Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[BlazeLatias]

I'm not a huge fan of comparing Dragonite to the Mega DDers just because it does not take up a mega slot, which is an overused (hehe) argument it still has a lot of merit. Dragonite still has considerable coverage options and with Defog support can set up a DD against just about anything. CB is still a great wallbreaker and revenge killer.

The reason I don't think it should rise to A- is because Clefable and Altaria are both fantastic right now. I would argue it is one of the better pokemon in B+ though.

Disgusting pun.
Anyways i personally have to agree with bludz on this. Dragonite has quite a few good merits and +2 priority in e speed is fantastic but dragonites competition is pretty huge. I mean we got malt,chary-x,mega gyara all of which give dragonite a huge amount of competition not to mention while none of them do get priority they have several other pluses over dnite. Hes by no mean bad but he does not have it easy. being rock weak also hurts multiscale which is annoying. Anyways i hope im not dragon this talk about dnite any longer then it should.

 

[Jaroda]

Just wanted to point out that Ferrothorn and Skarmory aren't exactly the biggest defensive threats for Dragonite as Fire Punch is a common sight on sets for that very reason. Also, I don't think Dragonite deserves A-. It certainly doesn't strike me as being on as equal footing as things like Gyarados, Serperior and Alakazam. The big point is that the arguments for it to rise are the same arguments made for it regardless of what rank its in. We know what it does. WHY is what it does in the meta better or more useful than where it was a month ago, or even before Lando-I's banning?

 

[Puralux]

Tentacruel -> A-

Reasoning: Tentacruel has quite a niche against one of the S rank mons in OU being clefable. Clefable will lose to tentacruel every single time unless it is carrying psyshock which although it gets, I've yet to see on carry that on the ladder. Tentacruel aside from being a pretty standard bulky water also has the ability to spin which is always useful as well as a part poison type giving it weaknesses to ground and psychic but giving it a key resistance to fairy. Thus is resists the two main attacking moves clefable usually carries (moonblast/flamethrower). It can lower clefable's special defense faster than it can raise it with acid spray and eventually just finish if off with sludge bomb/wave (I personally run bomb but you can run wave). I believe A- isn't too far up in viability that this suggestion should be ignored.

Conclusion: Tentacruel is a decent bulky water that completely counters Clefable as well as being able to do some other stuff like spin and knock off.

lol A-, really? Having a niche against one pokemon or a couple of pokemon is clearly not enough and not a justification for that high rank. Tentacruel needs to compete also with other high ranked mons where Tentacruel struggles. A ranked mons performs very well in the metagame, are a strong presence in the metagame, and have few flaws, conditions that Tentacruel doesn't acquire. Tentacruel has a low speed tier (Has Speed 100 BST, which is in the average, but he needs defensive evs to be considered a bulky water, so if you invest in speed, you will renounce to some defense/hp), and with that trash physical defense a lot of fast mons benefits (Psyshock users an example). The biggest lack of tentacruel, one of the flaws which prevents him from being A-, is a viable recovery move. Also, do you know that Clefable user doesn't die instantly and that can switch into a tentacruel check instead of taking an acid spray (it's a 40 BP move, dude), and that moreover he can weaken him with Thunder wave?

 

[teamsnickers]

Im going to non Pidgeot (Mega) to B-. No guard is a great ability and Pidgeot has a fantasic 115 speed slot... Its decent movepool (refresh,heat wave, hurricane, u turn, roost,work up) allows for some innovative sets and Pidgeot can be a pain to balanced and ho teams. With some support this thing can be a nice little juggernaut in some teams and IMO Its on par or above Mega houndoom (who is B-). Its work up set is a beastly stallbreaker also and a GREAT lure.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Alright so infernape is something that I think deserves a nom in this meta infested by weavile. Before I go into depth I can't see nape on the same level as mega doom lol. As a offensive fire fighting type nape is pretty much Thriving in this meta where weaviles,m scizor and other threats are on every team. nape not only has crazy unrivaled coverage options but also has pretty solid utility and TWO ways to boost any ONE of its offensive stats which allow it to go mixed. were talking gunk shot for fairies,grass knot for hippowdon,overheat to bop landorus-t, hp ice for fatchomps,t punch for waters and much more. Then there's napes defensive set, this set makes for a great answer to weavile,bish, and a few other mons while burning them with wisp,taunt to cripple hazard leads,slack off to continue checking said mons and hell can even run rocks making offensive sets a great lead. Seriously its as fast as KELDEO but has priority,coverage and more. Being frails no problem when your a wallbreaker. This things needs to move up it's not on the same level as lucario,doom. Also oras good cores is getting much more nape love now so that says something.
B- to B

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Im going to non Pidgeot (Mega) to B-. No guard is a great ability and Pidgeot has a fantasic 115 speed slot... Its decent movepool (refresh,heat wave, hurricane, u turn, roost,work up) allows for some innovative sets and Pidgeot can be a pain to balanced and ho teams. With some support this thing can be a nice little juggernaut in some teams and IMO Its on par or above Mega houndoom (who is B-). Its work up set is a beastly stallbreaker also and a GREAT lure.

