Cloyster is only decent in the lower ladder, as few people pack things that can wall it, or let them die foolishly. Most Steel and bulky Water types can easily wall Cloyster and kill it with little to no effort; Empoleon is probably the greatest example, as Cloyster still does 0 after the +2 even to SpD Emp. As for checking Dragons, most Fairies can do the job better, and the Ice types we have are generally better than Cloyster overall. It just sort of becomes a wasted slot as you get higher up.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)
- Thread starter Omfuga
- Start date
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Cloyster is only decent in the lower ladder, as few people pack things that can wall it, or let them die foolishly. Most Steel and bulky Water types can easily wall Cloyster and kill it with little to no effort; Empoleon is probably the greatest example, as Cloyster still does 0 after the +2 even to SpD Emp. As for checking Dragons, most Fairies can do the job better, and the Ice types we have are generally better than Cloyster overall. It just sort of becomes a wasted slot as you get higher up.
Eh, Cloyster gets a bad rap because it gets spammed on low ladder, usually with something crappy like King's Rock to hax through otherwise bad matchups. It can still be a decent (though largely outclassed) mid to late game sweeper, and LO Smash/Icicle Spear/Hydro Pump/Explosion Cloyster is a cool lure both for bulky waters like Suicune and physically defensive Steels like Doublade/Cobalion, to break down teams for something like Luke or Sharpedo to sweep late game.
There are definitely better options, and I doubt it is worth more than B-, but I think its popularity in the low ladder tends to make people harsher toward it than it deserves.
There are definitely better options, and I doubt it is worth more than B-, but I think its popularity in the low ladder tends to make people harsher toward it than it deserves.
For those that are saying gothitelle should be placed in D rank...
There is a difference between placing stuff like Scrafty/Trevenant in D rank because they were shit mons that somehow lasted in this tier for several months of time even after like 90% of the community harps about how bad it is. Gothitelle is a different story because unless it goes back to OU, I highly doubt it will get close to enough usage in this tier in order for it to not drop lol. So Gothitelle will not be ranked.
If somehow Gothitelle does not drop within the next month because people are dumb enough to use it even though it is 100% outclassed by Meloetta, then there would be reason to put it in D rank.
There is a difference between placing stuff like Scrafty/Trevenant in D rank because they were shit mons that somehow lasted in this tier for several months of time even after like 90% of the community harps about how bad it is. Gothitelle is a different story because unless it goes back to OU, I highly doubt it will get close to enough usage in this tier in order for it to not drop lol. So Gothitelle will not be ranked.
If somehow Gothitelle does not drop within the next month because people are dumb enough to use it even though it is 100% outclassed by Meloetta, then there would be reason to put it in D rank.
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I honestly can't understand why teal6's post of Shedinja getting a ranking hasn't been brought up more. Shedinja is a pretty good Pokemon in the UU meta. It's able to reliably hard counter many popular Pokemon in the tier thanks to Wonder Guard. Good examples being Suicune, Mega Beedrill that don't run Knock Off, Calm Mind and Twin Screens Cresselia, Dragalge, Mega Swampert, Mega Sceptile, Snorlax, and even my babu Kyurem. Unless one of them carries a coverage move that can knock it out, they aren't capable of touching it at all. That's an incredible trait right there.
Because of that, it forces your opponent to switch out to bring in something that is capable of taking it out, which can ease you of over-predicting somewhat, and allow you to switch in to an appropriate member, giving you momentum. It works even better with Baton Pass, which works well when used during the turn your opponent switches out, allowing you to pick the best teammate to send in and possibly score a KO.
Obviously Shedinja has its numerous flaws. All entry hazards barring Sticky Web automatically knock it out, sandstorm and hail KO it, it dies to a simple burn and toxic, and it has common weakness to Fire, Flying, Rock, Dark, and Ghost moves. Some of these problems can easily be sorted out with giving Shedinja a Focus Sash to take at least one hit, a reliable Defogger/Rapid Spinner/Magic Bouncer, and members that easily resist Shedinja's weaknesses. There's also the factor that if your opponent has a team that carries many coverage moves that are all able to hit Shedinja, then it does end up being dead weight on your team.
