Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

[thesecondbest]

Huge power hyperspace fury hoopa might be the only way to beat imposter chansey, but that loses to fur coat on anything besides chansey (say Mega Ray for example). So can we suspect imposter?
Or bring poison heal and lose to worry seed or simple beam losers

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

You can play it via BH if you want to play on the main server. Just bring three Pokemon, pick one, and pretend it's a 1v1 match.

Well, not really, because Pure/Huge Power, Parental Bond, and a few other moves/abilities are banned in BH but not BH 1v1 (yet).

Huge power hyperspace fury hoopa might be the only way to beat imposter chansey, but that loses to fur coat on anything besides chansey (say Mega Ray for example). So can we suspect imposter?
Or bring poison heal and lose to worry seed or simple beam losers

I don't think Imposter is broken. It is slightly better than in regular BH, but things can still pretty easily wall themselves via Judgment or other techniques (I'm working on a set that I'll post about eventually that does a good job of dealing with Imposter). Also, like in regular 1v1, there are mind games relating to choosing your Pokemon. For example, in regular 1v1, my team may have only one counter to Charizard X. If my opponent has a Charizard, I have to predict if he or she is going to use it, and choose or not choose my counter for it based on that. If you just run one or two pokes that are Imposter resistant in the meta, then you can rely on the matchup and decide if it's worth it or not to choose them.

 

[Funbot28]

Will P-DOn and P-Ogre be eventually banned since they are banned in regular BH?

Edit: Just played some games and omg it is soooo fun :) Would really like to see this have it's own ladder, although Sturdinja needs a looking into...

 

[The Immortal]

Well, not really, because Pure/Huge Power, Parental Bond, and a few other moves/abilities are banned in BH but not BH 1v1 (yet).

Custom Game then if you're using banned stuff... or you know, just put BH 1v1 on your server.

Will P-DOn and P-Ogre be eventually banned since they are banned in regular BH?

I don't want to ban stuff just because they're banned on BH. We'll see if they deserve to be banned here.

 

[xfix]

I spoke to xfix on showdown about this a little bit, but basically hoopa-u means that perish song is completely nerfed (touched on a bit above by lyse) and potentially is no longer needed to be suspected imo.

The 2 most common perish song mons are melo and azu. Hyperspace Fury obviously wrecks melo, making that a nonissue. Gunk shot also wrecks azu, with a guaranteed OHKO. There's 2 opportunities to hit azu as well, so while its only an 80% accuracy move, missing twice is a 1/25 chance iirc making it almost irrelevant.

Uh, I only said that Hoopa-Unbound deals with Perish Song. Perish Song counters are pretty much always hyper offensive, and Hoopa-Unbound is no exception here. For what I know, stuff like Mega Mawile, Mega Salamence, Mega Charizard deal with Perish Song as well, and this is nothing new.

 

[DEG]

I spoke to xfix on showdown about this a little bit, but basically hoopa-u means that perish song is completely nerfed (touched on a bit above by lyse) and there is no more need to suspect perish swag imo.

The 2 most common perish song mons are melo and azu. Hyperspace Fury obviously wrecks melo, making that a nonissue. Gunk shot also wrecks azu, with a guaranteed OHKO. There's 2 opportunities to hit azu as well, so while its only an 80% accuracy move, missing twice is a 1/25 chance iirc making it almost irrelevant.

Perish Song, isn't nerfed. We gained another check to it but it still ruins a specific play style, which why some moves/pokemon get suspected. In instance, Hoopa-U can be not presence in some 1v1, due to it's minimal superiority over other choices, as I repeat it's not bad, but it's not amazing either. You can read my post above to see what I mean.

 

[Gradient Facade]

I spoke to xfix on showdown about this a little bit, but basically hoopa-u means that perish song is completely nerfed (touched on a bit above by lyse) and there is no more need to suspect perish swag imo.

The 2 most common perish song mons are melo and azu. Hyperspace Fury obviously wrecks melo, making that a nonissue. Gunk shot also wrecks azu, with a guaranteed OHKO. There's 2 opportunities to hit azu as well, so while its only an 80% accuracy move, missing twice is a 1/25 chance iirc making it almost irrelevant.

Hoopa-U may counter perish song to a significant degree, but it kinda gets lost to obscurity against almost all top offensive threats including special attackers like charizard Y and choice specs porygon-z without nearly complete special defense investment. Greninja and bulky specs Meloetta are pretty much the only common special attackers in 1v1 that Hoopa-U can reliably take down without investment in bulk. There's pretty much no chance for Hoopa-U against physical attackers with its abysmal defense and STAB moves that admittedly are poor for actually getting super effective hits against the rest of the 1v1 offensive metagame.