I strongly disagree with this nom. Pidgeot is not better or even on par with Megadoom. Megadoom can be a powerful wallbreaker with a similar speed tier, being able to set up in the face of some common threats like Mega Scizor (without Superpower) or Mega Sableye. Given team support Megadoom can clean up the game on its own. Also, the weakness to Stealth Rocks combined with lack-luster bulk is a problem that demands more and more team support.
No Guard, while a good ability for a Hurricane spammer, is a double-edged sword. Not only does it make sure that your attacks can not miss, but it also assures enemy Stone Edges to hit. Pidgeot has no viable way around Tyranitar, mega or not. Mega Zard Y's Fire Blast is also guaranteed to land due to No Guard, so presenting this as a complete positive is inaccurate. It is an advantage for Pidgeot all the time, but can also be an advantage to the enemy at times. While 83/80/80 is not extremely frail, it is not bulky at all; Pidgeot is just frail enough to go down to basically all Rock type attack users.
On the offensive side, Hurricane spam is potent, yet EXTREMELY predictable. Pidgeot's coverage is laughable, using almost two attacking moves exclusively. Even if you decide to add a third in Hyper Beam, it becomes set up fodder. Of course you can run U-Turn to gather momentum, but even then if I wanted a Pokemon that gains momentum I have plenty of other options.

tl;dr Pidgeot is a Mega slot user that has one of the worst movepools of any mega and leaves a lot to be desired. Outside of Hurricane spam (which Torn-T does better even when accounting for misses) Pidgeot is worthless. It does not compare to the threats of B- and is a shaky pick for C+ from my experience; no one I have ever had trouble with has used Mega Pidgeot, nor have I seen high level play with this Pokemon.

 

[teamsnickers]

I strongly disagree with this nom. Pidgeot is not better or even on par with Megadoom. Megadoom can be a powerful wallbreaker with a similar speed tier, being able to set up in the face of some common threats like Mega Scizor (without Superpower) or Mega Sableye. Given team support Megadoom can clean up the game on its own. Also, the weakness to Stealth Rocks combined with lack-luster bulk is a problem that demands more and more team support.
No Guard, while a good ability for a Hurricane spammer, is a double-edged sword. Not only does it make sure that your attacks can not miss, but it also assures enemy Stone Edges to hit. Pidgeot has no viable way around Tyranitar, mega or not. Mega Zard Y's Fire Blast is also guaranteed to land due to No Guard, so presenting this as a complete positive is inaccurate. It is an advantage for Pidgeot all the time, but can also be an advantage to the enemy at times. While 83/80/80 is not extremely frail, it is not bulky at all; Pidgeot is just frail enough to go down to basically all Rock type attack users.
On the offensive side, Hurricane spam is potent, yet EXTREMELY predictable. Pidgeot's coverage is laughable, using almost two attacking moves exclusively. Even if you decide to add a third in Hyper Beam, it becomes set up fodder. Of course you can run U-Turn to gather momentum, but even then if I wanted a Pokemon that gains momentum I have plenty of other options.

tl;dr Pidgeot is a Mega slot user that has one of the worst movepools of any mega and leaves a lot to be desired. Outside of Hurricane spam (which Torn-T does better even when accounting for misses) Pidgeot is worthless. It does not compare to the threats of B- and is a shaky pick for C+ from my experience; no one I have ever had trouble with has used Mega Pidgeot, nor have I seen high level play with this Pokemon.

I guess you have not used Mega Pidgeot alot before, its work up set is one of the best wall/stall breakers in the meta with refresh, and it can set up on ALOT more then just mega sab and mega scizor, heat wave and hurricane is actually decent coverage (depending on the set it can uturn out on tran) and they have the same speed tier.. if you're using mega pidgeot for ttar then you're using it wrong

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I guess you have not used Mega Pidgeot alot before, its work up set is one of the best wall/stall breakers in the meta with refresh, and it can set up on ALOT more then just mega sab and mega scizor, heat wave and hurricane is actually decent coverage (depending on the set it can uturn out on tran) and they have the same speed tier.. if you're using mega pidgeot for ttar then you're using it wrong

Sorry but I am completely unfamiliar with this Work Up set, as I have never seen it used or be discussed. Maybe I am just ignorant about this Pokemon, but it seems very meh. And I have used it to little effect, yet I have used Megadoom to good effect, getting into top 100 with it. Maybe that is why I feel strongly against it; I am open to a rise but I am not sold at all right now. If you could provide replays (like all nominations should :P) then I would have the visual proof of why it warrants a rise or usage instead of Tornadus-T.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

Nominating Tangrowth to B+.

