Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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starry blanket

骑虎难下
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I also support Suicune dropping to B. As bludz said, Rest isn't really the best recovery move, and fishing for Scald burns isn't the most efficient thing in the world. Also, Sleep Talk can be rather luck reliant on the CroCune set, and ATM we have other good bulky water Calm Mind'ers in Manaphy and Mega Slowbro. Manaphy gets Hydration, meaning it can run Rain Dance > Sleep Talk for a more consistent set, and CroBro has Shell Armor which prevents crits. Furthermore, when we look outside of the CroCune set, Suicune doesn't really offer too much... it has some nice support moves in Tailwind and Roar, and you can some more offensive moves like a Hidden Power, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, maybe Extrasensory(?), but again: this isn't really bringing too much to the table. Speaking on the support moves: Roar is pretty neat, but we have other options for bulky water type phazers in Empoleon and Tentacruel, and we have a good amount of other phazers in the tier like Hippowdon, Skarmory, Garchomp, etc. Tailwind on a water type with nice bulk is a cool niche, but Tailwind itself isn't all that great, and we have other faster Tailwind users like Talonflame (priority). Speaking on the offensive moves: Suicune as a more offensive Pokemon is terribly outclassed. We have Manaphy, Keldeo, Starmie, and Kingdra (for rain mainly). Manaphy and Keldeo are both sitting in A+, and Starmei is sitting in A... Sure you can run an offensive Calm Mind Suicune that has some nice bulk, but you can run Calm Mind Keldeo, or Tail Glow Manaphy, or Calm Mind Manaphy lol. A more offensive Suicune is just really outclassed right now.

tl;dr: Suicune for B because its main set (CroCune) is now in competition with CroBro and CM + Rest + RD Manaphy. Also, the CroCune set isn't that efficient considering you have to rely on some luck with Sleep Talk and Scald burns. Outside of CroCune, Suicune's other options aren't that great. It has some neat support options in Tailwind and Roar, but offensively it has LOTS of competition...
 
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Lol you need to stop insulting people as well. You're really undermining Weavile's effectiveness to be honest, and looking at such as narrow standpoint is unfair. Over half of these aren't even that reliable of answers to Weavile because of the extremely annoying move that Weavile possesses called Knock Off, rendering a lot of otherwise-solid switch-ins such as Keldeo, Clefable, and Azumarill crippled. Zard X isn't even a reliable answer when Knock Off / Low Kick + Icicle Crash is a solid KO. I've talked about Clefable before - "You're neglecting the fact that Clefable is overloaded at times, and as such, will not always be at full health due to its requirement to pivot in and check a variety of Pokemon such as Kyurem-B, Mega Lopunny, and Keldeo. Magic Guard Clefable loses to Weavile when it has taken around 10% damage as Icicle Crash then 2HKOes, and all variants of Clefable hate switching into Knock Off as without Leftovers Clefable is stripped of its ability to reliably check aforementioned threats. Swords Dance Weavile is also a legitimate set that completely cleans out Clefable." Azumarill and Keldeo dislike Knock Off a lot, and can't consistenly switch into Weavile after a Knock Off particularly as they lack reliable recovery, especially as Weavile is faster and after a Knock Off Icicle Crash 2HKOes both of them. Lopunny can't switch in whatsoever. Mega Sableye is a counter only for Calm Mind variants, as utility Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Icicle Crash after Stealth Rock. Mega Scizor yes it's a counter. Talonflame lol, it can't switch into anything bar Low Kick, and most of the time Weavile uses its STAB moves anyway. Ferrothorn is beaten by two consecutive Low Kicks or Knock Off + Low Kick. Mega Manectric can't switch into Icicle Crash, it's only a check. Rotom-W hates Knock Off, it's only a check as it lacks recovery and can't switch in repeatedly. Skarmory isn't even a counter lol when Knock Off is its worst enemy and Brave Bird only does like 50% back and Weavile 3HKOes, not to mention specially defensive sets (the best ones right now), are KOed by the combination of Knock Off + Icicle Crash. Mega Venusuar isn't a counter lol, a check at best. A check =/= revenge killer, remember that. Mega Alakazam is shaky as fuck when everything bar Low Kick does a fuckton to it if not outright OHKO. Mega Aerodactyl lol, the Icicle Crash switch-in. Klefki and Mega Slowbro are good counters. Mega Heracross is 2HKOed by Icicle Crash and outsped as well, conveniently. Quagsire and Suicune yes sort of but losing Leftovers is detrimental, more of hard checks if anything, and rely on Scald. Vanilla Scizor yeah but Scizor without a Choice Band is kinda meh. Tentacruel lol. Conkeldurr isn't a counter because it hates losing its Life Orb / Assault Vest and can't switch into Icicle Crash. Only physically defensive Sylveon, which is kinda meh, counters Weavile.
I don't see a reason to be nice and polite if someone comes at me with that kind of attitude. That beeing said, I am already sick of this "discussion" so i will only say two things.

