Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Cheryl.]

I'd like to make a nomination that while I think may be a stretch is worth the discussion alone


Manaphy -> S

Reasoning:
The definition of an S rank mon is, "These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well" and so I believe is the case with Manaphy. With the loss of Lando-I, balance has become much more viable and to a smaller degree bulky-o and even stall have as well. Manaphy does nonetheless have the ability to beat all 3. Stall especially though, is absolutely destroyed. Manaphy to many people is the first Mon you think about when needing an answer for stall. As shown in the calc below, Manaphy can even take on Unaware Clefable to an extent. Manaphy's ability to Tailglow and absolutely nuke slower teams is unrivaled. Manaphy more or less picks Tail Glow and 3 moves each of which allowing it to narrow down its checks whether it be tg + 3 attacks, tg+ rain dance + 2 attacks, tg + rain dance + rest, or even rain dance cm. Base 100 stats across the board provides for respectable defenses, and while the benchmark of speed may have gone from 100 -> 110 from XY to ORAS, base 100 speed can be invested in many different ways to pick what mons it threatens. Remaining EV's being thrown in to add onto the aforementioned respectable bulk.

In conclusion, I feel that even though Manaphy may not be the best S rank mon, it's worthy of the placement being as it 100% fits the definiton of doing one job EXTREMELY well, by absolutely trashing slower/bulkier playstyles and changing the mons that stop it by its commendable moveset.


Calcs:

Hide

vs. Physical Unaware Clefable in rain
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. Special Unaware Clefable in rain
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Clefable in Rain: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 2hko's Blissey in rain
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 382-450 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

even max hp max spdef blissey
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 382-450 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

1 Tailglow and Ferro is dead
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 416-492 (118.1 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Spdef Skarm is still mutilated (especially if rocks are up)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 246-289 (73.6 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Slowbro lol
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 492-580 (124.8 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Let's give Mega Bro a CM to be kind
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 328-388 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulky Lando-T can't live ice beam (no boosts) and gets hit hard and potentially burned by Scald
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 396-468 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 264-312 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs. AV Conk
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 190-225 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Conk with AV knocked off
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Conkeldurr: 286-337 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. AV Conk with Psychic (for lulz
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 286-338 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. Mega Sableye
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 241-285 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs. reg Clefable
3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

max spdef clefable still gets 2hko'd
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I disagree with Sea monkey to S unaware clef walls it it struggles with offensive teams and fast electrics are sort of common now that Lando I is banned personally i am against it being A+ in the first place but i guess its fine there but no S rank 4 it

 

[DropAcidSeeArceus]

Hi! Welcome to Smogon. Excuse me if I'm wrong but I assume you received those spreads from the Damage Calc.

With Unaware Clefable most run Calm especially if going for mixed tanking in which the calc you provided this happens realistically

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 148-175 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also you provided calcs with HP Fire, Energy Ball, Ice Beam, and Scald but are you aware it only has 2 slots left on the TG+RD set? This otherwise means that if it ran Scald and Ice Beam Mega Slowbro otherwise walls it while otherwise could only hope to burn it. And let's say Scald is pretty much mandatory when running Manaphy. This effectively means that you have one slot for a coverage move alone thus meaning you're often walled by some other mons depending on what you run.

You are also aware Lando-T is 4x weak to Ice? Most Ice attacks wreck it js.

However you were correct about it wrecking stall and particularly slower teams but Manaphy's effectiveness largely depends on what moves it runs. And in a Meta where it's somewhat helpless against Mega Manectric and AV Raikou especially it just isn't S material atm.

Have fun on Smogon though! ^_^ Nice first post.

Also I agree largely with firehusky.

Aha thank you, although this is just a new account since I didn't like many of the silly posts I made on my old one when I first started here on Smogon. I've been here for quite a while :)

I disagree with manaphy to S.
It's definitely a very threatening pokemon but stall is really not such a dominant playstyle and there are also plenty of other pokemon that can beat stall, so beating stall is not something unique to manaphy. Obviously no other mon can do it as effectively but there's stuff like kyu-b and mega garchomp that are also very hard for stall to handle. Manaphy has an average speed stat so it struggles with offensive teams where it will rarely get opportunities to set up and often has to take hits before attacking back. You can't really use the definitions to determine a mons ranking as you can really manipulate the definitions, for example I could take talonflame and say it can revenge kill extremely well, but you also have to take other factors into account like an SR weakness and fraility.

Manaphy really struggles with offensive teams and fast electric types and it's not like it's the best A+ mon right now.

