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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Uh yeah Clefable is S rank for a reason so calling something weak because it can't 2HKO it is pretty silly. Outside of Unaware Clefable you have Mega Scizor, Keldeo, Azumarill, Klefki and only a handful of things that actually want to switch into Weavile on balance teams while it completely obliterates a great number of pokemon on offense. Obviously it shouldn't move up but there's no reason for it to move down at the moment (could do so if teams become fat af again). We all know it's frail as hell but when you're so fast you nearly always attack first then not being able to take a hit really isn't that big of a deal. Considering the number of things that Weavile totally obliterates just with its STAB moves (Garchomp, Latis, Gengar, Alakazam, Torn-T, Lando-T, Thundurus, Gliscor, Starmie, Serperior, offensive Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir), the general utility of Knock Off, then throw in either the ability to boost with SD on predicted switch-outs, Low Kick to bop things like Heatran, Ttar, weakened Ferros, or the ability to pursuit trap on top of that (without being choice locked like Ttar, just naturally outspeeding the common mons you want to trap), it's an easy A rank in this meta.
As for Zard Y this has been brought up several times. The SR weakness is actually pretty huge as unlike Talonflame, it doesn't have a priority attack or a priority Roost and really only has one set so it's rather predictable. Definitely a monster but its inability to switch in and out freely hinders its wallbreaking prowess greatly, plus how common its counters are (Latis, Mega Alt, SpDef Talon) and how many things check it including other weather abusers like ScarfTar. A rank is fine.
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Can I just point out how manipulating it is to calc megahorn versus alakazam? If you want to post some useful calcs post calcs versus something that's relevant, not a super effective hit versus one of the least bulkiest pokemon in the tier.While its good that it seems Manaphy will remain A+, I don't understand why people keep calling it a wallbreaker, when it's played more like a bulky sweeper or a tank. When I think wallbreaker, I think Kyu-B, Gardevoir and Heracross. These guys can 1-2HKO the majority of the tier without set-up. Any pokemon is threatening at +6, Manaphy can just get there faster than most. Now as for some of the other noms...
Weavile to A+? While Weavile is performing admirably, A+ is a pretty effing crowded bracket right now. I can't conceptualize exactly why I have trepidations in it moving up. It's just that the things in A+ are sooooo good, the face of OU, and I don't have that perception of Weavile yet. I guess I just need better convincing.
Mega Garchomp to B+? In all fairness, yeah, I think it's far more reliable in a wallbreaking role than either Medicham, Heracross, Diggersby, and indirectly to Gallade. Compared to Medicham directly, going from 102 to 92 in terms of speed is still better than going from 80 to 100 if you ask me. That's still one good turn to outspeed all base 100s the initial turn and act as a Tankchomp lure, allowing you to say use Stone Edge on that Char-Y sitting in front of you. In terms of boosting, Garchomp has SD, Medicham has PuP or Bulk Up, only a poor typing and mediocre defenses and speed to utilize it. Garchomp's defensive typing and bulk are astounding, and a Thunder Wave immunity doesn't hurt either. And despite being a wallbreaker, none are boned like Medicham thanks to Protect users. Can you believe it's actually a risk to net the otherwise easy OHKO on Heatran, or Ferrothorn, with HJK when so many carry Protect? Not to mention having a Sableye or Gengar makes you hesitant to even use your best wallbreaking move at all. This means it has to use support options like Fake Out and Substitute to net megavolving, get chip damage, and scout, leaving your coverage severely lacking, as dual STAB alone performs woefully. While it hits harder than anything, many other wallbreakers hit hard enough, and more consistently, that the end result is I almost always find Medicham lacking. Garchomp has better dual STAB options, and can attack specially to get past would be checks, or be bulky to outlast other would be checks, and finally can turn the opponent's sand against them, as Hippo and Tyranitar are quite common, making Garchomp all the better a wallbreaker.