Tangrowth is a very interesting pokemon, having exceptional physical bulk as well as decent offensive stats, but lacking special defense and speed. The reason why I think Tangrowth should rise is because of it being able to run multiple sets that can each carry out it's own function, making Tangrowth quite versatile.

The first set, Physically Defensive, has amazing utility in Leech Seed and Knock Off and is able to beat the majority of physical attackers in all of OU that lack a STAB Super effective attack. Being able to counter Metagross, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Gyarados, and checking several others is no small feat. With Regenerator, Tangrowth finds it's job of sponging attacks and annoying the opponent with Knock Off and Leach Seed extremely easy. With pure grass typing, Tangrowth is immune to Leech Seed and Powder moves, which is also a plus. With infestation, Tangrowth can beat several things that plan to switch in just to pivot out of a leech seed or giga drain, such as Ferrothorn. Tangrowth also has access to Sleep Powder, which can really support the team a lot. Compared to fellow grass type Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth finds itself being able to switch repeatedly into battle, while Venusaur gets worn down rather quickly.

The next set, Assault Vest, makes Tangrowth's poor special defense stat noticeably better. This allows Tangrowth to check Manaphy, Starmie, and the Latis, all A rank pokemon, while also being able to check physical attackers. Like Tornadus-T, Tangrowth makes a good assault vest user due to it's ability, regenerator, which makes Tangrowth not reliant on Wish Support. While Tangrowth loses on the utility of Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, its still able to annoy the foe with Knock Off.

The last set, Choice Specs, is a very underrated set (which I may be the only person who actually uses it in OU) hits incredibly hard. With Choice Specs, Tangrowth has immediate power, easily OHKOing some of the bulkiest pokemon in the tier with the correct move. Here are some calcs displaying Choice Specs Tangrowth's power:

Hide

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 354-417 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 340-404 (114.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 220-260 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 278-328 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Choice Specs Tangrowth is an extremely powerful threat and is one of the reason why I think Tangrowth should go to B+. Just to make sure you guys don't think I'm pulling all of this from my ass, here are a few replays of Tangrowth in action.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230468735
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230963409
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-240280197 (Battle against Tricking in the OU Mini-tour)

To conclude, do to it's sheer bulk and versatility, Tangrowth should go to B+.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I'd like to address the issue of whether Megagross should drop to A+ , as i noticed Megagross's pros and cons were slightly exaggerated on both sides in some of the posts. With that said, I will declare that Megagross should remain S rank.

Now Megagross by no means is sweeping the tier as flawlessly as it arguably was a few months ago when it was called to a suspect test. As indicated in the sets viability rankings, megagross's AoA attacking wall breaking set is arguably its best set, where its dual stabs 2hko and even ohko a lot of mons in the meta, and then it has some nice coverage options in thunder punch , grass knot, ice punch , hammer arm, and EQ, allowing it to break balance cores effectively and get by its common checks, and is one of the best pursuit trappers in the tier. Lesser used A rank sets such as rock polish can be very effective, as not much can stop + 2 speed base 110 speed mon with amazing bulk , typing, and tough claws backed up by base 145 attack. However even with these options, Megagross recently has found itself some road blocks. Most regular defensive slowbros are now running evs in spdef to avoid the 2hko from grass knot, and thanks to regenerator can be a good pivot into Megagross, and can threaten it back with fire coverage and or scald burns, even thunder wave. Calm mind slowbro variants including the mega will be able to also be able to put up a good fight against Megagross. Similarly , AV slowking outright walls Megagross as well if it lacks thunder punch. In addition to this, skarmory generally walls Megagross lacking thunder punch, as it will not lose to hammer arm since most skarmory are running counter. Mega scizor who has spiked in usage and is one of the better A + mons atm , and essentially uses Megagross as setup fodder for its bulky SD sets. Mega Gyarados , both pre mega and post mega is a decent check to Megagross with intimidate and also walls its dual stab and threatens it back with crunch, but of course doesnt want to take a hammer arm or thunder punch. Bulky Chomp with rocky helmet is as popular as ever and really punishes megagross and wears it down quickly if it lacks ice punch. Several Victini variants are a good check to Megagross lacking EQ, and threatens to ohko with v create. Jirachi also can wall megagross lacking EQ similiarly, and the nearly omnipresent Sand rush excadrill is a pretty easy way to put an end to a Megagross's momentum, on a safe switch of course.

But even with these flaws, Megagross is still an elite mon in this tier, can get by most of its common answers, and is certainly better than most of the A+ mons. It also still has certain metagame trends that are benefiting it, such as the spike in usage of mega venusuar which is arguably the best answer to mega altaria in the tier. Megagross is still among the most reliable checks to its S rank brethren, Clefable and Mega Altaria. Its positives do in fact outweigh its negatives, So keep megagross S.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Mega Metagross needs to stay S. It's still a force to be reckoned with possessing excellent coverage and the ability to take on numerous Fairy-types such as Clefable, Mega Altaria, and Sylveon. It's a Pokemon that fits great on offense which handles quite a few Pokemon threatening to that playstyle, such as Mega Altaria, Belly Drum Azumarill, and Mega Aerodactyl, Clefable, and Latios to an extent. Definitely better than most, if not all, A+ Pokemon.

