Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[DoABarrelRoll]

Celebi and shaymin have the same exact coverage except celebi's coverage is better.

I downplayed -2 because there is a difference between -2 and a 20-something percent chance of -2. There is also a difference between -2 and +2, especially when you are dealing with low bp coverage moves off of 100 spatt (ie shaymin is not hard to switch into at all. It's strongest move being a grass type doesn't do any favors).

But, again, shaymin and celebi literally have the same coverage. Serperior's coverage is limited, but it is also much stronger given that it is always going to be coming off of +2 for the most part (and dragon pulse + HP fire or rock really isn't that bad. It is limited to p much the same targets as shaymin).

When you rest, you are forced to give up a turn. You can either switch or completely waste a turn. It is safe for the opp to do anything. When you recover, you can continue to function.

Shaymin isn't blowing anything up with seed flare. It is p much hydro pump off of base 100 attack with way worse coverage lol.

Its onlyonly real niche is taking u-turns better (tho I would argue that just switching to tank chomp is more beneficial). Dark/ghost moves always have a se move along with them (weavile, gengar, hoopa), and celebi can outspeeds and surprise ko bisharp or playa round spunch.

U go "u haven't played a good shaymin" (duh because shaymin is bad), but nobody in the entire thread that has ever proposed shaymin to rise has ever posted any replays of shaymin doing something that celebi or serp could not. ^_^

Also what is your lucky -2 going to do to gengar or talon or char or tornadus or do you see where I'm going with this?

Shaymin gets Air Slash which can allow it to beat Celebi itself, as well as Venu and Volca.

Ummm you do realize Shaymin doesn't need to run Rest? It can very well run an AoA set which is pretty hard to switch into (much harder than you think it is). Seed Flare and Hydro Pump shouldn't be compared lol, SF has higher BP, higher accuracy and a cancerous secondary effect. You can compare it to Scald.

Those dark/ghost mons can't really switch into Shaymin fyi. And I like how you forget about Mega Sableye, which Celebi can't do jack to.

Also what is your lucky -2 going to do to gengar or talon or char or tornadus or do you see where I'm going with this?

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. -2 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 567-671 (157.9 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (btw Talonflame can't OHKO back)
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 294-348 (113.5 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 281-333 (94.6 - 112.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

You know, you don't spam Seed Flare 24/7!!! You can very well predict Gengar switching in and blasting it with Psychic for the OHKO. If Shaymin uses HP Rock, ZardY dies 62.5% of the time and then speed ties. Only Tornadus-T is a hard check to Shaymin, and even then, Hurricane has 70% accuracy.

I don't really care where Shaymin goes now, I supported it to C- a while ago, but now I'm not sure if it should still rise. Yeah it has competition from Celebi and Serp, but it's not 100% outclassed.

 

[AM]

Unranked to C+

There are a bunch of trap-based Umbreon stalls on the upper echelons of the ladder, and I've been using it in a traditional semistall with some success. It's just really good, easily on par or better than everything in C+.

First of all, Synchronise + Heal Bell is an amazing combination. Umbreon can switch regularly into Scalds and status in general, similarly to Mew, but with better bulk, typing, and the ability to cure itself. Because of this, Umbreon is actually a massive pain to M-Sableye - the utility version can't spam Will-o-wisp freely, and can't touch Umbreon outside of Knock Off, whereas the CM version again doesn't want to burn it and manages a maximum of 26% with a +6 Shadow Ball.

Wish + slow Baton Pass is also a strong niche, although Umbreon has to go without Protect to use it. Outside of these things, Umbreon is just a good special wall. 95/110/130 is great, and thanks to its typing and Foul Play, Umbreon also makes one of the best checks to LO Hoopa.

Shaymin to C

Both sides of this argument are kinda overstating their cases. Shaymin has a very small niche in that it's a moderately fast, bulky Grass type with some offensive presence. Access to Earth Power is huge for it, and even though U-turn isn't that big atm, its lack of a Dark or Ghost weakness is enough to differentiate itself from Celebi. Seed Flare definitely isn't that much of a plus, though, mainly because of the low PP. I think C is the right place for it.



Yes, but Shaymin forces these Pokemon to use a less useful coverage move, thus making it easier for a teammate to switch in. Hoopa doesn't want to be hitting Gunk Shot instead of Dark Pulse, for instance, and its easier to switch into Weavile's Icicle Crash than its Knock Off. You omitted Bisharp, but Shaymin is clearly better against it. Not to mention that Pursuit is still big in this meta.

dont really care about shaymins placement (i think its fine where it is at) but do you have any replays of umbreon or something like a build to go off of. I'm interested :0

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Speaking of on-paper, you did a terrible job of coming up with real scenarios. Air slash covers bug types except steel-bugs? What bug types would those be in ou, exactly?
It covers grass types, sure, but psychic covers breloom/venusaur/fighting types harder, and those are the more relevant ones. What is air slash actually se against? Serperior and celebi? Meh. Shaymin doesn't have a ton of business staying in on either (and vice a versa).

