in general, all you really need is Sableye and the occasional Gliscor removed and it puts in a ton of work. Obviously very good vs balance teams too, and its immediate bulk makes it pretty good against offense as well since it can come in on stuff like Keldeo and Thundurus and wall them. There's pretty much no matchup where it won't preform well, I mean yeah it's kinda Purusit bait but it's bulky enough where it takes Pursuits well enough to stay in on most trappers and can put them in a 50/50 situations. It really thrives in a metagame full of bulky teams which rely on hazards, not only becuase it performs so well against them but also becuase it fits really well on them too.

It does get competition from Clefable obviously and kinda has a hard time choosing between Shadow Ball and Focus Blast, but the increase in bulk and power is pretty noticeable, as well as the fact that it's just not prepared for at all atm. It's also not completely one-dimensional, sure CM is the best set but it can also run lure sets like Colbur Berry+Regen which is actually pretty hilarious when it pays off, or even LO Max SpA which hits pretty damn hard, even harder than Modest MZam just to give you an idea, but with the added benefit of actually being able to switch into things. So yeah I think this is just as good as, if not better than the likes of Suicune and Slowking and fits more in B+ than in B.
Personally, I agree with this. Albacore pretty much covered everything here, and tbh I'd argue that this monster is even more underrated than M-Bro and M-Venu are. The only thing that I'll tack onto this is that there are a number of things that this thing checks that non-Stored Power Clefable simply doesn't (namely Poison-types like M-Venu (OTR also beats Gengar), but also certain Steel-types that Clefable has trouble with - depending on your choice between Focus Blast (beats Ferrothorn and Heatran etc.) and Shadow Ball (beats Metagross and Bronzong etc.).
 
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Srn

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Rotom -> A-: it's the general consensus. Move on pls

Mega Venu -> A+: need a full Azu counter? Keldeo counter? Serp counter? What about {insert fairy type here}? Well, Venu is your man. His great bulk coupled with his great typing and ability make him one of the most reliable moons to run on balance currently, because it alone removes a heavy strain on teambuilding. When ORAS first came out ppl slept on him (including myself), but now that the meta has 'settled', Venu has found himself being used again. For a while now I've seen him as a greater threat than the rest of the A rank, and I feel a rise is warranted due to the fact that he handles so much for the one low payment of one mega slot.
Well i'd love for that to be true but you see...
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +2 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If mega venu switches into clef as clef calm minds up,
mvenu then hits it for the first calc, as clef cm's again.
Then mvenu hits it for the second calc and clef soft-boils....
If its t-wave, then clef will be able to move faster too. Stored power will beat mvenu much quicker than flamethrower will, but both will beat it in the end if the player chooses to run them.

Ultimately, mvenu doesn't counter the most prominent and versatile fairy mon of them all, and that's a bummer.
Misconception aside, mvenu is fully deserving of A+
 
Rotom-W for A- Everyone else said enough about it, I can't add anything, other than I'm not sure where the notion that it's a stall breaker came from, outside of Trick, but that only works once, and not on Megas. When you think of a stallbreaker you think of something usually with Taunt and the ability to shutdown the enemy's means of passive damage/recovery, or is something that is immune to many forms of passive damage.

And again, I don't think Celebi should drop. Celebi is almost never a liability on my teams, usually an MVP with the immense support it brings. Yes, it has numerous poor match ups 1v1, but in terms of support for your team it is straight up A-. It is ridiculously customizable, able to bring Clefable levels of support if need be, but a niche with far better 100/100/100 defenses and speed, compared to 95/73/90 defenses, and while Clefable's typing and abilities are better, Celebi still offers unique benefits with its own resistances and immunity to status. Plus, if people are vouching for things like Alakazam and Mega Venusaur to rise than Celebi will be more relevant, not less. SpD sets are my favorite and it can easily survive an Alakazam Shadow Ball and use Thunder Wave, or bop Venusaur with STAB Psychic if it becomes prominent.