1. I am not doubting Weaviles effectiveness against offense, it excels vs that playstyle no questions asked (though there is still the issue of getting it in). But on the other side its not much of a threat to balance/stall teams and while stall isn't that common, balance still is. If the meta was all about offense rn i would be perfectly fine with A, but its not.

2. I specifically said checks and counters and wrote the counters in bold. So thanks for telling me that Talonflame and Lopunny aren't counters because they can't switch in but, believe it or not, i already knew that. And from what i know the definition of a counter is to be able to switch into any move and win the 1on1. Rotom-W does that. I haven't seen a definition of it here on smogon where its stated that reliable recovery is required to be considered a counter. I sometimes get the feeling that people here change the definitions to their liking to prove their points.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
well if we wanna strictly compare suicune to cm rd manaphy, its not always in favor of manaphy.
There's actually one thing that people are forgetting. I mean suicune is quite a bit more bulky but a tad slower, but other than that.

There's this one weird turn manaphy has where it cannot either rain dance nor rest. I'm sure people who've used this set quite a bit will have realized this. In the top left corner, when it says "2 or 5 turns left," that is the last turn you can rest.
You may like to think that the last turn is when it says "1 or 4 turns left," but in reality, rain ends before hydration activates. Thus, your manaphy is just bait for two turns if you rest on the last turn of rain. It must wait that turn out, set up rain, and then rest in order to heal hp from that turn.
That's 3 turns of taking damage and not being able to heal it back. Sure, you get 3 turns of unlimited healing, but the point is, those 3 turns where u have to survive ultimately makes rd cm more erratic than restalk. Seems weird to say but i'd rather be able to reliably heal.

It definitely has competition as a water type, as a calm minder, and as a mon in general, but its still more consistent than cm rd manaphy, has a better typing than cm slowbro (and/or doesn't take a mega slot), and has pressure which means it can win 1v1 cm wars against things without psyshock or stored power. I personally would like it to stay where it is.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Yeah why do people think cune should drop? It wins cm wars with pressure, doesnt care about status since rest talk, isnt a psychic type so can take knock offs, can burn things with scald, and should not be lower than B+. I've used it a lot on balance, and once the opposing team gets burnt with scald, your team can put in work. I don't think it's any worse than things like slowking in B+. I don't know why this bandwagon started and it should stop pretty soon.
Also Weavile is staying A for a while, it has risen a lot already, so don't try to make it go to A+.
 
I don't see a reason to be nice and polite if someone comes at me with that kind of attitude. That beeing said, I am already sick of this "discussion" so i will only say two things.

1. I am not doubting Weaviles effectiveness against offense, it excels vs that playstyle no questions asked (though there is still the issue of getting it in). But on the other side its not much of a threat to balance/stall teams and while stall isn't that common, balance still is. If the meta was all about offense rn i would be perfectly fine with A, but its not.