252 SpA Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 412-488 (157.8 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 248-292 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 372-438 (142.5 - 167.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hmm...seems to me that Air Slash covers Breloom harder, and that's a relevant one.

Air Slash hits most of the same Pokemon that Psychic does, so let's see which ones they are:

Hide

Keldeo
Yoga Porn Bunny
Venusaur
Breloom
Heracross
Beedrill
Hawlucha
Chesnaught
Scoliopede (why is this not lower than B?)
Amoonguss
Toxicroak
Conkeldurr
Infernape
Roserade
Emboar
Meinshao
That bizarre other Meloetta forme

Okay, decent little list. Now let's do Phase 2. Psychic hits some for Super-Effective damage that Air Slash does not, as well as hits Pokemon Air Slash doesn't hit effectively against. Let's see what they are:

Hide

Gengar
Rotom-W (which doesn't matter anyways, since Seed Flare)
Dragalge
Kabutops (again, doesn't matter)
Terrakion
Lord Helix (he was born to dance)
Tentacruel
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Rhyperior (which doesn't matter anyways, since Seed Flare)
Crobat

What about the opposite? What about Air Slash hitting what Psychic doesn't (includes what Psychic isn't effective against and Air Slash is neutral against at the same time)?

Hide

Hoopa
Ferrothorn
Latios
Sableye
Scizor
Weavile
Gardevoir
Mega Shrimp Dragon
Latias
Celebi
Medicham
Pinsir
Serperior
Volcarona
Gallade
Victini
Hydreigon
Sceptile
Sharpedo
Crawdaunt
Wobbuffet
Gourgeist
Whimsicott
Shaymin
Shedinja

Everything else gets hit neutrally on both or resists both or really just doesn't matter anyways in the end.

So what move hits more Pokemon better than the other?
Psychic: 25
Air Slash: 28

Pretty close, so after considering the neutrals, Psychic overall is typically a better choice unless you REALLY want to hit opposing Grass-Types harder. However, that's between the two moves. To truly compare Shaymin to Celebi, you have to see how they fare against the rest of OU. I won't post a wall of calculations (for that takes too much space), but I will post which one will do better or if neither has anything significant against the other.

Hide

Alakazam = There isn't a real advantage either way. Celebi is hit Super-Effectively by Shadow Ball and Shaymin is hard nearly as hard by Psychic. Keep neither against this thing.
Altaria = Neither wants to be against Altaria because of the very possible Fire Blast, but I have to give it to Celebi. A STAB Psychic can do more damage.
Azumarill = does it matter?
Bisharp = Shaymin. This is an example when Celebi's typing goes against it, being weak to Dark can force a Pursuit Lock or just a hard Knock Off.
Breloom = does it matter?
Celebi = Shaymin as the advantage if it decides to run Air Slash, which does more than Hidden Power Fire.
Chansey = The only reason Shaymin can do anything is because of Seed Flare's ridiculous 40% chance to drop Special Defense by two stages, but I'm still putting both as dead.
Charizard = lawl lawl lawl
Clefable = Well, both of them aren't having a fun time, are they?
Conkeldurr = This is a weird one. Conkeldurr almost always runs Knock Off, but it can also learn Poison Jab. Neither Pokemon like to be against this.
Diancie = heh paper beats rock
Dragonite = Fire Punch either one away.
Excadrill = I'm giving this to either one. Neither has a real advantage.
Ferrothorn = Like Chansey, I should make it a Shaymin win, but it's luck-based hax, so I can't.
Garchomp = Garchomp can learn Poison Jab? News to me.
Gardevoir = Celebi resists a STAB, so it gets on top.
Gengar = yeah no
Gyarados = Celebi works somewhat better against Base Gyarados, but Shaymin can work okay against either. On the other hand, Gyarados has Bounce.
Heatran = Earth Power to the max
Hippowdon = One look from these Pixies can churn any Hippo stomach.
Hoopa-U = run
Jirachi = Earth Power to the max
Keldeo = u wot m8
Klefki = Earth Power to the max
Kyurem-B = run
Landorus-T = U-Turn kills Celebi, so the winner is Shaymin.
Latis = no
Lopunny = Celebi resists Hi Jump Kick, so we have a winner.
Magnezone = Earth Power to the max
Manaphy = lol
Manectric = Earth Power to the max
Metagross = Earth Power to the max
Mew = Celebi (but only because it resists Psychic and Aura Sphere)
Raikou = Earth Power to the max
Rotom-W = Join the train of Grass-Types beating down a Washing Machine.
Sableye = Knock Off and Shadow Ball are typically weak, even with Celebi.
Scizor = Celebi must run.
Serperior = Like with Celebi, Shaymin can run Air Slash.
Skarmory = Allow it to Whirlwind you out.
Slowbro = lawl--wait, it gets Ice Beam. RUN!
Starmie = lawl--wait, it gets Ice Beam. RUN!
Sylveon = nothing advantageous here.
Thundurus = both dead
Tornadus-T = both dead
Tyranitar = Well, Tyranitar can Pursuit Lock Celebi, so that's not fun.
Venusaur = Celebi hits harder, right?
Weavile = Umm...ouchies for both.
Zapdos = ouchies