If it does get a viability ranking, I think that it should potentially get a B rank. If that's too high, then maybe B-
Because of that, it forces your opponent to switch out to bring in something that is capable of taking it out, which can ease you of over-predicting somewhat, and allow you to switch in to an appropriate member, giving you momentum. It works even better with Baton Pass, which works well when used during the turn your opponent switches out, allowing you to pick the best teammate to send in and possibly score a KO.
Obviously Shedinja has its numerous flaws. All entry hazards barring Sticky Web automatically knock it out, sandstorm and hail KO it, it dies to a simple burn and toxic, and it has common weakness to Fire, Flying, Rock, Dark, and Ghost moves. Some of these problems can easily be sorted out with giving Shedinja a Focus Sash to take at least one hit, a reliable Defogger/Rapid Spinner/Magic Bouncer, and members that easily resist Shedinja's weaknesses. There's also the factor that if your opponent has a team that carries many coverage moves that are all able to hit Shedinja, then it does end up being dead weight on your team.
If it does get a viability ranking, I think that it should potentially get a B rank. If that's too high, then maybe B-
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Mega Ampharos has the ability Mold Breaker, so Wonder Guard is irrelevant, just saying :). Although I do agree that it should be ranked.
Whoops, kinda forgot that Mega Amphy had that, haha.
Ok making some changes.
Tentacruel (A- to B+)
Forretress (A to A-)
Rhyperior (B+ to B)
Fletchinder (B- to C)
Jolteon (C to Unranked)
I wasn't too convinced on the few arguments for tentacruel; I'm still kind of on the fence. If you guys really don't want it to drop feel free to post and I might rise it back up.
For 2 special more..
Venomoth (Unranked to "New Pokemon" )
Gothitelle (Unranked to D)
Obviously the main thing to discuss here would be venomoth. Keep the discussion anywhere from B- to A- please.
Edit: forgot about smeargle. Same as venomoth, up for discussion (not even sure what the range for this thing should be; it's so versatile)
Tentacruel (A- to B+)
Forretress (A to A-)
Rhyperior (B+ to B)
Fletchinder (B- to C)
Jolteon (C to Unranked)
I wasn't too convinced on the few arguments for tentacruel; I'm still kind of on the fence. If you guys really don't want it to drop feel free to post and I might rise it back up.
For 2 special more..
Venomoth (Unranked to "New Pokemon" )
Gothitelle (Unranked to D)
Obviously the main thing to discuss here would be venomoth. Keep the discussion anywhere from B- to A- please.
Edit: forgot about smeargle. Same as venomoth, up for discussion (not even sure what the range for this thing should be; it's so versatile)
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Fletchender recieved no discussion at all aside from one person making a comment about scald can you please give us reasoning.
Sorry to do this just as you are considering other nominations, Omfuga, but as Christo The Gr8 and I agreed in the UU PS Room chat, we'd like to bring up Mega Beedrill to S. (Also, apologies for rambling a little bit, I tend to think as I type so I end up writing more than may be necessary, probably why when I used to write for a living I had an editor lol)
I'll start by saying that some time ago I actually thought Mega Bee should drop. I've built a lot of teams, played a lot of games with and against Mega Beedrill and reconsidered my opinion since that time, quite drastically. As I've said in the same chat, 99% of my teams I build these days have Mega Beedrill (or Mega Abomasnow) on them. I think the reason is obvious.
MBeedrill's incredibly high attack, speed tier, and offensive typing all accomplish exactly what they intend to in this meta. The argument for Beedrill actually reminds me a lot of the discussion we all had regarding Entei some months ago when he was nominated for S rank as well - though it can be predictable, if a mon accomplishes exactly what they are put on a team to do almost 100% of the time, can they be anything less than S?