The general lack of an ability for hoopa-U to take hits severely hurts it's 1v1 influence and means that Hoopa-U's strengths only lie in somewhat keeping an opponent guessing as to whether or not it is a physical attacker or a special attacker, facing slower stall oriented mons and certain slower offensive pokemon under specific circumstances.

One perish song counter that loses to offensive pressure does not cure the unbalance that perish song causes. The suspect test still has very logical reasoning to happen in that regard. Heck, if perish song is banned and the amount of defensive mons or offensive tanks increases, that would actually be more of a benefit then a downfall for Hoopa-U, but that's just my opinion and has not been proven.

 

[1vI]

I'd like to mention a bunch of other things.
While Hoopas Atk, SpAtk, and SpDef may seem to define this pokemon, you shouldn't overlook it's potentially useful useful list of status moves including: Light screen, Guard Swap, Trick, Nasty Plot, even Snatch (to snatch up a Calm Mind or Dragon Dance from an opponent perhaps?) and many more TM moves. With it's access to such supporting moves, Hoopa might just find another practical niche in 1v1 too.
Wonder Room Guard Swap and Light Screen allow you to play with Hoopa's defenses, perhaps to your advantage. Trick is a reliable way to permanently encore most stall pokes, and finish them off with your attacks. Overall, I wouldn't normally use Hoopa, but with some of its high stats, ability to stop both protect, substitute, abuse trick on stall pokes, and counter some various other sets, it might just have already carved it's own niche in 1v1.

Yup, I blabber useless information :/

 

[The Immortal]

Perish Song Suspect Test

In order to be eligible to vote, you'll have to achieve an ELO rating of 1600 1550.

The suspect test will last exactly 2 weeks from the time of this post. Once you qualify, take a screenshot of your /rank and post it here. Put your vote in the same post. I will delete your post and add you to the list of voters below if you have done everything correctly.

Because there isn't a fresh ladder, you are required to start with a clean alt. You do not have identify yourself in the alt, but you are required to put "PS" in it.

Your options when voting are: Ban Perish Song / Do not ban Perish Song. Perish Song will be banned if it achieves a minimum 60% pro-ban majority.

Note: This doesn't count towards TC badge.

Users that voted

1) Dream Eater Genger
2) aesf
3) dusk raimon
4) Gradient Facade
5) The Official Glyx
6) SlimSully
7) StarkBoy
8) LaxLapras
9) HaxED
10) Articuno I
11) Kabuto Yakushi
12) Mariode
13) Rumplestiltskin
14) TheHungrySage
15) The Immortal
16) Deathly ♛The King
17) Uselesscrab
18) TheDarkAlakazam
19) Star Sky
20) pokerontilt
21) Redenstien
22) cryalot
23) juve
24) Demacian
25) Bean
26) ORAS-Mega
27) jeran
28) Piccolo Daimao
29) MukUsedDrillPeck
30) Melodic D Minor
31) dakota494
32) Kingslayer2779
33) Nightmare13
34) scam
35) Knuckstrike
36) Nick~XVZ
37) Tricking
38) nimzowitsch
39) Gengar955
40) Kit Kasai
41) adiass
42) Gross Sweep

 

[dusk raimon]

I will vote, I'm so hyped, keeping my vote a secret fufufuf

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Perish Song Suspect Test

In order to be eligible to vote, you'll have to achieve an ELO rating of 1600. I reserve the right to lower the rating requirement according to the results of the first week of laddering.

The suspect test will last exactly 2 weeks from the time of this post. Once you qualify, take a screenshot of your /rank and post it here. Put your vote in the same post. I will delete your post and add you to the list of voters below if you have done everything correctly.

Because there isn't a fresh ladder, you are required to start with a clean alt. You do not have identify yourself in the alt, but you are required to put "PS" in it.

Your options when voting are: Ban Perish Song / Do not ban Perish Song. Perish Song will be banned if it achieves a minimum 60% pro-ban majority.

Note: This doesn't count towards TC badge.

Users that voted

Dream Eater Genger
aesf
dusk raimon

I would just like to point out, that as of the writing of this post 1600 elo is top 10 on the ladder. Do you really want it to be that difficult to make reqs?

 

[The Immortal]

I would just like to point out, that as of the writing of this post 1600 elo is top 10 on the ladder. Do you really want it to be that difficult to make reqs?

It's very easy to get 1500-1550. A decent player can get it in a couple hours. And with 1v1 battles being quick, in general, plus the 2 week period, any lower than 1600 would be too easy.