So in short,at the very least, Mega Garchomp for B+, and while we are at itMega Medicham for B. Mega Garchomp is far more consistent overall with much better stats, typing and movepool. While we are on the topic of wallbreakers, and if these two changes get implemented, I also nominate
Mega Heracross to B as well. In terms of wallbreaking it's still among the best in terms of raw power, and its amazing Skill Link attacks, and good boosting options. But my main argument is the state of the meta game is unfavorable to it. Fire, Fairy, and Flying (the three Fs), are all en vogue, as well as speed, and these are all poor trends for Heracross. Which is a shame, because it's bulk is fantastic at 80/115/105 with decent typing, but you'd need to go max/max for SpD to handle checks. This isn't a huge loss as its ludicrous 185 attack stat that makes even Kyurem-B blush sits at a pretty 446 with an Adamant nature and 0 EVs. To put in perspective, that's roughly 20 points higher still than 252+ Haxorus and 252 Mega Gallade, and those aren't offensive slouches. And you can boost on top of that. However, finding the opportunity to boost is difficult as it should be hitting switch ins, and it's also susceptible to all forms of status. If anything, its base iteration performs better in this meta.
0+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 210-245 (69.7 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarf Heracross performs admirably against offensive and defensive teams alike, whereas Mega Heracross really shines against defensive teams. Jolly Guts Megahorn hits harder than even Adamant 252 Pin Missle, and Heracross can actually hit first. Scarf sets outspeed even Timid Mega Alakazam, and even without Guts activated, here are all the relevant OHKOs it can get against sweepers.
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 458-542 (153.1 - 181.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 542-638 (209.2 - 246.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 486-572 (172.9 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 524-618 (186.4 - 219.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 398-470 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (revenge +1 Mega Gyarados)
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 540-636 (158.3 - 186.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (revenge +1 Mega Tyranitar)
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 229-270 (81.4 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 196-232 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
You get the point. So really, I think the gap between the Hera's needs to be narrowed for the current meta. So I nominateHeracross for B- It's much better than the rest of C+ tier.
Mega Tyranitar for B+? No kidding, this thing was never bad, and its stats are just... ridiculous. But while it can set up easily, its still quite slow for a DD user, and being weak to Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch and Mach Punch is really bad news. Yeah, it has the bulk to survive most priority outside of Mach Punch, but when it comes to performing as a sweeper, it doesn't get nearly as much mileage as Charizard-X or Mega Gyarados. Granted, there's already a justifiable gap between them, but I've only seen meta trends be less favorable for Megatar, not better. If anything, I think an Adamant Rock Polish set with 180 HP / 252 At / 76 Spe would perform better. Adamant lets you hit a bit harder right out of the gate so you can attack without boosts if necessary, you get a sizeable increase in bulk with the HP investment, and with RP you now outspeed even Mega Alakazam. Tyranitar has the blessing of such a good offensive movepool you can take out anything you want between three moves, even lure things like Landorus-T with Ice Beam with the right EV adjustments (more speed and Nature that doesn't lower SpA). But I think its position is fine where it is, as I'm just speculating. Keep Mega Tyranitar B
Mega Venusaur in A+? His role as a blanket check to the meta is a bit overstated. As I've said before, numerous trends are still holding it back, like Tornadus-T as a small one, Char-X as another (loses to bulky wisp and SD hard, needs EQ to stand any chance). There's also a plethora of Steel types with a field day setting up on it like Bisharp and Mega Scizor. It's dual STABs are niche for a reason, they compliment each other horribly. In practice, Mega Venu gets worn down fast and quick thanks to Spikes, SR, Sand, Scald burns, no Leftovers, and inconsistent healing from Giga Drain and Synthesis. Also its speed lets it down as it is prime poke prey for the plethora of popular wallbreakers or just offensive threats with SE STABS like Mega Gardevoir, (M) Alakazam, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, both Charizards, Thundurus, Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, Mega Medicham, the Latis, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Pinsir, Mega Garchomp, Jirachi, Dragalge, Mew, Reuniclus (etc.) I mean, is it common for something in A+ to be threatened by so much and still be considered a blanket check? Now don't get me wrong, Mega Venusaur is a big-ass nuisance for a ton of popular threats, including two S rankers single handedly. But it isn't A+ worthy in my opinion. Mega Venusaur stays A
That statement is the only silly thing here. Clef has 95, 73, 90 bulk as a defensive mon. Keldeos bulk (who was S rank a while ago) is 91, 90, 90 as an offensive one. Clefs bulk is far from good for a defensive mon, even fully invested with leftovers it can barely live the hits it wants to. Clef is S rank for a reason, but the reason is not its massive physical bulk. Keldeo has an univested def Value of 216, Clef with 160 def EVs gets 222, and Weavile can barely break that with neutral stab hits. That IS weak. And beeing fast doesn't help if your frail as fuck and to weak to ohko because you can't take the echo.
