mega aero is ranked a- for his high speed tier combined with fantastic coverage in aqua tail,fangs,edge quake as well as utility with its stall breaker set and tough claws making it a great cleaner that can't be revenged by talonflame. Also has deciving bulk while not fantastic it can live hits. Held back as most of its tough claw moves are fairly weak.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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I don't have much experience with Lucario but this post is picking too many cherries so I feel obligated to respond.
Saying that "Lucario can't set up on Weavile at all" is just wrong. Yes, it cannot set up on a Weavile running Low Kick. But Weavile has a few others options in its fourth slot; either Pursuit or Swords Dance can be used over Low Kick. So sometimes Lucario can set up on Weavile, sometimes it can't. Completely dismissing Lucario's potential to set up on Weavile is a complete overexaggeration. In a similar vein to the Weavile example, the other examples you gave only take into account a specific moveset in a specific situation and go on to generalize that as Lucario's overrall match up against the said pokemon. Maybe Ferrothorn has Thunder Wave, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it has Thunder Wae but switches out fearing a Close Combat. And sure, Choice Scarf Tyranitar revenges some variants of Lucario. But, on the flip side, Lucario can set up on it if it's locked into any one of its STABs and still beat any other variant of Tyranitar. If I'm a Lucario player and I see a Tyranitar in team preview I can tell you I'm going to be happy about it.
As for your arguement about Lucario's 4MSS, again you're not completely wrong but you're ignoring the other side of it. For the sake of simplicity, let's say Lucario will always have Close Combat, Extreme Speed, and Swords Dance and can pick between Iron Tail, Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, and Crunch for the final slot. Say you choose Iron Tail; well that leaves Lucario weak to Landorus-T, Gliscor, Mega-Diancie, and Slowbro. Fortunately, your team has 5 other pokemon to handle these mons. Something like a Mega Metagross with Ice Punch, Grass Knot, and STABs will lure in three of these four and also beat the fourth as well. In return, Lucario can soften up others such as Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Hippowdon thanks to Swords Dance + Close Combat until one of them can sweep. Other teammates that come to mind such as Charizard X are also checked by the same four I listed above but have the sheer power to break through them for a late game Lucario sweep. In other words, my point is that 4MSS doesn't really hold Lucario back as much as you made it out to be.
Edit: Wow lots of ninjas out tonight
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My one thing about Lucario is that 4MSS in and of itself is an idea that, while present I don't find quite as relevant as most other cases we look at due to Lucario's role on a team. In the case of something like Wallbreaker Infernape, his purpose is to punch as many holes as he can, so having things hard wall him no matter his set that he could handle otherwise is a severe problem.
Lucario's purpose to a team is as a Lategame cleaner with Extremespeed. The 4th move he lacks does hold him back from breaking some targets one on one, but Lucario is much less reliant on OHKOing fully healthy targets since by lategame, everything he can't break has to have suffered some kind of hazard or chip damage by lategame. It's not unreasonable to expect Lucario's team to handle a mon compared to the example Infernape, since Lucario's job is to basically pick up the bits they couldn't handle, whereas Infernape's job is to punch holes for something in a role like Lucario's (cleaning).
It's also not even quite like Lucario needs these mons completely beaten/crippled by teammates to handle them himself. He mainly suffers from fraility requiring him to nab a lot of OHKO's to stay alive.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 298-351 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-286 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 230-270 (95.4 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (if it predicts the switch instead of boosting)
Don't get me wrong, Lucario does have hardstops based on his 4th move (Slowbro w/out Crunch) or regardless of choice (like Mega Scizor), but Lucario is usually in a team where these are handled/weakened by something else for him anyway. A team that requires Lucario as the main way to handle Slowbro, Gliscor, Defensive Lando-T, and Mega Diancie (basically, a list that Lucario can't handle all of 1 v 1 in 4 Moveslots), I think at that point the entire team needs retooling since these are all decently prominent threats in ORAS OU.
Lucario as a cleaner I don't think loses as much for 4MSS as other mons since, as a cleaner, he's mainly concerned with beating mons that have already lost a decent bit of health, which, even if his teammates can't handle, he can expect them to have inflicted by virtue of these mons having to handle them over the rest of the game.
I don't know how well Lucario functions in practice, but I just wanted to assess this in potential theory at least. Lucario could go to B. Definitely should not drop from B-
Lucario's purpose to a team is as a Lategame cleaner with Extremespeed. The 4th move he lacks does hold him back from breaking some targets one on one, but Lucario is much less reliant on OHKOing fully healthy targets since by lategame, everything he can't break has to have suffered some kind of hazard or chip damage by lategame. It's not unreasonable to expect Lucario's team to handle a mon compared to the example Infernape, since Lucario's job is to basically pick up the bits they couldn't handle, whereas Infernape's job is to punch holes for something in a role like Lucario's (cleaning).
It's also not even quite like Lucario needs these mons completely beaten/crippled by teammates to handle them himself. He mainly suffers from fraility requiring him to nab a lot of OHKO's to stay alive.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 298-351 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-286 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 230-270 (95.4 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (if it predicts the switch instead of boosting)
Don't get me wrong, Lucario does have hardstops based on his 4th move (Slowbro w/out Crunch) or regardless of choice (like Mega Scizor), but Lucario is usually in a team where these are handled/weakened by something else for him anyway. A team that requires Lucario as the main way to handle Slowbro, Gliscor, Defensive Lando-T, and Mega Diancie (basically, a list that Lucario can't handle all of 1 v 1 in 4 Moveslots), I think at that point the entire team needs retooling since these are all decently prominent threats in ORAS OU.
