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¿Cloning is hacking?
- Thread starter sniDer
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And for SRers, since you can only get each legendary pokemon once per game, you would need to restart the games lots of times (if you don't cheat with AR to rebattle), in order to get more if you don't clone....
Which is REALLY time consuming.
Well I have an Action Replay. I would personally rather bred a few Poke'mon on my own and trade for other competitive ones. I really don't have the time of day to breed every single competitive Poke'mon i want, let's get real now. It also allows you to test out different teams quicker. I would feel like i wasted time if i bred a whole team that doesn't work out the way I want it too. Maybe that's just me.
I don't think cloning or hacking is "bad". I don't think people who do this are bad people. I do both myself. I also happen to breed and raise lots of pokemon. I do this because I like it. I don't really care if other people think of it as activity for those that don't "have a life". I'm also fine if people want to take shortcuts to getting viable competitive pokemon. To each their own...
What I don't like is all the preachy pricks that act like cloning is somehow "noble", and for the greater good of the game. As if they are one of the annointed caretakers of the great legacy of pokemon, which requires them to exploit glitches in the game code in order to get to the real essence of pokemon, which is of course, battling only (sarcasm totally intended). In the ultimate example of deluded rationalization, some have speculated that game designers might have intentionally included the glitch to allow people to clone. I think that is complete bullshit.
Clone if you want to. I don't think it's bad or good. It's simply a way to get what you want. Go for it. But, don't act like you are playing by the intended spirit of the game of Pokemon. You're not. You are going around one aspect of the game (the part you find boring) to more easily get to another part of the game (the part you find interesting -- competitive battling). And that's fine with me.
But please spare me the pretentious, arbitrary morality of "cloning is good, hacking is bad". If all you care about is battle, why do you give a shit how the pokemon came to be? If they don't have illegal stats, moves, etc. -- then it's a fair battle, which is all you care about. If you are interested in the other aspects of pokemon, the boring non-strategic parts, then you shouldn't clone or hack -- just play the fucking game. And stop acting like one form of "shortcut" is good and one is bad.
What I don't like is all the preachy pricks that act like cloning is somehow "noble", and for the greater good of the game. As if they are one of the annointed caretakers of the great legacy of pokemon, which requires them to exploit glitches in the game code in order to get to the real essence of pokemon, which is of course, battling only (sarcasm totally intended). In the ultimate example of deluded rationalization, some have speculated that game designers might have intentionally included the glitch to allow people to clone. I think that is complete bullshit.
Clone if you want to. I don't think it's bad or good. It's simply a way to get what you want. Go for it. But, don't act like you are playing by the intended spirit of the game of Pokemon. You're not. You are going around one aspect of the game (the part you find boring) to more easily get to another part of the game (the part you find interesting -- competitive battling). And that's fine with me.
But please spare me the pretentious, arbitrary morality of "cloning is good, hacking is bad". If all you care about is battle, why do you give a shit how the pokemon came to be? If they don't have illegal stats, moves, etc. -- then it's a fair battle, which is all you care about. If you are interested in the other aspects of pokemon, the boring non-strategic parts, then you shouldn't clone or hack -- just play the fucking game. And stop acting like one form of "shortcut" is good and one is bad.
You can only say that for you Jibaku-san. No one's entitled to say what's the "utmost fun" for other people.
Heck the whole process of breeding is just flat out boring to me. So hacking is definitely more fun than cloning for me.
For Doug, if he is really bothered by cloning, then obviously the cloning doesn't make it fun for him.
But I think the wisest thing here is probably the "live and let live" attitude. That's why we have a bunch of different kinds of folks around here, and why breeders are often willing to battle hackers as long as they don't go outside the "limits" a pokemon can have.
I guess the real question is what should be allowed in tournies. Obviously, it seems fair that hacks should stay out of official competition, but what about clones? I guess that's kind of a gray area.
Jibaku has a point, you're gonna get nowhere unless you clone. If I was in charge of a tourney I'd let clones of non-hacked pokemon in. Why? Because someone worked hard to make the original pokemon, and even if they have multiple copies of it, they're only using one in the tournament anyway.
As for "cloning is cheating", think about this for a sec.. A guy who innocently bought DP and is putting a pokemon on the GTS can accidently turn it off at the exact time needed to clone, he doesn't know he cheated, he just found a glitch, on accident. But no one can go to the store and buy an AR and use it to hack without knowing that they're cheating.
Without clones, there wouldn't even be a trade board.no one would take the time to IV breed or EV train because they'd be making next to nothing off of it, and no one would have a fully trained ingame team built up. Competitive battling on wifi wouldn't exist, or if it did it would be a lot less developed than it is now.