Seriously? I posted 10 calcs of fast offensive relevant threats, was it really worth nitpicking a single one and ignoring all the others? As if that single calc was somehow the crux of my argument. At least have some constructive criticism to go along with it. It clogs the thread worse then it gets already.
And because I don't want to be hypocritical about the content of this post itself, I'll just throw out that Char-Y should remain A and Clefable is not leaving S, because reasons.
If you want to look at everything purely in terms of stats then Clefable is just total garbage as a defensive Pokemon. But this is not so in practice; its typing and STELLAR defensive abilities (magic guard being one of the absolute best for a defensive mon and unaware not too far behind) make it quite a pain to take out. The other thing is that EV investment makes a considerable difference so invested Clefable is clearly bulkier than Keldeo with little to no defensive investment.
In short, you may try to tear down Clefables bulk if you want but the reality is its much harder to take out than its stats imply. Being unable to 2HKO Clefable is not a testament to Weaviles weakness sincetons of things have trouble securing a 2HKO including Rash Kyu-b, Mega Diancie and plenty of other fairly powerful Pokemon.
But how often is it going to hit those offensive threats? Not that often, more often than not you're going to be hitting pokemon like rotom-w, hippowdown, skarmory and zapdos, so why not calc those? I mean, who is surprised that Heracross OHKOs Weavile, Serperior and Mega Sceptile?
Just so that the post isn't a shitpost
Charizard-Y should stay in A, it has too many counters that are not only viable but extremely common when you couple that with stealth rock reducing its ability to double switch around to pressure the opponent. It is, however, often paired with gothitelle or a pursuit trapper which negates many of its common counters like Latias. But Altaria still exist and it doesn't care about trapping, nor does it care about pursuit so A is fine.
Uh,I agree that zard Y should remain A rank but your points aren't good,first of all there aren't a lot of zard Y counters which are common are Talonflame,latis and mega alt , the fact is there are a lot of zard Y checks in ORAS which can easily revenge kill it also the sr weakness makes it more terrible uh not terrible but u know,also as bludz said it don't have priority roost or attacking move like Talonflame.
While I agree that Char Y is a deadly stall/balance breaker, it has been my experience that the current meta-game is extremely unfriendly to it. Many of it's counters are increasing in usage, and overall, it requires more support than the average mega imo due to it's sr weakness and middling speed. I prefer my wallbreakers to come in/out more easily and with less support than Char Y
I mean you have to understand the concept of the calcs. He is clearly showcasing SCARF heracross, and he is showing you that it can outspeed and ohko alot of staples on HO with just its stabs. Those bulkier mons you mentioned would be more so targets of guts toxic orb heracross, which yea he could have also mentioned in his nomination. I have been using a jolly guts heracross a bit so i can showcase some of those calcs:
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 358-423 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 352-415 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 399-471 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 324-382 (97 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 403-475 (133 - 156.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 385-454 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So as you can say this thing is an absolute monster even without adamant, and i do think it the gap between it and the mega version should be closed bit by moving it up to B-. It has the freedom to setup in the face of status users and pretty much go to town against slower teams, and if played optimally will often take down a majority of stall cores before it dies from status. In comparing it to the mega, it is a bit stronger once its status ailment kicks in comparing their +2 combat on hippowdown:
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 357-421 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 399-471 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Normal hera has ten more base speed, hits a bit harder after a guts boost, doesn't care about status so it can freely setup on more things like mega sabeleye who think they can get off a free wisp, and doesnt take up the mega slot. I run toxic orb on mine for consistency in getting the status in case the opponent is smart enough to not to wisp, and you have yourself a pretty fearsome wallbreaker. A problem with heracross compared to its mega is that it lacks the extra bulk, and of course heracross will be worn down much more quickly since it will be statused more often than not. Another is that regular heracross isn't rewarded as much for predicting a talon flame switchin since it usually will run facade over rock blast due to the inconsistency of rock blast without skill link:
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-347 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But if you do opt to run rock blast on regular heracross it still puts in work:
252 Atk Guts Heracross Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 636-756 (214.1 - 254.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 414-492 (107.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Normal Hera also has an easier time with clef :
252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A flaw with both of them is that it finds difficulty putting in work against faster teams of course do to mediocre base speed. But as shown by Jaroda, normal heracross still has the luxury unlike the mega to boost its speed with a choice scarf and gain the ability to wreck havoc on offensive teams !!! So i do think that if mega hera is B+ its counterpart should be in B- or B (B might be too much) , as it is not too far off from it. I also do think that heracross is better than the majority of the stuff in C+ as well.
