Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[trc]

How did Klefki not go up? I'm pretty sure literally everyone supported it going to A.

Maybe literally everyone in the thread supported that, but only one person on the team agreed with it, everyone else thought it should stay A-, some even thought that A was really far-fetched.

 

[TPP]

Maybe literally everyone in the thread supported that, but only one person on the team agreed with it, everyone else thought it should stay A-, some even thought that A was really far-fetched.

Alright, thanks for replying :)

 

[Shruggy]

CHANGES

Ferrothorn: A -> A+
Gengar: A+ -> A
Hydreigon: B+ -> B
Reuniclus: B+ -> B
Azelf: B -> B-
Nidoking: D -> C-
Nidoqueen: D -> C-
Venusaur: D -> C
Crawdaunt: B > B-
Goodra: C ->
Shaymin: D -> C-

NEW SLATE: C+ AND BELOW

So there is one mon in particular at C rank that i think should definitely be higher:

Cofagrigus

This guy is kinda unique really and he has 2 sets, a hard-hitting TR one and a tanky as fuck hazards spreader. Havent really used the TR one but i've dabbled with the hazards spreader a few times and it really puts in work in so many battles in many ways.

Using this set:

Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic Spikes
- Hex
- Pain Split / Haze

He can spread statuses, take very little damage from most physical hits and has a sort of semi-reliable recovery or Haze. Also has numerous other options such as knock off / CM or NP / Heal block and Skill swap. His attacking move pool isnt the greatest but shadow is a good neutral hitter so its not so bad and his support movepool is pretty phenomenal. The other main selling point for Cof is his ability: Mummy. I think a lot of people dont really appreciate how really really good this actually is as many mons rely on their ability to do damage, Lopunny in particular becomes useless as all it can do is hit it once then its Scrappy gets overwritten and gets burnt in return. Can serve as an emergency check to mons such as Azu/MMeta/Malt/Mzard etc who all rely on their boosting abilities to sweep opponents.

Does have his flaws though, doesnt really like taking knock offs unless its a weak non-stab and its very slow. However it can easily find a space on lots of hazard spreading teams and does a very good job at spinblocking/hazarding/physically walling the enemy team, just dont rely on it to take draco meteors.

So Cofagrigus for C+ please :)

 

[heritage]

D ----> C-
So here's something that you don't see very often. Me and a few friends have been testing Mienshao for a few weeks on the ladder and, for a D rank Pokemon, I was absolutely stunned on how good it really was. It's basically a mini Mega Medicham, trading a small amount of power, Bullet Punch and bulk for a better Speed tier, less opportunity cost and U-turn (and Regenerator if you want to count that, but for now I'm looking at Reckless). Said Speed tier is actually really nice, as 105 Speed doesn't have to risk the Speed ties with Charizard, max Speed Manaphy and Jirachi, among others. It's a bit hard to get in safely, but once it comes in, something on the opposing team is going to fall, simple as that. Everything in the tier takes massive damage from High Jump Kick, and things like Landorus-T and Garchomp are punished by Hidden Power Ice, OHKOing Scarf versions (of Lando) and 2HKOing Tanks and bulky sets of both. Even resists are straight up 2HKOed. This thing is a massive pain to switch in to, and so few teams are actually prepared for it. Funny thing it, is actually has plenty of options, like Scarf, Regenerator and even Swords Dance. I haven't actually tested the Regenerator set, but even without that I can guarantee Mienshao is C- just for its Life Orb set alone. Of course Mienshao has flaws, like HJK missing, barely missing out on the 110 Speed tier and massive frailty, but I'm not asking for a 3 subrank jump or anything here. So, any thoughts?

for your viewing pleasure

Keep in mind that most Fairy-types take massive damage from Poison Jab, but with these calcs, who needs to predict?

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 227-269 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 148-175 (48.2 - 57%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 192-227 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 226-266 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 129-152 (36.5 - 43%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 175-207 (54.8 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Just for the sake of it
0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 229-270 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 265-312 (83 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 260-307 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[aceguy123]

So I looked through the C+ and lower mons to see if there were any mons that were sticking out and these are my opinions:
C+:
Staraptor should move up to B-. I think of the B- and up mons as mons I should have an answer to in teambuilding and Staraptor is the only mon I really see in the C+ lower realm that fits that bill except maybe Wobbuffet but he's so matchup dependent. Staraptor is a seriously reliable wallbreaker that is better at its job than most of the other C+ mons or it is simply more splashable (the megas, putting in Thund-T instead of regular Thund).
Rhyperior should move down to C or even lower. Honestly I don't really see what he does well that any other Rock type can't do since his typing is so pitiful and yes it has Rock Solid but it still sucks. Having stab earthquake really doesn't sell him for me. The only redeeming quality he seems to have is not being bopped by Torn-T's Superpower. I just don't see his niche being that prominent and he has a bad case of being outclassed.
C:
Mega Absol should move up to C+. Simply put Dark/Fairy is great coverage, his speed is neat for outspeeding the 110's, magic bounce is still good, and it has priority. It really wishes it had that Fairy typing and that it got more bulk instead of SpA on the mega but overall I think it has a well dug out niche but it is fairly predictable so I am hesitant to say any higher than C+.
Goodra to C+ as well. I think it was mentioned before but Goodra is a fairly underrated mon with Sap Sipper. Having an immunity to Grass is really nice in many situations especially when you normally wouldn't have a mon that can eat Spore or Leech Seed. Very effective with a Water/Ground type as well just as a side note. Obviously besides that being a SpDef wall that is offensive and good at being offensive at that is more than enough of a niche to be C+ material.
Rotom-H should go down to C-. Dunno what team is threatened by this mon. I guess its best gimmick is being able to bop one guy with overheat with choice scarf but honestly outside of Volt Switch I think Chandelure can do just about everything this guy does better just trading Volt Switch and a Ground immunity to a Fire immunity and better coverage. And I think I'd take the better coverage most of the time but I do concede having volt switch and a ground immunity is neat so it can stay above D but still, drop this thing.
C-:
Nothing in C- really stands out as needing a change except maybe Froslass? I think having fast spikes ice/ghost coverage is a pretty good niche with destiny bond although it pains me how much better it'd be if it were literally a point in speed faster to outspeed the 110's with destiny bond especially gengar who it could win against decidedly if it didn't speed tie. I just haven't really used it or seen it used enough to know how well it does in practice than in theory.
D: I will always stand for that Cloyster moving up to C- if not C, and it should've been move up a long time ago. I mean honestly it blows my mind how this thing is D when it clearly has the capability of fucking up so many teams. It's not that impossible to set up properly either, you just need decent hazard clear and run either focus sash or white herb. I think people just have a mentality that it's a noob mon that's too predictable but I think being predictable is overblown as a fault when the mon is good at what it does. And it is.
Sableye should maybe move up? I think imposing the threat of having a multiple possible mega team like Gyarados or Latias and keeping its prankster shenanigans is probably C- worthy and Dark/Ghost is still a great typing despite Fairys.