2. I specifically said checks and counters and wrote the counters in bold. So thanks for telling me that Talonflame and Lopunny aren't counters because they can't switch in but, believe it or not, i already knew that. And from what i know the definition of a counter is to be able to switch into any move and win the 1on1. Rotom-W does that. I haven't seen a definition of it here on smogon where its stated that reliable recovery is required to be considered a counter. I sometimes get the feeling that people here change the definitions to their liking to prove their points.
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters Yea people do alter the definition a lot

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.


It doesn't say anything about reliable recovery. So keldeo counters it , its just annoyed by having its item knocked off, but doesn't make it any less of a counter. But even this definition is misleading, And people seem to be under the conception that a counter has to switch in 3 million times, i mean this is more likely to happen if the counter is a defensive mon, but even realistically that doesn't happen. I call something a counter if it can generally avoid a 2hko from most of the viable moves a mon can run, especially if its an offensive mon since i don't know since when offensive mons were supposed to be bulky in the first place or have reliable recovery, since generally on hyper offense you sack to come in and check threats.

But with that aside i do think in previous posts you were taking an unwarranted dump on weavile's abilities and thats what generated those inflammatory responses you got. I think the flaws you mentioned are worthy of it not being A+, but its fine in A. IT can threaten slower teams with SD + knock off utility, and lots of offensive builds struggle with weavile atm, as while keldeo and azumarill are counters they become crippled to a degree from doing their job for their respective teams after weavile was taken out. Weavile can also provide pursuit support if necessary , and it also has poison jab if your team needs to lure in those pesky fairies. So weavile while it has longetivity issues compared to other offensive threats, definitely leaves its marks on teams with its amazing offensive dual stabs and speed.
 
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Im going to nom kyurem b to A plus for one reason....There's literally no solid checks to this thing.... It has amazing stats with good/great bulk and can runa variety of sets like sub,roost,scarf,band,lo.... Its another very easy mon to build around and just destroys the meta rn..


Not the most detailed nom because there's nothing else to say this thing is just powerful
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Im going to nom kyurem b to A plus for one reason....There's literally no solid checks to this thing.... It has amazing stats with good/great bulk and can runa variety of sets like sub,roost,scarf,band,lo.... Its another very easy mon to build around and just destroys the meta rn..


Not the most detailed nom because there's nothing else to say this thing is just powerful
There is more to say because you completely forget about all the issues it has which prevents it from going A+. It is one of the best switchins for offensive teams against Starmie and Manaphy, but it is easily pressured by a rocks weakness, scald burns and life orb recoil. A metagame full of Keldeo, Clefable, Scizor, Ferrothorn and Excadrill is just not kind to Kyurem-B, even if Kyurem-B can lure them in with HP Fire or Iron Head. It fails to find opportunities to switch in against many pokemon because its mediocre typing and weakness to rocks can easily wear it down (it can actually beat many pokemon 1v1, but because it is so weak to hazards, it will often lose the matchup) even with Roost it is not that hard to wear it down. Also consider that Roost only has 3 coverage moves (EP, Ice Beam, Fusion Bolt most of the time) which leaves Kyurem-B walled by pokemon like Clefable, Ferrothorn, MScizor and Mega Slowbro.

A is nice but A+ is definitely too high
 
There is more to say because you completely forget about all the issues it has which prevents it from going A+. It is one of the best switchins for offensive teams against Starmie and Manaphy, but it is easily pressured by a rocks weakness, scald burns and life orb recoil. A metagame full of Keldeo, Clefable, Scizor, Ferrothorn and Excadrill is just not kind to Kyurem-B, even if Kyurem-B can lure them in with HP Fire or Iron Head. It fails to find opportunities to switch in against many pokemon because its mediocre typing and weakness to rocks can easily wear it down (it can actually beat many pokemon 1v1, but because it is so weak to hazards, it will often lose the matchup) even with Roost it is not that hard to wear it down. Also consider that Roost only has 3 coverage moves (EP, Ice Beam, Fusion Bolt most of the time) which leaves Kyurem-B walled by pokemon like Clefable, Ferrothorn, MScizor and Mega Slowbro.