Looks like both of them are pretty similar. Celebi can check a bit more and has a more powerful Psychic, but must still be careful around anything with U-Turn. Shaymin has similar worries, but Landorus-T doesn't threaten it as much. Celebi has a better support movepool if you ask me, though, which is why most people say it "outclasses" Shaymin, but the latter has its place.

Also, yay to AM for not caring about Shaymin.[/hide][/hide]

 

[nameless90]

I agree with Shaymin in C (not higher)

Shaymin has only Seed Flare to distinguish itself from other useful Grass type and 40% of possibilities to drop the enemy's SDef is not even that high considering that this pokemon has moves with low base power and/or there are plenty 2x and 4x resistances to all his main attacks.
Being a pure grass type is a mixed bag of pros and cons but the most notably is that if you don't have some ways to boost quickly your SAtk/Atk you are walled by many 4x resistances to grass unlike Serperior (which is miles better as a special attacker) which has speed and a way to deal damage while boosting its SAtk to overwhelm (sometimes) even some checks.

There is a huge difference between having +2 in SAtk and giving -2 to SDef to the opponent because in the former case you can stay in and deal good damage even to 2x resist-pokemon whereas in the latter scenario the opponent can switch-out and "nothing" has happened (grass type is resisted by 7 types, not to mention the combinations).

Celebi has a lot of weaknesses but its additional type gives it an additional STAB move (=more attacking power) useful towards some pokemons (Keldeo, Mega-Venusaur which is slower than Celebi, Mega Lopunny, Breelom and some other specific pokemon your team may be weak to) that are supposed to check it, not to mention its support moves (Thunder Wave) to spread all around.

Shaymin has some nice options such as Air Slash and Dazzling Gleam (even though they are not STAB) and HP Rock is useful to lure some threats 4x weak to it but has a bad case of 4MSS combined with non-STAB/low base-power moves ===> Shaymin's fourth moveslot is quite unpredictable (you want Seed Flare and Earth Power for coverage, Rest to keep yourself alive and the last moveslot is for one move to lure some checks or you can forget Rest bul this leaves you prone to all status conditions), but in my opinion sometimes lacks power behind its moves and relies too much on 2x effective hits to be effective.

 

[The Manifold Curiosity]

I can provide some replays if you want AM. I have been using this guy for a long time now and IMO in this Meta Umbreon has never been so viable since the Aegislash Meta (where he was C rank). Basically with this Meta being a lot more offensive there are many more Pokemon being used which are very vulnerable to foul play.

I have been collecting replays over the last few months and it is becoming increasingly common where Umbreon not only walls teams but can single-handily defeat them. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-267870574
This replay shows me facing a HO team (which are much more common these days) where the only real danger to my team was Manaphy. Once I was finally able to defeat it Umbreon was able to switch in and destroy the rest of his team. Note that the crit on Exa did not matter as foul play does about 80% to it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-263080610 This replay is similar to the last one where the opponent had no answer to Umbreon and ultamitly loses for this reason.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-227245623 An older replay but it shows just how effective Umbreon is against sand teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258423937 Umbreon against Hoopa. Basically Umbreon completely walls physical Hoopa-U and can check the special version as long as it does not have nasty plot (which most people do not use).

These replays should show that Umbreon is no where near as passive as most people think. Now most people don't want Umbreon ranked not because its a bad mon but because Clefable and Sylveon outclass it. However Umbreon has several big advantages which IMO is why it should be ranked:

1. Umbreon is one of the best answers to Hoopa-U out there with only Mandibuzz as the exception, which is a very useful for stall teams. The problem with Mandibuzz though is that it is Stealth Rock weak and can be worn down be status effects. Umbreon does not have this problem and can use synchronize+ heal bell to punish those who try to wear it down.
2. Umbreon is the bulkiest cleric around that still has some degree of offensive pressure. The replays I showed demonstrates that Umbreon can break teams which is something Chansey can never do. Clefable is nowhere near as bulky which makes it easier to overwhelm, while Sylveon is only bulky on the special side and struggles against this very physical Meta. I have been running max defence and it still has enough special bulk to deal with Lati@s and Gengar. Speaking of Gengar that another plus, as ghost resists are hard to come by which many stall teams struggle with.
3. The popularity of fairy types means that almost every team has a steel type answer to them these days. Umbreon destroys M-Meta and Exa and the fully physical version can take on Scizor. Umbreon is a good defensive alternative if you are using a fairy Mega and don't want to use Clef etc because it makes your team too steel weak.
4. Metagame changes have benefited Umbreon, such as Weavile becoming very common which Umbreon walls. But in general Hoopa-U has encouraged physical attackers to be used more which Umbreon excels in defeating.