So yea in conclusion
Staraptor to B-
Rhyperior to C or lower'
Mega Absol to C+
Goodra to C+
Rotom-H to C-
Discuss Froslass to C? I'd like to see what people think
Cloyster to C- or C
Sableye to C-

 

[Kutscher]

Rhyperior deserves c+ or even b-. He can deal with so many mons, tnks to its ridículous def and atk and good ability, even without full investiment he survive an +2 iron head boosted from LO from a bisharp, and can KO it back with EQ, this means you can destroy other mons like char-x, mega pinsir, talon, tornadus-t, victini and a lot of other mons. most rock types feat the coverage moves that these Mons use to carry. This paired with ability of ser up rocks and toxic/ice punch to deal with stall mons/x4 ice weaks is enough to keep it c+. The problem with rhyperior is that he lacks recovery and needs wish support, and he faces heavy competition from ttar.

Also i would like to make a nom: gastrodon to c+, like This thing check just a few mons, and needs a lot of predicts to switch into attack since most water Mons have a way of deal with it.

 

[AM]

You can also nom stuff from B- to go down btw. Confirmed with Henry on that.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

Nominating Emboar to C-
Emboar should rise up IMO because it has a good niche as a wall breaker with decent typing. Emboar, IMO, can be compared to another wall breaker that is in C-, Pangoro. Emboar and Pangoro are extremely similar, with the main difference between them is typing. Both of them have powerful STAB's to abuse (Emboar has Flare Blitz and Superpower while Pangoro has Knock Off and Superpower), nearly identical stats (almost the same attack stat, about the same bulk, and similar speed stat), a diverse movepool (Emboar has access to Wild Charge, Sucker Punch, and Head Smash while Pangoro has the elemental punches), and pretty much the same role as a wall breaker. Emboar, however, has much greater wall breaking potential do to it's ability, Reckless, which boosts Flare Blitz's damage by a lot, as well as boosting Head Smash and Wild Charge. Emboar also has a priority move in Sucker Punch, which can pick off fast Psychic types or weakened pokemon trying to revenge kill Emboar. Emboar's fire typing also allows immunity to will-o-wisp, which is pretty useful.

One of Pangoro's niche's is to be able to hit Mega Sableye with STAB Superpower thanks to Scappy. Emboar is also able to accomplish this thanks to being a fire type and thus being immune to will-o-wisp. This gives Emboar a safer time switching in rather then predicting if Sableye will go for Foul Play/Calm Mind/Recover. Speaking of typing, Emboar's typing gives it a lot if niches to fill out. With Fire/Fighting, Emboar can safely switch into (most of the time) Bisharp, Tyranitar, Clefable, Heatran (assuming you've scouted for Earth Power), (Mega) Scizor, Volcarona, Serperior, and Klefki. With Emboar's diverse movepool, you can also smack around pokemon planning to switch into Emboar, such as Talonflame (Gets OHKO'd by Wild Charge and Head Smash, while Flare Blitz actually can OHKO with Stealth Rock up) Azumarill (Wild Charge has a 50% chance to KO after stealth rock), and Dragonite (Head Smash OHKO's after stealth rock). Being able to get Emboar into the fight is pretty easy than other wall breakers, such as Crawdaunt.

There are two main things that are holding Emboar back, those being lackluster speed and mediocre bulk. Like other wall breakers, Emboar struggles against hyper offense teams due to the majority of the opposing pokemon being faster than Emboar and hitting pretty hard as well (Sucker Punch doesn't help that much due to being somewhat unreliable). The popularity of Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Landorus-T aren't really helping Emboar either. Emboar also takes a lot of prediction to use. However, all of the pros can outweigh the cons and grant Emboar the niche as a decent wall breaker.

To conclude, Emboar should rise up to C- because of it's outstanding attack stat backed up by a fantastic ability in Reckless, a good movepool to compliment Emoar's stats and abilty, and typing that allows Emboar to check several pokemon in the OU tier.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Rhyperior deserves c+ or even b-. He can deal with so many mons, tnks to its ridículous def and atk and good ability, even without full investiment he survive an +2 iron head boosted from LO from a bisharp, and can KO it back with EQ, this means you can destroy other mons like char-x, mega pinsir, talon, tornadus-t, victini and a lot of other mons. most rock types feat the coverage moves that these Mons use to carry. This paired with ability of ser up rocks and toxic/ice punch to deal with stall mons/x4 ice weaks is enough to keep it c+. The problem with rhyperior is that he lacks recovery and needs wish support, and he faces heavy competition from ttar.

