Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[nameless90]

Serperior to A : agree
Serperior is a huge threat due to its speed combined with his ability to go at +2 in SAtk while dealing damage and punches holes in the opponent's team from there; Glare is a nice lure move because helps dealing with some check and counters thus making it one of the best late game cleaners. I see Serperior A rank at maximum due to its middling bulk and limited number of coverage moves with the classic HP dilemma "if I choose HP Fire i can beat some pokemons but i am checked by [...]; if I choose HP x I beat some other threats and I can be checked by others" due to its harsh movepool.

Skarmory to A+ : disagree
I think that the only thing that makes Ferrothorn and Hippowdon A+ worty is the possibility to run a STAB (or even two in Ferrothorn's case) without recoil who leaves it prone to be revenge killed more easily than the other two monster from the threat that eats Brave Bird (from a pokemon with 65 base HP and 70 base Spe) and Counter, while being great, works only against physical attackers. There is no shame of being "only" A-rank worthy.

 

[Gary]

I never really understood the issues people had with rank inflation tbh; when I ran the VR thread a long time ago alexwolf and I had a lot of disagreements with rankings just because he hated seeing so many mons in one rank. I get that A+ at this rate is fucking huge, but not moving Pokemon up or down for the sake of not over crowding the ranks just doesn't seem right to me. If a Pokemon deserves A+ rank and is on par with everything else found in that rank, than it SHOULD be A+ rank, or else it ruins the entire point of what a VR is supposed to show. I'm not saying that A+ rank is perfect atm, and yes I agree with AM that there is shit in A+ that probably does need to drop, but I really don't want to see people start to get this idea in there head that we can't rise/drop shit into crowded ranks for the sake of rank inflation. There just happens to be a LOT of Pokemon that are VERY good in the metagame but aren't good enough to be S or don't have enough flaws to be A or lower.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk or anything, but take it from a guy who ran OU VR in the past and had people refusing to raise/drop shit just to keep the ranks less cluttered, which caused the rankings to ultimately become less accurate.

Also Hoopa-U def needs to drop to A+ no doubt about that. It's not splashable at all compared to Mega Alt, Clef, or Manaphy, nor does it just sweep through weakened teams very easily like Zard-X. It fits pretty well in A+ tbh, maybe even A, but I don't know. People love to compare it to KyuB, but in all honesty, KyuB is way more predictable and easier to dance around than Hoopa-U. Kyurem is always going to be running Ice Beam and Fusion Bolt unless you wanna lose to Cune, Azu, and Manaphy. Earth Power is pretty necessary too or else Heatran practically comes in for free and sets up rocks, and you're not nearly as good as a Rotom-W check anymore. The last slot is pretty damn easy to scout for, and more often than not it will probably be running HP Fire anyway because of how damn common Scizor and Ferro are at the moment, and how KyuB is otherwise a free SD for Mega Scizor.

Hoopa-U on the other hand, can be very difficult to scout for because of how many different moves it can run + D-Pulse practically 2HKOs everything in the tier anyway bar Fairies which lose to Gunk, Chansey which hates Knock Off or D-Punch, and more SpD variants of Hippo or Chomp which lose to GK or HP Ice respectively. Yes it's slow, and yes its lack of resistances and physical bulk makes it a piece of shit sometimes VS offense, but it's such an incredibly annoying Pokemon to play around vs like any other playstyle and if played right it can pretty much guarantee a kill or at least heavily soften up shit. I think A+ is fine for it right now. KyuB is more splashable just because of its resistances and shit, but I can't really see how KyuB gives Hoopa-U competition as a wallbreaker, because it's definitely one of if not THE hardest Pokemon to switch into in OU, and before you can scout it sets properly, it practically has no reliable counters. I can't really think of that many fat mons outside of niche shit like Umbreon that can reliably take it on 100% of the time.

 

[Martin]

Skarmory to A+ : disagree
I think that the only thing that makes Ferrothorn and Hippowdon A+ worty is the possibility to run a STAB (or even two in Ferrothorn's case) without recoil who leaves it prone to be revenge killed more easily than the other two monster from the threat that eats Brave Bird (from a pokemon with 65 base HP and 70 base Spe) and Counter, while being great, works only against physical attackers. There is no shame of being "only" A-rank worthy.

While I am completely neutral on Skarmory and don't really have any opinion regarding up v.s. down, I am generally confused at your neglect of Iron Head. Iron Head is great for its lack of recoil and ability to break through Mega Diancie, which is very good for Spikes variants (for obvious reasons) and is easily the best option for SpD variants due to it thriving on its ability to take on fairies like Diancie and Clefable significantly better than the PhysDef set can - meaning a way to hit them hard is a must. Skarmory's access to Iron Head basically invalidates your entire reasoning for Skarmory not moving up, and I think that there are definitely more notable things which could possibly hold Skarmory down from A+ (I don't really like comparing it to other bulky 'mons due to them all fitting on different teams, so I can't really think of much off of the top of my head aside from its worse matchup v.s. VoltTurn than Hippo (blocks Volt Switch, cockblocks Man/Raikou) and Ferro (resists Volt Switch, lures Overheat from Man so that you can take advantage of -2 SpA/Flash Fire boost, punishes U-Turn without sacrificing its item)).

