Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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You guys spent like 3+ pages talking about Nidoking and Nidoqueen ranking lol. I think misconception goes out the window when you guys are so hungry for a Lando-I replacement that you'll use the Nidos. It's a small ranking the only people that care is some people here, team cause we have to, and after that nobody cares lol. Relax not even a big deal.
I agree, that's why I stopped defending my argument, I figured it would get really obnoxious and king would probably get blacklisted as a result lol
Onto more important stuff;

Chesnaught B -> B- Disagree with this, I think when people talk about Chesnaught and what can beat it and come in on it they forget that it is primarily used on stall, where it has five other 'mons to cover for it. It also provides some delicious utility for teams (spikes, leech seed, stopping Azu after a BD..)

MSlowbro A- -> A/A+ Disagree with this one, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have seen some replays of high level players using MSlowbro and not once have I seen it pull off a sweep, I know phenomenal defenses, good typing, a form of recovery and setting up sound so good on paper but in real games it finds it real hard to work like CroCune does in UU, it's just easy to take advantage of or stop its sweep with powerful electric attacks, Perish Song, water immunities, setting up on it etc...

littlelucario that first replay was hilarious lol, the guy stayed in with Exca on 'bro and then tried to trick it with Latios xD
 

Malley

Dominachu
Nominating Feraligatr for B, for several reasons:

- Its immediate power is insane (a Jolly LO Sheer Force Waterfall outdamages even an Adamant Waterfall from Mega Gyarados) meaning it does not have to be able to boost to bring something to the team.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 211-250 (42.4 - 50.3%)
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 181-214 (36.4 - 43%)


- With its 85/100/83 bulk and superb typing it can set up a Dragon Dance and sweep far more easily than other B- 'mons (I'm thinking in particular of Tyrantrum, which is most similar in how it's used).

- 78 Base Speed with a Jolly nature allows it to outspeed Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric at +1, which is a vital benchmark for any DDer. Tyrantrum and Mega Tyranitar both fall short of this.

I have personally only made it work on heavy HO, so I won't call for anything higher than B, but in the utility it brings to one particular playstyle it's easily at the level of Quagsire, Crawdaunt, Reuniclus, Mega Beedrill, etc.

This is the set I've been using:

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

And here are some replays. I haven't been battling in order to back up my case - these are just a few of the first ten or so matches I've played with this team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-239620097

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-239785680

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-239796694

Kindly ignore the fact that I was using Ice Fang over Ice Punch. Building error.

e: Also, could someone explain why Quagsire is the same rank as Chansey?
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Nominating Feraligatr for B, for several reasons:

- Its immediate power is insane (a Jolly LO Sheer Force Waterfall outdamages even an Adamant Waterfall from Mega Gyarados) meaning it does not have to be able to boost to bring something to the team.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 211-250 (42.4 - 50.3%)
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 181-214 (36.4 - 43%)


- With its 85/100/83 bulk and superb typing it can set up a Dragon Dance and sweep far more easily than other B- 'mons (I'm thinking in particular of Tyrantrum, which is most similar in how it's used).

- 78 Base Speed with a Jolly nature allows it to outspeed Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric at +1, which is a vital benchmark for any DDer. Tyrantrum and Mega Tyranitar both fall short of this.

I have personally only made it work on heavy HO, so I won't call for anything higher than B, but in the utility it brings to one particular playstyle it's easily at the level of Quagsire, Crawdaunt, Reuniclus, Mega Beedrill, etc.

This is the set I've been using:

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

And here are some replays. I haven't been battling in order to back up my case - these are just a few of the first ten or so matches I've played with this team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-239620097

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-239785680

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-239796694

Kindly ignore the fact that I was using Ice Fang over Ice Punch. Building error.

e: Also, could someone explain why Quagsire is the same rank as Chansey?
As in why quagsire is such a high rank? It is the bane of so many threats and teams. Not only does it completely shut down most boosting physical mons (bulky altaria, non outrage charx, bisharp, axumarill), its typing (and unaware) let it beat even some major special attackers (like standard np thundurus). Its stats aren't up to par at first glance, but they are good enough combined with its typing to make it an essential component of many defensive teams.
 

Malley

Dominachu
As in why quagsire is such a high rank? It is the bane of so many threats and teams. Not only does it completely shut down most boosting physical mons (bulky altaria, non outrage charx, bisharp), its typing (and unaware) let it beat even some major special attackers (like standard np thundurus). Its stats aren't up to par at first glance, but they are good enough combined with its typing to make it an essential component of many defensive teams.
More wondering why it's at the same level as one of the defining Pokémon of stall. But idk - I guess Chansey stall is outclassed now?

Thanks for the response. Now we can focus on adequately venerating God Gatr.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
More wondering why it's at the same level as one of the defining Pokémon of stall. But idk - I guess Chansey stall is outclassed now?

