Unpopular opinions

[Pikachu315111]

But that in itself makes the whole badge thing feel really unnecessary, just put in because the games have always had badges before. Especially considering in BW HMs are essentially optional and so the former mechanism of "can't swim to the island until you have the right badge" (which in itself has little in-universe justification) doesn't apply.

Well at this point its tradition, an excuse plot at worst but the thing is that it works to give the player a goal to begin their journey and eventually get involved with the plot. Sure there's completing the Pokedex by the regional professor but that goal will quickly become tedious and leave you wondering "well what do I do with these creatures once I capture them"? Having the Pokemon League gives something the player to give them motivation to play through the game as it's a way for them to prove themselves (at least within the game) and give becoming a Pokemon trainer a purpose. It also helps show how the player (or rather their Pokemon) is getting stronger and better prepared, something which would help them in the plot to battle against the villain team.

 

[Yveltal]

I dislike the PTCGO. When they first started that server, it took just as much money as it did irl to get any good cards. I kind of wish they would just release a game for the DS as a follow-up to the original GB tcg game(s) with all the current tournament-official cards.

 

[Caramel Prisoner]

Between the quick-select registered menu from BW and the quick-select slots in XY, I like the latter better. BW had a method of avoiding the bag in part by opening up the ability to register as many key items as you want, but there wasn't much need for it unless you just had to flip between your bike and the town map as much as possible, since you couldn't really do any fishing in Unova until postgame, and there weren't many other key items that would see regular use. I think the focus they added to multiple quick-select items by giving you four slots in XY was a brilliant idea.

I'd take BW's ability to register your medicine bag and Pokemon party over XY's quick select any day.

 

[Yveltal]

I'd take BW's ability to register your medicine bag and Pokemon party over XY's quick select any day.

but you already have a touch screen for that!!

 

[Norne]

but you already have a touch screen for that!!

Some of us don't like to hold a pen as we play or bash a touch screen like a conditioned ape XD.

 

[brightobject]

I don't like the idea of Gym Leaders or even a Pokemon League. The system is convoluted and should be done away with if GF ever wants the games to being to improve plotwise (which I know they don't particularly care about but). I'd say the Elite Four can still work on its own, as ultra-elite trainers who help govern the entire region. The idea of Gym Leaders and the forced linearity it creates seems rather lazy when there are so many other things you could have the main character be doing. If anything they should just have the Gym Leaders stay and just be the Mayor or whatever.

^Badly worded, I'm sure if anyone wants to discuss I'll be able to hash out my ideas better.

 

[jordanthejq12]

I don't like the idea of Gym Leaders or even a Pokemon League. The system is convoluted and should be done away with if GF ever wants the games to being to improve plotwise (which I know they don't particularly care about but). I'd say the Elite Four can still work on its own, as ultra-elite trainers who help govern the entire region. The idea of Gym Leaders and the forced linearity it creates seems rather lazy when there are so many other things you could have the main character be doing. If anything they should just have the Gym Leaders stay and just be the Mayor or whatever.

^Badly worded, I'm sure if anyone wants to discuss I'll be able to hash out my ideas better.

That's actually been a focal point of discussion for the last two-three pages. Main points:

• Pokemon is a JRPG, and any alteration of the main formula is not likely to be popular with the Japanese, the games' primary market.
• Pokemon is a game primarily intended for school-age children, who need a linear structure to get and stay hooked.
• Not enough linearity in general can be just as bad as too much linearity, particularly given how Pokemon is structured (see: Kanto in the Johto games, especially HGSS).

In a way, the Gym system is a necessary evil. If nothing else, six generations worth of massive sales at home and abroad have basically locked GameFreak into this formula. There's plenty of room in sidegames for subverting or ignoring the traditional formula--but at the end of the day, this is what makes them money and us happy (or at least content with our lot).

 

[noobcubed]

Pokemon is a JRPG, and any alteration of the main formula is not likely to be popular with the Japanese, the games' primary market.

Well, Final Fantasy seems to retain popularity in Japan despite being notorious for throwing the baby out with the bathwater with every new instalment.