It's a little harder to put into exact words than Entei was, though. Beedrill's strength, I think, lies primarily in the fact that it synergizes so well with so many other great mons in the tier. It has very few outright counters among the viable mons of UU. Take for example the rest of the S rank:
Mega Aero: one of the main reasons MAero remains this high in the viability rankings is the fact that it outspeeds MBee. While MAero has a ton of other positive attributes, if that isn't a flat out sign of viability I don't know what is.
Feraligatr: Can come in on rocks one time before it is OHKOd by Mega Beedrill. Needs to be running Aqua Jet to pose any sort of threat, as it doesn't even outspeed Jolly Bee variants at +1 with the Dragon Dance set.
Hydreigon: Needs to be wearing a scarf to not have to switch out. If Hydrei is not scarfed (which is, I think commonly agreed), the lesser of its popular sets at the moment, then the Hydreigon user immediately either forfeits a ton of momentum or sacks a mon to MBee.
Salamence: Will be U-Turned out on, often comes in on rocks (as it is used commonly as a defogger), taking at minimum 45% just to switch in to get the intimidate off and usually be forced out by another mon.
So I guess what I'm trying to get across is that, due to it's STAB Adaptability U-Turn, even "counters" to Mega Beedrill that can take a hit and OHKO back usually don't function that way. I understand that the mons listed above are primarily offensive, but Beedrill fairs just as well against defensive mons, either outright slaughtering them (Cresselia, Reuniclus, Florges, Slowking) or denting them significantly and forcing them to Rest/Recover in some other way (Snorlax, Suicune). The problem with switching into Mega Beedrill, as I'm sure many of you know by now, is that you are immediately under pressure again the turn after because you're usually switching into a U-Turn. For a more practical example of what I mean exactly, please watch this UUPL match featured in the Better Battlers project:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-58019
In this high level match, Beedrill facilitates nearly everything dodmen accomplishes. It set him up to get easy rocks within the first few turns. It keep Alomomola stuck in a Wish/Protect loop. It displays synergy with just one other VoltTurn mon, the S Rank Hydreigon (so, not exactly uncommon), to bring about a Slurpuff sweep. Hazard stacking plays it part and proves once again how effective a strategy it is when combined with a mon that doesn't hit and run as part of a defensive, long term strategy, but as an active and outright offensive one. Simply put, there are almost 0 chances to Jirachee to respond to Mega Beedrill in this game, and it keeps momentum firmly on dodmen's side.
I guess the last point I'd like to make is actually in favor of the mandatory Protect in Bee's arsenal. Folks are probably used to arguing that this was a negative, but Protect is actually a great move on this mon. Considering that, aside from Mega Aero, you're typically going to need a Scarfed Mon to revenge Beedrill, Protect again puts the momentum in the favor of the user by easily scouting what move they're locked into. Christo proves this in the following replay, allowing him to easily work around a scarfed Mence and keep control of the game:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-255950592
In conclusion, amazing offensive typing, ability to aggressively pivot out without sacrificing momentum (think like a Lando-T might in OU, where the U-Turn won't hurt very much), top-tier sweeper stats, synergy with other VoltTurn mons, synergy with hazard-stacking cores and ability to facilitate sweeps for other setup mons (Gatr, Slurpuff) mean that this is one of the top premier threats of our metagame at the moment. I think anything Mega Beedrill definitely deserves S rank.
Venomoth is an interesting Pokemon. With it's access to Quiver Dance and Sleep Powder, and some nifty abilities in Tinted Lens and Wonder Skin, Venomoth could be a pretty good sweeper if it gets a chance to set up. It has some good coverage moves in Bug Buzz and Psychic, which along with Tinted Lens, allows it to put a pretty big dent against many Pokemon, even those that resist these moves such as Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl, while also having perfect neutral coverage against most Pokemon in the tier. If it runs Wonder Skin, it has a good 50% chance of avoiding status like Paralysis and being Taunted, both which prevent it from setting up properly.