A is nice but A+ is definitely too high
Your three things that you said were kyurem b main problems.... rocks weakness is the only one that is in semi true.... scald burns happens to everyone and subs carry sub.... kyurem b can run roost also and if lo recoil is such a big deal then dont run lo, run ex belt. Hp fire is more then viable and kyurem b has amazing coverage... also how does mega slowbro even remotely wall kyurem b
 

starry blanket

骑虎难下
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
well if we wanna strictly compare suicune to cm rd manaphy, its not always in favor of manaphy.
There's actually one thing that people are forgetting. I mean suicune is quite a bit more bulky but a tad slower, but other than that.

There's this one weird turn manaphy has where it cannot either rain dance nor rest. I'm sure people who've used this set quite a bit will have realized this. In the top left corner, when it says "2 or 5 turns left," that is the last turn you can rest.
You may like to think that the last turn is when it says "1 or 4 turns left," but in reality, rain ends before hydration activates. Thus, your manaphy is just bait for two turns if you rest on the last turn of rain. It must wait that turn out, set up rain, and then rest in order to heal hp from that turn.
That's 3 turns of taking damage and not being able to heal it back. Sure, you get 3 turns of unlimited healing, but the point is, those 3 turns where u have to survive ultimately makes rd cm more erratic than restalk. Seems weird to say but i'd rather be able to reliably heal.

It definitely has competition as a water type, as a calm minder, and as a mon in general, but its still more consistent than cm rd manaphy, has a better typing than cm slowbro (and/or doesn't take a mega slot), and has pressure which means it can win 1v1 cm wars against things without psyshock or stored power. I personally would like it to stay where it is.
I was never "strictly comparing" Manaphy and Suicune, just plain comparing them...

Anyways, yes what you said about Rain Dance on Manaphy is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it MORE consistent than a Pokemon relying on Sleep Talk... that's quite debatable and I personally see no point in getting into that, so I wont. Also, one thing about Manaphy and Mega Slowbro's CM sets in comparison to Suicune's is that they aren't as predictable (for lack of better wording here). What I mean is that when your opponent sees a Manaphy, there's a good chance they won't know for sure its a CM set; they'll probably think it's a Tail Glow set, and with Mega Slowbro, there are a lot of variations of CM sets, you can bluff being standard Bro, etc. With Suicune, it's really just the one CroCune set; those other sets we rarely see are the ones that might catch your opponent off guard, and with the exception of some neat (but not too useful) support stuff, those OTHER sets are outclassed by other offensive water types in there tier for the most part. Nonetheless, I do agree with your points made about Pressure and about Manaphy's Rain Dance, but I still think Suicune should be B rank for the points I mentioned, and a few of the ones mentioned by a couple people before me.
 
You're three things that you said were kyurem b main problems.... rocks weakness is the only one that is in semi true.... scald burns happens to everyone and subs carry sub.... kyurem b can run roost also and if lo recoil is such a big deal then dont run lo, run ex belt. Hp fire is more then viable and kyurem b has amazing coverage
Sorry, but SketchUp said a lot more than that - you've cherry picked a line and completely ignored the other 5 or so. What's that about?
Could we also get some proper justification - literally all you said was "it hits stuff hard and can run more than one set". Well it's not the only mon which can run more than one set and no shit it hits stuff hard, that's why it's ranked in the first place and if that was really it, why wasn't it in A+ before? Why hasn't it always been in A+? Do it's merits actually realistically outweigh it's cons to A+ standard? How does it compare with the rest of A+? Exactly how favourable is the meta towards it? You've got seven top players and the rest of us to try and convince and I would have thought you've got to do a lot more than state why it's good in the first place. I mean there's a case for moving it up and you've got the start of one but two 20-word posts and selective amnesia is not it. Frankly it just looks like you're not taking this seriously.
I don't want to be a dick, but we were all thinking it. Forgive me.