Thanks for the response. Now we can focus on adequately venerating God Gatr.
Quagsire is, imo, just as useful as chansey. There is p much nothing else that you can fit on a stall team to cover all of the things that quagsire can cover (clefable, but it struggles more vs residual damage and bisharp and the like). Skarmbliss isn't sufficient anymore given how easily skarm can be 2hkod (or even 1hkod discounting sturdy) by both physical and special threats in this meta. In fact, quagsire synergizes very well with the two given chansey's ability to wall the special meta and quag's ability to tank the fire/electric attacks thrown at skarm while checking the boosting mons that skarm cant hope to check.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Charizard to S: Agree This thing can demolish teams after a DD with absurdly powered moves. Only problem is Altaria but I think at +2 Flare Blitz 2HKO's the DD set.

Venusaur to A+: Agree This thing is a blanket check to so much of the meta and hits decently hard with the offensive set. It's super bulky as well.

Chesnaught to B-: Agree it's a good Spikes setter but it's not so good in the meta right now.

Scolipede to B+: Agree A great lead that sets up TSPIkes and Spikes. Toxic Spikes is especially good as it picks away at bulky stuff and sweepers. 112 speed is awesome too.

Nidos to D: Agree Nidoqueen/King are pretty cool as they can okayly check stuff like Altaria. Hits pretty hard with Sheer Force powered moves as well.

Gatr to B: On the Fence about that
 
The first two replays were against awful players (like using trick on slowbro... Bravebirding, etc.)

Neither team was very suited to deal with it either. This doesn't mean that slowbro is impossible to prepare for, it means that you were on the low ladder against players that didnt have that intuition.

The fourth replay featured more iffy plays on both sides, and again, his team had no way to touch slowbro to begin with.

The 3rd one is fun given how iron defense let it beat breloom, but his poor team construction (an inability to handle common cores) and iffy plays proved to be the real issues.

I think slowbro is find where it is, personal. Its sets are quite matchup reliant (rest bets status, iron defense loses to status, etc.), and it is typically relegated to a late game sweep (which many mons can do effectively). Perhaps one rank boost is feasable, but after the "lolbanbro" hype died down, it became clear that while a good pokemon, it isn't as absurdly powerful as first anticipated.
Agreeing for the part of the replays and that mega slowbro should not go over A, but i suggest you to check this nomination of mega slowbro to A made by me (which started the other few supports for him to raise) about one week ago, below, which expains clearly better of why mega slowbro should raise. This post refeers critically to mega slowbro, putting in evidence also his flaws and the compensation for them.
This post didn't catch the attention of knowledgeable users, so i show it again, hoping to create a discussion about if he needs to stay or if he can raise.


Puralux said:
----> A

I really think that this might be one of the most underrated threats (and bulky win conditions) out there. I disagree that regular calm mind slowbro can take 'the same' place but without taking up the mega slot. We have to count that regular Slowbro needs to be full defense, because if you invest a lot in spdef on the purpose of being stopped harder by things like his checks after one calm mind (slowbro mostly needs this), you will end up in being stopped by physical attackers, and you can not switch in some powerful physical attacks, unlike classic full def slowbro. Sure, you lose regenerator which is a very important ability for Slowbro; because of this, you need to know when it's the moment to mega evolve Slowbro (to keep your momentum), which in my opinion compensates the loss of Regenerator with his insane capability. While you will have a kind of disadvantage in terms of bulk when you keep normal Slowbro with Mega (SpDef) into his normal form to keep regenerator, Mega Slowbro can be a pain in the ass to deal with. His insane bulk allows to deal with both physical and special attackers. You will have over 400 points of physical defense with Mega Slowbro, even if you invest a lot in spdef. You will end up having a stupid, lazy and ignorant pokèmon which is impossible to even break his armor to kick his ass, even after one calm mind. Shell Armor will keep a safe spam of slack off as you don't fear critical hits, you can also choose to modify your Evs according to your weaknesses. Like slowbro, mega slowbro doesn't appreciate status, especially bad poison. Even if you try to status mega slowbro, it won't be enough to stop him from slaughter the opposing pokes by dint of boosted Scalds and Psyshocks. So even if you wear down mega slowbro thanks to status, or by other stuff, he has probably already done his task: destroy the opponent's team, or at least, a great portion. He has flaws, mostly due to the loss of regenerator, difficulty to recover if there are hazards and sometimes the obligation of sacking it, and these flaws might surely let Mega Slowbro unable to satisfy A+ or S rank even with these incredible capabilities, but nonetheless, it's surely worth for A rank.