Yes Umbreon struggles against fighting and fairy types, but stall teams have got answers to that. Like I said at the start Umbreon has never been so viable since when Aegislash answers were hard to come by. D rank is far too low right now IMO and it should be in the C ranks for as long as Hoopa-U is in OU.

PS I have many more older Umbreon replays if you guys want them.

 

[thesecondbest]

dont really care about shaymins placement (i think its fine where it is at) but do you have any replays of umbreon or something like a build to go off of. I'm interested :0

First of all its off, not off of. The second f is the other of. But yeah, I'll add replays to this post when I get on PC. Wish + bp is a broken combo, and because of access to foul play and better defences than clef, it is also a pretty good cleric(it gets heal bell as well.) It walls bisharp and isn't setup fodder, and it is a check to some hoopa variants. With its goo d movepool, an ability thatbis semi useful when you take into account that it gets heal bell, it certainly deserves to be ranked.

And wow this shaymin/Celebi discussion is more cancerous than all the mega latios ones plz stop thx

 

[Halcyon.]

Shaymin is a great Grass type attacker, probably best after serp and mega scept (venu is a pivot, not an attacker). But Grass type attackers are not really that great when they give Zard X and Altaria free set ups. I still think it deserves C over C-, but absolutely no higher than that. There is no way that it's on par with stuff like AV Metagross in C+. It's cool, but it fits on only very specific teams. So please, just stop over/underselling it.

 

[brittney♥kitty]

Umbreon is the most slept on eeveelution of all time

It never dies, it just sits in the pocket all day, passing wishes, removing status, wearing things down with foul play. It can't be stopped.

Check Umbreon's 100% win rate in the battle city tournament

| 101  | Umbreon        | 4      |  0.41%  | 100.0% |

numbers dont lie
relevant replays from said tour
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258636029
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258632896
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79119
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79129
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79297

I'm 100% certain this dude would've won the whole tour if not for losing on activity due to being on vacation in Prague, because umbreon is that strong

replay of umbreon dismantling this stall baby and former #1 ladder battler's sableye stall with synchronize
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-1395885
replay of umbreon punishing set up mons
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-228465188
replay from my friend's 26-0 87gxe run with the umbreon squad
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-232260685
umbreon being umbreon
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270805884

in short, umbreon is the best and should move up

 

[AM]

First of all its off, not off of. The second f is the other of. But yeah, I'll add replays to this post when I get on PC. Wish + bp is a broken combo, and because of access to foul play and better defences than clef, it is also a pretty good cleric(it gets heal bell as well.) It walls bisharp and isn't setup fodder, and it is a check to some hoopa variants. With its goo d movepool, an ability thatbis semi useful when you take into account that it gets heal bell, it certainly deserves to be ranked.

And wow this shaymin/Celebi discussion is more cancerous than all the mega latios ones plz stop thx

thanks for the grammar lesson. That was totally necessary.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Shaymin is a great Grass type attacker, probably best after serp and mega scept (venu is a pivot, not an attacker). But Grass type attackers are not really that great when they give Zard X and Altaria free set ups. I still think it deserves C over C-, but absolutely no higher than that. There is no way that it's on par with stuff like AV Metagross in C+. It's cool, but it fits on only very specific teams. So please, just stop over/underselling it.

I'd personally say shaymin fares much better against Alt and ZardX (at least it has a ~33% chance lol) since they both die to Seed Flare + Psychic/Earth Power if the -2 activates. Alt and Zard (though the latter needs to play mindgames with mega evolving) set up for free on Serp and Scep, but not always on Shaymin. (there's also Dazzling Gleam if you want to 2HKO it regardless)

Yeah there's hax involved, but honestly a 40% chance (without acc) should be taken into consideration in my opinion.

 

[bludz]

Could see Umbreon in D rank, but its pretty bad I would be kind of opposed to it going much higher. Gets Torn a new one by every Fairy and most fighting types as well. It's a good check to Latios (cough like we don't have a ton already) but can lose to Calm Mind sets. It's setup fodder for some special attackers and and I'm skeptical of how well its dealing with Drain Punch and Focus Blast from Hoopa although I'm on mobile so not gonna calc (or watch the replays til later). It is really bulky tho and STAB Foul Play is nice on a defensive Mon.

BTW not sure where you got the idea that zardx sets up on Serp. After Rocks leaf Storm and +2 dpulse kos always. You may argue this only deals with switching in but honestly shaymins got the same problems and earh power can lose to Mega mind games.

 

[AM]

with that said I think you guys can move on from the shaymin discussion.