 

[nameless90]

Iron Head is a good option for Skarmory to break trough Mega Diace but, aside from 4x mosters weak to this move, it is not so hard switching into it due to his base power (80) + STAB comparing to Brave Bird (120 base power+STAB) and to Counter, not to mention that its low base speed makes the flinch rate (while 30% rate is nice) underwhelming in practice towards many Faeries (bar Azumarill and Clefable which are outsped) and others pokemons which are not weak to Steel. As a Defogger, Skarmory is forced to forget Spikes (removing its layers of hazards is counterproductive) and as a Taunt user it has low speed thus making it weak to Taunt; Whirlwind is a safer bet even though it has negative priority because Skarmory is already outsped by the set-up sweepers and by some utility monster.
This is only my personal opinion: I don't think Skarmory is that far from A+ rank or that far from Ferrothorn (now in A+ albeit this can be controversial*), but I think it is a good pokemon in A rank with a case of bad 4MSS and weak to Volt Switch users (being slow and weak to Electric-moves instead of resisting or being immune to them).

* I can even see Ferrothorn in A because its lack of reliable 50% HP recovery and the meta adapted to it with HP Fire being everywhere but even if we put Ferrothorn and Skarmory in A rank i see the former stronger than the latter (even if they will be put in the same rank) due to some things (higher mixed bulk, stronger Steel STAB even usable with a strong Grass STAB in the same moveset, resists to Electric, some Fire moves from Electric types are quite predictable).

 

[kek123]

Serperior A- -> A
Ok. This may have been brought up a bunch of times but I still think it should rise. From a teambuilding perspective Serperior is a pokemon that can be a problem if you do not have a hard stop to it, due to its ability to boost while using its STAB attack. Having checks is nice but if you get a kill with something like a Keldeo, Manaphy or Azumarill (all common pokemon and all commonly get KOs), Serperior comes in. If you don't have something that can switch in and stomach a +2 attack afterwards, then you're going to have to make a sacrifice and then attempt revenge it assuming they don't switch out. There are several things which are hard stops, but the list isn't infinite and it does apply a certain amount of restriction to teambuilding for all playstyles. I think it is simply the best offensive grass type in the metagame and a good enough sweeper that it is worthy of being ranked above things like regular Gyarados, Starmie, Volcarona (which is harder to fit onto teams), and Mega Aerodactyl.

Skarmory A -> A+
So, Ferrothorn and Hippowdon are A+ but Skarmory is not. I think that should change. In terms of typing alone it walls a significant portion of threats in the metagame. Both its defensive and specially defensive sets are excellent, and it is as reliable a spiker as Ferrothorn which relies on Leech Seed for recovery. As an added bonus it can also be a Defogger or Taunt abuser if need be and even specially defensive variants can check things like DD Altaria and Excadrill pretty damn well.[/quote]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------What i say about this
id agree with you with skarmory that mons defensive typing and good stats with a great move pool deserve it a posison in A+ but i dis agree about serp as serp hes to come in on sothing super efective to do any thing also serp just isnt virsity enough to get A rank imo as leaf storm contrary is really it only set also it terrible spa stab mean it has to have so free turn to be able to do any thing i think this mon need to nuch i means of support to be as good is the other A mons also it lack of a move pull really lets it down so it realy hard to sweep with also talonflame just shut this thing down . But i do agree with skarm

 

[Acamm130]

Ok, I have a few so...
Mega sharpedo B -> B-
While sharpedo does have a lot of potential for sweeping late game, it is not a very reliable sweeper when compared to several others like gatr or dnite because you have one real shot at it. It is also very frail having 70/70/65 defenses leaving it very vulnerable to strong priority moves like talonflame's brave bird, conk/loom's mach punch, CB Dnite's extreme speed, ect. Finally, it gets stopped by things like skarm, quag, scarf keldeo, rotom-w, prankster t-wave from key/thundy, mega venusaur. All these things combine to make it worth dropping IMO.

Next

Suicune B+ -> A-
While this dog generally runs the CM rest set that faces competition from M slowbro in OU, suicune has a few notable advantages over bro such as the ability to pressure stall and not taking up a mega slot. Not only does it have these but it also gets access to support moves such as tailwind to boost your teams speed and roar to force out opposing setup sweepers and to rack up entry damage. These traits make it a similarly viable alternative to slowbro and thus should be considered for a rise.

Finally

Staraptor C+ -> B-

This was talked about durring the C+ and below discussion but think that it should be discussed more. For one, the banded set is extremely hard to switch into and deals with many talonflame counters teams generally bring (rotom-w, heatran, tyranitar) and the scarf set threatens many offensive mons (including mega man, another solid talon check, with double edge if granted a safe switch) and can severely damage/one-for-one with something on the opponents team if it does not have a favorable match up against the opposing team using final gambit. While it does rely on recoil based moves to do its damage and gets worn down quickly, it is very hard to switch into. When comparing it to victini (a B+ mon) raptor has no speed drop from its hardest hitting stab attack(s) so it can keep hammering away while remaining at a good (I'll be it a little underwhelming) speed tier , and even though they are both weak to rocks, staraptor is not as much of pursuit bait as victini because it can still threaten pursuit trappers with a hard hitting attack because its speed remains the same after using BB.