56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Mega Slowbro can pp stall his fusion bolt with Slack off btw)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 220 SpD Mega Slowbro: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO

+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 220 SpD Mega Slowbro: 157-187 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 103-123 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Agreeing for the part of the replays and that mega slowbro should not go over A, but i suggest you to check this nomination of mega slowbro to A made by me (which started the other few supports for him to raise) about one week ago, below, which expains clearly better of why mega slowbro should raise. This post refeers critically to mega slowbro, putting in evidence also his flaws and the compensation for them.
This post didn't catch the attention of knowledgeable users, so i show it again, hoping to create a discussion about if he needs to stay or if he can raise.
I feel like its a really naggy and picky point, but there is something I don't like about CM mega bro.
Obviously when you mega you want to have more sdef than def investment because your def is already through the roof.
But the thing is the lack of defense investment when you're NORMAL bro really hurts, and things you want normal bro to check, even shit like lando-t, just break through it.
This pressures you to mega up and get some decent defense to actually check what you need to, but then you lose regenerator and possibly momentum. You would need to double up on physically bulky shit because your slowbro, a physical wall, isn't physically bulky...
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Slowbro: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Meloetta D --> C+
When it comes to assault vest users, Torn-T is clearly the best. But Raikou shouldn't come second by as much as it has. Meloetta has all the good qualities that Torn-T has besides regenerator: knock off, u-turn(yes i know raikou has volt switch), and most importantly, actual power. Calcs to prove it:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Now, I know raikou is faster, but think about it. Meloetta can even be used as that relic song sweeper. It's so much more versatile than raikou and way more bulky.
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 120-142 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 100-118 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
When a mega luke can't even 2HKO at +2, you know something's bulky. Meloetta has better coverage than raikou (focus blast, dual stab, shadow ball, u-turn, knock off, relic song+physical sets, and more) and certainly deserves to be higher than shit like shaymin and venusaur. It's viable in the ou metagame and arguably a better AV user than goodra, which is also in C. So why isn't it higher?
 

Unlucky Desperado

Banned deucer.
It gets murdered by darks if you aren't running speed so your calcs aren't really good. Raikou has the advantage of being faster and therefore forcing switches. Also, Goodra can be used on rain stall and has much better coverage.
 
Meloetta D --> C+
When it comes to assault vest users, Torn-T is clearly the best. But Raikou shouldn't come second by as much as it has. Meloetta has all the good qualities that Torn-T has besides regenerator: knock off, u-turn(yes i know raikou has volt switch), and most importantly, actual power. Calcs to prove it:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Now, I know raikou is faster, but think about it. Meloetta can even be used as that relic song sweeper. It's so much more versatile than raikou and way more bulky.
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 120-142 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 100-118 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
When a mega luke can't even 2HKO at +2, you know something's bulky. Meloetta has better coverage than raikou (focus blast, dual stab, shadow ball, u-turn, knock off, relic song+physical sets, and more) and certainly deserves to be higher than shit like shaymin and venusaur. It's viable in the ou metagame and arguably a better AV user than goodra, which is also in C. So why isn't it higher?
You do know mega lucario is banned right? Also D--->C+ is one huge jump and goodra has a better typing as no pursuit weakness. Raikou is way faster and it will just volt switch out of it's checks.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Meloetta D --> C+
When it comes to assault vest users, Torn-T is clearly the best. But Raikou shouldn't come second by as much as it has. Meloetta has all the good qualities that Torn-T has besides regenerator: knock off, u-turn(yes i know raikou has volt switch), and most importantly, actual power. Calcs to prove it:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Now, I know raikou is faster, but think about it. Meloetta can even be used as that relic song sweeper. It's so much more versatile than raikou and way more bulky.
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 120-142 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 100-118 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
When a mega luke can't even 2HKO at +2, you know something's bulky. Meloetta has better coverage than raikou (focus blast, dual stab, shadow ball, u-turn, knock off, relic song+physical sets, and more) and certainly deserves to be higher than shit like shaymin and venusaur. It's viable in the ou metagame and arguably a better AV user than goodra, which is also in C. So why isn't it higher?
The calcs are misleading. You have a +spAtt nature on meloetta. "Raikou has to run +spd" means nothing. It doesn't have to. It has the luxury of doing so. It can run modest and still hit a great speed tier (or run rash or whatever to use aura sphere and weather ball!), and it will still be faster and stronger than meloetta. Meloetta is definitely bulkier, but its speed means that it will be taking the hit more often than not. Raikou has the luxury of being able to pivot out (with a stronger switch move) without taking damage.
 
In Meloetta's case, I could back up a bump to C-, but not C+, not by a long shot; she's too weak to many of the current top threats to get anywhere close, not to mention that she faces heavy competition.

However, I will dumb down that nomination and go for Meloetta D -> C-, mostly for her sheer versatility. While the most popular set at the moment is Ben Gay's Mixed Relic variant, other sets can be utilized effectively as well, namely AV and Specs. Her AV set, while not giving the stupid bulk of Goodra or the speed of Tornadus-Therian or Raikou, provides the best neutral coverage of the lot with Hyper Voice + Shadow Ball, and is one of the most reliable Ghost-type answers available, here mainly meaning Gengar. Her Special bulk, even without SpDef investment, hits a stupid 441 Special Defense backed by 403 HP, allowing her to switch in on things other walls could only dream of (252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 148-175 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Her Specs set is very similar to Specs Sylveon, but it holds over it a higher speed tier, a different typing, and being able to hit harder than Sylveon with moves not called Hyper Voice. And let's not forget to mention that her Mixed Relic set is extremely versataile, and can essentially be tailored onto a team.

tl;dr Meloetta's versatility and ease of bluffing makes her deserve a SINGLE raise imo.

littlelucario those are the standard EV spreads for both, so it's what should be compared. If you want, I can show the calc with the same spread as Raikou:
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 120-142 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 98-116 (28.7 - 34%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO

If you want me to elaborate on anything pertaining to the nomination, I'll be happy to talk about it.
 