The big problems with it though are that it has weaknesses to common attacking moves which are Fire, Rock, Flying, and Psychic. While it does have some good resistances, especially against Fighting and Grass type moves, it has pretty low defenses, as 70/60/75 is not going to help it out much. Even neutral attacks will hurt it pretty badly. It also has a hard time setting up against opponents who are faster than it, under the constant threat of being 1HKOed and even at +1 speed, it is still outsped by mons like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, and certain Choice Scarf users like Mienshao and Hydreigon. It's base Sp.Atk and Speed stats aren't really spectacular, so in order to be a real threat, it needs to accumulate enough boosts to do any big damage. It's also vulnerable to Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, and does require Defog/Rapid Spin support.
Despite those problems, I do believe that Venomoth is capable of being a great Quiver Dance sweeper, one that can a real pain to stop once it gets those boosts. I could see it being placed in the B- rank.
The big problems with it though are that it has weaknesses to common attacking moves which are Fire, Rock, Flying, and Psychic. While it does have some good resistances, especially against Fighting and Grass type moves, it has pretty low defenses, as 70/60/75 is not going to help it out much. Even neutral attacks will hurt it pretty badly. It also has a hard time setting up against opponents who are faster than it, under the constant threat of being 1HKOed and even at +1 speed, it is still outsped by mons like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, and certain Choice Scarf users like Mienshao and Hydreigon. It's base Sp.Atk and Speed stats aren't really spectacular, so in order to be a real threat, it needs to accumulate enough boosts to do any big damage. It's also vulnerable to Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, and does require Defog/Rapid Spin support.
Despite those problems, I do believe that Venomoth is capable of being a great Quiver Dance sweeper, one that can a real pain to stop once it gets those boosts. I could see it being placed in the B- rank.
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As good as Beedrill is I just can't see it in the same rank as the other s tier mons for the simple fact that it provides no defensive utility at all to a team. Its typing seems neat with a 4x fighting resist but it's paper thin defense just doesn't let it stomach any hits. Looking at other s-tier mons, they all provide a solid defensive component to a team while still maintaining their threatening offensive disposition. That in addition to the fact that most meaningful priority will just knock it out after a couple rocks switch ins leave Beedrill in a strange spot. For something to reach s rank on purely offensive merit it would have to be so good that many would probably be calling for its head (think hawlucha). Beedrill just doesn't seem to be in that next level to me.
Yeah, as much as I like Mega Beedrill, I don't think it's that great to be placed S rank. Beedrill's defensive typing isn't terrible, but it's far from perfect. 65/40/80 defenses are not really much to write home about either, as even neutral attacks are capable of denting it pretty hard. It really hates priority moves from the likes of Feraligatr, Fletchinder, and Entei. It's also pretty easy to wall it with the likes of Crobat, Tentacruel, Alomomola, Suicune, with the first two having perfect resistance to Beedrill's main two STABs.
Beedrill is a great offensive mon no doubt about it, but because it's problems are pretty big ones, I don't think it should move up at all.
Beedrill is a great offensive mon no doubt about it, but because it's problems are pretty big ones, I don't think it should move up at all.
beedrill isn't effectively devoid of a defensive presence insofar as you consider the implications of its stabs. although it's nigh on impossible to hard switch beedrill into most pokes, the omnipresence of grass types, florges, and cresselia/reuniclus do give it more breathing room than you may think. the ability to soft check the psychics in particular is quite a potent niche which gives interesting flexibility in a team's composition. teal's post manifests the powerhouse that beedrill is, and beedrill even has a few niche options to consider as well. on a more balanced squad, i've even used toxic spikes as a last move on beedrill on the switch which is an intriguing way to help itself break past bulkier waters later in the game. yabo's post contests priority is a cause for concern, yet priority is few and far in between as far as the tier is concerned. the best priority users are hotly contested for team slots with other similar-in-niche pokemon. mamoswine and feraligatr come to mind, and you must agree there are certainly several other viable waters and grounds.
despite that, i'm not really quite convinced by s-rank. notwithstanding beedrill's dominating offensive presence and mustered defensive niche, it still lacks the all-purpose splashability that other mons of said rank possess. beedrill typically requires more team support, with pokemon like magneton being common partners. beedrill isn't apt enough in any role to put on a team to fulfill a purpose. aerodactyl's defensive niche and dominating offensive presence can often be an 'afterthought' of sorts; the former necessitates a team to be built around it, while the latter can be put on a team to fulfill certain needs. this distinction inclines me to say that beedrill isn't s-rank.