252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO

164+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (never mind Giga Drain)

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 97-115 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 234-282 (57.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 294-348 (112.6 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Celebi is simply really good against balance and bulky offense, and provides numerous support roles in one, can lure extremely well, and just has great natural bulk and so many good attack and support options your opponent can never guess effectively before seeing your set. All relevant threats like Weavile, Tornadus-T, etc are all relevant points, but not enough to drop, especially not considering the amount of unique positive match ups it has, being such a good answer to Keldeo, Serperior, Slowbro (Mega), Slowking, Breloom, Rotom-W, Starmie, Mega Gardevoir, and just so much more. Also doesn't give a shit about the popular Tankchomp, resisting EQ and naturally heals Toxic switching out. I often paralyze 1-2 opponents and use Healing Wish to revive my sweeper in most matches, all while being a good pivot. That's good team support right there.
 
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I want to nominate Politoed to b+ because i dont see the logic if all the good swift swimmers are ranked b+ how is that this freaking frog is in -A; the way i see is that politoed is only ranked for his rain services but nothing more and if all the swift swimmers are b+ means that rain is a b+ playstyle then politoed should move down to b+.
 

Martin

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I want to nominate Politoed to b+ because i dont see the logic if all the good swift swimmers are ranked b+ how is that this freaking frog is in -A; the way i see is that politoed is only ranked for his rain services but nothing more and if all the swift swimmers are b+ means that rain is a b+ playstyle then politoed should move down to b+.
Its in A+ because it literally holds an entire playstyle on its back. I've nommed it to go down before and been shut down for that one reason, and now I agree with it.
 
I want to nominate Politoed to b+ because i dont see the logic if all the good swift swimmers are ranked b+ how is that this freaking frog is in -A; the way i see is that politoed is only ranked for his rain services but nothing more and if all the swift swimmers are b+ means that rain is a b+ playstyle then politoed should move down to b+.
Lol it's literally the face of an entire playstyle and that playstyle is very good and underrated. Politoed should stay A-.

edit: double ninja ._.
 
Its a great playstyle because of the swift swimmers but it has a terrible setter unlike sand offense, so if rain is that great why kingdra is not in A-?
Politoed is the ONLY automatic setter, how can you say it's a bad setter? Also, a rain team with Politoed doesn't need Kingdra, but a team with Swift Swim Kingdra (the only good one) needs Politoed, the only rain setter. I.e. every rain team needs Politoed, but not every rain team needs Kingdra
 
Yep, that. Not to mention it's not a terrible mon on its own; it has a pretty solid support movepool and, while not anybody's definition of a fat water, can take some decent hits.
Yeah its decent but you cant compare him to the other A- ranks and its own it kinda sucks its slow and weak, also stacks weakness with the swift swimmers (which is the reason to use rain no because rain itself is good like last gen).
Politoed is the ONLY automatic setter, how can you say it's a bad setter? Also, a rain team with Politoed doesn't need Kingdra, but a team with Swift Swim Kingdra (the only good one) needs Politoed, the only rain setter. I.e. every rain team needs Politoed, but not every rain team needs Kingdra
Still rain kinda sucks, u can say that rain is a little underated and it is but it doesnt destroy offense so mindless like it was in XY, mega altaria, manaphy, serperior, toxicroak, celebi, mega neta wuth grass knot, azumarill, breloom, keldeo all of them are very popular in offense and they have good match up vs rain, so not only rain has a hard match up vs balance and stall where ferro, slowking or bro, celebi, chesnaught, amoongus and walls that will never die are everywhere but offense can still fight back, there is a reason why rain has dropped in usage.
 
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Yeah its decent but you cant compare him to the other A- ranks and its own it kinda sucks its slow and weak, also stacks weakness with the swift swimmers (which is the reason to use rain no because rain itself is good like last gen).