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Charizard (Mega-X) A+ -> S
I feel this is the best mega currently, tied with Altaria. Basically, a +0 (fucking plus zero) Flare Blitz from this monster is LITERALLY AS STRONG AS A +2 DRAGON CLAW FROM ADAMANT GARCHOMP. Its typing is actually really good and enables it to wall electrics (which is hard nowadays), counter Scizor (another top 5 mega), be able to setup vs weak Scalds, etc. It's not that hard to set it up and its movepool allows it to bypass supposed counters. S-rank is the home of pokemon who can do a variety of roles effectively or just one extremely well; so, Zard-X is an INCREDIBLE sweeper (this replay from the Smogon Tour playoffs showcases it nicely), but can also be played as a Wallbreaker (roost 3 atks, or the even more brutal SD), utility counter/wall (wisp), etc. It is actually really broken.

Metagross (Mega) S -> A/A+
I don't get how Mega Metagross is an S rank when it has pretty much one set (well, 2 if you count sub pup i guess), and it is a REALLY matchup reliant pkmn. I guess it's a fairy/lati@s/lop check, but it's a shitty one. Pretty much every fairy cripples it badly (Clefable uses twave, Altaria has eq/fire blast, Garde has wow, Diancie has earth power), latios does like 40% with a dmeteor and it lacks recovery, and lopunny can wear it down very quickly. I think it's a good lure mon though, since it can usually surprise a common switch-in with the appropriate move (ice punch for chomp, etc). However, all in all, I feel that being a good lure mon is not enough to patch up his flaws: being setup fodder for most steel types (defensive ones like skarm or offensive ones like scizor), being easy to cripple/wear down and wasting a mega slot.
 

Reverb

World's nicest narcissist
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I concur with radianthero156 regarding Charizard-X. I won't restate all his points, but I will add that the ambiguity of Charizard pre-mega makes it hard to switch in against Charizard-X. Moreover, access to Belly Drum is a nice niche. I've seen Belly Drum + Flame Charge Zard decimate teams plenty of times.
 
Charizard (Mega-X) A+ -> S
I feel this is the best mega currently, tied with Altaria. Basically, a +0 (fucking plus zero) Flare Blitz from this monster is LITERALLY AS STRONG AS A +2 DRAGON CLAW FROM ADAMANT GARCHOMP. Its typing is actually really good and enables it to wall electrics (which is hard nowadays), counter Scizor (another top 5 mega), be able to setup vs weak Scalds, etc. It's not that hard to set it up and its movepool allows it to bypass supposed counters. S-rank is the home of pokemon who can do a variety of roles effectively or just one extremely well; so, Zard-X is an INCREDIBLE sweeper (this replay from the Smogon Tour playoffs showcases it nicely), but can also be played as a Wallbreaker (roost 3 atks, or the even more brutal SD), utility counter/wall (wisp), etc. It is actually really broken.

Metagross (Mega) S -> A/A+
I don't get how Mega Metagross is an S rank when it has pretty much one set (well, 2 if you count sub pup i guess), and it is a REALLY matchup reliant pkmn. I guess it's a fairy/lati@s/lop check, but it's a shitty one. Pretty much every fairy cripples it badly (Clefable uses twave, Altaria has eq/fire blast, Garde has wow, Diancie has earth power), latios does like 40% with a dmeteor and it lacks recovery, and lopunny can wear it down very quickly. I think it's a good lure mon though, since it can usually surprise a common switch-in with the appropriate move (ice punch for chomp, etc). However, all in all, I feel that being a good lure mon is not enough to patch up his flaws: being setup fodder for most steel types (defensive ones like skarm or offensive ones like scizor), being easy to cripple/wear down and wasting a mega slot.
M-Metagross doesn't have just one set. You have the AoA, Rock Polish and even the rare Hone Claws set which are extremely good against all team archetypes(RP being good against Offense and Balance, AoA vs Stall) and it also possesses a good speed tier, ability and access to excellent STABs that make it a brilliant pokemon to use.

You mention that it's a shitty Fairy check because it gets hit by certain coverage moves, I could say the same about so many pokemon. You also mentioned that it's set up fodder for M-Scizor but idk why you'd stay in on one in the first place. Skarmory walls it to death but that's due to its typing and that's not a good enough reason to bring it down. It doesn't waste a mega slot at all and I think you're really underselling it

It also gets access to Pursuit which traps the Lati twins so I don't see how it's a shitty check.
 