Yes, sadly fast electric types like raikou and megaman do very much so hurt it. I'm not looking more on what checks it as much as what it breaks which may I say is quite a lot. You could also attribute the lack of stall in the meta to manaphy itself (in conjunction with many mons)

My belief of Manaphy in S-rank is that it's the best/most powerful way to handle stall and should be S rank for that alone. Like how some mons are A rank for their defensive prowess and some mons are A rank for their ability to support the team. I simply believe Manaphy is S for its ability to break stall.

 

[AM]

Reuniclus: B > B+
Scolipede: B > B+
Amoonguss: B > B-
Chesnaught: B+ > B-
Excadrill: A > A+

Those just happened. Gatr will probably rise to just confirming some stuff with team. Everything else like Char-X and M-Venu is staying in their rankings for the time being. Discussions pretty open just don't make it to where brain cells evaporate from reading posts, thanks.

Edit: For the record of what I think about some stuff discussed or being discussed. Would be lying to you if I said I would make a full out reply to everything now and later tbh.

M-Gross: S > A+ Strongly disagree
Manaphy: A+ > S Disagree
Mega Scizor: A+ > S Disagreeing again
Char-X: A+ > S I don't really disagree more so giving a bit of time before going through with that. People sort of overrate this things checks tbh.
Feraligatr: B- > B Queen has spoken so it's obviously true lol. In all seriousness agree.
Dragonite: B+ > A- No people always overrate this. I think DDance is better than Band btw.
Nidos: Unranked to D I'll be honest in saying I don't really care about these nominations but Leftiez showed me good replays of Nidoqueen in action while I spent my days watching Nidoking trying to put in work and is basically a glass cannon that gets one shot to take the opponent out. If you're not using Sucker Punch on Nidoking to not get floored by Latis idk why you would use this ever. Just a thought instead of people theorymonning stuff that I could tell they didn't use either of these or seen in action to speak on.
M-Beedrill: B > B- I don't see too many good M-Bee teams but when I do this thing puts more work than people have given it credit for. I've started to learn that the hard way. Pretty neutral but I'm open to w/e
Shuckle: Moving up Disagree.
Raikou: A- > A Disagree
Mega Slowbro: A > A+ Disagree
Meloetta: D > C- or higher Disagree

 

[ryan]

I agree with moving Mega Scizor to S rank. It's not super common right now but it probably should be considering how great it is in this metagame. Bulky SD Scizor is a great cleaner and a fantastic offensive check to tons of terrifying Pokemon, including broken Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, Bisharp, Mega Diancie, Azumarill, Weavile, (Mega) Alakazam, terrifying Kyurem-B, etc. and you can tailor your spread to allow it to do a better job of checking stuff like Mega Lopunny and Excadrill. Offensive SD also still has wonderful typing and still literally has more raw bulk than Skarmory, so even without a lot of investment it can still check scary stuff and hit really hard. It can also beat conventional checks such as Heatran and Rotom-Wash. Both sets are able to set up on tons of stuff and the bulky set doesn't even need to set up to be useful while the offensive set doesn't even need to set up to hit hard. Defog variants are ok but often feel like a waste of a Mega slot outside of stall, and even then there are other options. But it's still yet another thing that Mega Scizor can do well. In terms of versatility, power, and its place in the metagame, I'd say Mega Scizor is a good choice for S rank.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Mega Venusaur back in A+, assuming that is what the discussion is about because I haven't been keeping up. Much like Mega Scizor it does a great job of checking a lot of top Pokemon. Since discussion has already been happening, I don't really feel like repeating what every has already said, and I'll just say that it's a great glue Pokemon that isn't hard to fit onto a lot of teams.

Finally, I believe Lucario should shoot up to at least B+, if not A-, as it is a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame. It really doesn't struggle much to find opportunities to set up, especially with how common Weavile has been lately. But it also gets a chance to fire off a powerful attack or set up against stuff like Bisharp, Ferrothorn, and Tyranitar, which are all super common in OU. Just like it did in DPP and BW, Lucario can set up on the occasional Choice-locked Pursuit as well. Its Speed tier is solid, and it has priority for faster shit, regardless of whether it is running SD or Nasty Plot. This meta is just really kind to Lucario.

Mega Sableye should drop too, but I still have more OITNB to trudge through, so I'll leave it here for now.

 

[DragonAscent]

I'm not trying to get it unranked or anything, but what set pushed mega banette from unranked to C? Max HP and attack with WoW, shadow claw, d bond and....sucker punch? I dunno, and I can't seem to find the super dead banette thread from ye olde days of X and Y. Just kind of wanted to find the most effective set in OU. Thanks in advance.