Lucario as a cleaner I don't think loses as much for 4MSS as other mons since, as a cleaner, he's mainly concerned with beating mons that have already lost a decent bit of health, which, even if his teammates can't handle, he can expect them to have inflicted by virtue of these mons having to handle them over the rest of the game.
I don't know how well Lucario functions in practice, but I just wanted to assess this in potential theory at least. Lucario could go to B. Definitely should not drop from B-
Let's talk about Shedinja. He deserves a D-rank at minimum, and here's why:
ORAS is very match-up based. Defensive teams in particular struggle immensely because there are so many threats that it's impossible to account for everything. Some of my most successful teams are when I use threats that are only minimally prepared for and they end up wreaking havoc on standard cores. Everything just hits really fucking hard in this game, and there are times when you lose at the team preview section because the opponent has something that you just can not stop.
That's where Shedinja comes in. Shedinja can single-handedly bring back defensive play styles. It doesn't matter how hard things hit in this metagame, because Shedinja can't die to those hard hits unless they are super effective. Shedinja is also the only mon in the game who is immune to u-turn, meaning you can take advantage of volt-turn teams that put endless pressure on slower, bulkier teams.
That said, he needs a ton of support. Physically defensive M-Sableye is an almost mandatory partner to absorb knock offs and bounce back hazards. You also need a hazard remover, because there are hazard setters with good match-ups against M-Sableye (such as Clefable) who will inevitably set rocks. This means half of your team is dedicated to Shedinja, so there is not a ton of flexibility in the type of team that he will fit on. But when he DOES fit on a team, he is an absolute monster.
This is the set I've been using:
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor / Hone Claws
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass
For the most part, you pivot in on things that can't touch you, then spam WoW and baton pass until the mons that can touch you are dead. Then you clean up. Baton pass is key because it lets you pivot out without taking damage that occurs at the end of a turn, such as sandstorm and toxic. Baton pass also lets you escape slower pursuit users (choice band Tyranitar is the main one), and it also acts as a non-damaging u-turn, allowing you to maintain momentum. Shadow sneak is priority, which is very useful considering Shedinja's slow speed. X-Scissor is your hit and run move, although it's by far the least used move on this set; I almost always prefer burning the target before resorting to X-Scissor. Hone Claws is used for two reasons: 1) swords dance is illegal with baton pass, and 2) it's used for those sticky situations where you get down to a 1 on 1 with something that can't hurt you but also has recovery (like a magic guard CM Clefable) and you want to be able to kill it without resorting to a PP war.
Here are a few replays at 1700+ rating showcasing his effectiveness:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-240398959 -- This guy relied on Starmie, who is absolutely cock blocked by Shedinja, to remove rocks for bulk up Talonflame. To be fair, he had an absolutely awful match-up against Shedinja + Sableye so it would have been hard for me to lose, but that's why I use Shedinja. Many standard teams have bad match-ups against him.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236794017 -- This is a game where I had a bad match-up, yet still won. Tyranitar + Garchomp on the other team means Shedinja can never stay in for more than a turn or use an actual attack for fear of rocky helmet damage, yet Shedinja was still able to do major work, spin blocking Starmie and offering a clutch immunity to outrage which allowed me to burn Dragonite and effectively win the game. Aside from that, Shedinja's very existence dictated how my opponent had to play. I knew he had to put up rocks in order to beat me, which is what he spent most of his time doing, so I was able to exploit that. Even though he got up rocks at the very end and effectively eliminated Shedinja from the game, by that point I had already won.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-240393850 -- This team had a ridiculous match-up against me. Had I been using a regular semi-stall/bulky team without Shedinja, his Lum + SD Garchomp and Metagross could have rolled through my entire team with minimal support. But thanks to Shed and a couple smart switches I was able to break those two while keeping rocks off the field, leaving my 3 core mons intact who could beat the rest of his team. Had this guy not been using pursuit on Metagross, Shed would have done even more work, with 4 of his 6 team members unable to touch Shed at all.
I have used Shedinja pretty extensively in gen 5 + XY because I'm a huge fan of the guy, however I never felt that he deserved a rank. This is the first time where I have felt that Shedinja actually offers something tangible and is a huge benefit to a certain play style. I strongly suggest that everyone put the effort into trying this mon because he has exceeded my expectations and could change the offensive nature of this metagame.
TLDR: Shedinja for D-rank and yes, I'm serious
ORAS is very match-up based. Defensive teams in particular struggle immensely because there are so many threats that it's impossible to account for everything. Some of my most successful teams are when I use threats that are only minimally prepared for and they end up wreaking havoc on standard cores. Everything just hits really fucking hard in this game, and there are times when you lose at the team preview section because the opponent has something that you just can not stop.
That's where Shedinja comes in. Shedinja can single-handedly bring back defensive play styles. It doesn't matter how hard things hit in this metagame, because Shedinja can't die to those hard hits unless they are super effective. Shedinja is also the only mon in the game who is immune to u-turn, meaning you can take advantage of volt-turn teams that put endless pressure on slower, bulkier teams.
That said, he needs a ton of support. Physically defensive M-Sableye is an almost mandatory partner to absorb knock offs and bounce back hazards. You also need a hazard remover, because there are hazard setters with good match-ups against M-Sableye (such as Clefable) who will inevitably set rocks. This means half of your team is dedicated to Shedinja, so there is not a ton of flexibility in the type of team that he will fit on. But when he DOES fit on a team, he is an absolute monster.