Metagross (Mega) S -> A/A+
I don't get how Mega Metagross is an S rank when it has pretty much one set (well, 2 if you count sub pup i guess), and it is a REALLY matchup reliant pkmn. I guess it's a fairy/lati@s/lop check, but it's a shitty one. Pretty much every fairy cripples it badly (Clefable uses twave, Altaria has eq/fire blast, Garde has wow, Diancie has earth power), latios does like 40% with a dmeteor and it lacks recovery, and lopunny can wear it down very quickly. I think it's a good lure mon though, since it can usually surprise a common switch-in with the appropriate move (ice punch for chomp, etc). However, all in all, I feel that being a good lure mon is not enough to patch up his flaws: being setup fodder for most steel types (defensive ones like skarm or offensive ones like scizor), being easy to cripple/wear down and wasting a mega slot.
I strongly disagree with this. With tough claws and base 145 attack, he can OHKO half of the metagame using only his STAB's. What's more, he has terrific 110 base speed, allowing him to outrun many of the bulky things that might otherwise threaten him. This, coupled with his vast movepool (hammer arm, eq, bullet punch, grass knot, PuP, thunder punch, agility, ZH, MMash, etc.), and his great typing and excellent bulk, makes him very, very good at cleaning after said bulky steels and waters have been weakened.
edit: ninja'd
 
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art3mis

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Metagross (Mega) S -> A/A+
I don't get how Mega Metagross is an S rank when it has pretty much one set (well, 2 if you count sub pup i guess), and it is a REALLY matchup reliant pkmn. I guess it's a fairy/lati@s/lop check, but it's a shitty one. Pretty much every fairy cripples it badly (Clefable uses twave, Altaria has eq/fire blast, Garde has wow, Diancie has earth power), latios does like 40% with a dmeteor and it lacks recovery, and lopunny can wear it down very quickly. I think it's a good lure mon though, since it can usually surprise a common switch-in with the appropriate move (ice punch for chomp, etc). However, all in all, I feel that being a good lure mon is not enough to patch up his flaws: being setup fodder for most steel types (defensive ones like skarm or offensive ones like scizor), being easy to cripple/wear down and wasting a mega slot.
To be honest, not to be rude, but I think you've never even used or faced Metagross enough times to be saying what you're saying. You're missing out on a lot of the things that makes Metagross one of the most disgusting Pokemon in OU. Out of that whole list, if Metagross is already Mega evolved, which isn't hard to do since it forces out half of the metagame, every one of those is OHKOed by it. What exactly does Skarmory do back without Counter? If you don't have that or Whirlwind, Metagross can simply stay in and spam Meteor Mash until it gets the Attack raise and then spam Hammer Arm (I admit 70ish base Speed on the first turn does suck though). That's another thing about it. That slight chance for an Attack raise from Meteor Mash. It's not a Swords Dance or anything, but getting that Attack boost can really change the ride of the battle. That thing about "having one set" is wrong too. There's the AoA set, Rock Polish, PuP, and Pursuit sets. And even though its KINDA (I say kinda because there are a few other options; Grass Knot, Thunderpunch and so on) predictable, it hits insanely hard with every single one of its attacks, making it really difficult to wall. Not to mention it's insanely bulky on both sides makes it extremely hard to revenge kill. (Hell, not even Landorus and Bisharp guarantee an OHKO from full health) It's not "wasting a Mega slot" when you're tearing apart everything in your path smh. By that logic Lopunny is also a waste of a Mega slot. Speaking of Lopunny, its HJK does barely over half, just to prove its bulk, and is straight up OHKOed in return.
Oh and by the way Meteor Mash does just under half to Tank Chomp, so with a little prior damage that can't switch in either.

Your points about Charizard X are spot on though and I have nothing to argue about that u_u

Edit: Wtf double ninja
 
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Hahahaha mega meta for A+ only 2 surefire counters (who are trapped by magnezone anyways), beats allmost all the S-A rank tier 1 vs 1 even after some of the them even after set up (like mega altaria earthquake at +1), u can tailor his evs spreed so u can make it fatter to switch into shit like latios draco meteor 2 times after SR so free turn for meta, mega lopunni needs to wear him down with fake out then u are forced to switch cause mega meta will kill something the point is that mega meta is not only powerfull but thanks to his typing an bulk he gives himself more free turns than any other mega bar his other S rank fella mega altaria and he punishes those switches with a free life orb boost and 145 base attack power yeah u can punish him with a rocky helmet chomp or rocky helmet ferro but they sure will not outlast mega mega because they dont have reliable recovery and they are so obvious switches that u destroy them with ice punch or hammer arm and mega meta will sure sweep or at least dent ur team with even 1hp so keep Mega metagross in S
 
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Nominating Stunfisk for D-Rank
Stunfisk actually has a weird niche on certain offensive teams due to its ability to check offensive flying and electric types, which tend to be big issues for offense teams, while doing rocks, and not losing momentum. I actually got my reqs with a stunfisk team (http://pastebin.com/hcGpmRd3) so let me try and explain wtf goes through my brain.