Just so this isn't a completely pointless rant-post thing I can get behind Gastrodon to B. It's an amazing physical wall and personally I think it's on par with Tentacruel and Quagsire(and perhaps Zapdos but I don't use Zapdos much so I dunno). Despite lacking the utility of the former and the latter being better for set-up sweepers, Gastro's bulk and Typing makes up for it and it's not completely annihilated by all set up mon. I also think it's definitely superior to stuff like Chesnaught and Bronzong. It's no Hippowdon but it takes hits like an absolute champ and thanks to Scald (and a workable stat to back it up, all things considered, though I'm not saying high-ish special attack for a wall is a reason to move it up) can put in a lot of useful work. I haven't got any replays (it's not as if I ever rewatch them...) so I doubt anyone really cares what I think, but I've used it a lot and I can get behind this nom.

I've also used defensive Infernape a lot and to be honest I've come to rely on it a little. I tend to play semistall and having something that can easily counter Bisharp and Weavile, burn everything in sight, keep itself healthy and stallbreak all in one is something I find really useful. This is better than at least Chesnaught for sure. Again, no replays, sorry.
 
I was never "strictly comparing" Manaphy and Suicune, just plain comparing them...

Anyways, yes what you said about Rain Dance on Manaphy is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it MORE consistent than a Pokemon relying on Sleep Talk... that's quite debatable and I personally see no point in getting into that, so I wont. Also, one thing about Manaphy and Mega Slowbro's CM sets in comparison to Suicune's is that they aren't as predictable (for lack of better wording here). What I mean is that when your opponent sees a Manaphy, there's a good chance they won't know for sure its a CM set; they'll probably think it's a Tail Glow set, and with Mega Slowbro, there are a lot of variations of CM sets, you can bluff being standard Bro, etc. With Suicune, it's really just the one CroCune set; those other sets we rarely see are the ones that might catch your opponent off guard, and with the exception of some neat (but not too useful) support stuff, those OTHER sets are outclassed by other offensive water types in there tier for the most part. Nonetheless, I do agree with your points made about Pressure and about Manaphy's Rain Dance, but I still think Suicune should be B rank for the points I mentioned, and a few of the ones mentioned by a couple people before me.
I don't think it is fair to say that Suicune is outclassed in its other sets as an argument(even if it is)when you are using CM Manaphy which also is outclassed as a CM user by other mons as an example, you should compare the mons equally without being biased about particullarly one(not saying that CM Manaphy could not work,just saying it is outclassed as Suicune is when running other sets).

Now about Crobro the main thing is the resistances, Crobro has worse weaknesses by far than Suicune, at the top of my mind is Dark which with the even present Knock Off(more with Weavile and other Knock Off users on the rise) it can be difficult to bring it out.

I usually put a little more detail in my posts but I am busy rn,just wanted to share my opinion on the matter, will try to elaborate more on this later.
 
Sorry, but SketchUp said a lot more than that - you've cherry picked a line and completely ignored the other 5 or so. What's that about?
Could we also get some proper justification - literally all you said was "it hits stuff hard and can run more than one set". Well it's not the only mon which can run more than one set and no shit it hits stuff hard, that's why it's ranked in the first place and if that was really it, why wasn't it in A+ before? Why hasn't it always been in A+? Do it's merits actually realistically outweigh it's cons to A+ standard? How does it compare with the rest of A+? Exactly how favourable is the meta towards it? You've got seven top players and the rest of us to try and convince and I would have thought you've got to do a lot more than state why it's good in the first place. I mean there's a case for moving it up and you've got the start of one but two 20-word posts and selective amnesia is not it. Frankly it just looks like you're not taking this seriously.
I don't want to be a dick, but we were all thinking it. Forgive me.