This is the set I've been using:
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor / Hone Claws
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass
For the most part, you pivot in on things that can't touch you, then spam WoW and baton pass until the mons that can touch you are dead. Then you clean up. Baton pass is key because it lets you pivot out without taking damage that occurs at the end of a turn, such as sandstorm and toxic. Baton pass also lets you escape slower pursuit users (choice band Tyranitar is the main one), and it also acts as a non-damaging u-turn, allowing you to maintain momentum. Shadow sneak is priority, which is very useful considering Shedinja's slow speed. X-Scissor is your hit and run move, although it's by far the least used move on this set; I almost always prefer burning the target before resorting to X-Scissor. Hone Claws is used for two reasons: 1) swords dance is illegal with baton pass, and 2) it's used for those sticky situations where you get down to a 1 on 1 with something that can't hurt you but also has recovery (like a magic guard CM Clefable) and you want to be able to kill it without resorting to a PP war.
Here are a few replays at 1700+ rating showcasing his effectiveness:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-240398959 -- This guy relied on Starmie, who is absolutely cock blocked by Shedinja, to remove rocks for bulk up Talonflame. To be fair, he had an absolutely awful match-up against Shedinja + Sableye so it would have been hard for me to lose, but that's why I use Shedinja. Many standard teams have bad match-ups against him.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236794017 -- This is a game where I had a bad match-up, yet still won. Tyranitar + Garchomp on the other team means Shedinja can never stay in for more than a turn or use an actual attack for fear of rocky helmet damage, yet Shedinja was still able to do major work, spin blocking Starmie and offering a clutch immunity to outrage which allowed me to burn Dragonite and effectively win the game. Aside from that, Shedinja's very existence dictated how my opponent had to play. I knew he had to put up rocks in order to beat me, which is what he spent most of his time doing, so I was able to exploit that. Even though he got up rocks at the very end and effectively eliminated Shedinja from the game, by that point I had already won.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-240393850 -- This team had a ridiculous match-up against me. Had I been using a regular semi-stall/bulky team without Shedinja, his Lum + SD Garchomp and Metagross could have rolled through my entire team with minimal support. But thanks to Shed and a couple smart switches I was able to break those two while keeping rocks off the field, leaving my 3 core mons intact who could beat the rest of his team. Had this guy not been using pursuit on Metagross, Shed would have done even more work, with 4 of his 6 team members unable to touch Shed at all.
I have used Shedinja pretty extensively in gen 5 + XY because I'm a huge fan of the guy, however I never felt that he deserved a rank. This is the first time where I have felt that Shedinja actually offers something tangible and is a huge benefit to a certain play style. I strongly suggest that everyone put the effort into trying this mon because he has exceeded my expectations and could change the offensive nature of this metagame.
TLDR: Shedinja for D-rank and yes, I'm serious
So I brought Garchomp to S rank a couple of pages ago, right in the middle of the Landours-I suspect. And I believe it should be brought up again, it's such a nice pokemon to have in your back. It makes your opponent vary of using contact moves in general with the fear of taking 28%. And I know you shouldn't base your argument around predicting but I so often myself thinking "I need like... a tiny bit of chip damage to OHKO this Metagross here, let me just switch into Garchomp. If I live great, if I don't who cares? It's going to be taking 50% of its health anyways"
Other than that the rise of Charizard X, Scizor and Excadrill is also nice as Garchomp can check all of them, or put them in range of a team mates attack. I'm not going to dwell into the arguments as I've already done that a couple of pages back.
M-Gross: S > A+ No
Manaphy: A+ > S No
Mega Scizor: A+ > S No - bulletpunch isn't going to be killing a fire type at full health. Just keep it in the back
Char-X: A+ > S Yes
Feraligatr: B- > B I don't know. Haven't used it.
Dragonite: B+ > A- Yes - underrated thread but Ferrothorn + Skarmory is a pain
Shuckle: Moving up no
Raikou: A- > A no
Mega Slowbro: A > A+ Yes - it's hard to build around but amazing when done correctly
Meloetta: D > C- or higher nop
Other than that the rise of Charizard X, Scizor and Excadrill is also nice as Garchomp can check all of them, or put them in range of a team mates attack. I'm not going to dwell into the arguments as I've already done that a couple of pages back.
M-Gross: S > A+ No
Manaphy: A+ > S No
Mega Scizor: A+ > S No - bulletpunch isn't going to be killing a fire type at full health. Just keep it in the back
Char-X: A+ > S Yes
Feraligatr: B- > B I don't know. Haven't used it.
Dragonite: B+ > A- Yes - underrated thread but Ferrothorn + Skarmory is a pain
Shuckle: Moving up no
Raikou: A- > A no
Mega Slowbro: A > A+ Yes - it's hard to build around but amazing when done correctly
Meloetta: D > C- or higher nop
Gimmick
Electric potential
Personally, I don't really have an opinion when it comes to A+ vs S for Chomp, but I'm leaning towards A+ especially with the Weavile hype nowadays. Like you said, it was discussed a lot a couple pages back and the decision was to keep it in A+. I was hoping to see some newer arguments since you brought up how the time period has changed and Landorus has left the metagame, but you stuck with "Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin does 28% so put it in S rank" again. How does Landorus being banned make Garchomp S rank material? (I'm not asking with an accusatory inflection; just trying to spark discussion) Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin are annoying, but that item and ability alone don't make a Pokemon S rank. Why not raise Ferrothorn because of Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs? Or Druddigon with Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin? The problem here is that you didn't explain anything specific that makes Garchomp the face of the ORAS OU metagame, just all the benefits of Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet which many other Pokemon have the ability to run. One of your arguments is apparently that you can trade Garchomp for 50% on Mega Metagross, which seems a bit silly to me. I get that it can deter opponents from using connecting moves and also wears down threats passively, but so many other Pokemon can die to Metagross for 50%. Saying that Garchomp is a check to Charizard-X is a bit weird since it dies to a +1 Adamant Dragon Claw 100% of the time (Jolly 56% OHKO chance). Without recovery (both moves and Leftovers), Garchomp is worn down really quickly and so it can't really stay around for a super long time to "check" things like Excadrill and Scizor.