Still rain kinda sucks, u can say that rain is a little underated and it is but it doesnt destroy offense so mindless like it was in XY, mega altaria, manaphy, serperior, toxicroak, celebi, mega neta wuth grass knot, azumarill, breloom, keldeo all of them are very popular in offense and they have good match up vs rain, so not only rain has a hard match up vs balance and stall where ferro, slowking or bro, celebi, chesnaught, amoongus and walls that will never die are everywhere but offense can still fight back, there is a reason why rain has dropped in usage.
Omastar literally destroys all of those with his coverage moves bar Manaphy but Manaphy doesn't like eating a Draco Meteor from Kingdra and can't OHKO Kindgra without serious prior damage (which is plausible cuz Life Orb and rocks and blah blah blah) at +3 so... lolyeah.

Edit: Draco Meteor + Outrage if you aren't dumb but this was pretty simplified so yea.
 
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I want to nominate Politoed to b+ because i dont see the logic if all the good swift swimmers are ranked b+ how is that this freaking frog is in -A; the way i see is that politoed is only ranked for his rain services but nothing more and if all the swift swimmers are b+ means that rain is a b+ playstyle then politoed should move down to b+.
Yeah its decent but you cant compare him to the other A- ranks and its own it kinda sucks its slow and weak, also stacks weakness with the swift swimmers (which is the reason to use rain no because rain itself is good like last gen).

Still rain kinda sucks, u can say that rain is a little underated and it is but it doesnt destroy offense so mindless like it was in XY, mega altaria, manaphy, serperior, toxicroak, celebi, mega neta wuth grass knot, azumarill, breloom, keldeo all of them are very popular in offense and they have good match up vs rain, so not only rain has a hard match up vs balance and stall where ferro, slowking or bro, celebi, chesnaught, amoongus and walls that will never die are everywhere but offense can still fight back, there is a reason why rain has dropped in usage.
Politoed is in the A-ranks under the support characteristic because he basically fuels an entire playstyle and rain would be unviable without him, whereas rain is still viable after any individual Pokemon that abuses rain is not avaliable to use. For example, rain doesn't lose all of its viability if it loses Kingdra because sweepers are replacable whereas Pokemon provide as much team support as Politoed are not. Also, there are also rain sweepers that fullfil a certain job that rain wants one of its mons to do that can be somewhat filled by another mon that can bring something new to the table or just replace the other sweepr. A couple examples of this would be kingdra being special and killing dragons being replaced by Omastar who can smash and use rock STAB while still being special but cant take out dragons that aren't super weak to ice beam as well as having a worse match up vs grass types, swampert absorbing twaves and electric attacks being replaced by Seismitoed who can attack from the special side, take out ferro effeciently, but not packing as much power as swampert. Politoed isn't even as crappy as you say it is because it has a decent 90/105 (off the top of my head) special bulk along with great support options (perish song, encore, etc.) that can allow it to be a decent special tank that can pivot in and restart rain for your team after it runs out, not requiring you to use a move to set it up. Politoed on its own might be C- or C rank in the thread without drizzle (maybe a bit higher because of support movepool), but it does such an amazing job supporting the team with its ability, as it holds the entire play style on its back. Also, pertaining to the threats that you mentioned in the second post, rain can deal with them, but they can be dealt with mainly because Politoed can switch in and automatically set up rain. MegaAlt cannot switch into specs ice beam from Kingdra or Omastar, a very common attack on rain, but requires rain to be set up for omastar, or for both if it is a DD variant and if it survives one of the other sweepers on the team can finish it off. Toxicroak is not that common, but Megapert can comfortably take any hit from it on the switch in and KO with earthquake. Mega Metagross is one shotted by Kingdra if it has taken basically any chip damage or if there are hazards up. Celebi cannot do anything to Kingdra while Kingdra easily 2HKOs with ice beam. Azumarill is smashed by Hydro Pump from Omastar while Omastar can literally take any attack bar banded Superpower. Breloom isn't too common either, but it is easily dispatched by Kingdra and omastar basically using any move on their movesets. Lastly, Keldeo gets destroyed by Kingdra while basicallly doing nothing back in return. The walls on stall can easily be 2HKO'd by rain sweepers with the right coverage if not straight OHKO'd. So, rain is a very viable playstyle that can beat multiple playstyles, and Politoed needs to stay in A- because it carries the playstyle on its back.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 248-294 (85.2 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 284-336 (97.5 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Swampert: 129-152 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 564-666 (183.7 - 216.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross in Rain: 286-339 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 84-100 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Celebi: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 448-528 (171.6 - 202.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 307-362 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 224-264 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 424-501 (162.4 - 191.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 394-464 (150.9 - 177.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 221-261 (84.6 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 270-318 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 307-363 (95 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 144-171 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
Keep Politoed in A-