These are food for thought so anyone please argue for or against these noms/drop.

 

[jacksoras]

My issue with Suicune rising, although i definitely feel the nomination should be taken seriously, is that the better set is cm + roar + rest + scald, no doubt, all though u lose the immediate offensive presence, the ability to faze set-up mons such as manaphy, gyarados, dnite, clefable, zard x, mega slowbro and slowbro and even bd azum is simple too fucking good, since all of these mons would take advantage of suicune resting to set up, since legit like 90% of the time sleep talk chooses rest. Im not saying there isn't a place at all for cm sleep talk, but on almost 99% of my teams i would choose the roar set, which also helps deal with other suicunes. The issue with suicune, and roar suicune in particular, is that the cm set is less likely to sweep, and u give opportunities for set-up after attempting a sweep, while the other suicune set, the rest talk gives set-up opportunities almost immediately. Suicune is able to act as a blanket check to many mons and can definately sweep unprepared teams, but I think its vulnerability to a miriad of set-up sweepers that can take advantage of suicune with its initial weak offensive presence, its unpredictability and unreliability with restalk sets and another issue i haven't covered, but its reliabilty on scald burns to take on many of the physical threats in the metagame, meaning in all honesty, suicune is too unreliable imo to make it to A- alongside mons such as klefki, jirachi and celebi.

 

[TURBODERP]

Ok, I have a few so...
Mega sharpedo B -> B-
While sharpedo does have a lot of potential for sweeping late game, it is not a very reliable sweeper when compared to several others like gatr or dnite because you have one real shot at it. It is also very frail having 70/70/65 defenses leaving it very vulnerable to strong priority moves like talonflame's brave bird, conk/loom's mach punch, CB Dnite's extreme speed, ect. Finally, it gets stopped by things like skarm, quag, scarf keldeo, rotom-w, prankster t-wave from key/thundy, mega venusaur. All these things combine to make it worth dropping IMO.

Disagree with this one-sure priority merks it, but this thing hits so frickin hard. Hydro Pump on the standard set will 2HKO Physically Defensive Skarm, and SpDef Skarm gets 2HKO'd by Crunch. With a tiny bit of chip damage, Crunch 2HKO's Quagsire (after SR it's a 60% chance). Rotom-W can't switch in because Crunch 2HKO's the physically bulkiest sets. Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur is a stop, but SpDef variants get 2HKO'd by crunch and so are offensive variants. Things like Mixed Hippo are safe switchins to Crunch once-after 10% chip damage or so, even max PhysDef Hippo are 2HKO'd by Crunch into Waterfall.

You can run Poison Jab to beat Azumarill and Clefable or Zen Headbutt to beat Keldeo or Ice Fang to merk RH Garchomp (and Gliscor to a lesser degree).

Most sweepers are vulnerable to prankster Twave so while it's valid it's not exactly unique.

Mega Sharpedo generally has one shot at sweeping but it's so damn good at it that I'm not seeing why it should drop-if it *does* I feel like the increased prevalence of RH Garchomp would be the main reason.

 

[brittney♥kitty]

Umbreon is the most slept on eeveelution of all time

It never dies, it just sits in the pocket all day, passing wishes, removing status, wearing things down with foul play. It can't be stopped.

Check Umbreon's 100% win rate in the battle city tournament

| 101  | Umbreon        | 4      |  0.41%  | 100.0% |

numbers dont lie
relevant replays from said tour
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258636029
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258632896
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79119
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79129
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-79297

I'm 100% certain this dude would've won the whole tour if not for losing on activity due to being on vacation in Prague, because umbreon is that strong

replay of umbreon dismantling this stall baby and former #1 ladder battler's sableye stall with synchronize
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-1395885
replay of umbreon punishing set up mons
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-228465188
replay from my friend's 26-0 87gxe run with the umbreon squad
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-232260685
umbreon being umbreon
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270805884

in short, umbreon is the best and should move up

adding onto this

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-272348694

umbreon clutching the finals of a HEATAH FAJITA™ room tour (shouts to my boy blunder)

umbreons just too good

 

[kek123]

Staraptor C+ -> B-/B

I really think staraptor should be moved up(tbh i think staroptor should be B+ but im not going to push it) please dont conpain staraptor with talon flame they bth do two different thing in the meta what staraptor does is brings amazing wall breaking power!
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 295-348 (70.2 - 82.8%) guaranteed 2HKO
i that isnt pure wall break power i dont know what is
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 255-301 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 189-223 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
this thing is a monster . This calc is after itimidate as you can see there is verry little that can wall this thing

some mons that resists still fall to this monster of a pokemon
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 174-205 (45 - 53.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (this is after rocks tho)
I feel people really under estimate staraptors power you can also fake scarf with this guy he force switch left right and center I feel the only true switch to staroptor is skarmory (theres probly a couples ive missed out) well and pysi def heatran but hes verry rare.
Do you remember rotom-wash well...
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Poor R-wash that max def and HP to lol)