When I build offense, two of the things I like to have checked are offensive flyings, and offensive electrics. Both of these types to have fast, hard hitting, non choiced mons, that can shred through unprepared offense builds. Electric has Raikou, Thundurus, and Mega-Manectric, and Flying has Tornadus-T, and Talonflame. Lord Fisk happens too, by virture of its typing and bulk, hard counter both of these groups of mons extremely effectively. I don't think I need to post calcs to show that it beats electrics and flyings, but Earth Power is like a roll to one shot Mega Manectric, two shots Raikou, and discharge two shots Thundy after rocks or when factoring in LO damage. All of these guys Hidden Powers 3hko if you run an appropriate amount of SpDef, also, you cockblock them from volt switching and turn usual momentum gainers into huge losses of momentum. Torn-T and Talonflame can't really touch you, will eventually get static paralyzed if they want to spam U-Turn and Brave Bird on you respectively, and are two shotted by your Discharge/Thunderbolt, while like, 12hkoing you back. Talonflame can try to play mind games with Roost if its SpDef, but eventual paralysis and Earth Power kind of craps on that.

You get free turns against all the electrics and flyings to set rocks down, unless they double out (which i can almost assure you wont happen the first time you send fisk out because no one knows what the fuck Stunfisk does), and you can't really Spin or Defog on fisk due to Yawn, which is basically your ghetto phasing move. Yawn is actually kind of important, partly because Fisk has nothing better to do with its time, and partly because it prevents set up and prevents spin/defog dudes from sitting in on you. It also forces switches, which is always nice on your rocks dude.

Even though hoping the opponent has an Electric/Flying is kind of match-up reliant I guess (although add up the combined usage of Torn-T + T-Flame + Raikou + Thundurus + Mega Manectric and Fisk is live the vast majority of games), it has really fucking nice mixed bulk and you can just lay rocks down and sack it if you don't need it. While I'm aware saying that a mon is good death fodder is a pretty shit argument, Fisk has the distinction of being particularly good death fodder due to a combination of paralysis chance from discharge/static, its mixed bulk meaning you're very rarely even 2hkoed, so you can pump free damage out, and only fitting on offense which is a playstyle that needs to fodder at least one dude every game anyways.

I'm a retard and forgot to save Fisk replays from laddering, but other people uploaded some. I don't vouch for the quality of them, but hey, you guys like replays, so here.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235261959 (opponent has talon and raik and fisk goes off)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235134049 (yawn prevents zap from defogging fisk rocks which lets me win the game !)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235335251 (finals of an ou room tour against I ABR I, i play like a retard, but its easy to see what fisk is meant to do)
I would like to bring discussion back to Stunfisk for a second here.

This thing's pretty good, I have to say. There isn't much more I can say that Skup hasn't already said, but having access to a Pokemon that can check BOTH Flying spam and Electric types, set up Stealth Rocks, use a pseudo-phasing move to give yourself momentum, be a huge cock-block to VoltTurn thanks to being immune to volt switch and threatening U-Turn users with 30% chance to paralyze, have nice power to actually check what it's supposed to check and have really solid bulk is something that shouldn't be underestimated just because it's a Stunfisk.

I have to add that Fisk can actually be a nice EQ-less Megagross check. It resists Meteor Mash, takes literally zero from Grass Knot thanks to solid bulk and making GK only 40 BP thanks to Fisk's access to Slim-Fast, and each time Megagross tries to hit it with its contact moves, it risks getting paralyzed thanks to Static. Fisk can also be an annoyance to Clef since it can put it to sleep with Yawn and can take zero damage from the incoming Moonblast, and it's immune to its Thunder Wave as well, which is mighty important.

I'll add another replay to the list that shows just how good Stunfisk is at forcing a switch to get rocks up: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-240046596 (I wish I could have saw the Brave Bird coming from Skarm tho ;-;7)

So I too must say Stunfisk for D rank.
 
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Reposting this in regards to the Metagross drop nom.

I'm one of the few people who didn't believe Metagross deserved a ban during his last suspect, but at the same time I'm not of the opinion that he's anywhere near ready to drop from S-Rank. This thing is a bit stronger than Mega Charizard X (I'm not sure how much the higher Attack stat is offset by the difference in their moves' BP), while possessing some of the highest uninvested bulk in the game: Metagross's uninvested bulk is very barely below fully invested Rotom-W, one of the most common defensive pivots in the game, and with a defensive typing that complements it pretty decently.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 272-324 (90.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

This is one of the strongest ground type moves you'll see in OU, and it's a roll to OHKO Metagross. On top of that bulk, Metagross is arguably one of, if not THE, Pokemon that set the bar for "offensive speed" at 110 compared to 100 in XY, outpacing what was once the most crowded speed tier while competing with/outdamaging quite a few of its occupants. In terms of speed, bulk, and offensive pressure, Metagross can consistently compete with/outperform virtually every offense oriented mon on at least 2 of these 3 fronts

Metagross also has a fairly complementary movepool for Tough Claws, with virtually every relevant and even lure option bar Earthquake receiving the equivalent of a Life Orb boost. Quite a few answers of his have gained some ground (most prominently Tank Chomp), but he has options to lure most of them (Grass Knot lures Hippowdon and Slowbro, Thunder Punch for Slowking), and barring the Regenerator mons, a lot of Gross's answers are the kind that are worn down due to being blanket or multipurpose checks.