 

[Kutscher]

I'm not trying to get it unranked or anything, but what set pushed mega banette from unranked to C? Max HP and attack with WoW, shadow claw, d bond and....sucker punch? I dunno, and I can't seem to find the super dead banette thread from ye olde days of X and Y. Just kind of wanted to find the most effective set in OU. Thanks in advance.

They Where talking that priority destiny bond is the reason to use him(stoping set-up sweepers), he probably needs protect to guarantee the prankster.

 

[Taliheim]

I'm not trying to get it unranked or anything, but what set pushed mega banette from unranked to C? Max HP and attack with WoW, shadow claw, d bond and....sucker punch? I dunno, and I can't seem to find the super dead banette thread from ye olde days of X and Y. Just kind of wanted to find the most effective set in OU. Thanks in advance.

WoW/SClaw/DBond/Taunt as the last move, so you can actually do something vs. stall and aren't complete setup bait. It's main niche is the combination of prankster DBond + slow Attack, so you can effectively guarantee the death of at least one, usually more opposing Pokemon.

 

[Kye]

Reuniclus: B > B+
Scolipede: B > B+
Amoonguss: B > B-
Chesnaught: B+ > B-
Excadrill: A > A+

Those just happened. Gatr will probably rise to just confirming some stuff with team. Everything else like Char-X and M-Venu is staying in their rankings for the time being. Discussions pretty open just don't make it to where brain cells evaporate from reading posts, thanks.

Edit: For the record of what I think about some stuff discussed or being discussed. Would be lying to you if I said I would make a full out reply to everything now and later tbh.

M-Gross: S > A+ Strongly disagree
Manaphy: A+ > S Disagree
Mega Scizor: A+ > S Disagreeing again
Char-X: A+ > S I don't really disagree more so giving a bit of time before going through with that. People sort of overrate this things checks tbh.
Feraligatr: B- > B Queen has spoken so it's obviously true lol. In all seriousness agree.
Dragonite: B+ > A- No people always overrate this. I think DDance is better than Band btw.
Nidos: Unranked to D I'll be honest in saying I don't really care about these nominations but Leftiez showed me good replays of Nidoqueen in action while I spent my days watching Nidoking trying to put in work and is basically a glass cannon that gets one shot to take the opponent out. If you're not using Sucker Punch on Nidoking to not get floored by Latis idk why you would use this ever. Just a thought instead of people theorymonning stuff that I could tell they didn't use either of these or seen in action to speak on.
M-Beedrill: B > B- I don't see too many good M-Bee teams but when I do this thing puts more work than people have given it credit for. I've started to learn that the hard way. Pretty neutral but I'm open to w/e
Shuckle: Moving up Disagree.
Raikou: A- > A Disagree
Mega Slowbro: A > A+ Disagree
Meloetta: D > C- or higher Disagree

Agreed with the dragonite one, along with many. Though, tt was pretty much one guy that wanted dragonite to me promoted to A-, which everyone disagreed with. It's a good but very "outclassed" pokemon, at least the DD set. With defog everywhere I don't particularly think it's THAT hard to remove hazards from the field so I'd say mutiscale is incredible. However, its main problem is the fact that fairies are EVERYWHERE and unlike something like CharX, it doesn't have the right tools to deal with faries too well without sacrifing a moveslot, which is every so important for dragonite's DD and CB sets. Dragonite as a whole is such a mediocre pokemon in the current meta.

 

[Magcargo]

Supporting Mega Scizor to S-Rank. In the current metagame, Mega Scizor is just an extremely easy mon to fit onto the standard OU team because of its ability to check a huge number of threats thanks to its exceptional bulk and typing, while being able to perform multiple roles with one of its many sets set (Bulky SD for example can perform the role of a cleaner, revenge killer, and pivot in one teamslot). Like Hollywood said its pretty versatile, being able to run multiple sets such as Bulky Sd, offensive SD, Defog, Baton Pass, and Roost + 3 Attacks. Mega Scizor's biggest issue is that it has multiple check's / counters to it, but a majority of its checks / counters have very exploitable issues (Charizard X, Talonflame, and Gyarados are all weak to SR, Keldeo is easily worn and is pretty easy to check, Heatran and Rotom-W lose to Scizor if its offensive SD, etc.). I think Scizor is on par with Mega Metagross (who is currently S-Rank) in viability, because while Mega Metagross hits harder and is much faster, Scizor is able to offer a larger amount of utility thanks to its better defensive typing and access to key moves such as Roost, Swords Dance and U-Turn.