Char y I agree should stay A. Its 4 times weak to SR, and is pretty much a one trick pony when it comes to its wall breaking prowess, and is still walled by things like chansey , spdef talon flame,av slowking, and the lati twins to name a few. In its fairness the majority of those are pursuit trappable but there are still things left unaccounted for that char y pressures his team to get rid of, and its momentum is killed by opposing weather cores. (scarf tar, politoed, and sand rush excadrill) .
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Metagross for C- rank at least: The AV set is a pretty reliable answer to Lati's, Mega Altaria, Clefable, and Togekiss as well being able to check a good few threats such as Kyurem-Black, Mega Venusaur, Thundurus, Weavile, and is capable off luring Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Landorus T (All this depends on moveset of course but it is defo not a D rank mon).
Also would like to nominate Ludicolo to be raised to round about C rank as well, just purely because the thing is a fucking monster in rain with very little stops and just tears offense open.
Also would like to nominate Ludicolo to be raised to round about C rank as well, just purely because the thing is a fucking monster in rain with very little stops and just tears offense open.
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Here is the thing, in a practical match AV Metagross can make you lose momentum pretty badly because it is made to counter very specific checks and otherwise can struggle to fight against the rest of the OU, also because of its speed it can be a one trick pony on many ocassions, is not something like Slowking for example, who aside from being a great special wall ahs the ability to last a decent amount of time to check more than one mon, AV Metagross will in most cases check one specific treat and fail to check the others because he has no way to heal back damage and being outspeed by a lot of things makes it worse(since some pokes can check mons more consistently because A) they are faster or B)they have a good way to heal damage.)
Also in regards of Megachomp I don't think it should raise, Megacham could drop, tough.
We actually had a bit of a debate about Ludicolo when it first dropped from D. The main thing it has is STAB Giga Drain for a reasonably solid matchup against opposing rain (Kabutops, Omastar, and Mega Swampert are all double-weak to Grass). However, Kabutops actually can outspeed it and one-shot it with Stone Edge, and as a special Swift Swimmer in general it faces competition from Kingdra, who has a superior typing and greater overall power (though relying on 80% and 90% moves can be an issue, but then, Scald and Dragon Pulse). Heck, even Manaphy can do anti-rain better, having a slight advantage in power due to its higher attacking stat and using Energy Ball, while also being fatter and having a setup move.
Charizard Y should really stay A...
I've used Charizard Y a lot more than X, simply because I hate fat balance but the thing is so easy to revenge kill, especially if you go full power route and use Modest. I mean, there are some coverage moves that actually help against some threats, it does get Ancient Power, Dragon Pulse, etc, but I wouldn't really use those over Roost. Char Y has always been cool imo, but it just is so easy to revenge kill, it's lackluster speed stat compared to other offensive 'mons makes it bad, it's poor physical bulk especially,it can get RKed by a couple of physical RKers. Now you could tell me 'But, Kami, Charizard Y is a wallbreaker!' I know this, but then we come to the realization that Balance probably has at least one 'mon that's able to poop on Char Y by outspeeding it, and Stall usually carries Chansey, Blissey, or something that can sponge Char Y's hits easily. Char Y isn't dead weight against offense, it can probably kill one thing as long as it can tank a special hit, but since Mega Altaria came out there's another big counter right there. Metagame trends really don't like Char Y, it's still effective but it isn't fit for a rise, maybe in early OR/AS, but not now.
Not to be mean, but non mega Heracross runs Stone Edge.
Just so you know.
Oh. And Focus Blast too. That's cool, but Kabutops gets Low Kick, MSwamp does too, so other rain sweepers have a way to get around Ferro too.