 

[kek123]

Hoopa Unbound for S -> A+
let me start this of by saying Hoopa-u is a really good pokemon the reason i wont it to go to A+ isnt that i think it bad its that it not GODLY it can be killed by basically any power full physical attack since it resists nothing so i cant switch in on much at all. also it need lot of support like Volt-turn to work to its full potential.Also any scarf mon with u-turn forces it to switch out since it is 4x weak so common thing like scarf lando also any thing faster than HoopaU with U-turn to really destroys Hoopa-u. Also it can be pursuit trapped by things like weavile and tyranitar (unless Hoopa-u has Drain punch but thats rare) . Also Hoopa-u get destroyed by HO (hyper offense) because nearly every thing in HO out speed it and can one shot it. One of it biggest weakness is its speed tier Base 80 is really not a good at all it is out speeded by so much of the meta that paired witch it terrible base defense stat (60) imo make it not worth of S rank. (Thanks for reading)

 

[Clair]

thanks for the grammar lesson. That was totally necessary.

You forgot a capital letter there as well. You need to put a capital letter at the start of every sentence.

Could see Umbreon in D rank, but its pretty bad I would be kind of opposed to it going much higher. Gets Torn a new one by every Fairy and most fighting types as well. It's a good check to Latios (cough like we don't have a ton already) but can lose to Calm Mind sets. It's setup fodder for some special attackers and and I'm skeptical of how well its dealing with Drain Punch and Focus Blast from Hoopa although I'm on mobile so not gonna calc (or watch the replays til later). It is really bulky tho and STAB Foul Play is nice on a defensive Mon.

BTW not sure where you got the idea that zardx sets up on Serp. After Rocks leaf Storm and +2 dpulse kos always. You may argue this only deals with switching in but honestly shaymins got the same problems and earh power can lose to Mega mind games.

Although Umbreon's typing doesn't do anything for its special walling capacity, the raw mixed stats mostly make up for it:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Walling standard Kyu-B is nice. You can't switch into Hoopa's Fighting coverage, but you can easily tank a Drain Punch + STAB:

48 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 69-82 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Hoopa Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

and of course Foul Play does 82% min to special Hoopa, and always OHKO's physical Hoopa. Paired with a physical wall you can handle it fairly comfortably.

Hoopa isn't really a major factor in Umbreon's viability right now, though. Umbreon is one of the best switch-ins to M-Sableye, which is all over the top of the ladder at the moment. D-rank is honestly trash; it's way too low for it. There's been more successful high level usage of Umbreon lately than anything in C, even C+.

: B--->B-/C+
I recall a little earlier back in this thread there was some discusion on how mediocre Defensive Starmie was in this meta with Weavile and it not forcing out much, and was absolutely baffled this mon wasn't mentioned.
Empoleon, much like the defensive Starmie mentioned, is basically a sitting duck, hoping for Scald burns. But what makes this even worse than Starmie is that it has no reliable recovery, meaning that Starmie can actually come in multiple times and stop the things it is supposed to rather than just rely on a scarce 6% recovery each turn. Hell, any time it gets Knocked Off it basically can't switch in without Wish support( not to say Starmie handles KOs better). And it getting Defog doesn't make it magically better. Scizor and Zapdos can do that much better without adding huge Electric, Ground, and Fighting weaknesses. Hell, even Hydreigon can force something out and Defog if it so chooses to run that set. It is often a detriment to any team that I attempt to make with it becuase it basically NEEDS Wish support, and the two main pokemon that supply those (Chans and Mola) stack weaknesses. Empoleon got hit extremely hard by the offensive shift of this meta, which is why I want it to move down a few spots.

Empoleon's more of a glue to bulky offense. You can check Latios, Manaphy, Torn-T, stuff like M-Gard and (Mega) Alakazam if you're using Chople, and so on. I'm not a huge fan of Empoleon either, and wouldn't mind seeing it drop to B-, but it has a reasonable niche. It's not as simple as just being inferior to other Defoggers (and Hydreigon doesn't learn Defog, btw).

 

[Midnight Absoul]

: B--->B-/C+
I recall a little earlier back in this thread there was some discusion on how mediocre Defensive Starmie was in this meta with Weavile and it not forcing out much, and was absolutely baffled this mon wasn't mentioned.
Empoleon, much like the defensive Starmie mentioned, is basically a sitting duck, hoping for Scald burns. But what makes this even worse than Starmie is that it has no reliable recovery, meaning that Starmie can actually come in multiple times and stop the things it is supposed to rather than just rely on a scarce 6% recovery each turn. Hell, any time it gets Knocked Off it basically can't switch in without Wish support( not to say Starmie handles KOs better). And it getting Defog doesn't make it magically better. Scizor and Zapdos can do that much better because of Roost and not adding huge Electric, Ground, and Fighting weaknesses. It is often a detriment to any team that I attempt to make with it becuase it basically NEEDS Wish support, and the two main pokemon that supply those (Chans and Mola) stack weaknesses. Clef is a decent partner, but Empoleon fears Bisharp, Excadrill, and Weavile, all of which Clef (if Weavile runs Poison Jab) can't handle. Empoleon got hit extremely hard by the offensive shift of this meta, which is why I want it to move down a few spots.