Pokemon is a game primarily intended for school-age children, who need a linear structure to get and stay hooked.

I hear Minecraft's pretty popular among kids, and that's about as open-ended as you can get.

It seems a lot of arguments being made here boil down to, "It has to be this way because it's always been this way". That's always a dangerous way of thinking.

 

[Lady Gaga]

I dislike the PTCGO. When they first started that server, it took just as much money as it did irl to get any good cards. I kind of wish they would just release a game for the DS as a follow-up to the original GB tcg game(s) with all the current tournament-official cards.

Buy low, sell high. that's what i did to getting 3 UR Ultra Balls and many FA EX's including several overpowered FA Shaymin-EX from roaring skies. if you keep putting out terrible trades, some idiot (remember, pokemon is a kids game) will eventually accept your trade! also, i've spent 0 dollars on IRL packs or codes.

 

[TrainerSplash]

Well, Final Fantasy seems to retain popularity in Japan despite being notorious for throwing the baby out with the bathwater with every new instalment.



I hear Minecraft's pretty popular among kids, and that's about as open-ended as you can get.

It seems a lot of arguments being made here boil down to, "It has to be this way because it's always been this way". That's always a dangerous way of thinking.

Pokemon is directed for kids, but mineceaft usually attracts 5-7 year olds while it seems that Pokemon attracts 7-15 year olds. Let's keep in mind that "Rated E" doesn't means "Rated for little kids" which one of the few things that get on my nerves when people judge a game. However pokemon also likes to direct their audience to older fans, the whole competitive scene, the symphony and worlds seem to all be directed towards the larger age groups.

 

[pika pal]

Well, Final Fantasy seems to retain popularity in Japan despite being notorious for throwing the baby out with the bathwater with every new instalment.

The first FF game to really throw a radical change into the gameplay style was either 8 or 10, the latter it seems being the last one I hear talked about as a mainstream popular game. Also, Final Fantasy has dozens of games and spin-offs as well, so seeing changes take place was inevitable. And even if the games sold well, there's no denying that there were a lot of rough patches with the game design in the PS2 era onward: FFXII was a huge open world game, then XIII became ridiculously linear and narrative focused, and both games were among the most radical departures from the turn-based systems the previous main games and even some spin-offs used for their battle system. While 12 and 13 all have their fans, it's rare to find even fans of the game that won't have some kind of complaint about the design: one big let's player I know even says that while he likes the game, he can't recommend it because the issues he personally takes with it are objective design issues that might bother others more than him.

Pokemon is obviously having trouble with the opposite trap, potential stagnation, but I think the main reason we're calling it out in this case is because Gen 5 showed they CAN do something to mix things up, but then returned to something "safe" to get the 3DS some momentum and get a feel for the jump to 3D main series games, and even then there are hiccups (blandest cast in a while, the engine is poorly optimized for battle, and while the model QUALITY is good, the designs in many cases leave something to be desired).

One idea that does interest me that Pokemon could do (and indeed was a subject of half-joking comparison) is what Fire Emblem Fates is doing: One version is for "traditional" players and the other is where they try to change things a bit more from the norm. While I take issue with it in FE: Fates case because that game is mainly doing that for story purposes rather than gameplay changes, I could see that working for Pokemon. One version has the traditional "become the champion" focus for the plot, the other could, for example, focus more on your player fighting the crime syndicate for the narrative, because it's not like the player character in the main games logically could interfere in every single one of their schemes while on their journey.

Both games would likely include the same elements in regards to the Gyms, but in the latter version, maybe the Gyms could be more of a sidequest as could the "Rockets" in the former: one issue I take with Pokemon's narrative in most games is that the Team is always stopped at the 80% mark as the climax, and that makes the Elite 4 feel more like a formality after. Gen 1 did a bit better about it by having Giovanni as the last Gym Leader, tying the end of both plots together a bit better, but every other game either the team was such a non-threat/presence that their plot felt pointless (Gen 2), or the legendary battle was the obvious climax of the main story and the last gyms felt kind of meh. Only exception is Gen 5 where the team and the gym plots were melded more, and even then imperfectly.