Could you explain why you think these should happen?
Those are the ones I'm interested in. I did not ask him to explain his reasonings behind those two particular pokemons simply to act like a wannabe-moderator and to enforce the forums rules. I did it simply because I wanted to hear out his thoughts on those particular pokemons.
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I love how you quoted these two and not Mega Metagross, Manaphy, Mega Charizard X, Shuckle, Raikou, and Meloetta which Jernmax litterally only wrote "yes" or "no" to.
But to keep this relevant, I do not think Shuckle should move up at all, and tbh I think it should move down (thats for another time), sticky web is things only niche, and it really screws you over if your opponent has bisharp on serperior on their team (Care to face a +2 attack bisharp or a +1 speed serperior?), and this thing is just really big setup bait for sweepers like DD Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X thanks to the fact that it has 0 offensive presence. It's also slow as balls and its vulunerabillity to magic bounce users (Espically Mega Diancie, which can hit this thing with a SE Diamond Storm) make it a bit harder to do its job to
Ok so I had time to make E rank. Thanks to ben and the team for help compiling this. Also long post incoming since I'm changing around some things.
With this said I've included a pastebin compiled by ben gay and others of why certain things were put at E rank while others are not. Since people like to create comments that are mind numbing to read about certain low ranks that they haven't used I'm gonna put a generally strict rule on reading the pastebin provided (which will be in its ranking that will be in a hide tab for now since they hold lesser importance until I finish organizing it) before making any sort of nom. The pastebin itself includes a tier list of the majority of lower tier stuff and a small bit of justification of the who and what of it all. I'll update its description, the rank of E, in a bit. Sprites I probably will put later if I'm up for it. Most of these I can explain in a bit more depth like Jolteon, Slurpuff, Aerodactyl, etc. if necessary but stuff like Stunfisk you probably saw already being discussed here and things like Poliwrath as well. If you have used it or seen it you're free to explain what it does but don't say "I'm not sure but my guess is...." or anything similar. Don't guess, know, otherwise I'll be inclined to delete the comment. This is the really important part that I can't emphasize enough.....
Any E rank related noms need to be personally messaged, in a PM, to myself ONLY. E rank noms both for E rank and going to D as well as D going to E posted in thread will be deleted. Mods are free to delete these posts if they read this message without prior warning using this post as their reasoning. This is so that the thread doesn't clutter with just E rank stuff and team came to an agreement they don't want to be reading pages of these kind of arguments and nitpicking that we would inevitably see. I'll pass along the messages that have legitimate substance towards them and will try to in a reasonable timeframe and manner to provide you with a reply and result in thread if it goes through. If you try to bypass this by going to D right away I'll be deleting that as well. Start off at E and then make your case for D in that same message to myself if you feel it's important. This saves us the hassle of petty arguments we've seen all the time in thread about the D rank stuff. Here's the pastebin with small reasoning.
http://pastebin.com/RSjrZXph
Feraligatr also moved up to B and the Nidos up to D (won't have sprite when message is posted but will put after) since discussion with team came to a consensus there's not really a whole lot of outclassing where one should sit at a higher rank than one another. Some preferred Nidoqueen like myself and trc, others like Destiny Device and ben liked Nidoking so we came to a middle ground in that. In regards to Mega Abomasnow, team is leaning more towards putting at D but I'm putting at E for now so our lovely users don't go apeshit about something they more than likely haven't seen since last year unless you played against a few select people or teams, cushioning the idea of it so you all know it's being considered and more than likely to happen. Krookodile is also going to C based on dodmens comment on it awhile back since that's where the ranking was coming from along with usage by myself, mcmeghan, destiny device, among others. If you ask for the reasoning I'll probably just reply with that quoting post.
Discussion is still pretty open for the most part, seeing as how we're not making big changes and at this point threads sort of stabilized as to what is what, with thanks from everyone of course, and as you can see it's still fostering discussion to gauge meta trends and interests.
Final things, I also removed blacklisted section and conclusion reached section. I removed blacklisted section cause I have no qualms about deleting comments that are idiotic and making thread shitty, which regardless of some terrible rule that never really works we would still be deleting the post anyways. It's also kind of annoying when people just propose something to be blacklisted constantly when a relatively bad nom comes up and with E rank and the requirement to PM myself this sort of changes the idea of this as such less hassle for team and users reading through thread. Conclusion reached I remove cause it's the ORAS meta, a conclusion reached is almost impossible because the meta is always changing as such this rule doesn't exactly apply either for that obvious reason. I also shortened definitions of rankings. People always use that as reasoning and to put it bluntly it's the dumbest grounds for an argument ever and if I had to take a wild guess I'm going to say most people agree with this sentiment. They're short and tried to make it so that people can't use it as their reasoning, even though it'll probably still happen, but to also establish that not everything is pure garbage in the right hands, or at least an attempt to. It doesn't take words to tell you Mega Altaria is a monster when most stuff here is based on practicality in realistic situations.