Mega Pidgeot could potentially rise, not really sure on this. I've used it quite extensively over these past months, particularly the Work Up set, and I for one can speak for its effectiveness. The utility of Work Up is to allows Mega Pidgeot to not only stallbreak, which in some cases is not really true because it may seem like Pidgeot is therefore rendered incapable of shining against other playstyles and it's actually not limited to stallbreaking in most scenarios, but to wallbreak extremely effectively. With Work Up, Mega Pidgeot is capable of wearing down its usual checks and counters, such as Tyranitar, Rotom-W, and Chansey, on the switch. Coupled with such as great Speed stat, Mega Pidgeot outspeeds most things that check it, such as Raikou and Scarf Tyranitar, so they can't switch into boosted Hurricanes. Lost my replays but I did have a few relevant ones. I'll try to find them.

Oh and this:
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 93-109 (27.2 - 31.9%) -- 64% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 138-163 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 93-109 (28.9 - 33.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Alfalfa]

Mega Metagross needs to stay S. It's still a force to be reckoned with possessing excellent coverage and the ability to take on numerous Fairy-types such as Clefable, Mega Altaria, and Sylveon. It's a Pokemon that fits great on offense which handles quite a few Pokemon threatening to that playstyle, such as Mega Altaria, Belly Drum Azumarill, and Mega Aerodactyl, Clefable, and Latios to an extent. Definitely better than most, if not all, A+ Pokemon.

Mega Pidgeot could potentially rise, not really sure on this. I've used it quite extensively over these past months, particularly the Work Up set, and I for one can speak for its effectiveness. The utility of Work Up is to allows Mega Pidgeot to not only stallbreak, which in some cases is not really true because it may seem like Pidgeot is therefore rendered incapable of shining against other playstyles and it's actually not limited to stallbreaking in most scenarios, but to wallbreak extremely effectively. With Work Up, Mega Pidgeot is capable of wearing down its usual checks and counters, such as Tyranitar, Rotom-W, and Chansey, on the switch. Coupled with such as great Speed stat, Mega Pidgeot outspeeds most things that check it, such as Raikou and Scarf Tyranitar, so they can't switch into boosted Hurricanes. Lost my replays but I did have a few relevant ones. I'll try to find them.

Oh and this:
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 93-109 (27.2 - 31.9%) -- 64% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 138-163 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 93-109 (28.9 - 33.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

You have me confused by this post. If Pidgeot is supposed to hit them on the switch, how is it going to be able to both A) get a boost in and B) hit it on the switch? You implied to me that it can do both, which seems highly improbable given two of the checks you have stated can hit it super effectively with STABs. Would you mind clarifying this for me?

 

[MikeDawg]

You have me confused by this post. If Pidgeot is supposed to hit them on the switch, how is it going to be able to both A) get a boost in and B) hit it on the switch? You implied to me that it can do both, which seems highly improbable given two of the checks you have stated can hit it super effectively with STABs. Would you mind clarifying this for me?

I was hoping that he just meant that it was spammable enough to wear down its checks while unboosted so that it can finish them off boosted. Pidgeot has such a difficult time coming in, though, that this is unlikely to happen in a real game.

 

[Olijolly]

I'm not a huge fan of comparing Dragonite to the Mega DDers just because it does not take up a mega slot, which is an overused (hehe) argument it still has a lot of merit. Dragonite still has considerable coverage options and with Defog support can set up a DD against just about anything. CB is still a great wallbreaker and revenge killer.

The reason I don't think it should rise to A- is because Clefable and Altaria are both fantastic right now. I would argue it is one of the better pokemon in B+ though.

I compare DDNite to other Mega DDers but its pros are very powerful ones to me: multiscale that is easy to abuse with defog being everywhere, extremespeed, and the ability to be a competitive choice without need to mega evolve. CB set, my favorite nite set, is just so damn powerful. It can act as both a great wall breaker and a revenge killer. I usually carry, though situation, iron tail on most of my CBNite since it destroys fairies. As you said, I'd like to think of dragonite as a pokemon that is one of the best B+ at the moment and one that deserves to be in A-. I knew this wasn't going to be a popular opinion but I thought I should at least put my thoughts on the table.

edit: This will be my last dragonite post. It's pretty obvious people won't change their minds on dragonite in A-. I just wanted to at least say what I was thinking about it at least.

 

[Yugi]

I see all the megagross noms and i think it should be S.But i disagree with some noms,presumably the one that wrote the Checks of megagross.He mentioned Slowbro which i agree,hippowdon which i agree,but he forgot megagross counter mega Scizor,which counters literally every set of megagross,with or without grass knot,and the only way scizor wouldnt be that much of a counter is if people start running HP fire megagross.




