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I think Haxorus should go down to B rank. Thanks to Salamence and Tyrantrum giving it stiff competition, Haxorus is getting less and less viable. Dragon Dance sets are for the most part outclassed by Salamence and Tyrantrum, and Scarf sets are also outclassed as well. It does have a niche with Swords Dance/ Choice Band as a wallbreaker/stallbreaker thanks to it's monstorous 147 base attack. Ut also has a decent 97 speed and Mold Breaker isbcool for breaking through Filter and Solid Rock, but it faces so much competition from Salamence and Tyrantrum that it's niche doesn't warrant B+ rank.
Ladies and gentlemen, the day of reckoning is upon us. Trevenant has moved from UU to RU at last. Let's unrank it to celebrate! Seriously, though, it has no real niche in this tier, and though it saddens me to see the D-rank so empty, it's only logical to banish it from the thread entirely.
Regarding Haxorus, I think it was discussed a few times in the last incarnation of this thread, where we agreed to keep it B+ because of its incredible strength as a stallbreaker. It still has a recognizable niche thanks to its enormous attack, access to Mold Breaker, and ability to break Fairies more easily than other Dragon-types (besides Dragalge I guess) thanks to Poison Jab. Keep Haxorus B.
Oh and btw, Haxorus could probably drop to B. Admittedly it has enormous competition from Salamence and Tyrantrym, is not that fast, and with meh bulk it has trouble getting it going. It's a good stallbreaker, and with Mold Breaker and CB/SD and good coverage, it can stomp on stall teams fairly well. But it's not that great against offense and competes with Mence and Tyrant so B isn't reasonable.
So UU has finally gotten rid of the last of its garbage? Outstanding. I noticed a distinct lack of Trevenant (only one! which just got OHKO'd and never actually did anything) as I made my first 10 games on the suspect ladder last night, and was hopeful that was a sign that lower ladder had finally caught on to the fact that this thing is trash. Better luck in RU, Trev, just watch out for those knock offs.
Interestingly, we took Cobalion and Reuniclus from RU. These are long overdue in my view; they've got diverse sets and can fill different roles very effectively on different teams. They're well worthy of their A ranking, and it's good to see them finally getting their deserved usage.
So UU has finally gotten rid of the last of its garbage? Outstanding. I noticed a distinct lack of Trevenant (only one! which just got OHKO'd and never actually did anything) as I made my first 10 games on the suspect ladder last night, and was hopeful that was a sign that lower ladder had finally caught on to the fact that this thing is trash. Better luck in RU, Trev, just watch out for those knock offs.
Interestingly, we took Cobalion and Reuniclus from RU. These are long overdue in my view; they've got diverse sets and can fill different roles very effectively on different teams. They're well worthy of their A ranking, and it's good to see them finally getting their deserved usage.
Milotic can somewhat annoying to teams that can't dispatch bulky waters quickly, so I wouldn't call it outright garbage. And Scald Spam hates the world.
Milotic is a perfectly functional, if outclassed, bulky water. It probably should fall to RU, but it's not comparable to Trevenant. Trev is a pokemon which literally fails to do its job in the UU meta, which is why it needed to fall.
Milotic can somewhat annoying to teams that can't dispatch bulky waters quickly, so I wouldn't call it outright garbage. And Scald Spam hates the world.
Slowking & Suicune are for scrubs i think obv yy
Haze is such an important niche ( That was the reasoning to make it C sorta, even when King has DTail )
I mean, Milo's not bad, but outclassed. That's kind of like, the Ambipom of RU. Ambipom in itself is like, not good but usable maybe i guess? But for tutoring & beginners's sake ( and avoid any kind of discussion about it ), it is E, same should go for Milo.
I don't think Milo is garbage. people just use suicune. same issues for darmanitan, people are using entei. Milotic has instantly recover. phasing abilities, and access to haze with a pretty decent amount of bulk leaving as a pretty annoying/hard to kill poke at times.