I agree you theoretically could accidentally clone a pokemon. My 8 yr old son somehow came up with a poisoned bad egg in his Pearl game. I don't know how it happened. But, I know for a fact that he has never accessed an AR, GTS, or anything else other than normal in-game play. If I saw a bad egg in someone else's game, I would normally assume they made a bad hack. But, the appearance of cheating, doesn't always guarantee cheating.
By the way, I have no problem with cloning. I do it myself. But, I have no lofty illusions about what I'm doing. I'm avoiding the intended mechanics of the game.
No offense, but this is a horrible example. Let's take Emerald for instance. The Battle Frontier glitch can be accurately described as a watered-down version of AR cloning, but still entirely capable of mass cloning. Are you saying that was not included in the game? There was no external device necessary for that. And there is a glitch that allows for perfect pokemon in-game: it's called luck.
Which brings me to my point of why cloning can be justified. Say that you happen to breed an entirely flawless Gible with legit parents. I'm not sure of the exact chances, but the probability of this happening is extremely low. Catching shinies is more probable. Who in their right mind would honestly say, "Okay, that's one Gible for my thread. Let's start working on number two?" That wouldn't be ethical. That would be stupid.
Finally, of all the people saying cloning is hacking, how many have successful trade threads?
Agreed. Cloning is just a loophole in the Pokemon Market that capitalists use to maximize their product's profit.
Cloning is kinda like, you have two cows, you sell one to buy a bull. Being able to mass produce calves, you can trade these calves away for other species like birds or chickens and such.
Whereas hacking is just, buying perfect calves (buying an AR) and trade them away.
I understand your point Cooper, my only problem is people that clone who thinks that hacking is the worst thing since Hitler, because, in a way or another, they're doing something that normaly you couldn't. I'm not saying that clonning=hacking, I'm just saying that the fact that is in-game doesn't mean that is "extra value". Clonning gives you an advantage, just like hacking, over people that doesn't know how to do the same, in a way, hacking gives you and advantage that people who doesn't have an AR cannot access.
Of course I'm not against clonners or hackers (legit hackers: wonder guard spiritomb is dumb, unless it's for fun); I'm just against people who think that hacking=evil and clone, because in a way is the same thing: getting advantage that normaly you wouln't have...
Of course I'm not against clonners or hackers (legit hackers: wonder guard spiritomb is dumb, unless it's for fun); I'm just against people who think that hacking=evil and clone, because in a way is the same thing: getting advantage that normaly you wouln't have...
See this is the sentiment that I don't understand. Hacking and cloning aren't comparable at all. I don't have to go out to gamestop so I can buy something that lets me clone my pokemon (lol don't say anything about having to buy wireless internet). How would I normally not have this advantage? Because the game programmers didn't "mean" to leave cloning in? Who's to argue what should and should't be in the game? I think Double Team is the most retarded move this side of Minimize, but it's in the game and I deal with it.
I see three sides to this argument (and by hacking I mean using outside devices). The nicknames are for humor sake.
1.)Purists-don't like hacking or cloning
2.)Cloners-don't like hacking
3.)Liberals-don't mind either
I think that side 2 defitnetly has the most support on this site. And since I consider this site to have the most intelligent and thoughtful insight in regards to competitive pogeymaninng; I conclude that this sight contains the most insight in regards to this discussion. Therefore, Cloners will reign supreme!!
I hate to break it to you, but this has nothing to do with an irrational majority vote.
If we want to bring 'Smogon says' into this, a conclusion much different from yours is going to be made. Hacked pokemon that are within normal specifications are as legit as anything else, because possibility is the name of the game. You don't have to soft reset for a max IV Bold Suicune and clone it for it to be usable in the competitive metagame - if it possibly exists, it exists.
But hey, feel free to start a separate metagame where you make sure everyone is using original or cloned pokemon, with moves only obtained through breeding or cloned TMs, levelled normally or with cloned rare candies and not hacked ones, and so on, and so on.
The latter half of my post was a slight jab at issues that involove morality ie, no one ever wins in regards to what is or isn't moral. I knew I should've put some /sarcasm tags at the end.
How I feel is summed up in my first post
Well, as you said so... Then I'm gonna use my almost legit perfect IV poke for competitive battle, there are a lot of people that do it "is the way the game is played and its not gonna easily change by any means"...