Gastrodon could also use a bump to B-Mid. Gastrodon is a pretty awesome mon in the current metagame. Its immunity to Scald and Volt Switch, as well as its neutrality to Ice, are pretty large assets to most teams and make it a great switch-in to most Water and Electric types in the tier, as well as an excellent stop to Volturn cores and Rain teams to some extent. Having access to reliable recovery and above average bulk make Gastrodon pretty difficult to wear down as well. Its vulnerability to Grass types is indeed an issue, but Grasses are not too difficult to remove with support from Pokemon such as Talonflame and Tornadus-T.

 

[Eraxxer]

I don't think M-Scizor belongs in S-Rank. It's whittled pretty easily and everything it's supposed to check can damage it to at least around 50% including rocks. Factor in that it's not overly fast and Steel is one of the easiest things to resist, and it's just mid-A+ to me. Things like Clefable run Fire coverage all the time and HP Fire is one of the most commonly run Hidden Powers, and Scizor can't switch in on these things.

Not to mention that Scizor checks/counters are really common - Skarmory, Keldeo, Heatran, Zapdos, Thundurus, Charizards, Talonflame, Hippo, Manectric, and the two I'd like to give a special mention to: Tank Chomp because it's literally everywhere and Magnezone because it doesn't only check Scizor, it traps and removes pretty much everything except the speedy Superpower sets.

Also, since everyone is talking about Zard X, I've mulled it over for a while, but after playing some ladder games with my new team (warning: shameless plug incoming: check out the RMT) and despite having 3 decent checks, two flimsy checks and one last minute Sturdy whirlwinder, it still manages to beat me. At this point it pretty much has to go to S rank. Except for Mega Slowbro, it hasn't got any counters that can last all game easily (Quagsire loses to Outrage and is easily whittled, Rhyperior hates burn and has to rely on Leftovers, and so on). This probably isn't the place to bring this up but it supports my argument so I'll say that Zard X deserves to be banned. It has literally one counter. I don't care if it hates rocks, the thing is fucking disgustingly strong with STAB Tough Claws Flare Blitzes that it can spam. Every time it switches in on something you have to attack for risk of it DDing, it has reliable, drawback free, 16 PP recovery and can run coverage for basically anything in the game.

Mega Venusaur checks too many things while also being able to dish out really hard hits to not be A+. The monster is one of the best checks/counters to 2 out of 3 S Ranks mons, as well as being able to check the really common Keldeo, Diancie, Lopunny, Thundurus, Raikou, Ferrothorn, Rotom, and being a decent way to deal with a +3 Manaphy if you don't have a speedy electric because Psychic isn't that common at the moment.

In summary:

Mega Scizor stay A+

Zard X -> S

Mega Venu -> A+

 

[#1 Rotom]

Garchomp> S

No one has mentioned garchomp much. It can be an excellent offensive lead, a choice scarf/band sweeper, a swords dance sweeper and a tank, and is awesome at all these jobs. What's even better is the fact that it is so unpredictable if you use it right. One time, I battled this guy with a garchomp lead. I suspected a lead set with stealth rock to I thought thundurus could outspeed it and switched in. It was actually a choice scarf set, to my horror, and proceeded to destroy my thundurus and then half my team. It has so many viable sets that knock off is needed to find out what the hell it is. It doesn't have many weaknesses except for fairy x4 ice,dragon, so it doesn't need much support. It also has good bulk so it can easily set up swords dance. Not to mention its wide movepool which gives it great coverage.

 

[Ksh13]

Garchomp> S

No one has mentioned garchomp much. It can be an excellent offensive lead, a choice scarf/band sweeper, a swords dance sweeper and a tank, and is awesome at all these jobs. What's even better is the fact that it is so unpredictable if you use it right. One time, I battled this guy with a garchomp lead. I suspected a lead set with stealth rock to I thought thundurus could outspeed it and switched in. It was actually a choice scarf set, to my horror, and proceeded to destroy my thundurus and then half my team. It has so many viable sets that knock off is needed to find out what the hell it is. It doesn't have many weaknesses except for fairy x4 ice,dragon, so it doesn't need much support. It also has good bulk so it can easily set up swords dance. Not to mention its wide movepool which gives it great coverage.

This was discussed a while ago, and Garchomp (Specifically TankChomp, which is the best set atm) is too much of a glue mon for being S. Keep in A+.