 

[The Official Glyx]

I understand that going against the majority usually is a poor idea, but this time, it's gone too far. I don't intend on droning on about how awful you probably are if you can't beat perish song users, instead, I aim at discussing the key points and problems I've found with all of this.

Firstly, the issue of perish song's alleged "over centralization". While yes, perish song DOES act as a strong force, it is also faulty in that it has many weaknesses, common ones being taunt and raw power; the most effective taunter's of the meta tend to be a mix of both, being Mawile and Aggron, for the most part. Given a tiny bit of speed investment, they outspeed Azu and with only base 50 speed, they are guaranteed to underspeed Meloetta, while at the same time, both are capable of stopping the infamous specs Melo. Taunting a Melo also requires a bit of predicting, as they can come armed with magic coat, but if a correct prediction is made, then it's a near guaranteed 2hko for the Melo.

Secondly, all these posts seem to me as if they are made under the pretense that you'll never see your opponent again, which is completely incorrect. The upper levels of 1v1 (usually ranging from 1300-1400 and up) are very close knit in that you are VERY likely to encounter the person you just battled immediately after battling someone else afterwards. This means that learning sets and counterteaming are very common aspects in the meta, and as such, the surprise factor of your specs Melo is gone, meaning that your opponent can now switch in a staller and pp stall you to death or simply sweep you down, since they know you're not the bulky set.

Third, I want you to visualize what 1v1 would be like without perish song; a much more limited meta, restricting the number of viable non-attacking pokes to little more than Porygon 2 and all the level 1/2 troll sets. As a result, people would turn to the offensive pokes, looking to make them into more defensive, gimmicky type sets that tend to only best an opponent once.

Lastly, banning perish song would only result in a less diverse, black-and-white meta in which players become closer to if not completely capable of creating a perfect team that could handle all threats, because there would be so few usable Pokemon left. A meta is made much more enjoyable when everyone has access to use the sets that they want to use and aren't forced to succumb to the generic sets that everybody uses.

On a side note, I think the requirement for being able to vote on this matter should be raised to 1650, as I was able to reach the required 1600 twice (neither of which were on PS accounts, unfortunately) fairly easily by using teams I had simply thrown together because I thought they'd be fun to use.

 

[DEG]

I understand that going against the majority usually is a poor idea, but this time, it's gone too far. I don't intend on droning on about how awful you probably are if you can't beat perish song users, instead, I aim at discussing the key points and problems I've found with all of this.

Firstly, the issue of perish song's alleged "over centralization". While yes, perish song DOES act as a strong force, it is also faulty in that it has many weaknesses, common ones being taunt and raw power; the most effective taunter's of the meta tend to be a mix of both, being Mawile and Aggron, for the most part. Given a tiny bit of speed investment, they outspeed Azu and with only base 50 speed, they are guaranteed to underspeed Meloetta, while at the same time, both are capable of stopping the infamous specs Melo. Taunting a Melo also requires a bit of predicting, as they can come armed with magic coat, but if a correct prediction is made, then it's a near guaranteed 2hko for the Melo.

First of all, the over centralization of Perish song is unhealthy to the meta, you by yourself have said that it can be beaten by brute force or taunt which means it requires the use of two things that a player can not use for building a team. Underspeeding Meloetta doesn't mean a thing thanks to it access to trick room, I'd like to correct a point, it doesn't have many weakness. If you, by your style, use hyper offense doesn't mean everyone has to run hyper offense just for the sake of beating Perish Song.

Secondly, all these posts seem to me as if they are made under the pretense that you'll never see your opponent again, which is completely incorrect. The upper levels of 1v1 (usually ranging from 1300-1400 and up) are very close knit in that you are VERY likely to encounter the person you just battled immediately after battling someone else afterwards. This means that learning sets and counterteaming are very common aspects in the meta, and as such, the surprise factor of your specs Melo is gone, meaning that your opponent can now switch in a staller and pp stall you to death or simply sweep you down, since they know you're not the bulky set.

Secondly, we're talking about the 1v1 metagame in general, not everyone spend their times laddering to meet the same person over and over again, let's not forget the fact that there's side challenges and tournaments, you cannot know if that Azumarill is banded or perish song which both have different checks and counters, you don't know if that Meloetta is perish song or specs which both also have different checks and counters. Also Counterteaming shouldn't be a choice while playing, the fact of having a 3 pokemon team preview inforce the fact that your opponent can change his choice.

On a side note, I think the requirement for being able to vote on this matter should be raised to 1650, as I was able to reach the required 1600 twice (neither of which were on PS accounts, unfortunately) fairly easily by using teams I had simply thrown together because I thought they'd be fun to use.