I think that the fact that being a scald switchin that when it gets burned It actually functions better is kinda cool. It has instant recovery so it doesn't have to rely on rest (even tho that set seems pretty good as marvel scale works with sleep) its a bit outclasses yes but it has a nice niche as status absorber, bulky water, and having access to some fun shit like mirror coat, and haze.
Welcome to UU Coba and Clus n_n glad we took Cobalion before he gets banned lol
Now about some topics that were discussed:
Keep Snorlax A rank: I stick with Christo in this one. I love how Snorlax is useful and easy to play with. CurseLax is an amazing set, and I'm happy to see it getting more love. I just think that A is a nice place for it, although I could see it reaching A+ rank any time soon.
Slowking to A-: Unfortunatelly I can see that happening. While Alakazam rise to OU could benefit Slowking usage as a Psychic type, rn he lost some viability thanks to others psychics types in UU tier, such as Azelf as a replacement for Zam, and bulky CM Reuniclus, who have an arguably better coverage and Magic Guard, fearing no residual damage.
Tangrowth to B: Certainly better than others B- rank mons. It have a great moveset that makes it a versatile mon that can play offensive or utilities roles. Fully support.
Machamp to A: This one is a cool nom. I played with Machamp a bit a few weeks ago, using his AV set, and it's such an incredible mon. I often used it as lead, specially when I see the likes of Rotom forms or Hydreigon, and it's simply annoying. Your opponent is absolutely sure about what is coming on (most of the time a D-Punch) and yet it can't do nothing than praying for hax not to come. Dynamic Punch/Knock Off/Stone Edge/Heavy Slam is all you need to have a good trip over the ladder. Heavy Slam btw is one of the best ways to lure and kill Florges, specially against those teams that rely on her as their fighting type check. Machamp for A rank.
Haxorus drop to B rank: as a Dragon type, it suffers too much competition from, like, any other Dragon type in UU. As a stallbreaker, it also suffer competition from others great stallbreakers in UU, since they often have better power from the go, can also setup an SD or DD, and do not rely in Outrage to break stuff. It still have a niche with Mold Breaker EQ and PJab for Fairies (although DD fails to kill Florges after +1 and Whim, ik, just encore it), but I think B rank will be fine.
also bye trevenant good luck in RU
i dont even know how u made it so far in uu lol noivern dropped before u what a shame
I'm just gonna call some attention back to Delphox. I know it's not quite the nuke that Chandelure is, and not fastest (though it's still pretty damn quick with 104 base hitting 337 with boosting nature), but I've been playing with it on the suspect ladder and it can provide great pressure to teams in need of that, can neuter slower special attacks with Mystical Fire, and the cm/lo set is nothing short of powerful.
I know it has a lot of issues, and defensively it's not the best in typing or stats. But it can decently pick and choose what it wants to hit, providing near-perfect neutral coverage with two stabs + grass knot. The mind games you can play with it are pretty fun too, since Magician is a bit of an odd ability. With Switcheroo, it can out speed and steal some things choice items or other stuff, and then proceed to fuck over a wall with said item.
Is it outclassed? Yes, but differently by different things. Weak to one of the most common priorities doesn't help anybody, nor does being barely capable of setting up with any offensive pressure.
I also feel people are forgetting that for a very offensive pokemon, it also has a decent support movepool. Trick room, Light Screen, Magic Room, Switcheroo, Wisp, even stuff like Safeguard to make sure status doesn't bother you.
Overall, Delphox comes off as a very underrated mon to me, though it gets outclassed in various roles. There are better fire types, and better psychic types too, but it's not undeserving of a rank by any means.
Eyyy we finally have Cobalion and Reuniclus (RIP RU, again)!