 

[Swagata]

I also support Mega Scizor to S Rank. The current metagame is like heaven for M.Scizor .It is so effective and easy to fit into a team in the current state of the metagame that its not even funny. It can give the team a very good offensive and defensive presence which very few Pokémon can. It can counter/check the top tier threats pretty easily. He has several viable sets, good setup opportunities, reliable recovery, able to keep up momentum and quite a few other utilities which make him a pretty good candidate for S Rank.

 

[Martin]

I think Mega Scizor is in the same boat as Garchomp when it comes to moving it tbh. It is one of those "X Rank" 'mons (by X rank I mean things that are "better" than the other A+ ranks but not S rank worthy or are "worse" than the other S ranks but too good for A+ - it is a hypothetical rank that only comes into psuedo-existence when there are cases like it), and it shares that place with Clefable, Keldeo, Manaphy, Garchomp and Mega Lopunny. IMO, it - like Garchomp - is too much of a glue 'mon to be an S rank. It doesn't really excell in the same way as the S ranks, rather just gluing together parts of the team - but not in the same way Lando-I did before it got banned. IMO, the (mostly) undisputable S ranks (M-Meta and M-Altaria) are two 'mons that can be very easily built around OR glued. Clefable - the other S rank - is more of an "X rank" for me in the respect that it can't be built around, and in that it solely acts as a glue for its teams. M-Scizor is like Clefable and Garchomp in that you can't specifically build around it. While some of the X ranks can be built around (namely M-Lop), they either don't act as effective glues, naturally get prepared for when building a team or do not feel on the same level as the S ranks (on a case-by-case basis). Really, Mega Scizor is something that you could justify for S all you want without it ever really feeling like a natural S rank, and the same goes for all of the "X ranks". I have made this analogy in the past, and it still holds true for all its cases. Generally, when something gets nominated to move between the S and A+ ranks, they either end up feeling like an "X rank" are are just poorly-chosen nominations.

Speaking of poorly-chosen nominations, idk why anyone wants Mega Metagross moved down. IMO Mega Metagross is still f*cking broken, so any kind of move out of S is just preposterous. Mega Metagross can deal with the vast majority of the metagame with just its STABs, it can cater itself to its team's needs with its other moves and it is virtually impossible to wall (you can wait a turn to mega in order to beat Skarmory 1v1 with Hammer Arm for example). It is a wallbreaker that can break the entire tier, so it should not move down.

 

[dice]

i rarely post here, but i most certainly do not agree with the s-rank scizor sentiment. indeed, it checks a quite a few top threats: many of the s and a-ranked megas, azumarill, bisharp, etc. in spite of its utility, the immediate threat it poses is lackluster compared to other similarly ranked mega pokemon. the only two relevant scizor sets worthy of discussion, bulky sd and offensive sd, lack immediate offensive prowess and are relatively easy to check. almost every common team can effectively neuter these sets with relative ease and they often don't pose as much of a threat without proper support (see: keldeo, talonflame, landorus-t, hippowdon, thundurus, etc). magnezone's usage being at an all time high in the tournaments oras metagame doesn't help scizor at all either. unlike, say, a charizard-x which is hardly stopped by anything in the metagame while providing useful resistances and defensive coverage (char-y, possible bisharp, raikou, thundurus..), or metagross who has similar resistances and the ability to break past almost any balanced core while having the speed to threaten offense, scizor's potency is comparatively worse. furthermore, due to the fact that so many other steels are currently viable in the metagame that do not contain the opportunity cost of using the mega slot, scizor's not as splashable as he may seem. this isn't a very arguable measure, but whenever i build squads, other megas usually are more stand out as i find they have superior power:utility ratios. i agree that scizor's resilience, utility, and decent power make it a worthy candidate for a+, but juxtaposed to s-ranked threats, he seems to fall a little short.

 

[Honus]

scizor's really overrated actually lol, it has really good defensive utility but that's pretty much its biggest upside

even then countering altaria and clef are situational-yes twave clef/heal bell alt are the best respective sets for these pokes but fire blast and flamethrower are still an option for both of them to run. on the flip side scizor invites in rotom-w to gain momentum back, as well as 2 of the biggest savages in the metagame right now=talon and charizard-x, in addition to also being countered by the most popular pokemon atm-tank Garchomp. I mean yes, defensively it's really good, acting as a challenger to switch into big boys like alakazam, gengar, excadrill or bisharp most of the time while also being able to generally beat the S rank pokes, but i don't think i've seen any poke so guilty of forfeiting momentum as Mega Scizor if you aren't running the U-Turn version.