As for the Pidgeot Nom,i dont agree.There are alot of better birds,and it takes a megaslot which you could see mega altaria being a flying type at first,and then changing typing.Pidgeots weakness to rocks,and being pressured by electric types mostly thundurus with prankster t-wave,and if mega pidgeot is wasting a turn on refresh then any electric type can t-bolt it,also with the weavile hype right now it can easily get outsped and OHKOed by it because if i am not mistaken weavile reaches 383 speed while mega pidgeot reaches 375 speed max,and it can OHKO with Ice Punch because 83/80/80 is quite mediocre in this meta and with Pursuit it can easily deal damage on the switch out.It is also pressured big time by specialdefensive heatran as if it can switch into a Heat Wave it can easily,Hurricane isnt doing that much and it only does a major job when confusing it,because

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 74-87 (19.2 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery,and that is with a modest.

Also it faces a huge competition in Torn-T,with waiting a turn to get the speed boost,and torn-t can actually live a t-bolt from a raikou just because it can utilize an assault vest set,and it has better coverage than pidgeot,Pidgeot gets cornered by heatran,while Torn-T can fire off a focus blast,to actually do Damage,and you are saying that pidgeot can fire flawlessly Hurricanes,guess what the weather is about to change to rain so it doesnt matter,because OU is full of rain teams and such and Tornadus can easily fire Hurricanes.

And yes i am comparing Torn-t with Mega Pidgeot,And yes i compared T-flame with M-Pidgeot,also one thing t-flame can only be worn down by poison,but pidgeot can also be worn by burn,and T-flame doesnt care if it is paralyzed it only needs to worry about para hax because it can still fire off STAB gale wings BBs,while pidgeot can get outsped by other pokemon.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I see all the megagross noms and i think it should be S.But i disagree with some noms,presumably the one that wrote the Checks of megagross.He mentioned Slowbro which i agree,hippowdon which i agree,but he forgot megagross counter mega Scizor,which counters literally every set of megagross,with or without grass knot,and the only way scizor wouldnt be that much of a counter is if people start running HP fire megagross.




As for the Pidgeot Nom,i dont agree.There are alot of better birds,and it takes a megaslot which you could see mega altaria being a flying type at first,and then changing typing.Pidgeots weakness to rocks,and being pressured by electric types mostly thundurus with prankster t-wave,and if mega pidgeot is wasting a turn on refresh then any electric type can t-bolt it,also with the weavile hype right now it can easily get outsped and OHKOed by it because if i am not mistaken weavile reaches 383 speed while mega pidgeot reaches 375 speed max,and it can OHKO with Ice Punch because 83/80/80 is quite mediocre in this meta and with Pursuit it can easily deal damage on the switch out.It is also pressured big time by specialdefensive heatran as if it can switch into a Heat Wave it can easily,Hurricane isnt doing that much and it only does a major job when confusing it,because

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 74-87 (19.2 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery,and that is with a modest.

You are better of running talonflame with mega special altaria because this is just plain bad.On paper is good but it doesnt put work when on training

Lol why the hell are you even comparing Mega Pidgeot to Talonflame and Mega Altaria? By your logic Tornadus-T is outclassed by Talonflame because Tornadus-T is also outsped by Weavile and struggles a little with Heatran if not running Superpower. There's no such thing as Talonflame and Mega Altaria outclassing Mega Pidgeot as otherwise Mega Pidgeot wouldn't even be ranked - Mega Pidgeot's niche lies in being able to fire off perfectly accurate Hurricanes which also somewhat allows it to bullshit through stuff like Heatran, an excellent Speed tier (which Mega Altaria lacks), good utility in Roost, Refresh and Work Up, good Fire-type coverage to complement Hurricane, and the ability to pivot with U-turn. Granted, Tornadus-T kinda gets in the way because on paper it seems as if Pidgeot is inferior to Tornadus-T, but Pidgeot actually has stuff like Hyper Beam, Refresh, Work Up, No Guard, and Roost (which Tornadus-T doesn't use), which let's it terrorize balance and stall more easily due to the utility of Roost, Refresh, and Work Up and the ability to get past various Electric-types such as Rotom-W and Raikou with Hyper Beam, so Mega Pidgeot has a solid niche over Tornadus-T. Heatran isn't a problem for Work Up Mega Pidgeot, which beats it. Mega Pidgeot can also pivot out with U-turn on the switch to something that beats Heatran such as Manaphy, Keldeo, or Conkeldurr. I'm more or less neutral on Mega Pidgeot's placement even though I've used it to a lot of success over the past few months but it's sure as hell looking better than half the things in C+, such as Alomomola (which is pretty bad and could potentially drop, not sure if it's on the level on Mega Absol in terms of viability though), Cobalion (decent pivot I guess?), and Cresselia (lol), but definitely inferior to stuff in B-, such as Infernape, Lucario, and Sylveon.