So E rank is up now, enjoy, and keep it going. Still formatting some stuff so don't be alarmed if something is missing.
Edit: Sprites for them are in now. E Rank will be kept in a hide tab though as it's more or less an optional rank to look and review as a team-builder for more specific teams.
Code:
Abomasnow (Mega)
Aerodactyl
Arcanine
Cacturne
Crobat
Ditto
Doublade
Durant
Exploud
Galvantula
Gogoat
Heliolisk
Jolteon
Ludicolo
Machamp
Moltres
Ninetales
Poliwrath
Porygon-z
Registeel
Shedinja
Sigilyph
Slurpuff
Snorlax
Steelix (Mega)
Stoutland
Stunfisk
Swellow
Tornadus
Uxie
Venomoth
Virizion
Weezing
Xatu
Yanmega
ZoroarkAny E rank related noms need to be personally messaged, in a PM, to myself ONLY. E rank noms both for E rank and going to D as well as D going to E posted in thread will be deleted. Mods are free to delete these posts if they read this message without prior warning using this post as their reasoning. This is so that the thread doesn't clutter with just E rank stuff and team came to an agreement they don't want to be reading pages of these kind of arguments and nitpicking that we would inevitably see. I'll pass along the messages that have legitimate substance towards them and will try to in a reasonable timeframe and manner to provide you with a reply and result in thread if it goes through. If you try to bypass this by going to D right away I'll be deleting that as well. Start off at E and then make your case for D in that same message to myself if you feel it's important. This saves us the hassle of petty arguments we've seen all the time in thread about the D rank stuff. Here's the pastebin with small reasoning.
http://pastebin.com/RSjrZXph
Feraligatr also moved up to B and the Nidos up to D (won't have sprite when message is posted but will put after) since discussion with team came to a consensus there's not really a whole lot of outclassing where one should sit at a higher rank than one another. Some preferred Nidoqueen like myself and trc, others like Destiny Device and ben liked Nidoking so we came to a middle ground in that. In regards to Mega Abomasnow, team is leaning more towards putting at D but I'm putting at E for now so our lovely users don't go apeshit about something they more than likely haven't seen since last year unless you played against a few select people or teams, cushioning the idea of it so you all know it's being considered and more than likely to happen. Krookodile is also going to C based on dodmens comment on it awhile back since that's where the ranking was coming from along with usage by myself, mcmeghan, destiny device, among others. If you ask for the reasoning I'll probably just reply with that quoting post.
Discussion is still pretty open for the most part, seeing as how we're not making big changes and at this point threads sort of stabilized as to what is what, with thanks from everyone of course, and as you can see it's still fostering discussion to gauge meta trends and interests.
Final things, I also removed blacklisted section and conclusion reached section. I removed blacklisted section cause I have no qualms about deleting comments that are idiotic and making thread shitty, which regardless of some terrible rule that never really works we would still be deleting the post anyways. It's also kind of annoying when people just propose something to be blacklisted constantly when a relatively bad nom comes up and with E rank and the requirement to PM myself this sort of changes the idea of this as such less hassle for team and users reading through thread. Conclusion reached I remove cause it's the ORAS meta, a conclusion reached is almost impossible because the meta is always changing as such this rule doesn't exactly apply either for that obvious reason. I also shortened definitions of rankings. People always use that as reasoning and to put it bluntly it's the dumbest grounds for an argument ever and if I had to take a wild guess I'm going to say most people agree with this sentiment. They're short and tried to make it so that people can't use it as their reasoning, even though it'll probably still happen, but to also establish that not everything is pure garbage in the right hands, or at least an attempt to. It doesn't take words to tell you Mega Altaria is a monster when most stuff here is based on practicality in realistic situations.
So E rank is up now, enjoy, and keep it going. Still formatting some stuff so don't be alarmed if something is missing.
Edit: Sprites for them are in now. E Rank will be kept in a hide tab though as it's more or less an optional rank to look and review as a team-builder for more specific teams.
Just wondering, but how does Mega Scizor wall lucario?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 333-394 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 282-333 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The only set that even has a chance of surviving a +2 Close Combat after Rocks is a full physically defensive one. And with such a defensive spread, what exactly is Scizor doing back?
44 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 95-112 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
M-Gross: S > A+ Yes, great mon, over prepared for, 4mss to some degree, doesn't sweep as easily as say zard-x or mega altaria.
Manaphy: A+ > S Yeah, rips str8 through alot of balance and a bitch to switch into in general
Mega Scizor: A+ > S Great mon, falls short of S rank though Imo, pretty easy to check.
Char-X: A+ > S No, not as good as Altaria.
Feraligatr: B- > B Probably, pretty strong.
Dragonite: B+ > A- Yeah. A- is just fine.
Shuckle: Moving up no
Raikou: A- > A Yes, a great check to a lot of big threats, such as manaphy, keldeo, talonflame, gliscor/lando-t with hp ice, mega zor/ferro with hp fire.
Mega Slowbro: A > A+ Completely, this thing is a monster.
Meloetta: D > C- or higher Don't give a fuck.
Manaphy: A+ > S Yeah, rips str8 through alot of balance and a bitch to switch into in general
Mega Scizor: A+ > S Great mon, falls short of S rank though Imo, pretty easy to check.
Char-X: A+ > S No, not as good as Altaria.
Feraligatr: B- > B Probably, pretty strong.
Dragonite: B+ > A- Yeah. A- is just fine.