almost every team has a poke that can take an inconsequential amount from scizor's weak attacks, so after sciz checks what it needs to, your opponent usually gets to go on the offensive again. Contrast this with a poke like mega venusaur who can has a huge special attack and great coverage, able to deal lots of damage by predicting correctly, or even causing a status condition. Sciz mainly sweeps via bad teambuilding honestly, where the water is a crawdaunt or something that relies on scald to beat it and there's metagross as the mega along with a bunch of fairy and psychic types or something like that. Just by virtue of OU teams existing, Scizor has a hard time sweeping; almost half of the A+ rank pokes can beat it, not to mention there's a bunch that can carry a lure move to kill it on the switch. it's definitely great at checking big threats 1v1 and can be a nice breaker in the right situations, but no way is it S rank.

 

[BlazeLatias]

In Meloetta's case, I could back up a bump to C-, but not C+, not by a long shot; she's too weak to many of the current top threats to get anywhere close, not to mention that she faces heavy competition.

However, I will dumb down that nomination and go for Meloetta D -> C-, mostly for her sheer versatility. While the most popular set at the moment is Ben Gay's Mixed Relic variant, other sets can be utilized effectively as well, namely AV and Specs. Her AV set, while not giving the stupid bulk of Goodra or the speed of Tornadus-Therian or Raikou, provides the best neutral coverage of the lot with Hyper Voice + Shadow Ball, and is one of the most reliable Ghost-type answers available, here mainly meaning Gengar. Her Special bulk, even without SpDef investment, hits a stupid 441 Special Defense backed by 403 HP, allowing her to switch in on things other walls could only dream of (252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 148-175 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Her Specs set is very similar to Specs Sylveon, but it holds over it a higher speed tier, a different typing, and being able to hit harder than Sylveon with moves not called Hyper Voice. And let's not forget to mention that her Mixed Relic set is extremely versataile, and can essentially be tailored onto a team.

tl;dr Meloetta's versatility and ease of bluffing makes her deserve a SINGLE raise imo.

littlelucario those are the standard EV spreads for both, so it's what should be compared. If you want, I can show the calc with the same spread as Raikou:
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 120-142 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 98-116 (28.7 - 34%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO

If you want me to elaborate on anything pertaining to the nomination, I'll be happy to talk about it.

Id have to agree with this(not with the calcs but the nom). In my eyes melloeta is much better then several of the d ranks and requires much less support and looks more on the lines of c- if anything. This things horrably underated and while it can be rather difficult to use her somtimes its also true when she works melloetta is pretty damn effective. Not to mention melloetta piroette has a few tricks up his sleave as little known fact: Lo melo-p hits almost as hard as Adamant mega loppuny and has cc instead of high jump kick with a pretty fantastic speed tier. Not to mention mixed sets are capable of even lureing bisharp in (in aria form as well) and ohkoing with cc which means its not easy to trap meloetta somthing not many psychic types can do without risking a focus blast. Of course with that said the reason why it shouldent go higher then c- or c is how you need to change forms every time to become a mini mega lop, and aria form is pretty slow still. Also bluffing aria form but when in reality your full physical can scare off stuff like mega venu which is fantastic. Also rip weaviles that try trapping physical/mixed sets. So ya D--->c-

 

[firehusky]

Finally, I believe Lucario should shoot up to at least B+, if not A-, as it is a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame. It really doesn't struggle much to find opportunities to set up, especially with how common Weavile has been lately. But it also gets a chance to fire off a powerful attack or set up against stuff like Bisharp, Ferrothorn, and Tyranitar, which are all super common in OU.

Uh this isn't true. Lucario is pretty frail. It can't even properly set up on bisharp because knock off + sucker punch basically KOs it. Also lucario can't set up on weavile at all, it just gets OHKOed by low kick. Ferrothorn may have thunder wave, and one of the best tyranitar sets right now is choice scarf which actually revenge kills non bullet punch lucario. The meta is full of fast and strong pokemon that can easily KO lucario, such as metagross, keldeo, landorus-t, lopunny, etc, which makes setting up with lucario quite hard.

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 80.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 109-130 (38.7 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 286-338 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just like it did in DPP and BW, Lucario can set up on the occasional Choice-locked Pursuit as well. Its Speed tier is solid, and it has priority for faster shit, regardless of whether it is running SD or Nasty Plot. This meta is just really kind to Lucario.