 

[Millky95]

The first FF game to really throw a radical change into the gameplay style was either 8 or 10, the latter it seems being the last one I hear talked about as a mainstream popular game. Also, Final Fantasy has dozens of games and spin-offs as well, so seeing changes take place was inevitable. And even if the games sold well, there's no denying that there were a lot of rough patches with the game design in the PS2 era onward: FFXII was a huge open world game, then XIII became ridiculously linear and narrative focused, and both games were among the most radical departures from the turn-based systems the previous main games and even some spin-offs used for their battle system. While 12 and 13 all have their fans, it's rare to find even fans of the game that won't have some kind of complaint about the design: one big let's player I know even says that while he likes the game, he can't recommend it because the issues he personally takes with it are objective design issues that might bother others more than him.

Pokemon is obviously having trouble with the opposite trap, potential stagnation, but I think the main reason we're calling it out in this case is because Gen 5 showed they CAN do something to mix things up, but then returned to something "safe" to get the 3DS some momentum and get a feel for the jump to 3D main series games, and even then there are hiccups (blandest cast in a while, the engine is poorly optimized for battle, and while the model QUALITY is good, the designs in many cases leave something to be desired).

One idea that does interest me that Pokemon could do (and indeed was a subject of half-joking comparison) is what Fire Emblem Fates is doing: One version is for "traditional" players and the other is where they try to change things a bit more from the norm. While I take issue with it in FE: Fates case because that game is mainly doing that for story purposes rather than gameplay changes, I could see that working for Pokemon. One version has the traditional "become the champion" focus for the plot, the other could, for example, focus more on your player fighting the crime syndicate for the narrative, because it's not like the player character in the main games logically could interfere in every single one of their schemes while on their journey.

Both games would likely include the same elements in regards to the Gyms, but in the latter version, maybe the Gyms could be more of a sidequest as could the "Rockets" in the former: one issue I take with Pokemon's narrative in most games is that the Team is always stopped at the 80% mark as the climax, and that makes the Elite 4 feel more like a formality after. Gen 1 did a bit better about it by having Giovanni as the last Gym Leader, tying the end of both plots together a bit better, but every other game either the team was such a non-threat/presence that their plot felt pointless (Gen 2), or the legendary battle was the obvious climax of the main story and the last gyms felt kind of meh. Only exception is Gen 5 where the team and the gym plots were melded more, and even then imperfectly.

I think Gen 1 was done best with the rival being the true climax and the true main storyline. You meet him at the start and is the first battle you have, he constantly tries to one up you and appearing in some of the most random moments. If you fight him in Lavender Town before going to Celedon City you have fought him 5 times whilst running into Team Rocket twice. You get some overlap between the two plots in Safron City which is cool.

When you get the Giovanni twist and you think all that is left is the E4, you go towards Victory Road only to fight him again. In Victory Road people are telling you about this other tough who already beat them. You finally beat the E4, you think you are champion (and I think this is the only game not to mention having a champion) only have to face your rival one last time.

No other Pokemon game (maybe BW but I just hated them, couldnt get into them at all) has had good, strong finish like that. You could argue for GSC/HGSS with Red but Kanto feels like a bonus

 

[Pikachu315111]