That said, I think we're forgetting a very important aspect to Milotic: Competitive. Milotic can deter Intimidate spam (meaning a predicted switch into Krookodile or Salamence gives you a free +2), Defog, and other stat lowering moves. It also has a usable base 100 Special Attack and 81 Speed (with albeit crappy coverage) to capitalise on this. While it is outclassed in the role of bulky Water type, Competitive gives it a perfectly viable niche on hazard stack teams and teams that don't like Intimidate. It is a small niche (I agree it should remain C Rank, although this may change), but it is definitely something, albeit arguably the one thing that keeps it from complete mediocrity. I'll update with Replays where I attempt to make use of Competitive Milotic.
After trying to make Spike stack + Milotic work, I agree with YABO that Milotic is garbage and I am garbage.
Offensive milotic is 1000% outclassed by offensive suicuine and shouldn't be a reason to use it. That being said defensive miloti is honestly better than vaporeon aside from the scald immunity but instant recovery and hard walling entei is a big selling point
Offensive milotic is 1000% outclassed by offensive suicuine and shouldn't be a reason to use it. That being said defensive miloti is honestly better than vaporeon aside from the scald immunity but instant recovery and hard walling entei is a big selling point
You're probably right. That's something I didn't consider. Better bulk, better coverage (seriously all Milo has is Water STAB, Ice Beam, Dragon Pulse, and Hidden Power), better speed, and access to Tailwind and Calm Mind are all things offensive Cune has over Milo. That said, my post was entirely theorymon-ing, and your opinion's probably more educated than mine, but I like to give mons the benefit of the doubt (I mean, Competitive + hazard stack is pretty dope on paper, right?).
Offensive milotic is 1000% outclassed by offensive suicuine and shouldn't be a reason to use it. That being said defensive miloti is honestly better than vaporeon aside from the scald immunity but instant recovery and hard walling entei is a big selling point
If you use it as a defog deterrent you do not have to waste turns setting up as you are a threat right away, that would probably be the best benefit of using it over offensive cune also again the added instant recovery to do it again if you need to. I still think milotic should remain C rank as its not fantastic but the niche is totally there. Might make a team with this soon.
The vast majority of you guys agree on Chesnaught moving down to B+ rank. I am one of few that oppose the move and these are my arguments before it is decided. This is chesnaught's last stand!
Base Stats - Total: 530 88 107 122 74 75 64
Chesnaught has some great stats for a defensve wall as most of you know. It's typing is a bit situational in the meta on what it can check and counter. Fighting is a great defensive typing though coupled with grass does more harm then good. Although in our current ferg meta, chesnaught can be found very useful! It has a great ability and a fantastic support move pool. It is far from a 4MMS pokemon. Spikes, Spikey Shield, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Drain Punch, Hammer arm, Wood Hammer, Roar, Taunt, Sword Dance and even BellyDrum are all viable options.
Chesnaught is not set up bait! It has roar, taunt, and set up moves of its own.
Chesnaught can beat stall with sub bellydrum, sword dance since most of defensive mons on stall are Salamence and Alalmola which can be beat by stone edge and sub. You can adjust evs to outspeed Sally. Its not a bad option on balance or bulky offensce but it does tend to rely on the surprise sub.
Chesnaught can beat standard SD ferg and beats DD ferg on the switch. Of coarse this relys on multiple factors but it is interesting to see that Chesnaught lives an ice punch and lives recoil from wood hammer. It's survivability is low after but ches can synthesis on a slower mon potentially. Here is me and xShiba testing it! http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-245218021
The tier is limited on good spike setters. Chesnaught makes it easy being able to wall a multitude of mons and forcing switches with leech seed. Spikes are very helpful. They should not be overlooked especially on something so bulky. Toxic is also a great option on ches as steel types generally don't want to take a stab fighting move.
Specially defensive is not bad. It walls mega amphy along with sceptile and helioisk. It still walls defensive threats fairly well wjile being able to live death blows from special threats.
Chesnaught's decently high attack stat can keep itself healthy and from being easy to switch into. If you look at some of the best walls in the tier, you will find that most of them have over 100 base attack stat. Salamence, florges, porygon2, snorlax, slowking, aggron and rotom-h all have 100 base attack and over.