Base 90 speed isn't bad at all, but it's not good by any means. Lucario is very reliant on espeed against faster mons, and even then a lot of common mons can easily take one and KO lucario back. The nasty plot set is also pretty bad, it's attacks have low BP and vacuum wave is piss weak even at +2.

Lucario also really relies on team support to beat the stuff that it can't beat. For example, if it doesn't have iron tail it can't get past venusaur or clefable, and if it doesn't have ice punch it cannot beat landorus-t. If it doesn't have bullet punch it needs teammates that can handle mega diancie.

tl;dr: lucario's fraility makes setting up hard, it is overreliant on espeed against faster pokemon, and it requires extensive team support. It's a good late game cleaner but in practice it's just not that good. There's certainly no way lucario is on the level of pokemon such as kyu-b, serperior, reuniclus, or medicham. Keep lucario in B-.

 

[Karxrida]

Uh this isn't true. Lucario is pretty frail. It can't even properly set up on bisharp because knock off + sucker punch basically KOs it. Also lucario can't set up on weavile at all, it just gets OHKOed by low kick. Ferrothorn may have thunder wave, and one of the best tyranitar sets right now is choice scarf which actually revenge kills non bullet punch lucario. The meta is full of fast and strong pokemon that can easily KO lucario, such as metagross, keldeo, landorus-t, lopunny, etc, which makes setting up with lucario quite hard.

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 80.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 109-130 (38.7 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 286-338 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Base 90 speed isn't bad at all, but it's not good by any means. Lucario is very reliant on espeed against faster mons, and even then a lot of common mons can easily take one and KO lucario back. The nasty plot set is also pretty bad, it's attacks have low BP and vacuum wave is piss weak even at +2.

Lucario also really relies on team support to beat the stuff that it can't beat. For example, if it doesn't have iron tail it can't get past venusaur or clefable, and if it doesn't have ice punch it cannot beat landorus-t. If it doesn't have bullet punch it needs teammates that can handle mega diancie.

tl;dr: lucario's fraility makes setting up hard, it is overreliant on espeed against faster pokemon, and it requires extensive team support. It's a good late game cleaner but in practice it's just not that good. There's certainly no way lucario is on the level of pokemon such as kyu-b, serperior, reuniclus, or medicham. Keep lucario in B-.

Neutral on Luke, but what you said about it setting up on Bisharp is wrong. Your calcs show unboosted Adamant LO Bisharp Reauires 2 high rolls to 2HKO with Knock Off + Sucker Punch, and you've just given Luke 2 Justified boosts on top of removing its Life Orb so it won't kill itself. Luke only really has to worry about Low Kick, which last time I checked is pretty rare.

Now if you excuse me, I need to go repent for saying something negative about Bisharp.

 

[ryan]

Have you actually used Lucario because it really doesn't sound like it.

If you SD on a Bisharp and they use Knock Off against you, you can thank them for getting you up to +3. And nobody is going to Sucker Punch a Lucario with a Bisharp when it doesn't even kill because that's a great way to let it set up against you. You can easily scout for Low Kick on Weavile, but I've seen far more SD than Low Kick, and even against Low Kick variants, they still have to fear taking a Life Orb or +1 Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, or Vacuum Wave, and all but Extreme Speed OHKO.

Tyranitar's "best set" is highly debatable, but yes, Extreme Speed Lucario can be revenge killed by it, AFTER getting a kill.

Thunder Wave Ferrothorn is hardly common, but yes, it does exist.

The meta is not "full of" Metagross. Landorus-T is not a good check because:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 177-208 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and if it's defensive or bulky dual dance, it risks getting killed by an Ice Punch. It also risks getting hit by an Iron Tail, which does in fact hit it hard!

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-286 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
nice check

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 233-274 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
great check

Base 90 Speed is not bad at all in this metagame, filled with shit like Gyarados, Altaria, and Excadrill. You also outrun all but Scarf Heatran with Adamant Lucario.

tl;dr Lucario is a good late-game cleaner, but in practice, is better than your theorymon bullshit.