despite that, i'm not really quite convinced by s-rank. notwithstanding beedrill's dominating offensive presence and mustered defensive niche, it still lacks the all-purpose splashability that other mons of said rank possess. beedrill typically requires more team support, with pokemon like magneton being common partners. beedrill isn't apt enough in any role to put on a team to fulfill a purpose. aerodactyl's defensive niche and dominating offensive presence can often be an 'afterthought' of sorts; the former necessitates a team to be built around it, while the latter can be put on a team to fulfill certain needs. this distinction inclines me to say that beedrill isn't s-rank.
I think it's about time Suicune moved back up to S
CroCune sets are as good as they have always been. SubCM and SubCM Roar are also both very good right now. However, I think the set that pushes it in to S is RestTalk Roar. RoarCune is pretty much insurance that you're not going to be swept by a ton of mons (Gatr, Doublade, opposing CroCune) and it is so splashable on balances team it's ridiculous. It works very well with hazards and happens to have great synergy with the Grass-type Spike setters. What's great is that it works well against defensive teams as well because it can 'fast roar' when it calls roar with Sleep Talk, meaning it has a shot to shuffle around spinners and defoggers before they can clear hazards. This mon is seriously so good right now.
CroCune sets are as good as they have always been. SubCM and SubCM Roar are also both very good right now. However, I think the set that pushes it in to S is RestTalk Roar. RoarCune is pretty much insurance that you're not going to be swept by a ton of mons (Gatr, Doublade, opposing CroCune) and it is so splashable on balances team it's ridiculous. It works very well with hazards and happens to have great synergy with the Grass-type Spike setters. What's great is that it works well against defensive teams as well because it can 'fast roar' when it calls roar with Sleep Talk, meaning it has a shot to shuffle around spinners and defoggers before they can clear hazards. This mon is seriously so good right now.
@iamthebat sorry for responding so late...I will edit this post later today with espeon replays. I actually found a couple of replays (pretiershift and I think premegapidg ban?) but didn't want to post them because I didn't have the time to write commentary with them which I kind of needed to explain my thoughts. I was also kind of hoping it would rise w/o further discussion but sigh okay
Before I head off to Canada for a week (sorry Mazz but i'll be nowhere near where you probably are :/), I need to
Mega Aerodactyl to A+ rank
Since the emergence of threats like Gatr, Mamoswine, Porygon2, Doublade, and Cobalion (to an extent), I feel that it has fallen off from its glory days of when it was (basically) the king of this tier. A few others and I now feel that it is currently the worst out of the S rank 'mons, and I want to take it even further and say that it fits in the A+ rank more than it does S rank because it just doesn't perform its roles in battle as consistently as it had been just a couple months back, especially when there wasn't as much super-effective priority flying around back then and its ability to check more massive threats was a lot more valuable.
Also I support Cune for S rank again; with Mega Pidgey out of this tier, RestTalk Roar Cune has emerged as not just my favorite option on my balance teams, but also something that is capable of checking certain threats even better than it has been with its CroCune set. Sam nailed this nomination right on the head and as a heavy user of this Cune set, I give my full support to this nomination.
Mega Aerodactyl to A+ rank
Since the emergence of threats like Gatr, Mamoswine, Porygon2, Doublade, and Cobalion (to an extent), I feel that it has fallen off from its glory days of when it was (basically) the king of this tier. A few others and I now feel that it is currently the worst out of the S rank 'mons, and I want to take it even further and say that it fits in the A+ rank more than it does S rank because it just doesn't perform its roles in battle as consistently as it had been just a couple months back, especially when there wasn't as much super-effective priority flying around back then and its ability to check more massive threats was a lot more valuable.