Just so this isn't a completely pointless rant-post thing I can get behind Gastrodon to B. It's an amazing physical wall and personally I think it's on par with Tentacruel and Quagsire(and perhaps Zapdos but I don't use Zapdos much so I dunno). Despite lacking the utility of the former and the latter being better for set-up sweepers, Gastro's bulk and Typing makes up for it and it's not completely annihilated by all set up mon. I also think it's definitely superior to stuff like Chesnaught and Bronzong. It's no Hippowdon but it takes hits like an absolute champ and thanks to Scald (and a workable stat to back it up, all things considered, though I'm not saying high-ish special attack for a wall is a reason to move it up) can put in a lot of useful work. I haven't got any replays (it's not as if I ever rewatch them...) so I doubt anyone really cares what I think, but I've used it a lot and I can get behind this nom.

I've also used defensive Infernape a lot and to be honest I've come to rely on it a little. I tend to play semistall and having something that can easily counter Bisharp and Weavile, burn everything in sight, keep itself healthy and stallbreak all in one is something I find really useful. This is better than at least Chesnaught for sure. Again, no replays, sorry.
Was cut on time and didn't really have the time to make a actual nom, should have never made the post about cube


Anyway everything you said about gastro is true, and tbh its not that far from hippo bulk wise
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 179-212 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 136-161 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gastro is a win con against rain if u play it right, and as u said is just a plain work horse. Can switch in on aton of mons and firing off scalds and toxics is always nice
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Was cut on time and didn't really have the time to make a actual nom, should have never made the post about cube


Anyway everything you said about gastro is true, and tbh its not that far from hippo bulk wise
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 179-212 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 136-161 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gastro is a win con against rain if u play it right, and as u said is just a plain work horse. Can switch in on aton of mons and firing off scalds and toxics is always nice
That is very far from hippo in bulk lol

I think gastro is fine as is. I can't think of too many common situations in which I would use it over quag or hippo, as it offers much of the same utility that a bulky grass type could if not quag or hippo themselves
 
That is very far from hippo in bulk lol

I think gastro is fine as is. I can't think of too many common situations in which I would use it over quag or hippo, as it offers much of the same utility that a bulky grass type could if not quag or hippo themselves
Unlike Hippo gastro can wall water types if they dont have hp grass, so keldeo is hardwalled by it along with things like suicune etc, it can beat electric types as good as hippo WITH the added effects of walling water hypes
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Unlike Hippo gastro can wall water types if they dont have hp grass, so keldeo is hardwalled by it along with things like suicune etc, it can beat electric types as good as hippo WITH the added effects of walling water hypes
Hence the comment about bulky grass or dragon types. Both of these can generally wall keldeo as well. In fact, gastro loses to subcm keld, does it not? It doesn't love specs secret swords either.
 
Hence the comment about bulky grass or dragon types. Both of these can generally wall keldeo as well. In fact, gastro loses to subcm keld, does it not? It doesn't love specs secret swords either.
While Specs is a point, it does mean Keldeo can't mindlessly spam Scald as it enjoys doing, lest Gastrodon get a free entry to Recover, Spread Toxic, or use Yawn.

Also, SubCM Keldeo can't be answered with Gastrodon, but he can't use it for set-up either.

0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gastrodon can break Keldeo's subs, so Keldeo needs to have one up ahead of time, or Gastrodon can slap Toxic on him
 
I have been seeing quite a few people nomming Infernape for B rank, and I am loving it. Infernape has one of the largest competitive movepools in the game and is no slacker in the stats department either. Fire/Fighting is a decent offensive and defensive typing too. The biggest advantage of Infernape is the amount of sets it can run, from the Stealth Rock AntiLead, Mixed Scarf, Banded, SD Sweeper, NP Sweeper, Mixed LO Wallbreaker, Bulky Wall among others. Each of the different sets also has many options since Infernape has a plethora of options offensively, including Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, Mach Punch, Gunk Shot, ThunderPunch, Hidden Power, Stone Edge, Grass Knot and many more. Since it is such a versatile mon, it is able to fill many roles on a team, and does well in many different scenarios. I am even willing to go as far as saying it is worthy of B+, but I guess I will leave the discussion for later.