 

[Notorious544d]

I think Mega Scizor is in the same boat as Garchomp when it comes to moving it tbh. It is one of those "X Rank" 'mons (by X rank I mean things that are "better" than the other A+ ranks but not S rank worthy or are "worse" than the other S ranks but too good for A+ - it is a hypothetical rank that only comes into psuedo-existence when there are cases like it), and it shares that place with Clefable, Keldeo, Manaphy, Garchomp and Mega Lopunny. IMO, it - like Garchomp - is too much of a glue 'mon to be an S rank. It doesn't really excell in the same way as the S ranks, rather just gluing together parts of the team - but not in the same way Lando-I did before it got banned. IMO, the (mostly) undisputable S ranks (M-Meta and M-Altaria) are two 'mons that can be very easily built around OR glued. Clefable - the other S rank - is more of an "X rank" for me in the respect that it can't be built around, and in that it solely acts as a glue for its teams. M-Scizor is like Clefable and Garchomp in that you can't specifically build around it. While some of the X ranks can be built around (namely M-Lop), they either don't act as effective glues, naturally get prepared for when building a team or do not feel on the same level as the S ranks (on a case-by-case basis). Really, Mega Scizor is something that you could justify for S all you want without it ever really feeling like a natural S rank, and the same goes for all of the "X ranks". I have made this analogy in the past, and it still holds true for all its cases. Generally, when something gets nominated to move between the S and A+ ranks, they either end up feeling like an "X rank" are are just poorly-chosen nominations.

Speaking of poorly-chosen nominations, idk why anyone wants Mega Metagross moved down. IMO Mega Metagross is still f*cking broken, so any kind of move out of S is just preposterous. Mega Metagross can deal with the vast majority of the metagame with just its STABs, it can cater itself to its team's needs with its other moves and it is virtually impossible to wall (you can wait a turn to mega in order to beat Skarmory 1v1 with Hammer Arm for example). It is a wallbreaker that can break the entire tier, so it should not move down.

This post is completely spot on, and explains exactly why M-Scizor and Clefable (this REALLY needs to go back to A+) shouldn't be S rank.

However, I feel that Charizard X is a true S rank Pokemon. I mean, M-Altaria can't actually reliably check it because if it comes switches in on the Dragon Dance:

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 198-234 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There's actually a ~50% chance of Char X OHKO'ing M-Altaria if it hasn't mega evolved yet (after taking 25% from Stealth Rocks).

It is just insanely powerful and under the right hands, kills 2-3 Pokemon before it goes down. The 'relatively' lower usage of Lando-T helps as well and as others as mentioned, the bulky Will-O-Wisp set can cripple its checks. It is a Pokemon that is very hard to play around right now.

 

[BlazeLatias]

This post is completely spot on, and explains exactly why M-Scizor and Clefable (this REALLY needs to go back to A+) shouldn't be S rank.

However, I feel that Charizard X is a true S rank Pokemon. I mean, M-Altaria can't actually reliably check it because if it comes switches in on the Dragon Dance:

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 198-234 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There's actually a ~50% chance of Char X OHKO'ing M-Altaria if it hasn't mega evolved yet (after taking 25% from Stealth Rocks).

It is just insanely powerful and under the right hands, kills 2-3 Pokemon before it goes down. The 'relatively' lower usage of Lando-T helps as well and as others as mentioned, the bulky Will-O-Wisp set can cripple its checks. It is a Pokemon that is very hard to play around right now.

I'm kinda iffy on chary-x being s rank atm. Won't lie he's really good now but he kinda is sitting in the middle of A+ and S right now. the meta still needs to change a bit in order for him to be s rank once again. I'd go into detail but on mobile.

 

[Anduril]

May I ask but what has Mega Aerodactyl A-?

Dactyl is a great cleaner and can kill many of the threatening faster pkmn like Bee, Lop, and Torn as well as decent bulk and a good movepool

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I don't understand why Clefable "REALLY needs to go back to A+". With CM being as deadly as it always has been, SR TWave on offense being a great glue, as well as Unaware Utility, or even Unaware Calm Mind each being incredibly effective and demanding of builders in that they must address these, Clefable seems to be the peak of the metagame at the moment, or at least for a non-Mega Pokemon. Clefable can counter so many different threats in this meta, from Mega Lopunny, to Thundurus and electrics in general, as well as common bulky Pokemon like Mega Sableye, and is really quite worthy of S imo. Yeah sure, a lot of steel types can give it trouble (though I quite dont understand why people try to use Ferrothorn to stop it when Gyro doesnt do too much to many common sets), but even Clefable has ways to beat them, such as Knock Off for non-Taunt Heatran, or fire coverage, etc.

Basically, Clefable is very worthy of S

 

[Unlucky Desperado]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-68125
replay of mega aero. My opponents only way of beating Aero was getting a stone miss or getting scizor in. My set was stone edge, aerial ace, fire fang, and aqua tail. With Tough Claws it hit really hard and his entire team being slower than my mega helped a lot. His team got weakened and I got a kill every time it came in.