Also i would like to make a nom: gastrodon to c+, like This thing check just a few mons, and needs a lot of predicts to switch into attack since most water Mons have a way of deal with it.

The problem with Rhyperior is that it loses to a good majority of Special Attackers, which is uncommon among physical walls since pokemon like Skarmory and Tangrowth still have ways of dealing with Special attacks, but due to Rhyperiors typing it loses to pretty much every special attacker. It also has a 4x weakness to the everpresent Scald.

Anyway, I am not really for or against Rhyperior moving, but the main thing I wanted to say is that Gastro should most definitely not move down. It is one of the best stops to Volt Switch Users and Electric types in general barring Double Dance Grass Knot Thundy-T. It tanks everything MMan barring the rare HP Grass and can damage it back with STAB EQ or Earth Power and all of the damage it takes can be healed off thanks to Recover. On top of this, it serves as a hard stop to most rain teams with Storm Drain. It finds its place in many cores in Balance and its defensive typing is fantastic (Fire Resistance, Electric Immunity, Water Immunity, Rock Resistance, Ice Resistance). I find that it is effective as ever and see no reason for it to drop.

 

[bludz]

I think Mega Houndoom and Mega Pidgeot should occupy the same rank. Simply put I just don't think one is a full subrank better than the other (I kinda think Pidgeot is better personally), I haven't used either extensively but I've gone up against them both plenty. They are both checked by a ton of common things and kinda lack the coverage to deal with them. I think in particular neither's speed tier is what it used to be - moreso in the case of Houndoom - and Pidgeot having U-turn is a boon that puts it on the same level even if it's a little more easily walled.

I was gonna suggest Pidgeot to B- but I spoke with AM a bit and he thinks that Doom to C+ makes more sense. I'm impartial either way but I definitely think they should occupy the same rank.

 

[Finchinator]

What are people's thoughts on Thundurus-Therian going from C+ to B-?

Obviously, it isn't too solid overall when you compare it to electrics with more widespread niches and consistent effectiveness (Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Raikou, etc.), but it does have a promising double dance set which has seen slightly increased usage lately.

Looking at Thundy-T, I see a few glaring issues: SR weakness, inability to provide much of a defensive presence, and failing to outrun the myriad of fastmons (only has base 101 speed). All of these make Thundy-T pretty unappealing to most players and for most teams, which I understand. However, it does have a saving grace or two that compensates for the aforementioned faults and makes it worthwhile at certain times; these positive traits happen to be immunity to electric thanks to lightningrod, ability to do well later in games with a single boost, and having "fair" bulk when HP is invested in like it is with most sweeping variants.

I have only used Thundurus-T a few times myself, but I feel like set-up opportunities aren't too sparse and having strong special attack, fair speed, and two potent boosting moves opens things up for it quite a bit. I know that a few people used it in WCOP or other tournaments in recent months and it has done alright, but the real reason why I think it should rise is that it's simple better than almost everything in C+ while it fits into the B- crowd when comparing niche and viability as a whole.

In C+ there are a lot of Pokemon that are almost always outclassed or that never really find their way into teams - mega ampharos, mega Blastoise, and mega pidg are hardly ever worth using in the mega slot, Rhyperior and Seismitoad are hardly ever worth using as SR setters, and then the others in C+ aren't too hot either. On the contrary, B- has things that you can at least see being used on legitimate teams, even if they aren't too consistent; Gastrodon has a nice defensive niche, Mandibuzz can wall a significant group of threats while fulfilling supportive roles, Magneton can trap steels without being laughably slow, etc. (I could go on and on for each poke, but the point has been made, or so I hope). Thundurus-T faces competition from other electrics, but it stands out with the double dance variant as no other electric can threaten to sweep in that fashion and it has the potential to do very well with proper support or a good match-up, so I think a rise to B-, where similarly viable Pokemon currently are, is worth considering.

Outside of this, I would consider arguing for Conk to drop from B- to C+ because it doesn't really do much offensively speaking and it doesn't see any use whatsoever, but it has been B- for a long time and the AV set can still check some special attackers, so I won't argue too much on it unless others support.

Oh and finally, I agree with the above poster about both Mega Pidg and Mega Hound being in the same rank due to their comparable viability and taking up a mega slot; C+ seems better as neither is very good, but I haven't used either or faced either enough to be qualified enough to offer a justified opinion.

 

[aceguy123]

What are people's thoughts on Thundurus-Therian going from C+ to B-?

Obviously, it isn't too solid overall when you compare it to electrics with more widespread niches and consistent effectiveness (Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Raikou, etc.), but it does have a promising double dance set which has seen slightly increased usage lately.

Looking at Thundy-T, I see a few glaring issues: SR weakness, inability to provide much of a defensive presence, and failing to outrun the myriad of fastmons (only has base 101 speed). All of these make Thundy-T pretty unappealing to most players and for most teams, which I understand. However, it does have a saving grace or two that compensates for the aforementioned faults and makes it worthwhile at certain times; these positive traits happen to be immunity to electric thanks to lightningrod, ability to do well later in games with a single boost, and having "fair" bulk when HP is invested in like it is with most sweeping variants.

I have only used Thundurus-T a few times myself, but I feel like set-up opportunities aren't too sparse and having strong special attack, fair speed, and two potent boosting moves opens things up for it quite a bit. I know that a few people used it in WCOP or other tournaments in recent months and it has done alright, but the real reason why I think it should rise is that it's simple better than almost everything in C+ while it fits into the B- crowd when comparing niche and viability as a whole.