Edit: Replays because replays are fun (still adding more):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-238073016
 
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Tyranitar-Mega from B- to B: In the current metagame, Tyranitar is once again a potent sweeper against the omnipresent balance builds. Tyranitar still has the same ridiculous bulk and coverage it always had, but now teams are simply not prepared for the mega DD set. The common switchins to Tyranitar, such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Hippowdon, and Clefable, are all potentially beaten by the right Mega set. Mega Tyranitar's great bulk allows it to set up easily, and also tank a hit from the pokemon that are supposed to wall/revenge it. For example, Mega Scizor's bullet punch only does (84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 138-164 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), and Clefable's moonblast only does (0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Almost all of the common switchins are beaten by either STABs or great coverage in the form of EQ, the elemental punches, and even aerial ace. This pokemon may have fallen off for a bit but at the moment it is a very effective sweeper that has at least B viability in the OverUsed metagame.
 
Politoed is in the A-ranks under the support characteristic because he basically fuels an entire playstyle and rain would be unviable without him, whereas rain is still viable after any individual Pokemon that abuses rain is not avaliable to use. For example, rain doesn't lose all of its viability if it loses Kingdra because sweepers are replacable whereas Pokemon provide as much team support as Politoed are not. Also, there are also rain sweepers that fullfil a certain job that rain wants one of its mons to do that can be somewhat filled by another mon that can bring something new to the table or just replace the other sweepr. A couple examples of this would be kingdra being special and killing dragons being replaced by Omastar who can smash and use rock STAB while still being special but cant take out dragons that aren't super weak to ice beam as well as having a worse match up vs grass types, swampert absorbing twaves and electric attacks being replaced by Seismitoed who can attack from the special side, take out ferro effeciently, but not packing as much power as swampert. Politoed isn't even as crappy as you say it is because it has a decent 90/105 (off the top of my head) special bulk along with great support options (perish song, encore, etc.) that can allow it to be a decent special tank that can pivot in and restart rain for your team after it runs out, not requiring you to use a move to set it up. Politoed on its own might be C- or C rank in the thread without drizzle (maybe a bit higher because of support movepool), but it does such an amazing job supporting the team with its ability, as it holds the entire play style on its back. Also, pertaining to the threats that you mentioned in the second post, rain can deal with them, but they can be dealt with mainly because Politoed can switch in and automatically set up rain. MegaAlt cannot switch into specs ice beam from Kingdra or Omastar, a very common attack on rain, but requires rain to be set up for omastar, or for both if it is a DD variant and if it survives one of the other sweepers on the team can finish it off. Toxicroak is not that common, but Megapert can comfortably take any hit from it on the switch in and KO with earthquake. Mega Metagross is one shotted by Kingdra if it has taken basically any chip damage or if there are hazards up. Celebi cannot do anything to Kingdra while Kingdra easily 2HKOs with ice beam. Azumarill is smashed by Hydro Pump from Omastar while Omastar can literally take any attack bar banded Superpower. Breloom isn't too common either, but it is easily dispatched by Kingdra and omastar basically using any move on their movesets. Lastly, Keldeo gets destroyed by Kingdra while basicallly doing nothing back in return. The walls on stall can easily be 2HKO'd by rain sweepers with the right coverage if not straight OHKO'd. So, rain is a very viable playstyle that can beat multiple playstyles, and Politoed needs to stay in A- because it carries the playstyle on its back.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 248-294 (85.2 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 284-336 (97.5 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Swampert: 129-152 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 564-666 (183.7 - 216.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross in Rain: 286-339 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 84-100 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Celebi: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 448-528 (171.6 - 202.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 307-362 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 224-264 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 424-501 (162.4 - 191.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 394-464 (150.9 - 177.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 221-261 (84.6 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Rain: 270-318 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 307-363 (95 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 144-171 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
Keep Politoed in A-