And as far as Meta trends go, mons he had trouble with like Celebi, Landorus, Gliscor, and Jirachi are either being seen less, or at least hurt by the rise of mons like Weavile. Meanwhile, Metagross checks the two S-Ranked Fairies, as well as some other troublesome offensive mons like Diancie and Azumarill.

Landorus is being suspected: should he go, Metagross loses a check while still having the power to threaten balance builds; if he stays, Metagross retains a Wallbreaking partner and goes fast enough to clean up the offensive teams that Landorus has the most issues with. (I hope this part doesn't break any rules, since I wanted to cover how Metagross can benefit in both the current and potential post-suspect metas).

I'd say the meta has adapted around Metagross since the suspect test, but considering many people think he could be tested again, I think it safe to say he hasn't gotten that much worse. Keep Mega Metagross in S Rank.
 
agree stunfisk deserves to be ranked, i was randomly playing tesung to test crappy teams and it actually did work lol

about metagross, i cant really remember a high level battle where someone won because of metagross, i'd like to see replays. metagross' relatively high attack is often overrated because of the low bp of its moves and the fact that it rarely runs adamant.
M-Metagross doesn't have just one set. You have the AoA, Rock Polish and even the rare Hone Claws set which are extremely good against all team archetypes(RP being good against Offense and Balance, AoA vs Stall) and it also possesses a good speed tier, ability and access to excellent STABs that make it a brilliant pokemon to use.

You mention that it's a shitty Fairy check because it gets hit by certain coverage moves, I could say the same about so many pokemon. You also mentioned that it's set up fodder for M-Scizor but idk why you'd stay in on one in the first place. Skarmory walls it to death but that's due to its typing and that's not a good enough reason to bring it down. It doesn't waste a mega slot at all and I think you're really underselling it

It also gets access to Pursuit which traps the Lati twins so I don't see how it's a shitty check.
actually, there are effectively 2 meta sets: AoA and sub pup. HC and RP are situational (and often worse) variations of the AoA set. HC is probably shittier 100% of the time, because assuming you use HC when the opp switches in their mon you exchange 2 attacks for an 1.5 attack. as for RP, it probably does well vs teams that rely on outspeeding/killing meta to deal with it, but in the majority of the time people rely on walling metagross in order to beat it, so in most scenarios RP meta is basically an AoA meta with less coverage. as for being a shitty fairy check, my point is that if you're using meta to check fairies, you'll probably end up with a crippled mega evolution or still end up losing to them.

To be honest, not to be rude, but I think you've never even used or faced Metagross enough times to be saying what you're saying. You're missing out on a lot of the things that makes Metagross one of the most disgusting Pokemon in OU. Out of that whole list, if Metagross is already Mega evolved, which isn't hard to do since it forces out half of the metagame, every one of those is OHKOed by it. What exactly does Skarmory do back without Counter? If you don't have that or Whirlwind, Metagross can simply stay in and spam Meteor Mash until it gets the Attack raise and then spam Hammer Arm (I admit 70ish base Speed on the first turn does suck though). That's another thing about it. That slight chance for an Attack raise from Meteor Mash. It's not a Swords Dance or anything, but getting that Attack boost can really change the ride of the battle. That thing about "having one set" is wrong too. There's the AoA set, Rock Polish, PuP, and Pursuit sets. And even though its KINDA (I say kinda because there are a few other options; Grass Knot, Thunderpunch and so on) predictable, it hits insanely hard with every single one of its attacks, making it really difficult to wall. Not to mention it's insanely bulky on both sides makes it extremely hard to revenge kill. (Hell, not even Landorus and Bisharp guarantee an OHKO from full health) It's not "wasting a Mega slot" when you're tearing apart everything in your path smh. By that logic Lopunny is also a waste of a Mega slot. Speaking of Lopunny, its HJK does barely over half, just to prove its bulk, and is straight up OHKOed in return.
Oh and by the way Meteor Mash does just under half to Tank Chomp and Earthquake doesn't KO back, so with a little prior damage that's gone too.
if I havent seen meta enough it's probably because more and more people are noticing how inconsistent it is; it wasn't even a top 30 most used mon in recent suspect tours (and CLEFABLE, a mon that's theoretically destroyed by it, was the most used). I agree meta is disgusting though, but that's because of the amount of luck involved in using it (mash boosts, zhb flinches, accuraccy, etc). what is the point on killing/forcing out half of the metagame if you will 99% of the time be cockblocked by a steel type/tank chomp? as for skarmory, it's just going to spam spikes (to which metagross is really weak), roost off the damage and whirlwind if meta gets a lucky boost, not to mention it might have r. helmet. as for its movepool, it's good i admit, but it causes severe 4mss issues. 2 slots are reserved for mash and zhb. another slot is reserved for hammer arm/earthquake (can't touch ferro w/ eq, while hammer arm doesn't do enough to heatran/rachi/etc) so it can at least touch steel types. then, for the 4th slot, it has grass knot (cannot touch scizor/skarm/slowking, dies to tank chomp), ice punch (cannot touch scizor/skarm/hippo/slowbro/slowking), pursuit (which beats latis but is useless outside that), bullet punch (amazing priority for stuff like weavile, mega gardevoir if you're not mega yet, weakened altaria, etc, but contributes to nothing coverage-wise). as for the lopunny comparison, it is indeed a waste of a mega slot if the opponent has counters. the difference is, mega lopunny's counters are usually unviable on offensive teams, whereas meta's are on every kind of team. in other words, lop is a devastating mega against 50% of the teams (offensive ones), and meta is devastating against 1% of the teams (ones without meta counters), and lop is actually one rank below fsr!