Staraptor pairs really well with Volt-rurn as you can get him in multipull times on the battle and destroy your enemy's walls are they may just sack to this monster .Though i will admit staraptor has some flaws one of them is it not great defenses / hp stats a secounds weakness is being weak to rocks witch is never good a third one is its Base speed stat (100 higher than most other wall breaker or on par) witch isnt bad but its nothing to write home about but i really think staraptor is deserved of B rank or at least B- witch it amazing wall breaking ability's thanks for reading! (sorry for the mass amount of calc but i really wanted to prove the GODLY wall breaking potential this pokemon has)

 

[Martin]

Staraptor C+ -> B-/B

I really think staraptor should be moved up(tbh i think staroptor should be B+ but im not going to push it) please dont conpain staraptor with talon flame they bth do two different thing in the meta what staraptor does is brings amazing wall breaking power!
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 295-348 (70.2 - 82.8%) guaranteed 2HKO
i thank isnt pure wall break power i dont know what is
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 255-301 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 189-223 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
this thing is a monster . This calc is after itimidate as you can see there is verry little that can wall this thing

some mons that resists still fall to this monster of a pokemon
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 174-205 (45 - 53.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (this is after rocks tho)
I feel people really under estimate staraptors power you can also fake scarf with this guy he force switch left right and center I feel the only true switch to staroptor is skarmory well and pysi def heatran but hes verry rare.
Do you remember rotom-wash well...
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Poor R-wash that max def and HP to lol)

Staraptor pairs really well with Volt-rurn as you can get him in multipull times on the battle and destroy your enemy's walls are they may just sack to this monster .Though i will admit staraptor has some flaws one of them is it not great defenses / hp stats a secounds weakness is being weak to rocks witch is never good a third one is its Base speed stat (100 higher than most other wall breaker or on par) witch isnt bad but its nothing to write home about but i really think staraptor is deserved of B rank or at least B- witch it amazing wall breaking ability's thanks for reading! (sorry for the mass amount of calc but i really wanted to prove the GODLY wall breaking potential this monster has)

We all know that Staraptor is stupendously powerful, but you have neglected to mention its middling speed (which holds it back hugely), reliance on choice items and its habit of killing itself. Due to its reliance on choice items, it really can't afford to run Roost - making its longevity abysmal - and it becomes fodder for a different 'mon as soon as it has attacked (if it is locked into Brave Bird, it is fodder for electrics, steels and rocks; if it is locked into Double Edge, it is fodder for rocks, steels and ghosts etc.). It does have a niche, but the problem with it is that it struggles to fit outside of birdspam teams because, while it hits like a truck, its main niche is its ability to take on electrics (and trust me when I say there are better answers on non-birdspam teams). You have calced it v.s. Garchomp, but doing so involves it getting impaled in the process (assuming Garchomp doesn't use Endure, Staraptor takes ((1/6)+(1/8)+(damage dealt*0.33))%; v.s. OffenseChomp, just take away the (1/6) from the equation). IMO, Staraptor is slap bang where it should be, as it is very limited in the types of teams it fits onto, it has an iffy speed tier, it is effectively forced into choice, it will often only hit 2-3 times before dying, and it isn't exactly helped by the fact that it impales itself on the most common 'mon atm.

 

[Albacore]

If my calculations are correct, Adamant Banded Staraptor loses between 61 and 67% of its health upon hitting Garchomp.

If anything, Staraptor should move down, not up. I honestly don't see why I'd use a physical wallbreaker which necissitates hazard removal, provides nothing defensively, and kills itself while wallbreaking, especially when there are way better physical wallbreakers that don't share these flaws, and can get past the most common Pokemon in OU without going down in the process.

 

[AM]

Staraptor is pretty mediocre and team specific so not sure where the hype is coming from - someone who has used and faced one

I talked with some of the ranking team about this so for the sake of clarity I'm really wondering what is the legitimate point in having Chandelure being ranked. It's one of those mons that is so team specific and outclassed in its roles that I would never justify it on any sort of serious team, as in a team that I would like to have win matches where it matters. If someone wants to defend it fine by me, cause I think it's useless. No being a Char-Y switch in is not an exclusive trait before someone says that to me.

 

[Midnight Absoul]

I'm not asking this move anywhere, but why is Politoed a sub-rank higher than the rain sweepers? Is it because it provides the rain support itself? I just never understood the placement and I would like that explained a bit.
Also, just so this isn't a huge waste of a post, I propose Gothitelle move up to B+. There's been a lot of effective stall teams made with it, and it and M-Eye are basically the faces of stall. You need a bit of support for it to be effective, which is why I don't want it moving outside of B, but getting rid of Clefable and defensive Heatran for (almost) free is huge for Pokes like M-Alt, Zard X, and Kyu-B.
tldr: Why is Politoed a rank above rain sweepers? And Goth to B+.