I've used Charizard Y a lot more than X, simply because I hate fat balance but the thing is so easy to revenge kill, especially if you go full power route and use Modest. I mean, there are some coverage moves that actually help against some threats, it does get Ancient Power, Dragon Pulse, etc, but I wouldn't really use those over Roost. Char Y has always been cool imo, but it just is so easy to revenge kill, it's lackluster speed stat compared to other offensive 'mons makes it bad, it's poor physical bulk especially,it can get RKed by a couple of physical RKers. Now you could tell me 'But, Kami, Charizard Y is a wallbreaker!' I know this, but then we come to the realization that Balance probably has at least one 'mon that's able to poop on Char Y by outspeeding it, and Stall usually carries Chansey, Blissey, or something that can sponge Char Y's hits easily. Char Y isn't dead weight against offense, it can probably kill one thing as long as it can tank a special hit, but since Mega Altaria came out there's another big counter right there. Metagame trends really don't like Char Y, it's still effective but it isn't fit for a rise, maybe in early OR/AS, but not now.
Lord Xen III said:
Not to be mean, but non mega Heracross runs Stone Edge.
Just so you know.
Ludicolo isn't that good. It's E rank, it's a weak Rain sweeper compared to Kingdra or Omastar, and the only thing it brings to the table is... a better matchup vs other rain? I honestly don't think that's a good enough reason to bump it up two subranks. I mean, rain should probably pack something against other rain anyway because sometimes there's a power struggle there, and momentum can be hard to grab, but I wouldn't use Ludicolo as my opposing rain check, it's weak outside of that.Wiz T7 said:
Oh. And Focus Blast too. That's cool, but Kabutops gets Low Kick, MSwamp does too, so other rain sweepers have a way to get around Ferro too.
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Altaria can barely be called a check to 'Zard Y IMO. DD rarely has moves to hit it neutrally and any set will need heavy bulk investment (248 HP / 4 SpD - yes, those last four matter) to survive two Timid 'Zard Y Fire Blasts, and further investment simply is not worth it.
EDIT: Further investment isn't worth it on an offensive set, yeah I overlooked defensive ones.
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Even if Zard Y resists Return, a few boosts with DD will be enough for Altaria to do heavy damage to Zard Y as Pixilate Return is still quite powerful with boosts and Zard Y isn't very bulky physically. Oh and most Altaria will run bulk investment anyways.
Not going to comment on the noms but just a comment here.
Metagross was semi-viable with a Scarf set with Pursuit as a cute way to trap the Lati's and crippling bulky mons like Slowbro with Trick. But then it got a Mega which pretty much made regular Metagross a liability. I suppose with a Scarf it doesn't have to mega evolve first to become fast but that still doesn't justify using it.
Also Charizard-Y can in fact sweep with Flame Charge assuming you take care of stuff like Sand, Talonflame and Thundurus-I but that applies to pretty much every offensive mon. Don't bring up Roost because that's not the point of a Flame Charge set. You use it on a predicted switch or to finish off a weakened mon and sweep from there with +1 speed and 4 turns of Sun. No time or space on such a set to use Roost. You generally don't want to be clicking Roost anyways unless you really have to, as Zard-Y is such a nuke that you'd rather get kills with Fire Blast.
And Mega Altaria can't switch in on Zard-Y, just saying. It beats it 1 vs 1 barring Will-o-Wisp variants while you don't have Heal Bell, but it can't take 2 Fire Blasts after SR.
Also Charizard-Y can in fact sweep with Flame Charge assuming you take care of stuff like Sand, Talonflame and Thundurus-I but that applies to pretty much every offensive mon. Don't bring up Roost because that's not the point of a Flame Charge set. You use it on a predicted switch or to finish off a weakened mon and sweep from there with +1 speed and 4 turns of Sun. No time or space on such a set to use Roost. You generally don't want to be clicking Roost anyways unless you really have to, as Zard-Y is such a nuke that you'd rather get kills with Fire Blast.
And Mega Altaria can't switch in on Zard-Y, just saying. It beats it 1 vs 1 barring Will-o-Wisp variants while you don't have Heal Bell, but it can't take 2 Fire Blasts after SR.
Standard DDD Altaria runs 248 HP / 96 SpD and bulky support runs 248 HP / 156 SpD
Granted Altaria isn't doing a whole lot back to Zard Y but it can stall out sun and Fire Blasts.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 137-162 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 130-153 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
There's also the matter of Cloud Nine:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Altaria: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Altaria: 87-102 (24.6 - 28.8%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So yeah, offensive DD Altaria isn't switching in well at all, but the bulky variants can take it on.