In C+ there are a lot of Pokemon that are almost always outclassed or that never really find their way into teams - mega ampharos, mega Blastoise, and mega pidg are hardly ever worth using in the mega slot, Rhyperior and Seismitoad are hardly ever worth using as SR setters, and then the others in C+ aren't too hot either. On the contrary, B- has things that you can at least see being used on legitimate teams, even if they aren't too consistent; Gastrodon has a nice defensive niche, Mandibuzz can wall a significant group of threats while fulfilling supportive roles, Magneton can trap steels without being laughably slow, etc. (I could go on and on for each poke, but the point has been made, or so I hope). Thundurus-T faces competition from other electrics, but it stands out with the double dance variant as no other electric can threaten to sweep in that fashion and it has the potential to do very well with proper support or a good match-up, so I think a rise to B-, where similarly viable Pokemon currently are, is worth considering.

Outside of this, I would consider arguing for Conk to drop from B- to C+ because it doesn't really do much offensively speaking and it doesn't see any use whatsoever, but it has been B- for a long time and the AV set can still check some special attackers, so I won't argue too much on it unless others support.

Oh and finally, I agree with the above poster about both Mega Pidg and Mega Hound being in the same rank due to their comparable viability and taking up a mega slot; C+ seems better as neither is very good, but I haven't used either or faced either enough to be qualified enough to offer a justified opinion.

I think there's a strong argument to be made that Mega Hound is more justifiable as a B- mon as it isn't really outclassed by anything as it has a unique STAB combo and actually has some pretty significant benefits you can point to over its competition (Zard Y mainly) being that it has Nasty Plot, better speed, and is technically even more powerful under sun. I'll concede it is much harder to give it that sun support but I think it stands its ground. M Pidg on the other hand is almost entirely outclassed by Torn-T except its Hurricane accuracy. Even if you are worried about Hurricane's accuracy that much it is still preferable to just run rain support for Torn-T over giving up the Mega slot. It is nearly comparable to Mega Latios in that way.

Thund-T could maybe rise but it is almost exactly like M Pidg where it is just outclassed by Thund-I. It has a bigger niche than M Pidg does but idk if it is enough. I wouldn't mind it rising but I think it should stay.

I could see Conk dropping because of how often I see opponents using him as deadweight but every once in a while someone actually plays him well and can do some work with him. So I'm a little bit torn because I see him like 90% of the time looking like a C mon and then 10% of the time looking like a B+ mon. So yea by the looks of that he averages out to about a C+ mon.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

B Rank

bludz

I disagree with this ranking. bludz really hasn't been making too many appearances in the metagame--for good reason or not, whatever you want to believe. It seems that bludz's best move is Phantom Force (because he seems to disappear more often than not), and it isn't very effective against anything in the meta. On occasion, he uses Detect to avoid being hit by anything trying to start trouble, though. His movepool is pretty blank, too, consisting of Pound, Hypnosis, Block, the aforementioned Phantom Force and Detect, and my personal favorite: Struggle. bludz seems to be the only competitor in the metagame that has access to Struggle by Level Up. The only good thing about him is that he can tank hits quite well, especially when people ask him where he is.

For this reason, I move for the following: bludz B -> Unlisted

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I think there's a strong argument to be made that Mega Hound is more justifiable as a B- mon as it isn't really outclassed by anything as it has a unique STAB combo and actually has some pretty significant benefits you can point to over its competition (Zard Y mainly) being that it has Nasty Plot, better speed, and is technically even more powerful under sun. I'll concede it is much harder to give it that sun support but I think it stands its ground. M Pidg on the other hand is almost entirely outclassed by Torn-T except its Hurricane accuracy. Even if you are worried about Hurricane's accuracy that much it is still preferable to just run rain support for Torn-T over giving up the Mega slot. It is nearly comparable to Mega Latios in that way.

Thund-T could maybe rise but it is almost exactly like M Pidg where it is just outclassed by Thund-I. It has a bigger niche than M Pidg does but idk if it is enough. I wouldn't mind it rising but I think it should stay.

I could see Conk dropping because of how often I see opponents using him as deadweight but every once in a while someone actually plays him well and can do some work with him. So I'm a little bit torn because I see him like 90% of the time looking like a C mon and then 10% of the time looking like a B+ mon. So yea by the looks of that he averages out to about a C+ mon.

It's not true that Mega Pidgeot is completely outclassed by Tornadus-T, save for Hurricane, when you've got cool utility in Work Up and Refresh and Normal-type STAB to hits Electric-types such as Raikou and Rotom-W with. It's the reason why Mega Pidgeot is a whole two ranks below Tornadus-T, but you've got to admit that having 100% accuracy on Hurricane is amazing. Work Up sets break balance nicely and it's got Refresh so it beats like Slowbro, Hex Gengar, and Clefable easier.

Mega Houndoom should go to C+. Its supposed niche as a stallbreaker doesn't really hold that well when you've got stuff like Mega Altaria, Tornadus-T, Alomomola, Talonflame, Gliscor etc. that dampen its performance against the playstyle. You've also got to choose between Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Sludge Bomb for the most part and whatever you choose you're still vulnerable to a lot of Pokemon such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Tyranitar, Talonflame, Gliscor, Tornadus-T, and Mega Altaria. Definitely should occupy the same rank as Mega Pidgeot, it's something I've wanted to post about for quite a while but seeing recent changes and all that. As a whole I think Mega Pidgeot is slightly superior but having both of them in C+ seems fine to me.