Shuckle: Moving up no
Raikou: A- > A Yes, a great check to a lot of big threats, such as manaphy, keldeo, talonflame, gliscor/lando-t with hp ice, mega zor/ferro with hp fire.
Mega Slowbro: A > A+ Completely, this thing is a monster.
Meloetta: D > C- or higher Don't give a fuck.
I like the way that you are comparing a 'mon which is S for its wallbreaker set to sweepers. Seriously this thing is two or three steps above anything in A+ simply because it has a grand total of two reliable switch-ins for its best and most common set (Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Hammer Arm and Grass Knot) in Slowking and Cresselia - the latter of which can only do sh*t back if it has Thunder Wave. This pokemon can OHKO or 2HKO the majority of the tier with its STABs alone, making the 4MSS point mostly moot - with the thing that makes it completely moot being the fact that it is tailored for its team anyway. I don't see how it being over-prepared for makes much difference when you can't switch in on it in the first place - especially since it being over-prepared for doesn't have the same effect as it did on Sylveon in VGC considering that it was never broken there the first place anyway.
Seriously why does anyone want a broken 'mon to be moved out of S? I just don't get it at all.
I believed my previous arguments were enough, and they've already gotten strengthened with the rise of scizor, lucario and essentially any contact move attacker. And it's difficult to portray Garchomp as a wall, or a physical counter to any pokemon. It's truly not the bulkiest of pokemon, even though it doesn't possess bad defences. However, it might be that Garchomp is one in a kind in that it's a pokemon you can chuck on your hyper offence team and Garchomp will portray a role of a short term physical wall, while still retaining offensive presence. I often find myself putting Garchomp on a team with a ton of priority so I can use Garchomp as a sponge to weaken the opposition. Hypothetically, I don't need rocks and Garchomp isn't the best pokemon for me to have right now. My opponent has a 100% health weavile while I have a choice banded Azumarill at 30%, knock off range, I might switch in Garchomp just for the heck of it. If he goes for Knock off he puts himself into range of my knock off the next turn, if he predicts it he is still in Aqua jet range, just not so much in my favour. Same scenario can be said for Charizard X, after Charizard X has killed Garchomp he is 100% in Brave bird range from Talonflame.
All of this might be summed up in the fact that Garchomp is an excellent glue pokemon, which he is. Aside from every other argument I've mentioned that is the one that is the biggest. But should we rank a pokemon S rank for being a glue pokemon? And the answer to that I believe is yes. Garchomp is already A+ rank, it's usage is increasing and it's already the most used pokemon in the 1815 crowd. And you might respond with that the ladder nor usage statistics matter, but come on? If something is on 25% of all teams and said pokemon is already A+ rank with multiple great assets and traits. It's usage statistics are bound to rise following Lucario, Scizor, Charizard X and he functions as a glue pokemon that you'd be silly to leave out of your hyper offence/balance team, the two most dominant playstyles as of now. Garchomp functions on all playstyles, tank for balance, lum lead for offence and potentially a mega Tank chomp set for stall, which I've seen been used successfully and used myself. Together with Charizard X this is one of the few pokemon that significantly gain from the Landorus-I ban. Speaking of Landorus-I ban, Landorus-I could compete with Garchomp as an offensive rock setter on offence, now that Landours-I is banned people will look for another offensive rock setter and ta-da, Garchomp. Landorus-I could also threaten Garchomp with the 2HKO from EP or the potential OHKO from HP ice.
Just for remember to all, because some people wrote thinking it was from A to A+: AM has probably wrote wrong in the opinions of nominations (mistakes can happen a lot of times), but at the moment Mega Slowbro is A-, not A, so we're actually talking about moving it to A instead of A+.
Wandering Wobbuffet
formerly Based Honker
Reasoning: Tentacruel has quite a niche against one of the S rank mons in OU being clefable. Clefable will lose to tentacruel every single time unless it is carrying psyshock which although it gets, I've yet to see on carry that on the ladder. Tentacruel aside from being a pretty standard bulky water also has the ability to spin which is always useful as well as a part poison type giving it weaknesses to ground and psychic but giving it a key resistance to fairy. Thus is resists the two main attacking moves clefable usually carries (moonblast/flamethrower). It can lower clefable's special defense faster than it can raise it with acid spray and eventually just finish if off with sludge bomb/wave (I personally run bomb but you can run wave). I believe A- isn't too far up in viability that this suggestion should be ignored.
Conclusion: Tentacruel is a decent bulky water that completely counters Clefable as well as being able to do some other stuff like spin and knock off.
Main difference being that Mega Camerupt doesn't have an entire buttload of weaknesses like Mega Abomasnow which allows it to take a hit and retaliate in a lot more circumstances.