Granted Altaria isn't doing a whole lot back to Zard Y but it can stall out sun and Fire Blasts.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 137-162 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 130-153 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
There's also the matter of Cloud Nine:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Altaria: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Altaria: 87-102 (24.6 - 28.8%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So yeah, offensive DD Altaria isn't switching in well at all, but the bulky variants can take it on.
Those boosts aren't all that relevant when we're discussing MAlt as a check to 'Zard Y rather than 'Zard Y as a check to MAlt. Also, it's a bit difficult to determine the amount of bulky MAlt EV spreads as the results on the usage stats seem quite mixed:
1695:
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 9.232% | | Impish:248/0/136/0/96/28 7.842% | | Jolly:40/212/12/0/40/204 6.175% | | Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 3.934% | | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.813% | | Modest:248/0/0/168/0/92 3.514%
1825:
| Impish:248/0/136/0/96/28 8.530% | | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 5.731% | | Jolly:40/212/12/0/40/204 4.817% | | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.568% | | Naughty:0/252/0/4/0/252 3.445% | | Jolly:48/252/0/0/0/208 3.174%
True. Additionally, Cloud Nine doesn't see much use but I really do believe that it has its merit (I think I've used it more than Natural Cure on teams I've built).
Whether Altaria counters Zard-Y or not is not going to be the difference between A and A+, so I don't know why we are spending so much time on it. I think it should be A+ from personal experience. This Mon gets at least one kill every game, especially annihilating balance teams. I think it is around Manaphy in terms of effectiveness, but the issue is that it is a mega. What pushes it to A+ for me is the fact that it beats popular Mons like torn-t, weavile, and clefable with its pure power, decent bulk, great coverage, and ability to dodge hurricanes. Also, the guessing game of X vs Y helps it, as your opponent may preserve the wrong Mons to try to beat your Zard.
no, zard y doesn't fit as well in the faster, more offensive meta that we have right now. It gets very few switch-ins and removing hazards is more difficult in this meta than it has been in the past (latios and Latias aren't as effective, Exca doesn't like giving up SD, and Starmie is just not as good considerng all the better Water types you can choose for your teams). Still a powerful threat, but just not as effective as it has been in the past imo.
IMO char y requires a bit too much extra support to be A+. ITs just a one trick pony, and several things still wall it and doesn't have any other good coverage options other than fire stab focus miss /eQ solar beam and the obligatory roost, and that 4 times weakness to SR pressures the defogger a lot, cause otherwise your just coming in roosting, then going out, and its a big momentum killer at times. As someone compared earlier, talon flame is a fire/flying type is who is A+. while they have different roles a point of comparison is that talon flame has better speed and and has priority roost, so at least it is able to get some more roosts up and keep it self healthy even if it does have to give up momentum switching out. Talon flame also is much more versatile in its roles and can play around some of its checks better without giving up crucial moves, and char y still takes up a mega slot. I think thats enough to keep tflame and char y separated by a sub rank
i'd say the strategy of using mega charizard y is much more effective than its individual effectiveness. the combination of a pursuit user such as bisharp, tyranitar, weavile,...with this allows mega charizard y to be much more threatening, and the support it requires and being a very one-sided 'mon is what really plays in it from not being a+ rank. in addition to this, the metagame has a lot more fun in dealing with megazardy as well. this isn't early xy where "oh ill pursuit trap with bisharp lololol zardy sweep gg" considering you have mega altaria now which doesn't get pursuit trapped and can seriously screw up these archetypes. the metagame is much faster as well which we can see in the rise of tornadus-t, raikou, weavile, and alakazam. balance teams will usually have something to tank a hit and cripple back like thunder wave clefable or something faster in general like latias. while it seems like i can just pursuit trap it, it just seems way to predictable and causes a head ache on both sides of the field with mind games. other reliable checks that don't get pursuited are chansey, reflect type mega latias, specially defensive talonflame, tyranitar, and dragalge. zardy just faces so many more roadblocks with these current metagame trends, i don't believe a rise is needed. its simply not as effective as a+ rank wallbreakers such as gengar and manaphy which have easier times doing their job of crapping on balance. zardy is still super effective so don't act like im hating, just not as effective as it was in xy and earlier stages.