Mega Absol shouldn't rise. In my eyes it's a horrible Pokemon competitively (but it gets full marks aesthetically <3). Speed isn't even that great anymore when you have faster Pokemon such as Weavile and Tornadus-T. Struggles to find the chance to use Swords Dance without having 80% of its health sucked away, if it runs Swords Dance that is. Dark / Fairy coverage is overrated honestly when there are plenty of threats that can even shrug off +2 Knock Off / Play Rough, such as Bisharp, Klefki, Hippowdon, Azumarill, Mega Scizor, and plenty of other Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill it such as Weavile and Talonflame. Mixed sets are really weak - believe me I've used it, and you lack the firepower to break past more defensive threats such as Clefable, Alomomola, and Hippowdon. Faces a lot of competition from other Dark-types, which is probably its major flaw. Especially with Hoopa-U around, as well as other viable Dark-types such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Tyranitar, which don't take up a Mega slot, Mega Absol really shouldn't rise. Definitely not on the level of Mega Pidgeot (and Mega Houndoom!)

e: bludz to c- plz

 

[thesecondbest]

It's not true that Mega Pidgeot is completely outclassed by Tornadus-T, save for Hurricane, when you've got cool utility in Work Up and Refresh and Normal-type STAB to hits Electric-types such as Raikou and Rotom-W with. It's the reason why Mega Pidgeot is a whole two ranks below Tornadus-T, but you've got to admit that having 100% accuracy on Hurricane is amazing. Work Up sets break balance nicely and it's got Refresh so it beats like Slowbro, Hex Gengar, and Clefable easier.

Mega Houndoom should go to C+. Its supposed niche as a stallbreaker doesn't really hold that well when you've got stuff like Mega Altaria, Tornadus-T, Alomomola, Talonflame, Gliscor etc. that dampen its performance against the playstyle. You've also got to choose between Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Sludge Bomb for the most part and whatever you choose you're still vulnerable to a lot of Pokemon such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Tyranitar, Talonflame, Gliscor, Tornadus-T, and Mega Altaria. Definitely should occupy the same rank as Mega Pidgeot, it's something I've wanted to post about for quite a while but seeing recent changes and all that. As a whole I think Mega Pidgeot is slightly superior but having both of them in C+ seems fine to me.

Mega Absol shouldn't rise. In my eyes it's a horrible Pokemon competitively (but it gets full marks aesthetically <3). Speed isn't even that great anymore when you have faster Pokemon such as Weavile and Tornadus-T. Struggles to find the chance to use Swords Dance without having 80% of its health sucked away, if it runs Swords Dance that is. Dark / Fairy coverage is overrated honestly when there are plenty of threats that can even shrug off +2 Knock Off / Play Rough, such as Bisharp, Klefki, Hippowdon, Azumarill, Mega Scizor, and plenty of other Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill it such as Weavile and Talonflame. Mixed sets are really weak - believe me I've used it, and you lack the firepower to break past more defensive threats such as Clefable, Alomomola, and Hippowdon. Faces a lot of competition from other Dark-types, which is probably its major flaw. Especially with Hoopa-U around, as well as other viable Dark-types such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Tyranitar, which don't take up a Mega slot, Mega Absol really shouldn't rise. Definitely not on the level of Mega Pidgeot (and Mega Houndoom!)

e: bludz to c- plz

Pidge's only normal stab is hyper beam so gotta correct you there. It's not usable outside of work up sets, as otherwise torn-t outclasses it. I do think it is a good stallbreaker and not dead weight vs offense. It is better than doom- 6 higher speed and don't tell me that your doom will have sun support. Not gonna happen. Walled by too much stuff. At least Pidge can hax its way through any "counter". Doom just dies vs mons you said, like AV azu can take a plus two sludge and banded one shots with AJ after rocks. Pidge is way better.

Absol shouldn't be running SD as then I direct you to Weavile. It should be running that special lure set with like Fire Blast and or Ice Beam that actually hits a lot of the meta hard. But C is high enough.

My Nom: Hoopa-Confined is ass, it is only good as a spinblocker and in TR over hoopa-u, but it doesn't even spinblock unless it faces starmie. but then there's this calc:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if you run max hp an analytic pump and a normal one have a chance to two hit ko lol
so yeah it has no real nich outside of tr teams and then 150 sptk is ass because it has basically no ability. I think it belongs in C- alongside Cress and Camel, who are also basically only used on TR teams (although I think the Cress drop was a bit harsh considering it has some use on hyperstall (not CTC hyperstall lol)). What do you guys think?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Wobbuffet C+ -> B- minimum

I honestly have no clue how this thing is C+. I feel as though people undersell it far too often, and that may be a reason for it's low ranking. I've gone over this in other threads, and I've expressed my feelings towards trappers in multiple different areas. Trappers are some of the best support Pokemon in the game. Every single one is ran on a team exclusively to beat out specific key threats, Wobbuffet is no different. With everyone saying Offense is taking off all over again, I honestly have no idea how the ever living hell this thing is C+. Wobbuffet is an absolute terror to offense, getting at least a guaranteed Kill, and in the right hands multiple. With that said, since it is a support Pokemon, it takes out the biggest threat on any offensive team, kills it, encores it, or even tickles it, and leaves way for X mon to set up and sweep or pursuit it, either way, Wobbuffet does its job, and does it well. Wobbuffet just has the absolute best moves it could possibly ask for, bar maybe a few things, like recovery, but other than that, it is absolutely perfect for taking out Pokemon that otherwise really threaten your team. With offense on the rise, I just cannot possibly see Wobbuffet in C+, and therefore, should move to B- at minimum.

EDIT: This is a hard case to argue since you can't really compare it to other Pokemon in either C+ or B- but if you honestly don't believe Wobbuffet fits in a rank with Mandibuzz, Sylveon and Chesnaught, then I've got to question a few things. Honestly, I feel it should be higher than B-, but I don't want to over shoot it too soon.