Cloned pókes have advantage against non clonned, in first place they shouldn't be there battling...
cloning is purely for economical purposes, not gaining the competitive edge. i think the tc is trying to say that cloning gives unfair advantage when it comes to competitive battling. clones are replicas of the original bred pokemon, and therefore, it's legitimacy is confirmed by the fact that you bred that thing. hacking in its purest form is cheating. cloning is just a way to make the non-battling aspect of the game more diverse, by allowing people to share their stuff w/o losing them in the first place. it's not like we are replicating the Mona Lisa or some famous painting here.
It means that by the rules of the game nobody can have two exact pokes. It really gives advantage to the clonner because they can trade copies and try differente movesets, etc... It doesn't matter if a glitch in the game allows you to do that: you're not supposed to do it. By example, if a glitch in the game allows you to breed perfect IV pokes you'll argue that "it's in the game", and that "its not like you would breed something for a week?"
Quoted for the fucking truth.
Hacking for perfect IVs via AR unbalances the competitive playing field unless you truly believe every Pokemon player who wishes to battle competitively should have access to an AR or a similar device.
Economically speaking, it encourages trading moreso since 1) not everyone can just AR their desired Pokemon and 2) the person who spent the effort to breed a wonderful Pokemon can spread the wealth around the community by trading the duplicates. As someone stated earlier, it's a happy medium between "AR everything, omg competitive battling, 31 IVs!11!!" and "Playing the game the right way, every Pokemon should be unique, glitches aren't intended so they aren't legal" philosophies.
In the end, it's entirely subjective where the line is drawn for "cheating" and "legit" tactics. But IMO, allowing things that are possible within the game is a very logical separation point.
Ok, I'm going to say something maybe a little controversial:
Competitive battling should be all about tactics.
Breeding should be something appart.
If you want to spent countless hours breeding some awesome poke, that's ok for me, as long as you don't talk bullshit about the people (like me) that doesn't have 15 years old and all the time in the world for doing it, but still want to competitive battle and have good skills in the game. Tournaments then should be all with perfect IV pokes, since the skill is what matters, not if you can clone your Garchomp a million times for TM's and other OUs...
Then, if you like breeding, why not make a breeding thread like some people I've seen in the forum? Show to other people how much time you're willing to spent for that awesome 31/31/x/31/31 DITTO...
My only concern is that the people who clone think that hackers=evil because they do in minutes the same thing that they do in a week, when they are doing just the same: the skip the hardwork of breeding a second poke for trading or TM's and so on...
Competitive battling should be all about tactics.
Breeding should be something appart.
If you want to spent countless hours breeding some awesome poke, that's ok for me, as long as you don't talk bullshit about the people (like me) that doesn't have 15 years old and all the time in the world for doing it, but still want to competitive battle and have good skills in the game. Tournaments then should be all with perfect IV pokes, since the skill is what matters, not if you can clone your Garchomp a million times for TM's and other OUs...
Then, if you like breeding, why not make a breeding thread like some people I've seen in the forum? Show to other people how much time you're willing to spent for that awesome 31/31/x/31/31 DITTO...
My only concern is that the people who clone think that hackers=evil because they do in minutes the same thing that they do in a week, when they are doing just the same: the skip the hardwork of breeding a second poke for trading or TM's and so on...
And when Competitor comes out, you can have your cake and eat it too. Perfect IVs, total customization, and most importantly a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.
I'm sure most people don't care at all what you do in your spare time as long as it doesn't affect them. Cross dressing, smoking pot, hacking with an AR, you name it. The problem appears when people who can easily attain perfect IVs battle people who have to work hard to get them (if they get them at all) and have an immediate advantage regardless of other factors.
I currently do not own D/P, but plan on obtaining a copy by the end of the year. I have already made up my mind that I would rather spend time breeding for my own good IV'd pokes that trade for someone else's. However, I have no problems providing mine for those that don't find any real joy in breeding. I'll probably wind up asking for items (TMs, Choice items, Life Orb, ect.) in exchange, or Pokemon I can't get on my game, untrained/unbred. I see no problem with cloning, as stated earlier: Everyone (with a little time on their hands) can get an (almost) exact copy of anyone else's Pokemon within the normal limits of the game. Cloning just saves them a little time they would rather spend on other aspects of the game. Besides, to get ANY good cloned Pokemon, you've normally got to have something just as good to trade. True, you may only have to breed one good Pokemon to get a full team of good Pokemon, but you still have to do some work, unlike hacking which allows PERFECT stats. Not 31/22/24/16/31/31, but 31/31/31/31/31/31. Alright, I'm done ranting. Lemme know what you think of my views.
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