 

[bludz]

Clair

Only brought up the Hoopa thing in response to someone else. I agree it doesn't seem like the thing it's really meant to wall, but checking it is nice. I acknowledge Umbreon's great bulk (though look at some of those calcs, they are 2HKOs with rocks up even if you include Protect) and that's a reason I'm not against it being ranked. Cresselia has much better bulk and it's ranked at C-. I'm not entirely sure what makes you say it's been more successful at high levels than anything in C and C+, and I'm not really inclined to believe it unless you want to back it up with some proof. I've seen it in action and I know that it is capable of walling a good number of things. However it has competition as a cleric (Chansey & Alomomola) and as a deterrent to setup sweepers (Unaware mons) and is kind of inferior to all of them in those roles IMO. I think it's viable, but I'd be against ranking it in C+, C is about as high as I personally would be ok with and I kinda think C- or D is more appropriate.

 

[Clair]

I said it's been more successful than C threats recently simply because I've used it and had it used against me above 1700, and each time it's been effective. Not being 2HKO'd by Zard-Y's Fire Blast without Rocks is more proof of how effective it is at beating lesser threats, but of course if you can get Umbreon in on a Solarbeam or Roost you win.

I'll try and get some replays after work, but in the meantime it's worth noting that every other Cleric (besides Sylveon) is much more passive against offense (thanks to STAB Foul Play) and other defensive teams (thanks to Synchronise and the ability to somewhat negate M-Sableye). Sylveon is probably the most comparable mon; it performs better against Keldeo and some other things, but it can't check Hoopa or Gengar, has much worse physical bulk, and is easily pressured with status into using up its 8 Heal Bell PP. Sylveon's in B- for reference (although admittedly that is partly due to its Specs set).

 

[Mr James Grey]

Sylveon

No stop please

Sylveon as a cleric is shit. When you say umbreon is most comparable to sylveon as a cleric, it makes me think that you're saying Umbreon is bad.

 

[bludz]

Replays are nice and all for proving viability but "better than anything in C, even C+" is a bold claim that I don't think a couple of replays are going to convince me of. I thought by high level you were referring to tournaments in which case some statistics could potentially convince me. If it's high ladder we're talking about then there's no way in my mind that replays are showing it to be better than Dugtrio or Seismitoad which are glue on some of those quite successful Shedinja stall teams. Not to mention stuff like Entei which I've been seeing more of with its ability to pressure any team without a Heatran by spamming Sacred Fire or Alomomola which fits onto plenty of stall teams with its pure bulk, huge wishes and Regenerator. As for the Zard Y comment, you can make an argument about AV Snorlax to that same extent as well but it's simply not a good mon in this metagame so yeah I don't think that alone is a solid argument for putting it above C rank threats.

Also, regarding Sylveon, it isn't ranked in B- for its cleric set. If that were its only set it would probably drop a subrank or more based on the fact that we have a pokemon in Clefable aka one of the best mons in the tier that does a better job 95% of the time.

 

[Malheur]

M-Diancie is primarily meant to perform well against offensive oriented teams. Let's take a look at its most common set, Protect+3 Attacks, for example. The reason why M-Diancie performs better vs offensive teams compared to bulkier ones is; Magic Bounce, and defensive typing. Magic Bounce aids it a lot vs speed control mons found on HO like Thundurus and Klefki. This doesn't allow it to be crippled, and this ensures that its potential sweep isn't stopped by anything other than an OHKO. It has a really nice speed tier, the only things that can take it out on HO are: Iron Tail Tornadus-T, Klefki, Scarf Keldeo, and M-Lopunny (watch out for Protect). It's typing, Rock/Fairy, makes it resist the ever so present priority dark and flying type moves, again, commonly found on HO.

Let's take a look at this core. You mentioned that it had a hard time beating the likes of Hippowdon and Clefable, yes? Hippowdon is dealt with by Keldeo while Volcarona should be able to handle Clefable. Volcarona also beats Ferrothorn, M-Venusaur, and Amoonguss, all of whom pose a threat to M-Diancie. Keldeo and Volcarona both fear Talonflame, which in return is checked by M-Diancie. M-Diancie also breaks stuff like TankChomp which pose problems to QD Volcarona. Hope this cleared up your doubts.