Edit: Replays because replays are fun (still adding more):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-238073016
Sorry but i cant take that replay seriously when ur opponent was such a shitty low ladder noob (dig chomp and lich gengar... -_-), if u want to show a point at least use high ladder matches or tour matches, yeah now i understand the point of why politoed is -A rank while the frog really sucks hard (I said it was weak offensively not defensively he can take some hits) the provided utility of setting rain on his own makes politoed the foundations of rain playstyle and maybe he provides more support to rain builds than the sweepers because balance rain is a playstyle, however all this calcs seem favorable to rain but then u not account the different situations that a real battle has in place like u are not going to put specs hydra sucks and if u are locked on the wrong move something can set up on u so any serious player knows life orb mix so u are not walled by chansey, mega meta wins 1 vs 1if swampert.has not evolve it and specs dra sucks, Altaria was bad news to kingdra even if ice beam 2 kos altaria can 1ko back, my point is that if u dont one shot the opposing offensive poke sure it will ko back and like they said rain is not a consistent playstyle because if ur politoed dies (yes it will probably die sooner than later because normally he set ups rain on the first turn then he sacks himself when he does the second time) u lose. At least sand offense only needs 2 slots for exca + tyranitar or hippo while rain needs the entire team or at least 3 slots to work fine.
 
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Omastar literally destroys all of those with his coverage moves bar Manaphy
Hardly. Earth Power and Ice beam don't exceed hydro pump's damage under rain unless they manage to to have a 4x multiplier (or are SE while they resist hydro pump). It does a poor job of killing most of the defensive mons listed. It would be pathetic if it couldn't take down the offensive ones, but that doesnt matter because offense doesnt succeed by trying to tank hits from wallbreakers.

The main issue is that it's a weather reliant choiced mon. For stall teams you can scout using something that can eat a hydro pump and then double switch if its a coverage move because any half decent wall that can do that will sponge its coverage move as well. It's possible to burn turns of rain while getting in a status here or there such that all they have to do is survive. I never play stall, but looking at calcs against amoongus or chansey I don't really see it being hard to sponge attacks from.

For offensive teams you have to rely on sashs/priority if it gets a free switch, usually sacking something and then hopefully having something that can threaten it back (which has a very real chance of threatening kingdra as well and thus sucks up turns of rain while they try to get another opportunity to get damage in). Offensive teams also put much more pressure on politoed in the first place. Poli isn't like tyranitar, it get's 2hko'd pretty easily by neutral damage on a good number of offensive mons, so it can't easily switch in without pivots or dead teammates. The rain sweepers have the same issue, especially being choiced. The details really depend on the team but its more than possible to give weather sweepers a hard time without fighting them directly.


I mean, it is a fast wallbreaker/sweeper. It does a shitload of damage whenever it comes in and can sweep after very little setup. However that's not really a special quality anymore. There are tons of mons that do that. Using rain sweepers obviously comes with the luxury of super fast wallbreakers but it also introduces the vulnerability in their reliance on rain that can be played around.

His point isn't that rain teams are good (which they are) so the opposing team doesn't matter. What he's trying to show is that Politoed is basically the backbone of any rain team: you aren't going to use manual setters and Kyogre is banned. It doesn't matter what Politoed can or can't kill; rather the fact that it is the sole reason why rain exists is enough to make it A-, as no other pokemon has this unique trait (Tyranitar and Hippo for sand, CharY and Ninetales for sun, and no one uses hail lol but Abomasnow I guess).
And guat's point was that the replay really doesn't represent that, and he's right. For Politoed's rank to be validated, you really have to show that rain as a playstyle is A- in itself and defeating a horrid team like that doesn't show that at all.

I mean I can make the case that abomasnow is the only reason hail can exist as a strategy, but that doesn't make him A- because hail is awful.
 
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