Having given some more thought about the discussion going on concerning the narrative, I think the problem is not with them having two storylines going on (becoming the Champion and stopping the villain team) but rather how far they try going with them. Short answer, not that far. Long answer, the Champion storyline is about the same in each game and with many villains teams you meet them a handful of times with a few being "big" moment (which includes the climax at the end). Instead of fleshing out each story' aspect (or one if they only have time for one), they decide to do 50/50 making both feel they're lacking some deeper depth. Pretty much you're not allowed to "explore" either story, most of the time the set pieces and cutscenes are what you're only given. All the additional lore they could put into the storylines are usually used to expand the surrounding world, giving you a wide world to explore with lore within it. But this is at the cost of many times making the Gym Leaders just bosses who stay in their Gym at best and cardboard cutouts at worst. Villains need to have compelling motivations otherwise they feel like mustache twirling villains or purposely insane. Now in some recent stories you see them trying to expand past this, Gen V I felt came close to fleshing out its villains for the most part by not only having you encounter them all over the place but also allowed to you explore backstory and motivation. For the most part the Gym Leaders weren't just bosses but we saw them do things and also you could concur additional information about them such like many having a second job aside from being Gym Leader. It's not perfect, but it feels more than they had done in previous generations. Gen II also focused on the villains, exploring a bit on how Team Rocket members react to their organization falling apart though the Gym Leaders suffered from just being bosses. Now games may provide additional information on the League (mostly Gym Leader and Champion, sadly Elite Four often times get ignored and treated as bosses) and villain teams but they feel like they're just part of the overworld lore. And not only is it a bit more of a challenge to all that additional detail, its a bit more difficult to make it not feel forced or required.

 

[stage7_4]

To support Pikachu315111's opinion, story-wise Pokemon needs to go big or go home, and my frustrations with story in pokemon games are usually that they tried to add a little more when they really needed a LOT more.

Well, that's not exactly true. It's more that there's two competing methods of storytelling in Pokemon: Experience Driven vs. Character Driven

Experience driven story is when a story is split into breadcrumbs and the player puts it together as they go along. It's slower, mainly because the pace is decided by the player himself, and is a bit hard to design since it depends on getting the player to notice clues with 100% certainty. But it feels more engaging because it gives the illusion of mystery solving and exploration, you are creating a story from the pieces you pick up. Examples are N's room, Sea Mauvile, even little things like Gary/Blue's missing Raticate in Lavender Tower. Unfortunately, these stories tend to lack stakes, scale, or strong characters since so much of it relies on player interaction, and said elements tend to clash with the appealing parts of an experience story.

Character Driven is what it sounds, driven by strong plotted characters. They're entertaining, cunning, funny, dramatic, they're a cornucopia of love. But since the focus shifted from you, the player, to them, the pace is utterly dependent on these characters. So you tend to get strung along, railroaded, and feel your player choices don't matter. And that's not bad, not necessarily, because it allows for these entertaining characters to tell their story. They're your N's, Cyrus, Lance, AZ, and Lysandre's.

Well, that's where we hit the gray area, since (in my opinion) they aren't all that fleshed out to justify the plot railroading. They have potential, and they certainly tried their best in B/W, but eh.

So my feelings for Black/White don't mean I never want a plot heavy Pokemon game, in fact I just want them to try harder next time. Or restructure and go back to experience focus.

A last thought is that Experience and Character stories don't have to be opposing forces, but it certainly takes more skill to keep the balance up.

 

[brightobject]

Honestly I'd be satisifed if they had anime cutscenes made by Gainax with some super badass stuff going down in the desert or space or antarctica and there were armies of mechs and legendaries and explosions involved

 

[stage7_4]

Honestly I'd be satisifed if they had anime cutscenes made by Gainax with some super badass stuff going down in the desert or space or antarctica and there were armies of mechs and legendaries and explosions involved

That would lean more character driven (or spectacle driven, which is an entirely different can of worms). Which could work, it's more how it's done rather than what it is.

Most "video games as art" critics shun look down upon increasing character narratives or anything that detracts from an experience driven story because since experience driven story is what is wholly unique to video games, no other medium has that interaction (save reality but reality doesn't have pokemon). So any squandering of it is seen as wasted potential.

It's basically video game "Show, don't tell," now "Play, don't show, don't tell." Why present your story like a book or movie, when a book or movie could do just that. Why not engage the player? It's one of the reasons some people call visual novels (Phoenix Wright, Danganronpa) a medium separate from video games.

Not saying I agree with this notion, or at least not as an absolutism, but it is something to think about.