Also I support Cune for S rank again; with Mega Pidgey out of this tier, RestTalk Roar Cune has emerged as not just my favorite option on my balance teams, but also something that is capable of checking certain threats even better than it has been with its CroCune set. Sam nailed this nomination right on the head and as a heavy user of this Cune set, I give my full support to this nomination.
Suicune to S rank: AGREE. CM Roar and RoarTalk are both so good right now. CM Roar is great for more offensive teams and is a fantastic way to keep things like CM Reuni/Slowking from setting up alongside you, while RoarTalk is probably the single best blanket check to physical threats in the tier. It's time for the King to take back his throne - bring Suicune back to S rank.
Mega-Aerodactyl to A+ rank: DISAGREE. Yeah, the popularity of P2 on offense and Cobalion/Doublade on balance lately certainly means M-Aero has more checks than it once did, but it's also still just about the most versatile 'mon in the tier. It can sweep, revenge kill, stallbreak, wallbreak, pursuit trap, defog, spread status, drop rocks, etc. Yes, it has a bunch of checks, but the only set that actually cares about checks is the Hone Claws sweeper, since Mega-Aero doesn't actually care about staying in. Also, while 'mons like Doublade are on the rise, so are others such as Mega-Beedrill and Azelf that strengthen its spot.
Basically, M-Aero fits on just about any team, on any playstyle, and consistently does good work. Yeah, it's not as immediately threatening as something like Gatr, but the insane flexibility it provides makes it still worth S-rank in my mind.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Tentacruel. I'm so torn on this. For the most part I've agreed with moving it down, but I've taken to using it more lately thanks to the rise in popularity of SD Cobalion and Doublade, as well as CM Roar Suicune (the latter of which it handles fairly well thanks to its solid SDef and access to Haze). It still has some problems, but I'm not 100% sold on dropping it all the way down to B+.
Mega-Aerodactyl to A+ rank: DISAGREE. Yeah, the popularity of P2 on offense and Cobalion/Doublade on balance lately certainly means M-Aero has more checks than it once did, but it's also still just about the most versatile 'mon in the tier. It can sweep, revenge kill, stallbreak, wallbreak, pursuit trap, defog, spread status, drop rocks, etc. Yes, it has a bunch of checks, but the only set that actually cares about checks is the Hone Claws sweeper, since Mega-Aero doesn't actually care about staying in. Also, while 'mons like Doublade are on the rise, so are others such as Mega-Beedrill and Azelf that strengthen its spot.
Basically, M-Aero fits on just about any team, on any playstyle, and consistently does good work. Yeah, it's not as immediately threatening as something like Gatr, but the insane flexibility it provides makes it still worth S-rank in my mind.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Tentacruel. I'm so torn on this. For the most part I've agreed with moving it down, but I've taken to using it more lately thanks to the rise in popularity of SD Cobalion and Doublade, as well as CM Roar Suicune (the latter of which it handles fairly well thanks to its solid SDef and access to Haze). It still has some problems, but I'm not 100% sold on dropping it all the way down to B+.
At first the only Pokemon who will face competition with Venomoth is Vivillion, which has access to compound eyes, more reliable sleep power and STAB Hurricane. Although, Tinted Lens offers a great offensive ability who will allow Venomoth to sweep on late game if it gets 1 Quiver Dance. (and only x2 weakness to SR)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 265-315 (71 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (75% to OHKO if rocks are up)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 205-242 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 268-317 (68 - 80.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 242-289 (92.7 - 110.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 218-257 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't think it will be good as wallbreaker, but it can set ups on a STAB Fighting type or versus some bulky water like empoleon or no Roar Suicune, who can't toxic it. I'd say it's B- material or C, but no higher than B
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 265-315 (71 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (75% to OHKO if rocks are up)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 205-242 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 268-317 (68 - 80.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 242-289 (92.7 - 110.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 218-257 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't think it will be good as wallbreaker, but it can set ups on a STAB Fighting type or versus some bulky water like empoleon or no Roar Suicune, who can't toxic it. I'd say it's B- material or C, but no higher than B
I can't see Smeargle going higher than B-, just because it will have such a specific niche and otherwise will be outclassed at anything it can do. Until I see someone do something more interesting with it than suicide lead, I just can't see it being worth more than that.