enough zardy ninja'do by AM
small request but i'd like to see mega ampharos in c+ simply because it's stabs + focus blast as an offensive attacker is actually much more threatening in practice because of the typing it provides. the only things that really get ampharos's way are like mega altaria, the blobs, and super fast stuff like mega alakazam and weavile. hazard stacking is pretty popular as well so it can abuse stuff like spikes to help sweep. the typing it brings also let's it function early game as a powerful attacker against teams lacking mega altaria, blobs,...and simply just plows holes into the offense with 165 base special attack thunderbolts and dragon pulses. focus blast lets it take care of the rest like ferrothorn, heatran, and tyranitar. while switch-in oppurtunities seems limited, the metagame is actually shifting a little bit towards ampharos outside of the hyped weavile usage. raikou, tornadus-t, rotom-w, mega charizard y, heatran, mega manectric, slowking, talonflame, celebi, slowbro, gyarados (can come in on mega waterfall), thundurus, and (mega) scizor are all mons i can list at the top of my head but there are definitely more. balance teams just are asking for mega ampharos to come in and standard checks end up getting 2hkoed on the switch such as hippowdon with dragon pulse. offensive teams usually carry stuff like tornadus-t, raikou, scizor...in which ampharos can use as free kill bait. this thing is much more terrifying in practice. agility was just a little icing on the cake to sweep teams, and you have ton of set up bait in this metagame anyways. the bulk amphy possesses is one of the reasons why its a majestic attacker to begin with. all-out attackers sets exist too which are cool with defensive investment. speaking of defensive investment, specially defensive amphy is a phenomenal 'mon as it comes in on the aforementioned incomplete list and forces out / walls these threats. it also has that slow volt switch to bring in some crazy offensive force such as gengar for example. defensive sets are not one time checks to stuff like zardy (non pursuitable too). they do huge defensive work and provide that aforementioned momentum. defensive amphy creates a cool volt turn core with one of the best mons in the tier too in landorus-t which sets up rocks and takes on physically inclined things like excadrill. the core also allows you to capatilize on hazard damage making mega ampharos a lot more to see than with the naked eye. very worthy of c+ and I wouldn't be surprised for it to be b- as well. seems like im overhyping and i admit to it, but it's all true and mega ampharos in c is a joke.
enough zardy ninja'do by AM
small request but i'd like to see mega ampharos in c+ simply because it's stabs + focus blast as an offensive attacker is actually much more threatening in practice because of the typing it provides. the only things that really get ampharos's way are like mega altaria, the blobs, and super fast stuff like mega alakazam and weavile. hazard stacking is pretty popular as well so it can abuse stuff like spikes to help sweep. the typing it brings also let's it function early game as a powerful attacker against teams lacking mega altaria, blobs,...and simply just plows holes into the offense with 165 base special attack thunderbolts and dragon pulses. focus blast lets it take care of the rest like ferrothorn, heatran, and tyranitar. while switch-in oppurtunities seems limited, the metagame is actually shifting a little bit towards ampharos outside of the hyped weavile usage. raikou, tornadus-t, rotom-w, mega charizard y, heatran, mega manectric, slowking, talonflame, celebi, slowbro, gyarados (can come in on mega waterfall), thundurus, and (mega) scizor are all mons i can list at the top of my head but there are definitely more. balance teams just are asking for mega ampharos to come in and standard checks end up getting 2hkoed on the switch such as hippowdon with dragon pulse. offensive teams usually carry stuff like tornadus-t, raikou, scizor...in which ampharos can use as free kill bait. this thing is much more terrifying in practice. agility was just a little icing on the cake to sweep teams, and you have ton of set up bait in this metagame anyways. the bulk amphy possesses is one of the reasons why its a majestic attacker to begin with. all-out attackers sets exist too which are cool with defensive investment. speaking of defensive investment, specially defensive amphy is a phenomenal 'mon as it comes in on the aforementioned incomplete list and forces out / walls these threats. it also has that slow volt switch to bring in some crazy offensive force such as gengar for example. defensive sets are not one time checks to stuff like zardy (non pursuitable too). they do huge defensive work and provide that aforementioned momentum. defensive amphy creates a cool volt turn core with one of the best mons in the tier too in landorus-t which sets up rocks and takes on physically inclined things like excadrill. the core also allows you to capatilize on hazard damage making mega ampharos a lot more to see than with the naked eye. very worthy of c+ and I wouldn't be surprised for it to be b- as well. seems like im overhyping and i admit to it, but it's all true and mega ampharos in c is a joke.
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