Alfalfa sorry if I didn't make my post completely clear, but Work Up Mega Pidgeot is a stallbreaker and wallbreaker in a sense. It works a little like Swords Dance Weavile and Calm Mind Latios - stuff like Tyranitar and Raikou aren't even legitimate answers mid- to late-game when weakened a little and Mega Pidgeot has accumulated a boost or two.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Lol why the hell are you even comparing Mega Pidgeot to Talonflame and Mega Altaria? By your logic Tornadus-T is outclassed by Talonflame because Tornadus-T is also outsped by Weavile and struggles a little with Heatran if not running Superpower. There's no such thing as Talonflame and Mega Altaria outclassing Mega Pidgeot as otherwise Mega Pidgeot wouldn't even be ranked - Mega Pidgeot's niche lies in being able to fire off perfectly accurate Hurricanes which also somewhat allows it to bullshit through stuff like Heatran, an excellent Speed tier (which Mega Altaria lacks), good utility in Roost, Refresh and Work Up, good Fire-type coverage to complement Hurricane, and the ability to pivot with U-turn. Granted, Tornadus-T kinda gets in the way because on paper it seems as if Pidgeot is inferior to Tornadus-T, but Pidgeot actually has stuff like Hyper Beam, Refresh, Work Up, No Guard, and Roost (which Tornadus-T doesn't use), which let's it terrorize balance and stall more easily due to the utility of Roost, Refresh, and Work Up and the ability to get past various Electric-types such as Rotom-W and Raikou with Hyper Beam, so Mega Pidgeot has a solid niche over Tornadus-T. Heatran isn't a problem for Work Up Mega Pidgeot, which beats it. Mega Pidgeot can also pivot out with U-turn on the switch to something that beats Heatran such as Manaphy, Keldeo, or Conkeldurr. I'm more or less neutral on Mega Pidgeot's placement even though I've used it to a lot of success over the past few months but it's sure as hell looking better than half the things in C+, such as Alomomola (which is pretty bad and could potentially drop, not sure if it's on the level on Mega Absol in terms of viability though), Cobalion (decent pivot I guess?), and Cresselia (lol), but definitely inferior to stuff in B-, such as Infernape, Lucario, and Sylveon.

Alfalfa sorry if I didn't make my post completely clear, but Work Up Mega Pidgeot is a stallbreaker and wallbreaker in a sense. It works a little like Swords Dance Weavile and Calm Mind Latios - stuff like Tyranitar and Raikou aren't even legitimate answers mid- to late-game when weakened a little and Mega Pidgeot has accumulated a boost or two.

My question to you is: What does Pidgeot do that nothing else can? It shares the same checks as Talonflame, is slower, can't hold an item and has a much worse choice of setup moves. Refresh is the only niche it seems to have over Talonflame as a stallbreaker, but a lack of lefties and no solid status options really hold it back. It has less bulk than heal bell mega Altaria that also has better setup options and and typing. Heck, when you really break it down, work up refresh is just magic guard clefable with a worse boosting move and only one attacking option since it has to use a moveslot to get rid of status and no lefties recovery. It doesn't even beat most of Clefable's checks as work up pidgeot can't really take strong attacks from steel types anyway. Pidgeot's normal all out attacking set is a less powerful tornadus life orb set with worse coverage that only outclasses Tornadus in accuracy. (Random calc for the sake of comparison: 216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 463-546 (143.3 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 422-498 (130.6 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO) Tornadus-T doesn't have to wait a turn to boost it's speed above the coveted 110 speed tier or take up a mega slot either (Hyper beam is not a niche...112 effective power is great and all, but it's not consistent at all).

Honestly, I love mega Pidgeot, but it seems like people are just trying to make an old favorite work instead of actually using the optimal mon for the job. I'm fine with Pidgeot down in the C ranks because it is actually quite good, but much like many of the other C rank mons, its niche is so incredibly slight that it just isn't worth using on most teams. Maybe in a different meta where the mega slot isn't as contested it can find a little breathing room, but right now, I just don't see this unfulfilled need in the meta that Pidgeot somehow fills. Keep Pidgeot in C+

Edit: Also just wanted to throw out that mega Pidgeot does not in any way reliably beat Heatran as any crit or burn turns the matchup in trans favor if spDef and all offensive sets reliably beat Pidgeot no problem.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 280-331 (91.2 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 217-256 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 101-119 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- 5.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 131-155 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[SketchUp]

Pidgeot 6-0s Stall lacking Heatran or Zapdos, so that's something Torn-T and Talonflame can't do (Tauntwisp loses to Tran,Zapdos, Slowbro, Hippow and Sableye and Taunt BU loses to the same mons with the exception of Sableye but struggles more with Quag)
AoA Pidgeot is fine in C+. Competition from Tornadus-T. It has some niches over Torn-T but that's not enough for B-. Stallbreaker should also stay C+ because the only thing it does against balanced and bulky offense teams is revengekilling and Torn-T can do that better. The only time its better than Torn-T is against full stall or when you don't want Hurrimiss hax