Venomoth seems cool in theory, but the one time I've actually faced off against it, it was meh. It was easily worn down (it took a huge chunk even from resisted attacks like Beedrill's U-turn), couldn't switch in on anything but Moonblast, and was completely walled by Snorlax. I've seen calcs that make it look like it has some real potential, so I don't want to rush to a snap judgment, but I honestly have no clue as to where it should be placed in the meantime.
Can I see some viable sets of the drops? I know Euphonos was using this really cool disable venomoth which beats reuni btw. Smeargle is not as great as I thought. Then again I thought smeargle had 90 base speed before the drop. Bellydrum pass is harder than i thought. Seems to be effective against slower teams like stall but thats it. Im just having trouble seeing what these mons really are without a set that favors our meta.
Nominating Mega Houndoom for B/B+
Mega Houndoom is pretty decent right now. Bulky Psychics are on the rise, Blissey is falling in popularity, it's got a neat 115 speed stat and great special attack and a boosting move in Nasty Plot which helps it break down balance builds. it's also got a good STAB combination which is resisted by few. Other than dual STABS and Nasty Plot, it can have one more moveslot, which is open to prettty much anything. Flame Charge can be used to outspeed most Scarfers after a boost and helps it clean up easier. Protect can be used for a safe Mega evolution, or Destiny Bond can be used to take down an opponent trying to revenge it, although most things that try to revenge it are Scarfers who outspeed it. Mega Houndoom has some problems as well hindering it. It's sort of frail, and weaknesses to common Water and Fighting types are no easy issue to get past for it. But overall, Mega Houndoom is pretty nice at the moment, and imo definetely deserves a rise.
This thing is a beast right now, walling Fighting types, Flying types like Crobat, Fairy types, and even other stuff like Mega Beedrill, making it a really splashable mon on teams right now, being a great partner with stuff like Pangoro and Hydreigon. It can set up with Swords Dance and hit pretty hard, and it has priority Shadow Sneak to help pick off weakened foes and mitigate it's low speed. It can live almost any neutral hit due to it's bulk and can even live some non STAB SE hits. Doublade has some problems, though. It's special bulk, while passable with Eviolite, isn't anything to write home about, and without Eviolite, that special bulk is pretty bad. Weaknesses to common types like Fire and Ground doesn't help, and it has tough times against bulky waters like Suicune and Mega Swampert. But Doublade is such a good mon in this meta, due to it's unique typing and stats, and being a great partner with some of the biggest threats in UU definetely helps, overall Doublade is an awesome mon and deserves to move up.http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-253011446 (In this battle, Doublade helps by walling Reuniclus, and saves my butt by using Shadow Sneak to pick off Zoroark and Darmasnitan, winning me the match.)
^ Pulling these up for discussion.
Agreeing with you on Smeargle. While it has the perfect movepool (obviously) to do its job, Smeargle's low speed, high predictability, and UU's many hazard control options all give it a pretty hard time. It's forced to run Magic Coat to not be shut down by UU's many faster, stronger, more consistent suicide leads (Azelf, Froslass, Aero, etc.), which unlike Smeargle, also offer offensive utility and, excluding Froslass, actual versatility. Smeargle can hypothetically do whatever it wants, but it's going to be outclassed if it wants to do anything but Sleep Move / Hazard / Hazard / Magic Coat or suicide move. The only other thing I could think of doing work is potentially Belly Drum + Baton Pass, which sounds pretty unreliable and gimmicky.
It also seems to have a hard time against fatter, slower teams, since they can just sleep fodder something, kill the Smeargle, then undo all of its work over the course of the battle with Defog and the clerics they tend to carry. All in all, Smeargle's niche is pretty narrow, but it's nonetheless there. It has a bad matchup against other suicide leads due to its speed, unless you're carrying Magic Coat (which could well become standard, who knows), and it's too passive, frail, and disposable to be consistent, let alone do its job more than once.
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