Thanks for your answer Analytic.
This core is very interesting and I was so excited that I started to build around it a little. However, as I was building I noticed a very big Azumarill weakness (a Pokemon commonly seen in HO I think), which was quite hard to cover. On top of that, even with Diancie-Mega, I still need to have Defog or Rapid Spin in the team right?
So it felt kind of awkward because adding Latios, Latias or Excadrill would only stress the Azumarill weakness even more, while Starmie seemed kind of clunky alongside Keldeo.
When I was playtesting my team (I won't say what it was because it was pretty bad x'D), I got totally murdered by a Choice Band Talonflame because to my great surprise, Diancie-Mega was killed in two hits by Brave Bird. This Pokemon hits like a truck :c

I apologize if I went off-topic too much!

 

[procrastinat]

Replays are nice and all for proving viability but "better than anything in C, even C+" is a bold claim that I don't think a couple of replays are going to convince me of. I thought by high level you were referring to tournaments in which case some statistics could potentially convince me. If it's high ladder we're talking about then there's no way in my mind that replays are showing it to be better than Dugtrio or Seismitoad which are glue on some of those quite successful Shedinja stall teams. Not to mention stuff like Entei which I've been seeing more of with its ability to pressure any team without a Heatran by spamming Sacred Fire or Alomomola which fits onto plenty of stall teams with its pure bulk, huge wishes and Regenerator. As for the Zard Y comment, you can make an argument about AV Snorlax to that same extent as well but it's simply not a good mon in this metagame so yeah I don't think that alone is a solid argument for putting it above C rank threats.

Also, regarding Sylveon, it isn't ranked in B- for its cleric set. If that were its only set it would probably drop a subrank or more based on the fact that we have a pokemon in Clefable aka one of the best mons in the tier that does a better job 95% of the time.

Umbreon is the most slept on eeveelution of all time

It never dies, it just sits in the pocket all day, passing wishes, removing status, wearing things down with foul play. It can't be stopped.

Check Umbreon's 100% win rate in the battle city tournament

| 101  | Umbreon        | 4      |  0.41%  | 100.0% |

numbers dont lie
relevant replays from said tour
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258636029
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258632896
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79119
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79129
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79297

I'm 100% certain this dude would've won the whole tour if not for losing on activity due to being on vacation in Prague, because umbreon is that strong

replay of umbreon dismantling this stall baby and former #1 ladder battler's sableye stall with synchronize
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-1395885
replay of umbreon punishing set up mons
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-228465188
replay from my friend's 26-0 87gxe run with the umbreon squad
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-232260685
umbreon being umbreon
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270805884

in short, umbreon is the best and should move up

Is this what you were asking for bludz?

 

[bludz]

Is this what you were asking for bludz?

It is not. I'm not going to go into a whole statistics lesson but that's a small sample size and that statistic lacks any semblance of a comparison to the C and C+ mons which were brought up as a comparison to begin with (albeit by a different person). Glad replays were provided though.

Anyway to move on from this topic I have a couple of nominations.

Serperior A- -> A
Ok. This may have been brought up a bunch of times but I still think it should rise. From a teambuilding perspective Serperior is a pokemon that can be a problem if you do not have a hard stop to it, due to its ability to boost while using its STAB attack. Having checks is nice but if you get a kill with something like a Keldeo, Manaphy or Azumarill (all common pokemon and all commonly get KOs), Serperior comes in. If you don't have something that can switch in and stomach a +2 attack afterwards, then you're going to have to make a sacrifice and then attempt revenge it assuming they don't switch out. There are several things which are hard stops, but the list isn't infinite and it does apply a certain amount of restriction to teambuilding for all playstyles. I think it is simply the best offensive grass type in the metagame and a good enough sweeper that it is worthy of being ranked above things like regular Gyarados, Starmie, Volcarona (which is harder to fit onto teams), and Mega Aerodactyl.

Skarmory A -> A+
So, Ferrothorn and Hippowdon are A+ but Skarmory is not. I think that should change. In terms of typing alone it walls a significant portion of threats in the metagame. Both its defensive and specially defensive sets are excellent, and it is as reliable a spiker as Ferrothorn which relies on Leech Seed for recovery. As an added bonus it can also be a Defogger or Taunt abuser if need be and even specially defensive variants can check things like DD Altaria and Excadrill pretty damn well.

 

[AM]

I don't really mind things like Skarmory moving up but A+ is wiiiiicked bloated and things should drop before they rise especially for higher ranking stuff. Before this thread becomes total nonsense to read everything but Hoopa-U should stay S in that rank.

Edit: I also still stand by the post I made a bit ago about taking some of the placements with a grain of salt and knowing they can be either or in terms of two placements but w/e works.

 

[Albacore]

Agree with Serperior rise, this thing is defenitely a step above most A- ranks, not just in terms of being an offensive threat which easily curbsomps balanced teams once the one check to it is removed, but also as one of the only Grass-types that easily fits on offense (the others being Venusaur and Breloom both of which are pretty slow by offense stadnards, Breloom does have prio but the tier is filled with fast Fighting resists so it's not really the bets prio there is). A Grass-type can actually be a pretty nice thing for offense to have since it gives it a nice check to Water-types and Hippowdon which can often be kinda annoying for Offense to handle, and which gives it really good synergy with stuff like XZard and Talonflame as well. Very solid mon in general, doesn't need excessive support and is very easy to use.