 

[kek123]

We all know that Staraptor is stupendously powerful, but you have neglected to mention its middling speed (which holds it back hugely), reliance on choice items and its habit of killing itself. Due to its reliance on choice items, it really can't afford to run Roost - making its longevity abysmal - and it becomes fodder for a different 'mon as soon as it has attacked (if it is locked into Brave Bird, it is fodder for electrics, steels and rocks; if it is locked into Double Edge, it is fodder for rocks, steels and ghosts etc.). It does have a niche, but the problem with it is that it struggles to fit outside of birdspam teams because, while it hits like a truck, its main niche is its ability to take on electrics (and trust me when I say there are better answers on non-birdspam teams). You have calced it v.s. Garchomp, but doing so involves it getting impaled in the process (assuming Garchomp doesn't use Endure, Staraptor takes ((1/6)+(1/8)+(damage dealt*0.33))%; v.s. OffenseChomp, just take away the (1/6) from the equation). IMO, Staraptor is slap bang where it should be, as it is very limited in the types of teams it fits onto, it has an iffy speed tier, it is effectively forced into choice, it will often only hit 2-3 times before dying, and it isn't exactly helped by the fact that it impales itself on the most common 'mon atm.

First you say i did notice its base speeding
. Let me quote my self ''Base speed stat (100 higher than most other wall breaker or on par) witch isnt bad but its nothing to write home about'' yes staraptor take tones off recoil and almost kill its self and garchomp but thats a A+ down the drain and what other pokemon mons does this O-yea talon flame the other A+ rank mon secoundly you say staraptor is forced in a choice item witch is some what true but plenty of othere mons always run choice items two like keldeo(i know keldeo can run E-belt and sub CM but specs and scarf are the best sets and the most used) and magnazone this isnt a bad thing its just what there best at also you are comparing this mons to other mons that A rank (around) when im only asking for B- i admit B/B+ is pushing alot a but i think it has a good enougth niche to be consider as a B- rank treat thanks for reading =) tho i thank you for saying it has a nice niche

 

[Srn]

Staraptor is pretty mediocre and team specific so not sure where the hype is coming from - someone who has used and faced one

I talked with some of the ranking team about this so for the sake of clarity I'm really wondering what is the legitimate point in having Chandelure being ranked. It's one of those mons that is so team specific and outclassed in its roles that I would never justify it on any sort of serious team, as in a team that I would like to have win matches where it matters. If someone wants to defend it fine by me, cause I think it's useless. No being a Char-Y switch in is not an exclusive trait before someone says that to me.

It's a..uh..spinblocker that can beat scizor on sticky web teams?
lol your guess is as good as mine. But being an offensive ghost in general+big power imo is enough for it to stay where it is. A LO subsplit set for example steamrolls the usual msab/venu/chansey/skarm/quag/goth garbage that's kinda common on the ladder. Actually you dont even need subsplit to annoy chansey, taunt is enough. It's also kinda helpful when slowbro is the bulky water of some teams, the rest of ferro/clef/hippo/torn-t/filler won't have too much fun either.
Basically a special fire that isn't stopped by chansey is kinda cool keep it ranked :]

regarding raptor a scarf set is fast and strong but RH chomp just really isn't kind to it, raptor shouldn't move up when it's so popular.

I have one other nom to make as well: Mega Absol C-->C-
I just dont like this thing on paper nor do i like what i've seen in battles. It's very frail and slow as well before evo, its bulk doesn't improve after it, and it needs an SD to do much damage, which you often need to get off by forcing a switch from the threat of a sucker because absol does not take any hits. It's actually somewhat versatile when it can carry stuff like SD, knock, sucker, play rough, fire blast, ice beam, and baton pass, but these dont help some of its bigger issues, one of which is clefable or azu on every other team.
If I want a fast dark type, I'll use weavile, and if I want a strong sucker punch, I'll go to bisharp. You want a way to beat mega sableye? Well too bad because foul play 2hkos mega absol cleanly. Baton Pass is an interesting prospect but when intimidate mons are common switch-ins (see lanT) it also gets less appealing.
There are plenty of other fast megas that can provide actual defensive synergy (aero) or more immediate power (zam) or still have fairly powerful prio (Lop, pinsir) I'd just straight up never use this thing and I dont see it on par with goodra and regular heracross.

 

[AM]

It's a..uh..spinblocker that can beat scizor on sticky web teams?
lol your guess is as good as mine. But being an offensive ghost in general+big power imo is enough for it to stay where it is. A LO subsplit set for example steamrolls the usual msab/venu/chansey/skarm/quag/goth garbage that's kinda common on the ladder. Actually you dont even need subsplit to annoy chansey, taunt is enough. It's also kinda helpful when slowbro is the bulky water of some teams, the rest of ferro/clef/hippo/torn-t/filler won't have too much fun either.
Basically a special fire that isn't stopped by chansey is kinda cool keep it ranked :]

regarding raptor a scarf set is fast and strong but RH chomp just really isn't kind to it, raptor shouldn't move up when it's so popular.

I have one other nom to make as well: Mega Absol C-->C-
I just dont like this thing on paper nor do i like what i've seen in battles. It's very frail and slow as well before evo, its bulk doesn't improve after it, and it needs an SD to do much damage, which you often need to get off by forcing a switch from the threat of a sucker because absol does not take any hits. It's actually somewhat versatile when it can carry stuff like SD, knock, sucker, play rough, fire blast, ice beam, and baton pass, but these dont help some of its bigger issues, one of which is clefable or azu on every other team.
If I want a fast dark type, I'll use weavile, and if I want a strong sucker punch, I'll go to bisharp. You want a way to beat mega sableye? Well too bad because foul play 2hkos mega absol cleanly. Baton Pass is an interesting prospect but when intimidate mons are common switch-ins (see lanT) it also gets less appealing.
There are plenty of other fast megas that can provide actual defensive synergy (aero) or more immediate power (zam) or still have fairly powerful prio (Lop, pinsir) I'd just straight up never use this thing and I dont see it on par with goodra and regular heracross.