Moving on, I would also like to see Gastrodon go up to B. Gastrodon works as a great defensive pokemon, beating rain teams almost single handedly (immunity to water and electric). As well as being able to beat common threats such as Keldeo and Azu, it has a great defensive typing giving it only a weakness to Grass which is a relatively underrepresented type offensively, rarely being used outside of STABs. Its offensive capabilities aren't bad either being able to hit relatively hard with no investment with Earthquake/Scald. It also is a nice Status spreader and has access to reliable recovery. The main drawbacks to Gastro is that it doesn't obtain great defensive stats off the bat, so heavy investment is needed, however it still thrives in the current meta.

Suicune is the other mon currently up for discussion. I think that Suicune does deserve to move down. As a bulky water it receives high competition from many pokemon in the A Rank, including Manaphy, Slowbro etc. Even amongst its peers in B+, it sees competition with Slowking. It's lack of reliable recovery hurts it quite significantly as a defensive mon, often seeing Rest used on it. Suicune also excels at killing momentum because it normally lacks power or has to fish for Scald burns to be effective. While Suicune is definitely a threat when set up, it normally is hard to set up because of prominent physical threats like ZardX and M-Alt. As such, I think it deserves to move down to B.

TL;DR: Infernape to B- --> B/B+, Gastrodon B- --> B, Suicune B+ --> B
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I find gastrodn to be lacking in general, it's a medicire jack of all trades master of none. It's beaten easily by Fereothorn on rain and I doubt it takes a Draco meteor or an Earthquake particulary well. I also dont think you should rely on Gastrodon for a keldeo switch in, doing barely 30 isnt enough to beat Keldeo before it sets up calm minds, never mind the fact that you're forced to run earthquake, if not you're just setup fodder. Using gastrodon for a azumarill awitch in is aso a bad idea 2hkod by choice band and killed by belly drum. Its not very good at what it does, but it does a lot of things okay, which it should stay in B-, or C+
 
What are opinions on Terrakion right now?I Would like to get a general consensus because I feel like the majority of people are fine with where it is.
 
What are opinions on Terrakion right now?I Would like to get a general consensus because I feel like the majority of people are fine with where it is.
It's not all that great. Offensive sets face competition from Mega Lopunny and Mega Gallade. Even Keldeo who is an inherent mixed attacker with Secret Sword and has much better synergy with Bisharp. Talking about Bisharp, the Taunt + SR Terrakion set doesn't synergize too well with him as they share Ground and Fighting weaknesses. And you would like to use Bisharp to deter Defog if you're using a suicide lead Terrakion so it's just not ideal. There's also many commonly used mons that beat Terrakion, like Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Slowbro, defensive Starmie (who can also spin Rocks away), making him not as much of a threat as he appears at first sight. I believe he's fine in B+ rank.
 
Just clarifying the pros and cons on Infernape, and if it should move up or down or not.

Infernape:

Pros:
  • Extremely versatile. By versatile, I mean, like, 5 sets that work.
  • 127 is a really good speed tier, outspeeding Weavile, Torn-T and a bunch of other stuff.
  • Offensive stats are pretty average and mixed, nothing bad.
  • As mentioned, is the only (insert viable) fire type not weak to SR that has reliable recovery.
  • LO Wallbreaker 4 attacks is really good right now, because of surprise factor and aforementioned speed and reasonable offenses.
  • CB is my favourite set, because it's Iron Fist Mach Punch hits pretty hard, and also it can run Iron Fist Fire Punch so as to not take recoil. Here are some calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock+ it outspeeds, and Mach Punch does a decent 30%, killing a heavily weakened MMeta.
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard(X): 93-109 (31.3 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard(X): 229-271 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 109-130 (33.7 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock-Needless to say, CC OHKOes.
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Fire Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 228-268 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Cons:
  • Its Offenses are really average, and are nothing special, which means anything that is not weak to its STABs and has good bulk walls it.
  • Easily wore down.
  • It's bulk, while not bad, is not good by any means taking a lot more damage than expected.
  • Some of its sets are slightly outclassed.
All in all, it definitely should rise to B, and B+ is even a good place for it.
 