Sorry if not completely clear because I'm on my phone

 

[TPP]

I disagree about Mega Manectric going to A+. If anything, I believe it could actually drop to A- for multiple reasons. Out of all the mega pokemon and out of all the offensive pokemon in the A tier, it has the most GSI (guaranteed switch ins). This means it has the most checks thats have no problem switching into it. It's unable to set up and it's limited to 1 moveset. It's got plenty of offensive checks such as Zard X, Mega Altaria, Lati twins, Kyurem-Black, Raikou and Tyranitar. It doesn't hit hard unless it's super effective, and I don't think it should be in the same rank as Mega Zard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Alakazam or Weavile. Those 4 are able to provide powerful offense and put a ton of pressure on opposing teams. Clefable and Heatran (2 of its checks) are among the most used mons right now, meaning most teams will have an answer to Mega Manectric. It can't do anything to setup sweepers except Volt Switch, giving the opponent a free turn to set up, and forcing Mega Manectric to rely on its teammates if you can still manage after the opponent sets up once. Since it has no recovery, hazards and status conditions can wear it out very quickly. It's also unable to 1HKO Tank Chomp (very high usage), meaning the opponent will get their rocks up, or Manectric will lose 80-90% of its health to EQ. On the other hand, its speed of 135 is fantastic, and it's ability is great, but as an offensive pokemon, it's not as great as the other offensive pokemon in the A tier. Being able to become set up fodder for 3 of the most dangerous mons in Mega Altaria, Clefable and Zard X or really anything with special bulk, and being easy to predict make it fall in comparison to the other offensive pokes in the tier. I'll put the checks below (got it from the checks compendium). Mega Manectric for A-

Mega Manectric Checks

 

[Analytic]

I don't know if you noticed but most of the GSI Checks that you mentioned are not found on offensive teams, a playstyle that M-Manectric excels against, but bulkier, balanced/stall teams. I think what makes Mega Manectric stand out from the other mons that are great against offensive teams is that it's an excellent offensive pivot with a nice ability in Intimidate, this allows it to check physical attackers and -1 drop is really great in some situations as it allows you to Volt Switch into certain pokemon that you couldn't without the drop, and near perfect coverage in its pseudo BoltBeam coverage(HP Ice)+Flamethrower and not to mention that it wears down checks like Heatran fairly easily by Volt Switching on the switch in and the lack of reliable recovery doesn't help Heatran's cause.

So yeah, M-Manectric is fine where it is.

 

[SketchUp]

Mega Manectric shouldn't drop. It is definitely one subrank higher than Raikou because of fire coverage, better speed and intimidate, which helps against pokemon like Weavile and Tornadus-T. The amount of counters doesn't matter that much as most of them are killed by Spikes + Volt Switch, which makes it one of the least prepared mega's currently. The only metagame trend it struggles with is SpD Hippow, but other common pokemon like Mega Scizor, Torn-T and Tankchomp really dislike Manectric. The better damage output and coverage is enough reason to give it a rank above Raikou, despite costing a mega. A+ could happen but atm I'd say no atm

 

[TPP]

I don't know if you noticed but most of the GSI Checks that you mentioned are not found on offensive teams, a playstyle that M-Manectric excels against, but bulkier, balanced/stall teams. I think what makes Mega Manectric stand out from the other mons that are great against offensive teams is that it's an excellent offensive pivot with a nice ability in Intimidate, this allows it to check physical attackers and -1 drop is really great in some situations as it allows you to Volt Switch into certain pokemon that you couldn't without the drop, and near perfect coverage in its pseudo BoltBeam coverage(HP Ice)+Flamethrower and not to mention that it wears down checks like Heatran fairly easily by Volt Switching on the switch in and the lack of reliable recovery doesn't help Heatran's cause.

So yeah, M-Manectric is fine where it is.

I kinda knew that it's not drop worthy, but at the same time it's not as great as some of the other A tier mons like Zard Y. As a pivot I agree it does a very good job, and it's one of the best users of Volt Switch, if not the best. Imo it's just really limited in what it can do, but I can agree that it's fine where it is.

Mega Manectric shouldn't drop. It is definitely one subrank higher than Raikou because of fire coverage, better speed and intimidate, which helps against pokemon like Weavile and Tornadus-T. The amount of counters doesn't matter that much as most of them are killed by Spikes + Volt Switch, which makes it one of the least prepared mega's currently. The only metagame trend it struggles with is SpD Hippow, but other common pokemon like Mega Scizor, Torn-T and Tankchomp really dislike Manectric. The better damage output and coverage is enough reason to give it a rank above Raikou, despite costing a mega. A+ could happen but atm I'd say no atm

Yeah with Torn-T and Weavile on the rise, Mega Manectric will definitely be better. I will however, disagree that the amount of counters doesn't matter, as higher tier mons generally have a lower number of counters/checks. For example, Lando-I didn't have many checks and being able to hit extremely hard with few checks made it able to get banned to Ubers. Clefable is another thing it struggles with, especially Calm Mind Variants. Thanks for the input!