The requirement is good like it is now, only 3 users have reached them despite the passing of three days, not everyone has a lot of time to ladder and reach 1650 specially when you're up in the 1600, winning would grant u +6 while loosing punches you in the face with a -30 discouraging lot of users that wish to share their opinion.

 

[The Official Glyx]

First of all, the over centralization of Perish song is unhealthy to the meta, you by yourself have said that it can be beaten by brute force or taunt which means it requires the use of two things that a player can not use for building a team. Underspeeding Meloetta doesn't mean a thing thanks to it access to trick room, I'd like to correct a point, it doesn't have many weakness. If you, by your style, use hyper offense doesn't mean everyone has to run hyper offense just for the sake of beating Perish Song.

Trick room means nothing, it is a negative priority move which you can taunt on the turn it uses it. The thing is, a vast majority of all song users leave themselves widely exposed to literally everything, hyper offense or not.

Secondly, we're talking about the 1v1 metagame in general, not everyone spend their times laddering to meet the same person over and over again, let's not forget the fact that there's side challenges and tournaments, you cannot know if that Azumarill is banded or perish song which both have different checks and counters, you don't know if that Meloetta is perish song or specs which both also have different checks and counters. Also Counterteaming shouldn't be a choice while playing, the fact of having a 3 pokemon team preview inforce the fact that your opponent can change his choice.

I agree with you to the extent of there not always being the same people to battle, but more or less, the counters for any azu and any melo are more or less the same.

The requirement is good like it is now, only 3 users have reached them despite the passing of three days, not everyone has a lot of time to ladder and reach 1650 specially when you're up in the 1600, winning would grant u +6 while loosing punches you in the face with a -30 discouraging lot of users that wish to share their opinion.

 

[Piccolo Daimao]

DEG got most of the points I wanted to make but there are a couple others I'd like to add:

Firstly, the issue of perish song's alleged "over centralization". While yes, perish song DOES act as a strong force, it is also faulty in that it has many weaknesses, common ones being taunt and raw power; the most effective taunter's of the meta tend to be a mix of both, being Mawile and Aggron, for the most part. Given a tiny bit of speed investment, they outspeed Azu and with only base 50 speed, they are guaranteed to underspeed Meloetta, while at the same time, both are capable of stopping the infamous specs Melo. Taunting a Melo also requires a bit of predicting, as they can come armed with magic coat, but if a correct prediction is made, then it's a near guaranteed 2hko for the Melo.

The problem with this argument is that if you aren't running Aggron or Mawile and you use Taunt against a Specs Melo, you will generally lose. It's such a difficult 50/50 because mispredicting means you lose the game. It's often really hard to tell which Meloetta or Azumarill it is when you see it for the first time. And if your argument relies on the fact that you need to run Aggron or Mawile to beat Perish Song, then yes, it's overcentralizing. And besides this, not all offense can beat Melo/Azu. Kyurem-Black is one of the best offensive pokemon in the 1v1 meta, and it can't even beat Perish Song Meloetta.

Secondly, all these posts seem to me as if they are made under the pretense that you'll never see your opponent again, which is completely incorrect. The upper levels of 1v1 (usually ranging from 1300-1400 and up) are very close knit in that you are VERY likely to encounter the person you just battled immediately after battling someone else afterwards. This means that learning sets and counterteaming are very common aspects in the meta, and as such, the surprise factor of your specs Melo is gone, meaning that your opponent can now switch in a staller and pp stall you to death or simply sweep you down, since they know you're not the bulky set.

This isn't a very good argument because people can change teams easily. When I was messing around on the ladder with a team that had Meloetta, every few battles, I'd switch the Melo set from being PSong to Specs or vice versa. It's often pretty easy to guess who you will play next when the ladder is empty, because you generally get X person, then Y person, then X person, etc. and it's really easy to subtly switch your team up to mess up your opponents. Also, this is completely disregarding other forms of playing 1v1, such as tournaments.

Third, I want you to visualize what 1v1 would be like without perish song; a much more limited meta, restricting the number of viable non-attacking pokes to little more than Porygon 2 and all the level 1/2 troll sets. As a result, people would turn to the offensive pokes, looking to make them into more defensive, gimmicky type sets that tend to only best an opponent once.

I think that other defensive Pokemon are perfectly viable in the 1v1 metagame as it is (and will be even more so with PSong gone). I've ran stall fairly successfully in 1v1, but nowhere near as well as Rumplestiltskin (who, as you probably know, almost always runs stall and is almost always in the top 25 multiple times). I don't see how perish song being banned will make the meta "much more limited" or more offense oriented. In fact, I'd argue the opposite: Perish Song allows stall to be more viable. As you said earlier, Perish Song is countered by some offense and fast Taunt users, which stall often lacks.