 

[Norne]

Honestly I'd be satisifed if they had anime cutscenes made by Gainax with some super badass stuff going down in the desert or space or antarctica and there were armies of mechs and legendaries and explosions involved

I'm actually a demon, kills the main character the end, Gamefreak ruined Xmas.

Seriously what's wrong with the dick Dastardly character archetype, I don't need 12 hours of flashbacks to know this guy is someone I need to stop, that isn't deep that is a creator's pet being forced down your throat.

The less you know about a villain the better, if you spend all the game fighting the dragon and the get into a big fly from outer space so be it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I'm actually a demon, kills the main character the end, Gamefreak ruined Xmas.

Seriously what's wrong with the dick Dastardly character archetype, I don't need 12 hours of flashbacks to know this guy is someone I need to stop, that isn't deep that is a creator's pet being forced down your throat.

The less you know about a villain the better, if you spend all the game fighting the dragon and the get into a big fly from outer space so be it.

I wouldn't say the less you know the better, maybe the subtle you know the better. Let's look at each major villain in the main games, discuss what we know about them, and speculate how we could have found out more about them without a required cutscene:

Villain Psychology 101

Gen I: Giovanni. Giovanni is the head of a crime syndicate similar to that of the Yakuza and Mafia. He steals and exploits Pokemon for profit, influence, and power. He's obsessed with being the strongest, so much so that when he loses against Gen I's protagonist despite throwing everything at him he's overcome with disgrace he disbands Team Rocket, leaves his son, and chooses to spend the next two years isolated.
There are a few major questions here. Why does Giovanni treat Pokemon as property instead of living creatures? Why is he so obsessed with being the strongest; so much so when beaten in a battle he thought he would surely win he disbanded his entire criminal empire? After its disbanded why did he choose to live isolated from the outside world?
I think what would explain a lot of these questions would be how Giovanni came to power. Like maybe have some grunts mention how Giovanni started out, like explaining how he formed Team Rocket or if Team Rocket existed before him and he worked his way to the top. They could have hidden several things in the Rocket Warehouse. Like maybe you could find commands and instructions from Giovanni telling his grunts how they should be treating the Pokemon they're using, have stolen, are exploiting with an explanation why it needs to be done this specific way so they won't mess it up. In Giovanni's room in the Rocket Warehouse maybe have some pprtraits hanging on the wall which can be investigated and tells something about how Giovanni carries himself (maybe even have some portraits showing Silver and go into detail how the two seem to be reacting to one another). You can tell Giovanni's backstory basically from the way he runs Team Rocket instead of Giovanni telling the player directly.

Gen II: The Admins. Though Giovanni disbanded Team Rocket a loyal fragment of it remained and work to get Giovanni to come back to lead Team Rocket. It's the remnants of Team Rocket doing one final push before being beaten by the Gen II protagonist and finally coming to realization that Giovanni isn't coming back; Team Rocket is officially over.
Why such loyalty for Giovanni? Why were they unable to run Team Rocket or create a new criminal organization from the remnants of Team Rocket from scratch? How come being beaten by the Gen II protagonist is the final nail in the coffin, for all they know Giovanni did hear the message and is going to where they are right now (which he was going to do until the Gen II stopped him via time traveling shenanigans; but they didn't know that).
Once again showing Team Rocket operated would have maybe explained things. Like maybe clearly show there's a divide between the Rocket grunts as a subtle way to show that they need one charismatic leader holding them together (probably with an iron first) instead of 4 admins with distinctly different attitudes and ways of going about doing things. Have the grunts mention how they like a certain admin over another, even arguing among themselves. Once again find instructions and commands which shows how confusing things must be as their bosses give them orders that sometimes clash with one another making them not sure what to do and panic. In some of these instructions/commands maybe have an admin saying this is what Giovanni would do, showing how each Admin saw Giovanni and amplified certain parts of his personality and actions they personally related with thus explaining why they think he's great (also telling a little more about themselves) but also showing how Giovanni was able to keep Team Rocket running but not them. While for Giovanni explaining his story could have been done by how he ran Team Rocket, for the admins their backstory would be how they're trying but failing to keep Team Rocket together.