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Just clarifying the pros and cons on Infernape, and if it should move up or down or not.

Infernape:

Pros:
  • Extremely versatile. By versatile, I mean, like, 5 sets that work.
  • 127 is a really good speed tier, outspeeding Weavile, Torn-T and a bunch of other stuff.
  • Offensive stats are pretty average and mixed, nothing bad.
  • As mentioned, is the only (insert viable) fire type not weak to SR that has reliable recovery.
  • LO Wallbreaker 4 attacks is really good right now, because of surprise factor and aforementioned speed and reasonable offenses.
  • CB is my favourite set, because it's Iron Fist Mach Punch hits pretty hard, and also it can run Iron Fist Fire Punch so as to not take recoil. Here are some calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock+ it outspeeds, and Mach Punch does a decent 30%, killing a heavily weakened MMeta.
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard(X): 93-109 (31.3 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard(X): 229-271 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 109-130 (33.7 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock-Needless to say, CC OHKOes.
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Fire Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 228-268 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Cons:
  • Its Offenses are really average, and are nothing special, which means anything that is not weak to its STABs and has good bulk walls it.
  • Easily wore down.
  • It's bulk, while not bad, is not good by any means taking a lot more damage than expected.
  • Some of its sets are slightly outclassed.
All in all, it definitely should rise to B, and B+ is even a good place for it.
Not sure where you get 127 from, but Infernapes base Speed is 108. I'm pointing this out because you said in the calcs that you outspeed torn t and metagross, which isn't true unless you run a choice scarf.

Just so this post isn't useless I agree that it should raise to B because the defensive set alone is able to check a bunch of threats and the utility it provides is on par with other B ranked mons.
 
Just clarifying the pros and cons on Infernape, and if it should move up or down or not.

Infernape:

Pros:
  • Extremely versatile. By versatile, I mean, like, 5 sets that work.
  • 127 is a really good speed tier, outspeeding Weavile, Torn-T and a bunch of other stuff.
  • Offensive stats are pretty average and mixed, nothing bad.
  • As mentioned, is the only (insert viable) fire type not weak to SR that has reliable recovery.
  • LO Wallbreaker 4 attacks is really good right now, because of surprise factor and aforementioned speed and reasonable offenses.
  • CB is my favourite set, because it's Iron Fist Mach Punch hits pretty hard, and also it can run Iron Fist Fire Punch so as to not take recoil. Here are some calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock+ it outspeeds, and Mach Punch does a decent 30%, killing a heavily weakened MMeta.
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard(X): 93-109 (31.3 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard(X): 229-271 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 109-130 (33.7 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock-Needless to say, CC OHKOes.
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape Fire Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 228-268 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Cons:
  • Its Offenses are really average, and are nothing special, which means anything that is not weak to its STABs and has good bulk walls it.
  • Easily wore down.
  • It's bulk, while not bad, is not good by any means taking a lot more damage than expected.
  • Some of its sets are slightly outclassed.
All in all, it definitely should rise to B, and B+ is even a good place for it.
Infernape's base Speed is 108, tying with the Muskeeters and below the golden standard of 110

EDIT: Double ninja
 
@ the above

Where are you getting 127 speed at? Infernape is base 108. Still good, tying with the likes of Keldeo, but losing out on latis and other mons. Okay I guess a few people beat me to this lol


Also idk if Ape has only average offenses. Sure the base stats are but almost every move you use is gonna be 120 unless it's Mach Punch or Grass Knot or something. Also something that I feel is quite good with Infernape is Gunk Shot allowing it to deal with certain fairies that some other fighting types struggle with. Grass Knot is also good too in this Hippo ridden meta (I'm talking about the life orb set now btw).

I also don't like the notion of using Fire Punch. Even with Iron Fist, Flare Blitz is considerably stronger.
 
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