Lets compare to some other A- mons...
Mega Aggron shares the same concept as Chesnaught. Aggron walls a few more things as ches provides more utility than aggron. Both have flaws. Both have great potential as a wall. Chesnaught shines better in beating stall. I would say they are of similar attributes
B+ mon comparison...
Qwilfish is another spike layer. Qwilfish has the better ability but worse stats. Chesnaught can go special def and qwil can't take a special hit. Both have taunt. Qwil has no good recovery while chesnaught has leech and synthesis which makes its survivability as a wall exceed that of qwil. Qwil forces less switches. I see chesnaught as a better spike layer in the long run. Qwil works better on offensive play-style while ches is better on bulky offence, stall, and sometimes balance.
Gligar is set up bait and is prone to knock off while ches can take knock offs and has roar.
Below are a multitude of underrated sets that can be effective!
I'd have to agree with both keeping Snorlax in A and dropping Slowking to A-. While Snorlax is still an excellent sweeper and special wall, there's a ton of popular stuff that holds it back from being one of the most threatening things in the metagame. Things like Doublade, Cobalion, Heracross, CM Roar Suicune, Focus Blast Reuniclus, and even stuff like Taunt Mandibuzz/Jellicent/Qwilfish all give Snorlax a hard time. In addition, when using it I've found it's often forced to Rest often which really puts pressure on the team as a sleeping Snorlax is more than likely a free switch to a dangerous Fighting type or even to stuff like Gatr. For Slowking, again, the popularity of Hydreigon, Feraligatr, Krookodile, Roar Suicune, Mega Beedrill (and tons more) really hold it back, and even the stuff that it's supposed to check are not kind to it - Entei will probably burn it, Mienshao and Crobat can U-turn on it, Mega Swampert comes dangerously close to 2HKOing from full, and it can't really check Salamence without Ice Beam, which it'll have to give up CM for. Colbur is a cool tech on it though :}
For Haxorus, I actually disagree with it dropping. One really cool thing about Haxorus is that it has insane power even without a boosting item, so it can afford to run cool stuff like Roseli/Haban Berry or Mental Herb which is hilarious when people's normal way of checking DDers is with Whimsicott. Also yeah, CB is insane, though locking yourself into Outrage can hurt against stuff like Cobalion, and it has prediction issues that Tyrantrum doesn't have too much of. However, it is able to outspeed a ton of stuff that Tyrantrum isn't, like Krookodile, Heracross, and Gatr. Yeah overall I think that B+ accurately represents Haxorus's position in the tier, where it does face competition from stuff, but it has enough going to be plenty viable on its own.
Ok so while we are talking about those that Omfuga brought up, Imma bring to the table a new nomination (and please don't shoot me) but here it goes...
Mega Camel C ----> B- / B
Now hear me out, while I understand we have better Megas I truly feel like this Mega should move up for a few reasons. The biggest one is the fact that this this has little switchins with the right moves. With its STABs, it can hit a ton of things very hard...
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 249-294 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 56+ SpD Vaporeon: 204-240 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 152-179 (46.7 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 144-171 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 202-238 (60.6 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 220-261 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 324-384 (87 - 103.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 265-313 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 192-226 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 186-220 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Mandibuzz: 217-256 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 131-154 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 210-247 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 159-187 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 159-187 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
And while this thing needs help finding switch-ins, once it is in, something is taking quite a bit of damage. Sadly, its STABs are walled by Dragon / Flying types, which is where Hidden Power Ice comes in...
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 376-444 (113.5 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 167-197 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (For comparison so HP Ice may not be needed but is still great coverage)
252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 376-444 (120.9 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 166-196 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Again comparison calc)
Now while its main STAB can 2HKO them, it's main STAB also has only 8 PP and as such can be PP stalled fairly easily.
Now while it looks to be the most epic of wallbreakers, it is sadly 4x weak to the most common type in UU: Water. It also has a common weakness in Ground meaning that it can only switch in a few times or needs "free switches". It also has one of the worse Speed stats in Pokemon history sitting at an abysmal 20 meaning it must always take a hit first before it can hit back like a truck.