 

[Martin]

OK. So I've been playing around a bit and I have decided to make this nom based on my experience alone. Feel free to shit on me as much as you want on this one, but it is a sort of gut feeling for me. It is in hide tags because it ended up being rather long (about two and a half paragraphs) due to me doing more contextual/expositional stuff than I had intended to when I started and me not being f*cked to trim it down.

Hide

Chansey --> B-
Ok. I know what you're thinking. "But its so balky". I know it is - its argubly the bulkiest non-mega 'mon in the game with Eviolite. Great. But this draw is also its biggest flaw. Sure its super f*cking bulky, but that's literally it. It comes in and just sits there. It is a big part of why I nommed Blissey up to B- and Chansey down to the same rank early in this version of thread. While the Chansey nom was sidelined by the discussion surrounding Blissey, there is still a lot that I feel about how Chansey simply isn't that effective anymore.

Firstly, it can't touch Mega Sableye for sh*t - giving it a free switch-in - as well as being complete taunt bait both for said 'mon and for anything else which carries the move. Secondly it is argubly the least splashable 'mon that is OU by usage - only really being effective on stall (because there are better options for literally any other archetype). This is in contrast to its effectiveness in early/mid XY, when HO+Chansey was an effective playstyle due to Chansey covering a lot of HO's weaknesses at the time while also supporting it with Healing Wish. However, in the meta as it is now, Chansey HO simply doesn't work anymore due to the increasing pressure for offensive teams to stay on the offense in order to retain momentum, and a Pokemon which can only viably attack using Seismic Toss completely kills momentum for its team, and it means that hyper offense shifted more to subbing LO Latios out for Healing Wish Latias and giving the teamslot that used to belong to Chansey to another pokemon so that it didn't completely kill all momentum. The other option that Chansey HO teams started to do was to sub Chansey out for Blissey due to the latter being capable of luring the team's weaknesses with a variety of offensive options ranging from Flamethrower to Ice Beam to Shadow Ball and even to Focus Blast on a small number of variants. It just meant that it didn't kill momentum anywhere near as much as Chansey did. Before I continue, let me just say that this isn't a Blissey nom; it is just me giving examples. Anyway, the metagame shift in itself was a sign that Chansey was decreasing in effectiveness, and it was implied when it moved down from B+.

However, in the mid/late Lando era, stall also began to decline, giving it even less of a chance to shine, and tbh, even though stall is recovering a little now, Chansey is still feeling ineffective most of the time. I am finding myself using other B+-or-lower options like Blissey, Slowking, Porygon2 and Bronzong more frequently than ever as a replacement for Chansey on a lot of my teams for a number of reasons which (when compared to the four 'mons I mentioned) range from me feeling like the coverage is more valuable than the bulk (compared to Blissey) to me wanting more offensive presence with my special wall (compared to Slowking and Porygon2) to me simply feeling like the role it is playing is less valuable than it was in the past (compared to Bronzong). These are all things regarding Chansey that just trouble me based around the current state of the metagame. I think the final nails in its coffin came with the banning the two broken things it checked in a way that not many other Pokémon could lay claim to: Greninja and Landorus. Chansey isn't as effective as it was in the past anymore, and IMO it just feels more on the level of stuff like Sylveon, Mandibuzz and Conkeldurr in their respective roles than it does for anything in B tbh.

Once again, feel free to hate on me all you want over this, but it is my opinion on the matter.

 

[Sochlo]

Those Pokemon can switch into Manectric sure, but only the Ground-types (and volt absorb mons i guess?)are actually stopping it from gaining momentum, i.e. its job. I don't think the amount of switch ins really matter for a Pokemon like Manectric, because most of the time it's just going to Volt Switch out. Lati@s for example is extremely obvious, and Volt Switching out to something that can Pursuit trap it is just one way to take advantage of that.

And no, it's not a prediction argument, it's just how the Pokemon functions.

 

[Grim]

Mega Manectric is a savage lol. It is by far the best Mega Evolution on offensive Spike stack and Spike stacking is one of, if not the best strategies to win a game in this tier at the moment. It's amazing at stealing momentum away from the opponent and is actually somewhat hard to wall because of its great coverage and the fact that with entry hazards and Volt Switch chip damage soft 'counters' such as Spdef Heatran and even things like Raikou can only switch in a few times before they get in Thunderbolt range. As was mentioned earlier Pokemon such as Weavile and Tornadus-T have also been gaining a lot of populairity lately and Mega Manectric happens to check them very well, along with the old stuff that it always checked such as Flying-spam and Thundurus. It doesn't make sense to drop Mega Manectric when the current meta is so favorable to it. It's closer to moving up than moving down imo.

Raikou is ass xd