Also Tenta is more likely to drop than rise, though it might just stay in the same rank. Its worn down super easily and is literally spinblocked by every spinblocker or pseudo spinblocker (chomp, ferro) in existence. Okay it beats Clefable but not even Tbolt variants and just gets obliterated after a single Knock Off because of no recovery. Also while it beats Clefable in theory, Clefa can switch out and Softboiled up on something else while Tenta is just being worn down over time so it's not even the most reliable counter. While Starmie has either recovery or offensive presence and Excadrill offers a ton of offensive presence, Tentacruel's main upside is its typing (which actually renders it weak to ground types :s) and access to Tspikes which aren't really enough to warrant a rise IMO
Also Tenta is more likely to drop than rise, though it might just stay in the same rank. Its worn down super easily and is literally spinblocked by every spinblocker or pseudo spinblocker (chomp, ferro) in existence. Okay it beats Clefable but not even Tbolt variants and just gets obliterated after a single Knock Off because of no recovery. Also while it beats Clefable in theory, Clefa can switch out and Softboiled up on something else while Tenta is just being worn down over time so it's not even the most reliable counter. While Starmie has either recovery or offensive presence and Excadrill offers a ton of offensive presence, Tentacruel's main upside is its typing (which actually renders it weak to ground types :s) and access to Tspikes which aren't really enough to warrant a rise IMO
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It also has (mega) scizor, jirachi, mandibuzz, skarmory, celebi, tangrowth, and mew. I'm neutral on it moving (because both sides jave very valid arguments), but stop acting like metagross is this overpowered monster that has no switch ins because it really isn't and that argument getting brought up time and time again is annoying to read and downright false.
Don't forget that gross doesn't even always run grass knot (in favor of moves like bp or pursuit) so slowbro, hippowdon, and Quagsire (to name a few) are safe to switch in. Scouting for gk isn't particularly difficult, either.
Also don't bring up the hammer arm speed drop bullshit in regards to skarm. No good player lets that happen.
I wanna nom Mega manectric -> a+
This thing beats pretty much every major threat thats not scarfed, and has an insane matchup vs offense, in addition to being able to volt switch out of most of its counters. Basically, this thing only loses to extremely bulky ground types, (cough cough hippo, gastro, etc), but it has a pretty decent matchup against most of them anyways because hp ice. The non-ground counters get volt switched on. In addition, it has a great ability in initimidate, allowing it to survive hits from mons like lopunny.
some calcs:
obviously, a bunch of other common mons are checked pretty reliably (mega scizor, non AV zumi, gyara, tflame, thundy, slowbro, zard y, ferro, etc etc). Mane can beat a lot of top tier threats on offensive, and is good at getting momentum against stall mons like sableye and clefable that cant really do much to it. its great speed also makes it an excellent cleaner as well, and it has great coverage. In conclusion, its just a great anti meta mon rn, with a great ability and pretty decent coverage.
This thing beats pretty much every major threat thats not scarfed, and has an insane matchup vs offense, in addition to being able to volt switch out of most of its counters. Basically, this thing only loses to extremely bulky ground types, (cough cough hippo, gastro, etc), but it has a pretty decent matchup against most of them anyways because hp ice. The non-ground counters get volt switched on. In addition, it has a great ability in initimidate, allowing it to survive hits from mons like lopunny.
some calcs:
Against ground types
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 308-364 (73.3 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 320-380 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 154-182 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^ kinda meh matchup, one of the better counters that is widespread
Against offensive mons
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not really expected to be checks but still meh
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 55-66 (19.5 - 23.4%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 157-186 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega manectric can rely on a little bit of luck to beat mega lop (granted not the best matchup but still)
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 190-224 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Again, kinda meh because if they both mega on the same turn megagross keeps its +0, but otherwise even if you miss the roll you get another chance.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 306-360 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
didnt really expect this thing to be a check so yeah
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 216-255 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Keldeo requires a roll on top of sr on top of not missing hydro in order to kill, so even scarf is not a very reliable check.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 162-192 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Beats mega alt reliably, especially if it comes in on sr non mega
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 308-364 (73.3 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 320-380 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 154-182 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^ kinda meh matchup, one of the better counters that is widespread
Against offensive mons
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not really expected to be checks but still meh
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 175-207 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 55-66 (19.5 - 23.4%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 157-186 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega manectric can rely on a little bit of luck to beat mega lop (granted not the best matchup but still)
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 190-224 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Again, kinda meh because if they both mega on the same turn megagross keeps its +0, but otherwise even if you miss the roll you get another chance.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 306-360 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
didnt really expect this thing to be a check so yeah
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 216-255 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Keldeo requires a roll on top of sr on top of not missing hydro in order to kill, so even scarf is not a very reliable check.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 162-192 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Beats mega alt reliably, especially if it comes in on sr non mega
obviously, a bunch of other common mons are checked pretty reliably (mega scizor, non AV zumi, gyara, tflame, thundy, slowbro, zard y, ferro, etc etc). Mane can beat a lot of top tier threats on offensive, and is good at getting momentum against stall mons like sableye and clefable that cant really do much to it. its great speed also makes it an excellent cleaner as well, and it has great coverage. In conclusion, its just a great anti meta mon rn, with a great ability and pretty decent coverage.
I have to argue against manaphy to S. it isn't especially bulky and not very fast. Sure it shreds stall but offensive teams are too fast and too powerful for it to set up on effectively. At the very worst when playing against it, I find that as long as I get some damage off, I can sac something and either revenge kill it or leave it with too low of HP to be a threat considering its speed it may not even get another attack in. Pure water typing is bad by no means but doesn't have a ton of resists either so this thing seems way to underwhelming for S in my opinion. I feel like A+ is generous as it is. No S rank for manaphy.
Mega Manectric is good, but not A+ good. Sure, it's a big nuisance with that speed tier, Volt Switch and Intimidate, but it's a one trick pony that can be played around. There's currently no diversity in its moveset, and smart opponents can take advantage of this. It's very susceptible to hazards, and a single layer of spikes + rocks will rack up insanely quickly, leaving him ripe for picking off. It's also gg if your opponent has a Bisharp, as giving him free +1 coming in and running all offensive moves guarantees the Sucker Punch kill. It's also not just Ground types, its completely walled by Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Char-X, and plenty of bulky Dragons not named Garchomp, as even Dragonite you'd be a fool using HP Ice on when it has Multiscale intact.