Lastly, banning perish song would only result in a less diverse, black-and-white meta in which players become closer to if not completely capable of creating a perfect team that could handle all threats, because there would be so few usable Pokemon left. A meta is made much more enjoyable when everyone has access to use the sets that they want to use and aren't forced to succumb to the generic sets that everybody uses.

I think you're being a bit overdramatic here. "So few usable Pokemon left" makes very little sense to me. This literally removes like 2, maybe 3 Pokemon from being viable (Specs Melo will still probably be good if PSong gets banned). Also, I don't see how this would make the meta so much more black and white than it is currently by changing very little. Can you please elaborate on this? Finally, Perish Song is a very popular and generic set that is quite common. (If you need proof of this, 75% of Azumarills in 1v1 1760 ran Perish Song last month http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-06/moveset/1v1-1760.txt)

On a side note, I think the requirement for being able to vote on this matter should be raised to 1650, as I was able to reach the required 1600 twice (neither of which were on PS accounts, unfortunately) fairly easily by using teams I had simply thrown together because I thought they'd be fun to use.

I think that 1600 is high enough and 1650 would be a fairly ridiculous requirement. Considering the top of the ladder is (at the time of writing this) 1644, the idea that people need to get higher than that in order to vote on whether or not something should be banned doesn't make sense. There are 6 people on the ladder with 1600 currently. I don't think that this requirement is too easy.

 

[Mazetron]

Just to be clear, this would apply only to 1v1, right?

 

[The Immortal]

Just to be clear, this would apply only to 1v1, right?

Yes...

 

[P3DS]

Personally, as an avid perish trapper in VGC, I can say it is a nasty move 1v1. If you are the slowest, and can last that time, then you win. I can say that it is hard not to win if you play well with it. If said trapper knows trick room, then the game is theirs pretty much, since they can control the game. You need to be able to 2HKO any pokemon, and if that is impossible, then you have no chance to win

 

[Mari]

An interesting way to escape Perish song: Using Hammer Arm to be slower than Murkrow: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-254964558

 

[TBF Bri 10]

Life is too busy these days to attempt what is basically a Top 10 in the ladder, but as a guy who used to have several alts in the Top 10 (and even making #1), it is pretty obvious that Perish Song needs to be banned. Even if Pokémon's own mechanics give one or the other a victory, it is still a double KO, and since PS no longer does ties, it is not right for one person's score to go up and another's to go down over a double KO move.

 

[SpartanMalice]

So idk how we are supposed to "prove" the ladder alt we use (assuming IP check), but anyway I'm laddering under the alt PStevenGerrard just in case I need to mention earlier.

 

[The Immortal]

So idk how we are supposed to "prove" the ladder alt we use (assuming IP check), but anyway I'm laddering under the alt PStevenGerrard just in case I need to mention earlier.

I can IP check if something looks suspicious, yeah.

I actually found one cheater in the BH suspect

 

[Josh]

Really, I don't think it should be that difficult to make the cut line lower and then give more authority to those above 1600, would it be?

It's not that it's difficult, it's that it defeats the purpose. The point is, as many people complain, they ladder to 1500 within an hour and can't hit 1600. This is a 2 week suspect, you shouldn't be able to do it in an hour. Additionally, with such a high requirement only the best 1v1 players will reach it. That means only the best players in the tier will vote, which makes sense because they know the meta best and will be able to judge what is and what isn't healthy for it.

So idk how we are supposed to "prove" the ladder alt we use (assuming IP check), but anyway I'm laddering under the alt PStevenGerrard just in case I need to mention earlier.

A screenshot is enough proof really lol I'm not sure who would inspect element something like this that is so easily checkable. Like ti said he could check if it's needed.

 

[DoW]

I'm sure that it does not take the two weeks and the effort it takes to reach 1600 to know the meta quite well - at least well enough to decide whether a certain method of playing should be banned or not. Rather, people who have achieved 1600+ are, as you have already said, the best players in 1v1. They have reached that stage because they have been able to overcome the perish song method and all. In other words, they are already capable of going through perish song. Well, if so, do you think they should be the ones that get to decide whether that play is banned or not? I mean, the only ones?
If we do ban perish song, the reason would be that it is too difficult to get through the strategy. People who already did get through might have trouble understanding this.

I have to say I disagree with this. While those that get to 1600 are capable of beating Perish Song, this does not mean they won't think it broken and in fact means they'll have an even clearer understanding of how it works and whether it's restrictive without simply thinking "I can't beat it therefore it's bad" which is a mentality people have about a number of pokemon such as Mega Salamence.