Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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What??? You are actually counting Hawlucha LMAO

Anyway, to get to the more serious reason I am reposting.......
Honckrow is very nice at times, but is more frail than staraptor? Sucker punch is far from reliable but in instances is fairly easy to play with unless you are stuck in a clear 50/50 situation. Staraptor very heavily dents electrics and virtually no electric outside of magnezone can switch into the BB/DE combo, ad mag fears the CC anyway. Staraptor is cleary better unless chemistry wise honch is a better fit. In the end staraptor is a very underrated threat that I think deserves to rise
Not sure why you're counting Hawlucha out considering it's a pretty decent cleaner but anyway...

I fail to see what Staraptor does better than any other wallbreaker. Even completely disregarding any breaker in the A ranks, in the B ranks we have a lot of equally powerful breakers, if not more. Examples of these being Diggersby, Victini, Dragonite, Dragalge, Mega Heracross, Mamoswine, Mega Garchomp, Hydreigon, Omastar, Crawdaunt and Tyrantrum, with the vast majority of these being more unpredictable and providing more defensive synergy or offensive utility(i.e. priority) than Staraptor. Staraptor literally can't break any wall that those can't as well, and is way frailer and more predictable than them. Hell even C+ rank has better breakers than it such as Infernape and Entei.
 

TPP

White Knight
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Is it possible to get a list for discussion points? Right now there's a lot of random noms over the place and I feel like we're gonna get nowhere...

Anyways, I'm gonna support Skarmory to A+. I've been using it a ton recently, and here's 1 good reason: it's a Defog user that doesn't lose to Weavile. Besides checking Weavile (defensive sets, and not the special defensive set since it can get 2HKO'd) it's able to check a ton of things on offense like Azumarill, Mega Lopunny, Excadrill, Lando-T, Scizor, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Diggersby, and other physical mons too. It's got a really good movepool including Defog, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Whirlwind, Taunt, Counter, Iron Head, Brave Bird, Toxic, and Roost. It can be difficult to see what it has for the final 2 slots since Roost and Defog are pretty much required, so there's a lot of possibilities for it, and if Ferrothorn can be A+, then so can Skarmory. It can do nearly anything a team needs, whether it's hazard removal (Defog), hazards (stealth rock, spikes), phasing (whirlwind), checking certain physical mons mentioned above, and even kill stuff like Zard X with Sturdy + Counter.
to A+
 

bludz

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lol yeah the metagame adapted to it a lot at one point but its pretty centralizing again.

I mean it is the entire reason certain pokemon are viable (cough Shedinja) and is honestly the only legit mega on stall these days. Those other builds just get smacked by simple strategies like Bisharp + Spikes. I support Sableye back to S, it invalidates so many passive balance builds that can't get hazards up
 

DennisEG

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Watching a few post above, i've notice gastro is nominated from B- --> B which in my humble opinion is an underrated wall, if only this little slug can learn stealth rock will be on every team i swear, but following up with the speach of Klefkiholder i really support this one, no only because is able to set up on the bulkies build that people spam now on days like Clef/Hippo/T-wave Slowbro so you can curse up and being a huge threat to this types of builds. In terms of defensive really cover a good portion of threats like Electric types are walled completly (except GK thundy ofc) and bulky water types like offensive starmie or Keldeo.

TP is a great guy but Skarmory is far for being A+ rank, yes check a lot of stuff right now but is a momentum killer, you cannot throw an Skarmory and balance/Bulky offense build because only make you lose momentum and if you dont packing Whirlwind even become a set up fodder, no to mentioned that is an invitation for sableye.

And yeah what the hell Sableye isnt S rank, I swear this thing is annoying af .
 
Watching a few post above, i've notice gastro is nominated from B- --> B which in my humble opinion is an underrated wall, if only this little slug can learn stealth rock will be on every team i swear, but following up with the speach of Klefkiholder i really support this one, no only because is able to set up on the bulkies build that people spam now on days like Clef/Hippo/T-wave Slowbro so you can curse up and being a huge threat to this types of builds. In terms of defensive really cover a good portion of threats like Electric types are walled completly (except GK thundy ofc) and bulky water types like offensive starmie or Keldeo.

TP is a great guy but Skarmory is far for being A+ rank, yes check a lot of stuff right now but is a momentum killer, you cannot throw an Skarmory and balance/Bulky offense build because only make you lose momentum and if you dont packing Whirlwind even become a set up fodder, no to mentioned that is an invitation for sableye.

And yeah what the hell Sableye isnt S rank, I swear this thing is annoying af .
Um, I think that was a joke lol.
Seriously, I think that Skarm should be A+ because physical walls are in such high demand right now, and its defensive typing is really great. as a quick demo of tankiness, observe:
Victini (OU Stallbreaker)V-create75.4 - 88.6%guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
yeah, i know its not all that useful, but still, surviving the most powerful S.E physical attack IN THE GAME (more or less), along with his awesome general utility, seems A+ worthy to me. who cares whether A+ is to bloated, IMO. if something's fantastic all around but not on the level as the S-ranks, it should be A+.
(also, note the same avi as denniseg!)
 

brittney♥kitty

Banned deucer.
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Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Well the metagame has shifted, and the metagame trends have impacted Mega Sableye, that's undeniable. We're in an age of pokemon where fat ground types are everywhere, especially those who set up rocks and in that metagame Mega Sableye thrives.