 

[Scaler]

Agree with the Wobbuffet rise. Whilst it is fairly matchup dependant it's very dangerous in the right hands and if played right basically guarantees taking out a key threat or 2. I wouldn't compare it to Sylveon though. Sylveon is B- for its Specs Set so it fills a completely different purpose.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Entei: C ---> C+

Entei is very hard to switch into because he boasts an incredible move, Sacred Fire, which even Hippowdon and Garchomp struggle to switch into as they hate losing 12% per turn. This means he is one of the best counters to Clefable in the game, as he can 2HKO it with Sacred Fire and doesn't care about anything but Thunder Wave, and tbh, paralysis is probably the status condition Entei hates the least. He can also act as a decent revenge killer with access to ExtremeSpeed, which is strong enough to clean at late-game, and can defeat Zard X and Talonflame with Stone Edge. Even Heatran is not safe as it dies to bulldoze. His bulk is not to underestimate either, boasting 115/85/75 defenses which is honestly fucking good (better than zard X!!!) and thus is able to tank some attacks such as hippo/tankchomp's EQ and Hoopa-U's HSpace Fury.

All this means that Entei is better imo than mons such as Shuckle and Dugtrio, and having it placed along Staraptor would be much more fitting.

My Nom: Hoopa-Confined is ass, it is only good as a spinblocker and in TR over hoopa-u, but it doesn't even spinblock unless it faces starmie. but then there's this calc:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if you run max hp an analytic pump and a normal one have a chance to two hit ko lol
so yeah it has no real nich outside of tr teams and then 150 sptk is ass because it has basically no ability. I think it belongs in C- alongside Cress and Camel, who are also basically only used on TR teams (although I think the Cress drop was a bit harsh considering it has some use on hyperstall (not CTC hyperstall lol)). What do you guys think?

Umm... no offense, but if even 150 SpA is ass... especially considering you can run Modest and Hoopa-C is not a mega... idk what to say lol. That would mean 170 SpA is subpar. Also, Keldeo has 129 SpA and basically no ability either.

 

[Martin]

Umm... no offense, but if even 150 SpA is ass... especially considering you can run Modest and Hoopa-C is not a mega... idk what to say lol. That would mean 170 SpA is subpar. Also, Keldeo has 129 SpA and basically no ability either.

I think that the key problem with Hoopa is that the Hoopa forms are psuedo megas in that using Hoopa-C means that you can't use Hoopa-U and vice versa. I personally don't think Hoopa-C is bad, but it is heavily overshadowed by Hoopa-U other ghosts such as Gengar. Honestly, I think that Hoopa-C works best on balanced spikes stacking teams paired alongside Bisharp and either a: something that has the bulk to set up Dual Screens repeatedly throughout the match, such as the ex-E rank Uxie, and/or b: Trick Room/Tailwind support from something like Cress or Talonflame/Whimsicott. This is because Bisharp+Hoopa-C create a pretty deadly hazard-protecting core, with Bisharp not only taking Ghost- and Dark-type hits (barring Pursuit) which obliterate Hoopa-C while the latter takes Fighting-type hits for Bisharp, but also with the two covering a lot of what the other can't beat - forming a ghost+psychic+dark core in two 'mons, and the Dual Screens support allows it to come in on spinners with more ease while Tailwind/TR support patches up its shitty speed stat. In all honesty though, Hoopa-C has less incentive for its use (with "incentive" being how Agent Gibbs so aptly corrected people stating that Mega Latios has more opportunity cost than other megas eighteen pages ago) than most of the rest metagame, with its incentive for use being about on-par with Mega Latios. However, the fact that it is so scary on certain team archetypes really shows this issue isn't enough for it to be pushed off of the rankings. Unless I'm mistaken, Mega Latios was in B- (the same rank as Hoopa-C is in atm) at the start of ORAS. However, it moved down due to how little incentive you have to use it over Latios.

I feel that, wherever Mega Latios is placed, Hoopa-C should always be one sub-rank below it (without going below D if Mega Latios ever moves to said level) as, if you compare their overall effectiveness in a hypothetical scenario where opportunity cost and incentive don't exist, Mega Latios is more effective due to it being mostly self-sufficient due to is existent physical bulk, "neutrality" to Knock Off, stellar typing and good speed, while Hoopa-C needs a specific archetype and support in order to function effectively due to its shitty defensive typing outside of blocking spin, mediocre physical bulk and mediocre speed. Really, its only redeeming features in direct comparison are its significantly greater power and ability to hold an item. As Mega Latios is currently in C, I'm going to say:

Hoopa-C: B- --> C-.

 

[bludz]

Mega Latios is a pretty weak comparison unless you're talking about things that are totally outclassed. As a standalone pokemon Mega Latios is probably like A rank lol but its just so incredibly outclassed by all other forms of regular Latios. Now granted Hoopa-C is kind of outclassed by Hoopa-U, but not entirely. For one thing they aren't nearly exactly the same pokemon (in Lati's case), since Hoopa-C has a different typing which actually makes it a solid Keldeo check (though another Keldeo check weak to pursuit lol) and a spinblocker against defensive Starmie which can't touch it outside of burns. It can also set up Substitutes on Chansey reliably and just in general Ghost is an even better offensive type than Dark just because it literally has 1 resistance and its 1 immunity is rare but still bopped easily (Chansey gets subbed on, Lopunny can't take Psychic STAB whatsoever).

This is not to say that Hoopa-C should not potentially move down - I mean Unbound is certainly a lot better - but it is not outclassed fully in the same way because it actually can play a different role than Hoopa-U whereas Mega Latios isn't doing anything regular Latios couldn't do better, even Dragon Dance.