Gen III: Maxie and Archie. Maxie and Archie are eco-terrorists on opposite and opposing ends. Maxie is a highly logical person who wishes to expand the land so that people have more land to use; and somewhere in this equation he figured somehow the Pokemon were going to be the ones most to suffer. Archie is an emotional tough guy who wishes to expand the seas because he believes that the world and Pokemon need a new beginning even if it means human suffer. Depending on what game you play either one or both actually have their plan succeed only to realize their plan was too extreme and causing the end of the world; helping the trainer who was trying to stop them to fix their mistake. After the incident go to making amends as well as figure out what direction to take their organization.
So, how did Maxie and Archie come to the their conclusions? What made Maxie think people needed more land; and how would this negatively impact Pokemon more than humans? What made Archie think the world needed to be reset; and how did he conclude Pokemon would benefit the most from this? What did they think was going to happen; what was the world they were envisioning? After this was over why did they not disband their organization?
Considering you go into their (and their admin's) room in their base (at least in the remakes), including a journal would have pretty much told you most you wanted to at least know their way of thinking (not to mention a batch of other things like maybe they have a book shelf which show what they've been reading). In addition the remakes also added they were Devon Corporation scientists, so maybe you could have gone to Devon Corp HQ and looked up their professional portfolio before they left and see what they were working on and their evaluation reports. We had ways of looking into their private and previous professional lives, that alone could have told us plenty and enough about what makes them tick.

Gen IV: Cyrus. Cyrus is a man who strives away from emotion and wishes to reset the universe so there's no emotion. He's a sociopath who's using his organization as a means to an end, lying to them they'll hold a position of power in his world when in actuality he plans of being the sole ruler while everyone else are emotionless slaves. After his plans fail he chooses to remain in the Distortion World having not given up and would rather live in a dimension where the rules of the universe do not apply and alone. Later we found his grandfather who explains his parents neglected him and he found comfort with machines and electronic devices, deciding emotions were unneeded.
Really there's only one question about Cyrus that needs to be asked: How did he come to the conclusion emotions are unneeded?
I guess just asking Cyrus's grandfather would be the easiest way, but that would just be boring even if they require you to come back to him every day to here more about Cyrus's upbringing. Maybe having Cyrus's house still being in Sunyshore could shed could provide some interesting insight; like the grandfather gives you the keys to the abandoned house and all over are glimpses of Cyrus's childhood. Of course all this would be post game, for stuff during the story maybe have the Commanders slowly figure out that Cyrus's plans may not be what he says they are and have them noting the way he talks and acts and what they take from it. This way some of Cyrus's character is told by how people perceive his direct actions until the post game reveals how his upbringing was like.