With all due respect I think the majority of those stall teams are quite terrible, ie ones that aren't packing pursuit support and the ones that aren't packing TFlame to consolidate roles where Chandelure really shouldn't be an issue, especially for a set that sounds incredibly matchup based. I don't think having some sort of validity in steamrolling bad teams, bad stall variants included, deserves merit or a thought in the teambuilder process where there is superiority in wallbreaking roles in the form of Char-Y, Kyurem-B, Manaphy, etc.

Edit: Also M-Sableyes existence alone mandates it needs to get a Sub up first otherwise it's just gonna lose to any defensive build packing an M-Sableye to begin with.

This is all paper logic, the reasoning, as well. Where are the good Chandelure builds, where are the replays of it actually facing a dude / gal that has half a brain not some guy packing Ash's 4th gen team to ladder, where it's doing any of these points mentioned? How does both a pursuit and rock weak mon that can't contend with a bunch of relevant stuff in the tier justify a team slot, ranking wise. Yeah I could make Chandelure work, just like I made slurpuff work, just like how I made Claydol work in Lando meta. That doesn't mean any of them should be ranked for the sake of "it just works".

No comment on M-Absol I think it's bad anyways and rather not try and make a case about something that has so little usage to begin with.

 

[kek123]

Alakazam A- -> B+

First alakzam is pretty good LO and sash set can put in work but im here to say why i think it isnt worth A- imo.
One reason why zam inst worth A- imo is the fact that its so predictable sash and LO are the only sets so you all ways know whats its going to do theres no surprise you see zam you a into you spdef wall tread averted yea it gets pyshock but most spdef walls like spdef skarm or clefable have some /lots of physical defense to deal with that secoundly zam is so easy to pursuit trap if it LO witch is the best imo because otherwise it lacks damage. Another problem with zam is its terrible defensive stats well it spdef is ok but i dont even want to talk about its physical defense the thing is with zam is it kill the apposing pokemon or it dies its as simples as that and with a rise in bulky mons it not really doing much of the killing part unless they are pre-damaged well you could say that well sash dosnt die becuase of sash witch is true but sash i really lacking in damage so it cant even 2 hit some mons also with the massive rise in weavile usage witch is causing zam tons of problems since its faster and it gets pursuit .One of sash zam's strong points was revenge killing set up sweepers but hes strugles with that too 252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 133-157 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 138-163 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Over all with the meta shifting to a bulker meta i feel alakzam has lost it magic touch!

 

[jordanthejq12]

I'm not asking this move anywhere, but why is Politoed a sub-rank higher than the rain sweepers?

It is, as you said, entirely because it provides the actual rain. Politoed itself can do a fair bit more on rain teams, but its primary purpose is to make it rain. The reason it's in A+ is because rain is so damn good.

Can I ask what Blissey does that Chansey doesn't?

I'm guessing you might know this already, but Blissey's main advantages over her sister are the ability to hold an item (Leftovers usually, and as the old meme went, "not as vulnerable to Knock Off") and a SpA stat of 75 that allows her to carry an attack other than Seismic Toss and usually 1v1 Gengar, who Chansey cannot touch without Thunder Wave. Blissey's placements have typically been dictated by what exactly these meant--during the Lando era, she could carry Ice Beam and severely dent it (a time during which, IIRC, there was serious talk of the two being within a single subrank of each other); other times the move of choice was Flamethrower. But with Lando gone, and stall-oriented mons finding their jobs more difficult in an offensively-oriented meta, perhaps Blissey's moment in the sun has passed. Or perhaps not.

 

[Punchshroom]

Gonna restate my stance on Staraptor:

The problem with Staraptor when we compare it to literally every other notable Flying attacker in the tier is that it is both hard to get into battle and has extremely poor staying power. Talonflame's typing, coupled with bulk investment that it can more than easily afford, allows it to actually switch into powerful mons like Mega Altaria, LO Clefable, and Mega Charizard Y, which easily makes up for the SR weakness. Fighting + Flying coverage isn't anything special either, as both Mega Pinsir and Hawlucha possess them, and can function as good wincons by SDing up, blitz past their foes with priority / Unburden, and sweep for game (Hawlucha being much more of a YOLO choice than MPinsir).

Every time I see a Staraptor (painstakingly) enter battle, it use a grand total of one attack before it is forced out again. It doesn't matter what kind of Raptor it is: Scarf, Band, LO...all Raptors will get forced out after one attack against a half-decent team. Coupled with the recoil Raptor takes, the SR weakness, the mediocre defensive typing, and poor bulk, Staraptor usually ends up throwing out a mere 2-3 attacks par game, which equates to low survivability and pathetic staying power, which translates into mediocre presence. The sheer decline of CB Talon compared to early XY (where BirdSpam was most popular) has shown that hit-and-run Brave Bird mons are definitely not the way to go in this meta, and when you consider this is Staraptor's sole niche, this doesn't spell good news for Raptor. Hell, I believe even Honchkrow fares better than Staraptor as a Flying-type holepuncher in the meta, because at the very least it can adapt to TankChomps with Icy Wind, or Skarmory / Klefki with Heat Wave. Oh, and both Moxie and STAB Sucker Punch grant Honchkrow more snowballing potential (aka doesn't get forced out nearly as often) than Raptor, and survivability / staying power is practically the name of the game for Flying mons right now.