Hahahaha mega meta for A+ only 2 surefire counters (who are trapped by magnezone anyways), beats allmost all the S-A rank tier 1 vs 1 even after some of the them even after set up (like mega altaria earthquake at +1), u can tailor his evs spreed so u can make it fatter to switch into shit like latios draco meteor 2 times after SR so free turn for meta, mega lopunni needs to wear him down with fake out then u are forced to switch cause mega meta will kill something the point is that mega meta is not only powerfull but thanks to his typing an bulk he gives himself more free turns than any other mega bar his other S rank fella mega altaria and he punishes those switches with a free life orb boost and 145 base attack power yeah u can punish him with a rocky helmet chomp or rocky helmet ferro but they sure will not outlast mega mega because they dont have reliable recovery and they are so obvious switches that u destroy them with ice punch or hammer arm and mega meta will sure sweep or at least dent ur team with even 1hp so keep Mega metagross in S
there are many many many pokemon below A+ ranks with even less surefire counters (such as hydreigon), that's not a big deal. plus if you need to run magnezone, that qualifies as A LOT of support, which mons in S-rank shouldn't need by definition. "beats most of S/A ranks 1v1"? yeah, so does like multiscale dragonite, which is currently located in B+ rank; thats not how it works on practice. and garchomp doesn't need to outlast meta, it just needs to do like 70% to turn meta into death fodder.
 
I'd like to make a nomination that while I think may be a stretch is worth the discussion alone


Manaphy -> S

Reasoning:
The definition of an S rank mon is, "These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well" and so I believe is the case with Manaphy. With the loss of Lando-I, balance has become much more viable and to a smaller degree bulky-o and even stall have as well. Manaphy does nonetheless have the ability to beat all 3. Stall especially though, is absolutely destroyed. Manaphy to many people is the first Mon you think about when needing an answer for stall. As shown in the calc below, Manaphy can even take on Unaware Clefable to an extent. Manaphy's ability to Tailglow and absolutely nuke slower teams is unrivaled. Manaphy more or less picks Tail Glow and 3 moves each of which allowing it to narrow down its checks whether it be tg + 3 attacks, tg+ rain dance + 2 attacks, tg + rain dance + rest, or even rain dance cm. Base 100 stats across the board provides for respectable defenses, and while the benchmark of speed may have gone from 100 -> 110 from XY to ORAS, base 100 speed can be invested in many different ways to pick what mons it threatens. Remaining EV's being thrown in to add onto the aforementioned respectable bulk.

In conclusion, I feel that even though Manaphy may not be the best S rank mon, it's worthy of the placement being as it 100% fits the definiton of doing one job EXTREMELY well, by absolutely trashing slower/bulkier playstyles and changing the mons that stop it by its commendable moveset.


Calcs:

vs. Physical Unaware Clefable in rain
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Special Unaware Clefable in rain
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Clefable in Rain: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 2hko's Blissey in rain
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 382-450 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

even max hp max spdef blissey
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 382-450 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

1 Tailglow and Ferro is dead
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 416-492 (118.1 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Spdef Skarm is still mutilated (especially if rocks are up)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 246-289 (73.6 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Slowbro lol
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 492-580 (124.8 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Let's give Mega Bro a CM to be kind
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 328-388 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulky Lando-T can't live ice beam (no boosts) and gets hit hard and potentially burned by Scald
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 396-468 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 264-312 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. AV Conk
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 190-225 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Conk with AV knocked off
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Conkeldurr: 286-337 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. AV Conk with Psychic (for lulz
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 286-338 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Mega Sableye
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 241-285 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. reg Clefable
3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

max spdef clefable still gets 2hko'd
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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I disagree with manaphy to S.
It's definitely a very threatening pokemon but stall is really not such a dominant playstyle and there are also plenty of other pokemon that can beat stall, so beating stall is not something unique to manaphy. Obviously no other mon can do it as effectively but there's stuff like kyu-b and mega garchomp that are also very hard for stall to handle. Manaphy has an average speed stat so it struggles with offensive teams where it will rarely get opportunities to set up and often has to take hits before attacking back. You can't really use the definitions to determine a mons ranking as you can really manipulate the definitions, for example I could take talonflame and say it can revenge kill extremely well, but you also have to take other factors into account like an SR weakness and fraility.

Manaphy really struggles with offensive teams and fast electric types and it's not like it's the best A+ mon right now.
 
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