Gen V: N, Ghetsis, Colress, and Ghetsis. Oh boy, a triple header! N was a special child with the ability to talk with Pokemon; an ability that made him feared and abandoned by his family. He was found and adopted by Ghetsis who manipulated him into thinking Pokemon were being treated like slaves and should be freed. N truly cares about Pokemon, feeling he relates to them more than people. N was molded into a puppet who would be considered worthy of the Legendary Pokemon's assistance to become Champion and declare all Pokemon free. Of course Ghetsis simply wanted to take over the world and thought the easiest way was by unarming everyone of their Pokemon so only would have Pokemon. However after the BW Gen V protagonist defeats N did Ghetsis go madly insane for his plans being ruined. Ghetsis is defeated and hauled off while N contemplates about his life and purpose before leaving with his dragon to find out.
However 2 years later Ghetsis has gone completely insane and tries taking over by force. To try hiding him being the puppetmaster he assigns a new leader of Team Plasma, Colress. Colress wants to find way to access a Pokemon's true potential, agreeing to become the leader of Team Plasma only so he could do his research without needing to worry about ethics and resources. Colress does not hold any spite and once defeated thoroughly agrees to leave as Ghetsis then takes control. N comes charging in to stop his adoptive father but is unable to. But once again Ghetsis is defeated by another kid, BW2's protagonist, and has gone completely insane going into a vegetable state. Though N has learned much on his journey and is now looking for the BW protagonist wanting to tell him what he has learned. Meanwhile Colress continues his experiments.
Honestly there's not that many major questions to ask since they told us about their lives, at least N's. And Ghetsis is just insane so the only question there is how he became insane though the question could be he was just always like that. Colress you can ask about as he's kind of bland. What about his experiments would require him to agree to run a criminal organization and what does he plan to do once her research is done? But aside from that I feel that at least for N we know a lot about him. I did say Gen V was the most story driven.
N is the perfect example of how you tell about a leader's backstory without directly saying it. Sure Anthea and Concordia drop a bunch of exposition on you and N talks about his past to you plenty of times, but N's Room is just dripping with subtle info about N's personality and mindset. And it gets further expanded upon in BW2 when returning to N's Room tells you how much N has changed, him not even being able to bring himself into the room speaks volumes compared to what we saw in BW. The chatter from the Sages also told us a bit about N and Ghetsis which didn't feel like exposition bombs. Not sure how they could tell you more about Colress, maybe like with ORAS Maxie and Archie you could find records about him and his experiments explaining more about them and why they were taboo. To stick with Ghetsis being an insane sociopath maybe having grunts just talking about all sorts of rumors about him would suffice to show he's an unpredictable man who cares nothing for other's except seemingly N; then maybe in BW2 have grunts talking about his actual cruelty. N is an example of how this could be done (not perfectly, but a good start), Colress would be from information outside of Team Plasma, and Ghetsis would be from rumors and later witnesses of his actions within Team Plasma.

Gen VI: Lysandre. A man who feels like he has a responsibility to Kalos having come from Kalos royalty, Lysandre wants to have the world remain a beautiful place. He created his own company to create technology to help the world and donated as much money as possible to charities. Yet no matter how much money he spent or donated, there were people in the world who were still miserable. He dove deeper into the subject and driven paranoid about limited resources and the increasing growing rate of humans and Pokemon, eventually coming up with an apocalyptic vision of a dying world where only a few people had all the resources and everyone else was suffering. He concluded trying to help everyone was pointless so there was only one definite solution: perform a culling of people he considered "worthy" and commiting genocide of everything else. Multiple times he has the Gen VI protagonist try to stop him, which they do, but he says he's gone too far to quit. When he's finally defeated he fully breaks down and activates the Ultimate Weapon to spare with death/punish with immortality himself and the Gen VI protagonists only to do himself in (or at least we think).
Okay Lysandre, some questions. Did you ever talk to people like, I don't know, your PROFESSOR MENTOR about being unable to help everyone no matter how much you do or spend? And why did you consider trying to prevent your apocalyptic vision from happening pointless and jump to KILL EVERYONE? Why keep offering the Gen VI protagonist the chance of stopping you when after the first time you know you'll change your mind. And what exactly was your standard for someone to be "worthy"; Was millions of Pokedollars the only requirement or was there some additional requirements?
Finding maybe a journal/recordings of Lysandre's research, conclusions, and preparations is probably the only way we'll know what in the WORLD he was thinking. They could maybe even use the Holo Caster play these reports back to you which would be cool and provide even more visual aid as he shows charts and graphs and plans.

Tl;dr: While we don't need to know everything about them, there's a way to provide enough information to make them a compelling figure. If they just told you yeah they would come out maybe a bit less threatening, but have you been required to search for the extra information and piece things together (and have it done well) could make things more engaging. And if you don't want to bother doing that, you don't! You can skip all that if what you care about is the League/Post game stuff. What I was pointing out is that you can add those layers of additional story without needing to take away from the gameplay, rather you can add to it by hiding this information around as a sort of exploration bonus for those who went out of their way.

 

[stage7_4]

Does anybody hold more fondness for the middle-evolution starters than the pre and final forms? They don't seem to be quite as loved since they're so fleeting, transitory.