Skarm to A+ I don't agree with simply on the basis that it can't put as much pressure on the opposng team as anything in A+. I get the comparaison to Ferro and Hippowdon since both are pretty passive as well, but these 2 Pokemon both sport pretty strong STABs with no drawbacks as well as solid coverage. Skarm doesn't really get either, the most powerful move it gets is Brave Bird whose recoil is so detrimental I honestly prefer Drill Peck a lot of the time, usually it carries Iron Head which it needs for Fairies but that not exactly a hard move to switch into, it's pretty easy to switch into and can't provide a real threat to teams outside of utility. Comapred to Ferrothorn and Hippowdon it's just not a Pokemon teams really tend to have trouble with and IMO doesn't fit as well on more offensively-inclined teams as a result, besides I don't think Ferro should be A+ but that's beyond the point.


Might as well make my own nom while I'm at it : Raikou to A. To be honest, I don't fullheartedly back this nom especially since Starmie dropped, and the two are more-or-less on the same level of viability imo, but I've recently been very impressed by Raikou's ability to both fit on teams and actually put in work in battle to the point where I see it as a cut above the rest of A rank. Originally I considered it to be inferior to MMan outside of taking a mega slot, and i still do for the most part, however it does have a few advantages over it, namely dealing with other fast Electrics thanks to its good special bulk. This often makes it a really good fit on offensive or balanced teams which have trouble against these Pokemon as well as Waters, which a lot of them do, and its ability to outspeed and gain momentum off a large portion of the metagame just adds to its overall prowess. Being able to absorb TWaves is also a really nice trait to have, there aren't may things that can do that on offense without being food for Water-types.

We all know about the perks and flaws of Specs and AV, but recently I've tried Sub CM and it actually works really well, the fact that most people expect it to just Volt Switch gives it a handful of setup opportunities, Sub is really good not just for dodging Status but also scouting the switches it forces thanks to its speed this includes Volt switches from other electrics) and preventing Bisharp from revenge killing you, Lefties really help it stay alive throughout the battle, and thanks to CM it breaks past stuff it normally has trouble with like Heatran, Mew, Rachi and even Venusaur in some cases, and it's a better check to non-mixed Thundy and opposing Raikou since it just sets up in their faces. Not saying it's the best set but it's defenitely good enough to push it into A territory since it necessitates a slightly different response from the opponent than the 2 main sets do.

(edit : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-271911998 my opponent was kinda bad and could've definitely played a lot better, but this replay is still a pretty good showcase of how tricky CM Raikou can be for certain teams to handlel, just apply this to a team with YZard instead of XZard and you get the general idea. besides I'm too lazy/busy to keep laddering to find a better replay. also featuring AV weavile wtf o.o)

The omnipresence of Hippowdon is a problem for Raikou, but it's usually not too big a deal given how many teams rely on Hippowdon as their sole check to powerful physical attackers like Talonflame Bisharp XZard Lopunny etc. Any team which has Hippowdon as their answer to both SD Talonflame and CM Raikou (which is actually quite common to see) is going to lose to that core unless it can prevent either from setting up.

Raikou's an effective, surprisingly splashable and relatively versatile mon wth a lot of valuable properties, and I can definitely see it in A rank at the moment.

 

[DennisEG]

I'm totally agree with the coments above about Serperior rising to A rank, If we look carefully in the teambuilding there is not to much that can switch in / counter it serperior, the only few counters/ SSI are Talonflame, Klefki and AV Tornadus-T and still Serp put a lot of pressure on this mons due to Glare because is very easy to predict the switch into this mon and glare them, Talonflame doesnt care to much (Gale wings baby) but Torn it does, Rocks + Leaf on switch + Dpulse/Leaf Storm has really good chance to knock it out, and Klefki can die after t-wave'd so other than these mon all of the rest take a heavy hit, also you need to scout if it is HP Fire or HP Ground as filler move. The speed is over 110 which for a set up mon is pretty damn good, breaking balance build and offense doesnt have SSI, can beat stall too if you running Taunt + Synthesis. As Albacore mentioned there isnt to many grass type in the tier that can put offensive pressure to every playstyle as Serperior does.

Following with the Albacore's post Raikou to A doesnt sound entirely bad, the problem could be that Hippowdon is everywhere but i think the CM set + toxic spikes is a pretty deadly combo to wear down the bulky grounds, also due to his speed is able to check a lot of the metagame right now like Metagross, Thundurus, Keldeo Lati@s even Hoopa-U if you running Signal Beam, might not hit hard enough but have access to CM, so paired with hazards can be a dangerous mon.