Tl;dr: Staraptor has a hard time switching in and staying in. If that weren't enough, there's the huge issue with survivability what with the recoil, SR weakness, and the popularity of TankChomp. And then there's the fact that Raptor is just slow enough to get forced out by a lot of offensive Pokemon in the tier. Hell, checks to Staraptor, namely Klefki, Skarmory, Mega Diancie, and Mega Metagross are still common and popular enough to keep Raptor at bay, so Raptor's raw effectiveness can still be put into question. Staraptor is pretty much worse than CB Talon which is seeing less and less usage as it is (for good reason), and even then Talon at least can swat aside the Steels that check or counter Raptor. On Flying spam, there are still a whole host of other Flying-types one could consider using, and even Honchkrow has more tool to adapt in this meta than Staraptor does. Staraptor needs to drop.

 

[Kibblecat]

I'm guessing you might know this already, but Blissey's main advantages over her sister are the ability to hold an item (Leftovers usually, and as the old meme went, "not as vulnerable to Knock Off") and a SpA stat of 75 that allows her to carry an attack other than Seismic Toss and usually 1v1 Gengar, who Chansey cannot touch without Thunder Wave. Blissey's placements have typically been dictated by what exactly these meant--during the Lando era, she could carry Ice Beam and severely dent it (a time during which, IIRC, there was serious talk of the two being within a single subrank of each other); other times the move of choice was Flamethrower. But with Lando gone, and stall-oriented mons finding their jobs more difficult in an offensively-oriented meta, perhaps Blissey's moment in the sun has passed. Or perhaps not.

The other thing is Shed Shell, which allows her to not be CM stalled or tricked (or both) by Psyshock Gothitelle, and also lets her switch out of Wobb's Encore. Both of those can be successfully built around, hence it's utility, but it's still fairly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and there are definitely better ways around both of those threats - in fact if one was using Blissey and failed to double switch out of those then you'd (a) learn that lesson damn quick, or (b) probably want to find a better option that won't guaranteed be a liability against STag'ers than Blissey.

I'm fairly indifferent on having her to unranked given that between us we've named a few (barely) relevant niches over Chansey or other normal special walls, but despite all that I find it hard to see her relevance in the current state of OU.

 

[Analytic]

Alakazam A- -> B+


One reason why zam inst worth A- its so predictable sash and LO are the only sets so you all ways know whats its going to do theres no surprise you see zam you a into you spdef wall tread averted yea it gets pyshock but most spdef walls like spdef skarm or clefable have some /lots of physical defense to deal with that secoundly zam is so easy to pursuit trap if it LO witch is the best imo because otherwise it lacks damage.

Um, not entirely true. I disagree on the fact that it should drop because of the fact that it gets walled by certain pokemon. Clefable might wall it to a good extent, but I don't think Skarmory is the best of available answers to it out there. Alakazam gets Taunt too btw so it can squeeze out a 1v1 against Clefable.

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252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO

That's not bad by any means, wouldn't call Skarmory the best of answers to Alakazam.

Alakazam isn't as easy to Pursuit-trap as you seem to think it is. It's only outsped by Weavile, which is forced into a 50-50 because Alakazam could be Sashed, and not by the other Pursuit-trappers: Scizor and Tyranitar.

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252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 468-556 (137.2 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 416-494 (121.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

One of sash zam's strong points was revenge killing set up sweepers but hes strugles with that too

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252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 133-157 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 138-163 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Well. I doubt that the M-Altaria set, apologies if it doesn't, outspeeds Alakazam after one DD. If that's the case, it'll be able to get off around 80%, which is amazing if you ask me.

And dude, why are you listing SpD Talonflame as a set up sweeper? I mean granted that it can run Bulk Up or SD on the set, the main set is: Taunt/Roost/Brave Bird/Will-O-Wisp.

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252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 205-243 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the set which deserves the name of a set up sweeper. It is a known fact that it struggles against SpD Talonflame, so I'm pretty sure that it's not a good enough reason for it to drop because I'm sure the VR team wouldn't let it have risen in the first place.

It may struggle vs things like Weavile, Tornadus-T, M-Manectric, and M-Lopunny, but it performs fantastic vs things like: Lati@s, Keldeo, Raikou, Starmie, Garchomp (Don't forget HP Ice, not so predictable now eh?), Gengar, Magnezone, Tyranitar, and should stay in A-.

It's fantastic speed tier combined with its great SpA Stat makes it a brilliant pokemon to use, and it deserves the current rank it is in. The fact that it performs pretty well against balanced teams just add to its credibility.

Kek.

 

[Martin]

Can I ask what Blissey does that Chansey doesn't? Chansey itself is a B mon, which is a fine placement, but it directly outclasses Blissey. I know Blissey is only D rank and D mons aren't expected to be 'good', but at least the rest of the mons in D have a niche that sets them apart, whereas Blissey has absolutely nothing.