 

[MetaNite]

I used Mega Absol a decent amount recently and it is a lot weaker than I was hoping it would be. That being said it still has some cool niches that I think merit it rising. Magic Bounce let's it not care much about Mega Sableye, even posing as a counter. Magic Bounce also let's Absol counter stallbreaker Mew pretty well, and it isn't even a Fire-type.

Sucker Punch is an easy boon that everyone knows about; most obvious advantage over Weavile.

Another useful move on Mega Absol is Baton Pass, which I found many people were not expecting. I often used it early to weed out Absol's counters and mega evolve, then later in the game SD on the switch and now you have the option of Baton Passing or attacking against a slower counter. A load of common mons counter Absol (Hippo, MScizor, Clefable); Baton Pass allows you to set up a sweep for a Pokemon waiting in the wings. I paired Mega Absol with Taunt Talonflame or Taunt Gyarados (cool thing is, Hippo usually doesnt think to Roar you and Clef doesnt think to Twave cause of Magic Bounce).

Once that sweeper is stopped, which it often is, you have hopefully removed or weakened Absol's immediate counters.

 

[AM]

Yeah bludz asked my opinion on the Mega Houndoom and Mega Pidgeot thing yesterday on PS and I agree. I'm more inclined to see Mega Pidgeot rise and Mega Houndoom drop honestly but the only thing holding it back, with a small discussion I saw with trc in it, as if Mega Pidgeot surpasses the utility of the other C+ mons as a whole. After extended use of both of them I'd like to think so but I'm not feeling too strongly about it other than the fact Mega Houndoom one subrank higher than Mega Pidgeot is a travesty. If necessary I can explain but I think most people know I'm not a fan of Mega Houndoom and while it was sort of this running joke between people and B- was fine at one point, it isn't now.

Bronzong I believe is very mediocre in this meta and doesn't provide or excel at anything well these days. It had a lot of emphasis when Mega Altaria was on a bunch of teams until people remembered Char-X is a monster and now it kind of just keels over to a lot of stuff in the meta-game, necessitating a good amount of threat control and team support to consistently function. The only thing I guess you can say is that it's an ok check to Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Altaria, and a couple of dangerous threats that Jirachi doesn't necessarily handle well due to lack of levitate. Seems like it has got worse but again no strong opinion for that one other than what was just stated.

Thundurus-T was mentioned by Finch a few posts back and while his argument had some merit I don't really think it should rise. I think the idea of it rising comes from it being utilized really well, like I've seen FLCL use it a ton on his OLT ladder run. The issue is I also believe being weak to Thundy-T is coming from people building these electric weak teams that I see a lot right now which I don't quite understand and I feel it skews its effectiveness for the better. Stuff dropping from B- and perhaps C+ makes more sense to me than raising Thundurus-T. At least to myself right now.

I think Wobb is lame and I think Gothitelle and that should be in the same rank. Not gonna really elaborate more than that cause Gothitelle isn't a discussion point and it's just food for thought in the mean time.

Entei could probably rise, it's actually a pretty solid mon from my experience and its abilities exceed a lot of the C stuff and arguably the C+ mons.

Heatran being on like half the teams I see and being everywhere along with ScarfTar, Raikou, Char-X and all of those suggest that Dugtrio is more or less better now and eliminating Heatran who provides so much role compression for teams now with a single trap is godly for stuff like Char-X and Volcarona.

I'll elaborate on more later maybe.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I think Wobb is lame and I think Gothitelle and that should be in the same rank. Not gonna really elaborate more than that cause Gothitelle isn't a discussion point and it's just food for thought in the mean time.

To be quite frank, B was more so what I wanted to nominate it for. It's an amazing Pokemon and although yes, it's very situation reliant, it will still do its job as long as the user isn't completely incompetent. I'll refrain from going into my Trapping spiel that I'm sure most people here know by now, but Wobbuffet is absolutely spectacular in trapping, killing, and over all removing troublesome Pokemon. It's guaranteed, and I can honestly say, only 3 other Pokemon can do that, all of which trap specific Pokemon and specific types, but fail to do other things, where as Wobbuffet traps anything that isn't a ghost (all two of them), meaning it's killing 99% of the meta when it wants, or giving its team mates free set up and possibly netting a win. It brushes damage off thanks to its absolutely massive HP stat, and abuses the ever living shit out the 5 moves it is capable of learning. I'd be more pleased with a move up to B, as it seems more fitting, but, as I stated previously, I don't want to over shoot it.

Also, Wobb is not lame. :]

 

[Martin]

Mega Latios is a pretty weak comparison unless you're talking about things that are totally outclassed. As a standalone pokemon Mega Latios is probably like A rank lol but its just so incredibly outclassed by all other forms of regular Latios. Now granted Hoopa-C is kind of outclassed by Hoopa-U, but not entirely. For one thing they aren't nearly exactly the same pokemon (in Lati's case), since Hoopa-C has a different typing which actually makes it a solid Keldeo check (though another Keldeo check weak to pursuit lol) and a spinblocker against defensive Starmie which can't touch it outside of burns. It can also set up Substitutes on Chansey reliably and just in general Ghost is an even better offensive type than Dark just because it literally has 1 resistance and its 1 immunity is rare but still bopped easily (Chansey gets subbed on, Lopunny can't take Psychic STAB whatsoever).

This is not to say that Hoopa-C should not potentially move down - I mean Unbound is certainly a lot better - but it is not outclassed fully in the same way because it actually can play a different role than Hoopa-U whereas Mega Latios isn't doing anything regular Latios couldn't do better, even Dragon Dance.