Overall, I feel it fits in B- or B and is too good to be stuck in C.
I'd like to bring attention back to this; I wholeheartedly agree with Camerupt to B. It's actually insanely hard to deal with in practice when it can easily tank hits from pretty much any neutral attack (hell, even Krookodile's EQ is a roll) and when it does ridiculous amounts of damage with its STABs alone. Looking at the stuff in A rank, there's a ton of stuff that it's capable of forcing out, and it has a nice set of resistances. If you wanna give it a try, go for Fire Blast/Earth Power/Ancientpower or HP Ice/SR or Toxic or Wisp. Whimsicott's a pretty cool partner :)
Okay, thanks for contributing guys! Some changes will be made soon, depending on how lazy I am (by the end of today at worst). I'm gonna read over everything and make some new suggestions for conversation, of course.
On camerupt, I thought I'd quote my post in the Viability convo from a few months back:
Camerupt: C to B-: I've been using plain vanilla Stealth rock offensive set. It's really nice... hits like a fucking truck and its bulk is great. Almost see it as stealth rock mega swampert with a few negatives and some nice niches over pert-- mostly hitting like a monster
So yeah, I've been in support of Camerupt rising for a while, but there have been more "important" or "relevant" mons to deal with, so I kind of put it on hold. I'm glad it's seeing some UU usage and discussion, though!
I'd have to agree with both keeping Snorlax in A and dropping Slowking to A-. While Snorlax is still an excellent sweeper and special wall, there's a ton of popular stuff that holds it back from being one of the most threatening things in the metagame. Things like Doublade, Cobalion, Heracross, CM Roar Suicune, Focus Blast Reuniclus, and even stuff like Taunt Mandibuzz/Jellicent/Qwilfish all give Snorlax a hard time. In addition, when using it I've found it's often forced to Rest often which really puts pressure on the team as a sleeping Snorlax is more than likely a free switch to a dangerous Fighting type or even to stuff like Gatr. For Slowking, again, the popularity of Hydreigon, Feraligatr, Krookodile, Roar Suicune, Mega Beedrill (and tons more) really hold it back, and even the stuff that it's supposed to check are not kind to it - Entei will probably burn it, Mienshao and Crobat can U-turn on it, Mega Swampert comes dangerously close to 2HKOing from full, and it can't really check Salamence without Ice Beam, which it'll have to give up CM for. Colbur is a cool tech on it though :}
For Haxorus, I actually disagree with it dropping. One really cool thing about Haxorus is that it has insane power even without a boosting item, so it can afford to run cool stuff like Roseli/Haban Berry or Mental Herb which is hilarious when people's normal way of checking DDers is with Whimsicott. Also yeah, CB is insane, though locking yourself into Outrage can hurt against stuff like Cobalion, and it has prediction issues that Tyrantrum doesn't have too much of. However, it is able to outspeed a ton of stuff that Tyrantrum isn't, like Krookodile, Heracross, and Gatr. Yeah overall I think that B+ accurately represents Haxorus's position in the tier, where it does face competition from stuff, but it has enough going to be plenty viable on its own.
I'd like to bring attention back to this; I wholeheartedly agree with Camerupt to B. It's actually insanely hard to deal with in practice when it can easily tank hits from pretty much any neutral attack (hell, even Krookodile's EQ is a roll) and when it does ridiculous amounts of damage with its STABs alone. Looking at the stuff in A rank, there's a ton of stuff that it's capable of forcing out, and it has a nice set of resistances. If you wanna give it a try, go for Fire Blast/Earth Power/Ancientpower or HP Ice/SR or Toxic or Wisp. Whimsicott's a pretty cool partner :)
Can u provide more replays if u have any? I can see how it could be decent in theory but the only single camerupt replay ive seen in the one in your quote which spends 2 turns in the game, 1 as death fodder