Unrank Blissey.


EDIT: obviously I'm aware it can hold an item, but what item would make it worth using above Chansey x_x

I've been messing around with Blissey and I've had success with Shed Shell. Pairing it with a pursuit trapper such as Scarf/BandTar on stall and semistall prevents Gothitelle and Wobbuffet from ruining your day, which is huge considering both what they can do to stall and semistall and the fact that the blobs naturally lure both of the aforementioned trappers. Also, I've seen people talk about a Calm Mind set that acts as a stallbreaker on stall teams, similarly to Crocune, which exchanges STAB Scald and physical bulk for significantly better special bulk, reliable recovery and room for coverage (I'd assume any two of the elemental beams and/or Shadow Ball). While I've not tried the CM set yet (although it is certainly very enticing) and cannot get an accurate gauge on its effectiveness without doing so (the CM talk from me is all based on what I've heard from people atm), it has a genuine niche over Chansey before consideration of CM in that it can escape from Goth and enable your team to remove it (although this alone probably shouldn't put it above D).

 

[Punchshroom]

And dude, why are you listing SpD Talonflame as a set up sweeper? I mean granted that it can run Bulk Up or SD on the set, the main set is: Taunt/Roost/Brave Bird/Will-O-Wisp.

As far as I know there isn't really a "main set" on SpD Talon; either of those moves are fair game on SpD Talon, the most replaceable move being Taunt, and you'd be foolish to disregard SpD Talon as a setup sweeper.

I've seen some arguments on Serperior for A and I'll have to agree. It's one of the most solid wincons in the tier and having a Grass-type that slots in nicely on offense is extremely useful thanks to its resists. Serperior can also easily fit in 'tech moves' like Glare, Knock Off, Taunt, and even Giga Drain at pretty much no cost at all, making it all the more easier to get rid of Serperior's checks when Serperior can also chip in in the process of cripping them or wearing them down, or in the case of Giga Drain gives Serp a good amount of sustain.

 

[kek123]

Um, not entirely true. I disagree on the fact that it should drop because of the fact that it gets walled by certain pokemon. Clefable might wall it to a good extent, but I don't think Skarmory is the best of available answers to it out there. Alakazam gets Taunt too btw so it can squeeze out a 1v1 against Clefable.

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO

That's not bad by any means, wouldn't call Skarmory the best of answers to Alakazam.

Alakazam isn't as easy to Pursuit-trap as you seem to think it is. It's only outsped by Weavile, which is forced into a 50-50 because Alakazam could be Sashed, and not by the other Pursuit-trappers: Scizor and Tyranitar.

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252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 468-556 (137.2 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 416-494 (121.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 133-157 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 138-163 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Well. I doubt that the M-Altaria set, apologies if it doesn't, outspeeds Alakazam after one DD. If that's the case, it'll be able to get off around 80%, which is amazing if you ask me.

And dude, why are you listing SpD Talonflame as a set up sweeper? I mean granted that it can run Bulk Up or SD on the set, the main set is: Taunt/Roost/Brave Bird/Will-O-Wisp.

Hide

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 205-243 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the set which deserves the name of a set up sweeper. It is a known fact that it struggles against SpD Talonflame, so I'm pretty sure that it's not a good enough reason for it to drop because I'm sure the VR team wouldn't let it have risen in the first place.

It may struggle vs things like Weavile, Tornadus-T, M-Manectric, and M-Lopunny, but it performs fantastic vs things like: Lati@s, Keldeo, Raikou, Starmie, Garchomp (Don't forget HP Ice, not so predictable now eh?), Gengar, Magnezone, Tyranitar, and should stay in A-.

It's fantastic speed tier combined with its great SpA Stat makes it a brilliant pokemon to use, and it deserves the current rank it is in. The fact that it performs pretty well against balanced teams just add to its credibility.

Kek.

first why dosnt skarmory have leftovers (i know some skarms like to run shed shell and some rocky helmit but for most is leftovers) on your calc secoundly focus blast is a 70% acc move you roost up untill they miss then iron head then start the roost processes once more thirdly normal zam donst carry tuant very often tho mega does but that not what imtalking about .also you go of the that zam uses HP fire alot when id say the most Common is HP ice . about the pursuit trappers yea you cant trap zam with t-tar no even scarf tar becuase zam is faster then scarf tar but you can trap him with scizor,mega metagross weavile also you point out what you think zam is good agaist .
''but it performs fantastic vs things like: Lati@s, Keldeo,Raikou,Starmie,Garchomp'' well i would'nt i say agree
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 187-221 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 242-286 (96.4 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
i would'nt say zam is good agaist latias

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 369-437 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 250-295 (99.6 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
yea and even if hes HP ice garchomp live and HOKO's theses rolls ant in zams favor zams also some times of the time zam dosnt run HP ice so il calc Psychic
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 207-243 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 199-234 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 250-296 (99.6 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
half the think you listed zam is lousing to! 1v1
because of AV and some many pursuit trappers zam cant do they things it could in other gens!
Thanks for reading! like i said ''i think zam is lousing its magic touch'' (on a side note i think mega zam is really good now and it deserves A+) likes it has now