Just out of interest, where would you put it? I completely forgot defensive starmie existed lol XD I kept forgetting that offensive wasn't its best set (I've been playing BW2 OU on the ladder a lot in the past few days so I've gotten used to seeing offensive on, like, 9/10 starmies). Hoopa-U is a good spinblocker, and it is part of why it pairs so well with Bisharp: they stop hazard removal cold. I think that the Starmie thing kinda clouded my judgement if I'm completely honest. In hindsight, I think either C or C+ (C+ lean) is a better fit for it than C-, so I'm changing my opinion to:

Hoopa-C B- --> C+

So that this isn't a pointless post, I'm gonna talk about a few 'mons.

With Wobbuffet v.s. Gothitelle, I disagree with AM that the two should be on the same rank. I feel that Wobbuffet has the potential to be one subrank higher than Gothitelle due to the fact that it has so much more utility on offense with both its Sitrus and Custap sets than Gothitelle has on any one playstyle with its Scarf set (I would bring up Specs, but that is literal trash). Whether Wobb ends up one sub-rank above Gothitelle or not, Goth needs to drop. I may have a slight bias as I personally think that Gothitelle is complete trash, but I'm going to try and set my bias aside for this. Wobbuffet's access to moves such as Encore, Destiny Bond, Tickle and Safeguard in conjunction give it lots of utility before consideration of Countercoat and Shadow Tag. As a trapper, Wobbuffet is great utility to offense due to its ability to come in and shut down the key threats to your team. However, this is not something Gothitelle can do. In my personal experience, I have the most success using Gothitelle on semi-stall and balance. This is because it traps and removes select threats to said playstyles with coverage options like Energy Ball/Thunderbolt and HP Fire, and said teams benefit much more from the offensive presence than from Wobbuffet's utility options. However, in its current state, the metagame is more friendly to Wobbuffet, who not only thrives on offense, but also against it - where it can deal a lot of damage with the combination of CounterCoat and Destiny Bond, as well as turn setup 'mons into setup fodder with (possibly Custap) Encore or providing free turns to its teammates v.s. tanks by using Tickle a few times and turning them into setup fodder for one of Wobbuffet's teammates. Its disappointing that it can't carry all of CounterCoat, Encore, Destiny Bond, Tickle and Safeguard on one moveset, but really your choice between Destiny Bond, Tickle and Safeguard is about as influential as your choice between Dark Pulse, Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire was on Greninja: it comes down to the teams needs (D-Bond if offense is an issue, Tickle if balance is an issue, Safeguard if stall is an issue), meaning it doesn't have any major effect on Wobb's effectiveness. The main problem with Gothitelle compared to Wobbuffet is that it doesn't really have the options to take on offense (the dominant set of playstyles atm) that Wobbuffet does once its tricked its scarf to something, and that is huge when you realise that, while it dumps on certain teams, it falls flat v.s. the dominant playstyle - leaving you in a position where you effectively have 5-and-a-bit pokemon in certain matchups. As Of Moose & Men said, Wobbuffet is almost guaranteed to have utility in the vast majority of matches it is in (provided that someone with a brain is using it) due to the sheer utility of its status moves in conjunction with Shadow Tag and the sheer power of countercoat. This is most certainly not a trait of Gothitelle, and that is why it should be below Wobbuffet. While it is debatable as to whether Wobb should move up (I personally think its consistent enough to warrant B-), Gothitelle should definitely move down. Therefore, I'm going to say:

Wobbuffet C+ --> B-
Gothitelle B --> C+

Speaking of Trappers, I agree with AM on Dugtrio. Its not very hard to pair it with teammates which can lure Heatran and pop its potential balloon (namely U-Turn Scizor), but with Heatran being on so many teams nowadays simply because it is so freaking versatile, the ability to reliably trap and kill it is huge. Dugtrio needs some support to function (namely VoltTurn support to get it in safely), it is certainly consistent and self-sufficient enough to rise. All in all, I feel it is about as consistent as Wobbuffet with a smaller pool of what are overall a more notable set of specific traps that it can fulfil consistently (Heatran, Magnets, Scarftar etc.). This, I feel, puts the two on the same level. Kinda thematic, but this thing is another great partner for Hoopa-C due to its ability to reliably trap Tyranitar - one of the premier pursuit trappers. Therefore:

Dugtrio C --> B-

 

[Srn]

I used Mega Absol a decent amount recently and it is a lot weaker than I was hoping it would be. That being said it still has some cool niches that I think merit it rising. Magic Bounce let's it not care much about Mega Sableye, even posing as a counter. Magic Bounce also let's Absol counter stallbreaker Mew pretty well, and it isn't even a Fire-type.

Sucker Punch is an easy boon that everyone knows about; most obvious advantage over Weavile.

Another useful move on Mega Absol is Baton Pass, which I found many people were not expecting. I often used it early to weed out Absol's counters and mega evolve, then later in the game SD on the switch and now you have the option of Baton Passing or attacking against a slower counter. A load of common mons counter Absol (Hippo, MScizor, Clefable); Baton Pass allows you to set up a sweep for a Pokemon waiting in the wings. I paired Mega Absol with Taunt Talonflame or Taunt Gyarados (cool thing is, Hippo usually doesnt think to Roar you and Clef doesnt think to Twave cause of Magic Bounce).

Once that sweeper is stopped, which it often is, you have hopefully removed or weakened Absol's immediate counters.

Somebody once told me that mega absol was a cool check to sab too
but then i remembered:
0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 131-154 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO

baton pass is definitely cool though i can't deny that. But its really frail and really slow before mega, and the base power of its moves aren't amazing either. It should stay where it is.