While I have my exceptions and don't really hate any of the starters (except Pignite, but Emboar saved him), I think Charmeleon, Ivysaur, Croconaw, Combusken, Grovyle, Prinplup, Dewott, Servine, and Braxien are the coolest of their evolutionary lines.

 

[Roseguardin]

Does anybody hold more fondness for the middle-evolution starters than the pre and final forms? They don't seem to be quite as loved since they're so fleeting, transitory.

While I have my exceptions and don't really hate any of the starters (except Pignite, but Emboar saved him), I think Charmeleon, Ivysaur, Croconaw, Combusken, Grovyle, Prinplup, Dewott, Servine, and Braxien are the coolest of their evolutionary lines.

i gotta agree on Grovyle and Dewott here. I'm on the fence on Monferno as well.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Does anybody hold more fondness for the middle-evolution starters than the pre and final forms? They don't seem to be quite as loved since they're so fleeting, transitory.

While I have my exceptions and don't really hate any of the starters (except Pignite, but Emboar saved him), I think Charmeleon, Ivysaur, Croconaw, Combusken, Grovyle, Prinplup, Dewott, Servine, and Braxien are the coolest of their evolutionary lines.

Middle Starters that stand out to me are:

Charmeleon (because of its coloring, kind of wish we could have a Charizard that color)
Wartortle (I think out of all the starters it has the most features which didn't make it onto the final evolution; for Wartortle its the wispy ears and tail)
Grovyle (the long leaf parts make it look even more slicker and I can easily visualize it doing Leaf Blade)

Now not saying the others are bad, I like most of the others even if some needed to grow on me. I'm just saying those 3 stand out the most to me as they don't look like an immediate natural transition between the basic stage and final stage.

And sadly that's probably why they're unjustly ignored. They're not cute like the basic stages or look as powerful/graceful/fully thought out as the final stages. Their job is to link the two stages and sometimes they come out looking like a mix match of sorts. This is why I feel ones like Combusken, Pignite, Dewott, Quilladin, and Braixen look not as good and take a bit to get used to. I understand why they look the way they do, though I think they could have made some slight adjustments to make them mesh together a bit more. The Grass Starters who show the plants on their body growing probably come out looking the best since they're not a mix but rather a progression.

 

[Millky95]

Does anybody hold more fondness for the middle-evolution starters than the pre and final forms? They don't seem to be quite as loved since they're so fleeting, transitory.

While I have my exceptions and don't really hate any of the starters (except Pignite, but Emboar saved him), I think Charmeleon, Ivysaur, Croconaw, Combusken, Grovyle, Prinplup, Dewott, Servine, and Braxien are the coolest of their evolutionary lines.

The main one for me is Grovyle due to a bit of the design and PMD with it's role in that game

 

[Darth Manaphy]

Does anybody hold more fondness for the middle-evolution starters than the pre and final forms? They don't seem to be quite as loved since they're so fleeting, transitory.

While I have my exceptions and don't really hate any of the starters (except Pignite, but Emboar saved him), I think Charmeleon, Ivysaur, Croconaw, Combusken, Grovyle, Prinplup, Dewott, Servine, and Braxien are the coolest of their evolutionary lines.

How can you forget the all around best middle form of them all? WARTORTLE! I've always loved Wartortle over Blastoise because of those ears and tail.

 

[stage7_4]

How can you forget the all around best middle form of them all? WARTORTLE! I've always loved Wartortle over Blastoise because of those ears and tail.

Wartortle is pretty great, just I've always like Blastoise a bit more.

But it's mostly nostalgia for this awesome Yellow sprite

He looks like a linebacker!

 

[Flareon]

Does anybody hold more fondness for the middle-evolution starters than the pre and final forms? They don't seem to be quite as loved since they're so fleeting, transitory.

While I have my exceptions and don't really hate any of the starters (except Pignite, but Emboar saved him), I think Charmeleon, Ivysaur, Croconaw, Combusken, Grovyle, Prinplup, Dewott, Servine, and Braxien are the coolest of their evolutionary lines.

I think they're all pretty nice except for Quilladin. That's the ugliest thing I've ever seen >_>