Manaphy is fine in A+ with its speed, and I think it is more worthy of A rank myself personally. It's rare that it doesn't get a single kill thanks to its good bulk and typing, but any more is really only against slower teams.
Mega Scizor is phenomenal and one of the most consistent megas I've ever used. It's defensive bulk and typing is just stupid good, letting it quite easily get boosts it requires. It can clean shop alone with as little as Light Screen support and something to handle Burns. It requires turns to set up but not unlike most Megas but it also has a ridiculously easy time megavolving, which is honestly never an issue. And thanks to Bullet Punch being priority it makes it one of the most reliable and consistent cleaners around, ignoring speed tiers, paralysis and scarves. Roost is icing on the cake. But is it S rank? Ehhhhh....
I'd have to say, I think Char-X and Megagross are currently roughly equal in how threatening they are potentially. Their damage output is significantly better than Scizor's, but they do seem to be more inconsistent in my eyes. Char-X mainly for its crippling rock weakness and Flare Blitz recoil, and Megagross for its inaccuracy and potential reliance on MM boosts, and both are more susceptible to being revenged than Scizor. But... having to ignore my bias, I think Scizor is not worthy of S rank. Keep A+
And segueing off of that, I'm not sure if Mega Metagross and Char-X deserve A+ or S, but they should be ranked the same. I think their potential and threat level are equal, and I think they are definitely better than the rest of A+, yet also certainly not as good as Clefable and Mega Altaria.
Manaphy is fine in A+ with its speed, and I think it is more worthy of A rank myself personally. It's rare that it doesn't get a single kill thanks to its good bulk and typing, but any more is really only against slower teams.
Mega Scizor is phenomenal and one of the most consistent megas I've ever used. It's defensive bulk and typing is just stupid good, letting it quite easily get boosts it requires. It can clean shop alone with as little as Light Screen support and something to handle Burns. It requires turns to set up but not unlike most Megas but it also has a ridiculously easy time megavolving, which is honestly never an issue. And thanks to Bullet Punch being priority it makes it one of the most reliable and consistent cleaners around, ignoring speed tiers, paralysis and scarves. Roost is icing on the cake. But is it S rank? Ehhhhh....
I'd have to say, I think Char-X and Megagross are currently roughly equal in how threatening they are potentially. Their damage output is significantly better than Scizor's, but they do seem to be more inconsistent in my eyes. Char-X mainly for its crippling rock weakness and Flare Blitz recoil, and Megagross for its inaccuracy and potential reliance on MM boosts, and both are more susceptible to being revenged than Scizor. But... having to ignore my bias, I think Scizor is not worthy of S rank. Keep A+
And segueing off of that, I'm not sure if Mega Metagross and Char-X deserve A+ or S, but they should be ranked the same. I think their potential and threat level are equal, and I think they are definitely better than the rest of A+, yet also certainly not as good as Clefable and Mega Altaria.
Im going to Nom Mega Charizard Y for APlus!!!
Its wall breaking ability is Insane NOTHING can switch in on this with little threat except for chansey... It gets a great movepool (Fire blast,flamethrower, solar beam, roost,earthquake,focusblast,dragon pulse, dragon dance, willo) And even a ddance set could be used as a lure and could be a sweeper.. While it has its drawbacks like its 100 speed or 4k weakness to rock, Mega Charizard y is the supreme wallbreaker in a meta filled with balanced .. It can run a variety of moves and sets and is difficult to scout because of its INSANE power, making a lure set even more dangerous
Its wall breaking ability is Insane NOTHING can switch in on this with little threat except for chansey... It gets a great movepool (Fire blast,flamethrower, solar beam, roost,earthquake,focusblast,dragon pulse, dragon dance, willo) And even a ddance set could be used as a lure and could be a sweeper.. While it has its drawbacks like its 100 speed or 4k weakness to rock, Mega Charizard y is the supreme wallbreaker in a meta filled with balanced .. It can run a variety of moves and sets and is difficult to scout because of its INSANE power, making a lure set even more dangerous
I disagree with dragonite being promoted to A-. The DD and CB are both viable but aren't good enough as alone or as in combination to result in dragnet's promotion. The DD is, more often than not, not-too-optimal choice when compared to its DD brethren: CharX, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados. With multiscale and extremespeed, DD has its merits but I don't believe its pros are strong enough to grant it a spot in A-. Additionally, CB is quite nice but it doesn't make significant enough impact in the metagame either. Dragonite is a decent pokemon so I think B+ is a great place for it.
I'm not a huge fan of comparing Dragonite to the Mega DDers just because it does not take up a mega slot, which is an overused (hehe) argument it still has a lot of merit. Dragonite still has considerable coverage options and with Defog support can set up a DD against just about anything. CB is still a great wallbreaker and revenge killer.
The reason I don't think it should rise to A- is because Clefable and Altaria are both fantastic right now. I would argue it is one of the better pokemon in B+ though.
The reason I don't think it should rise to A- is because Clefable and Altaria are both fantastic right now. I would argue it is one of the better pokemon in B+ though.
Agreed. That's what I said earlier on as well. With the abundance of top-tier fairies, it's a bit too much for dragonite to run rampant. I also see that its another pro as a DDer is that it does not require a mega evolution though. I also see that, contrary to many people's beliefs, dragonite doesn't need much team support to set up a DD and/or abuse multiscale. And I believe those traits lend it firmly on B+, not in A-.
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