The huge usage of Garchomp is great for Mega Sableye, as it'll most likely get beaten 1v1 besides the Lum SD set, which isn't all that common when you're giving up the opportunity to run Tank chomp. The increase of Manaphy hurts it however, as both Manaphy sets beat Mega Sableye pretty reliably. But the decline of Mega Altaria is great for it, Mega Altaria being one of the sturdier counters to Mega Sableye, and no, the CM set is not the reason Mega Sableye should be S, Calm Mind Sableye is barely A, maybe A-, the set that's actually good for Mega Sableye is the utility one,

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Foul Play
- Fake Out/Metal burst/Toxic/Knock off

Knock Off is mainly used for utility purposes, removing items from Pokemon that like to switch into Mega Sableye such as Clefable, Talonflame, and Tentacruel. Will-O-Wisp is also great utility and team support, making a lot of physical attackers a non-factor and also chipping away at switch-ins. Recover acts as reliable recovery, which is needed for Mega Sableye to act as a defensive Pokemon, especially given its lack of Leftovers. Foul Play is the preferred move in the last slot because it stops Talonflame and Mega Charizard X from using Mega Sableye as setup fodder. On the other hand, Toxic cripples Fire-type switch-ins as well as Unaware Clefable lacking Heal Bell. Snatch can be useful to steal recovery moves, enabling Mega Sableye to get its health back all the while wasting the opponent's turn. This is especially helpful when the opposing Pokemon is burned, as it will be unable to recover until it gets KOed from the residual damage. Snatch can also steal setup moves from the likes of Togekiss and Manaphy. However, this requires good prediction to achieve. Metal Burst is a rather niche option on Mega Sableye that fits more on balanced teams than full stall teams; it enables Mega Sableye to weaken a lot of checks such as Mega Charizard Y, which in turn can help out a teammate. Finally, Fake Out enables Mega Sableye to Mega Evolve more easily on the first turn when facing a Pokemon that can immediately threaten it, such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Lopunny, or Volcarona, while getting off some very small chip damage.

Not entirely sure where I want it, but some seasoned players have been pushing it for S so yeah. lets go with that.
 
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Charmflash

big-eyed turtle
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Hello,
I would like to give my opinion on some mons that I think are ranked wrong (+reasoning)
Now first of all:


Mega-Sceptile to B+ from B

Now this is something I really think should happen. I find it unfair when people say that serperior is a better sceptile that takes no mega stone because its completely wrong. While serperior does have a better ability Mega-Sceptile has the much better speed, higher raw power (it can ohko mega manectric / mega lopunny / mega alakazam from full life), voltswitch stop as well as an AMAZING movepool with tons of coverage and mixed options that include EQ, HP fire (this is listed so you realized that its an option), Rock Slide, Sword Dance, 3 viable Grass Stab options, Iron Tail, Focus Blast...
It has a lot of fun against offense especially with hazards up.
I had a diskussion with TDK a while ago and his reasoning to why mega sceptile shouldnt go up was that once mega sceptile meets a fairy it is in trouble. That however is actually not true. I think I dont have to say why Mega-Scpetiles matchup against Azumaril or Diancie is amazing but as for clefable and Maltaria mega sceptile can 2hko unaware clefable with leaf storm and ohko Maltaria before mega evolution with dpulse if rocks are up. Add all of that to the fact that Mega-Sceptile gets Iron Tail and you should see why fairys should fear Msceptile ;) True, sylveon and togekiss are a bit worse of a matchup if you lack iron tail but luckily those arent that common and you have 5 more slots in your team.
Here is a rmt that I did a while ago with Msceptile that brought me to top 16: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1800-sceptilyzed.3542571/

Mega-Pinsir to B+ from A-

Mega Pinsir´s days of glory are over. We are currently in a much faster metagame where base 105 speed is bad for a sweeper. While on paper it can still hit hard and handles for example heatran much better then its superior version Talonflame in reality it never really does anything at all. Its movepool is predictable, it cant burn its switchins like talon can, it requires a mega evolution, and even if its return is MUCH stronger then talons BB Mega Pinsir will have to use quick attack if it plans on sweeping due to its low speed therefore you could just go for talon anyways since BB hits harder then pinsirs Quick Attack.
Therefore I do not think that pinsir has enough strenghts to make up for its low speed, weakness to SR and competite with talon for it to stay in the A tier.

Klefki to A+ from A-

Klefki always had clear strenghts and weaknesses. It can do a relativ limited amount of things however it is exceptional at them. Prankster thunderwave is very strong and can be resorted to in case of emergency. Besides that its ability to prankster screens, negate one of its already few weaknesses if needed, set up prankster spikes while scaring off the dominant magic bounce user (sableye and diancie) makes it to a great supportive mon in balance and even HO.

Mega-Sableye stays in A+

During the time everybody was using Msableye I thought it was broken. However with time we started to addapt and finded solutions against it. The fact that manaphy and clefable are so great and dominant really annoys Msableye as it cant really do much against those. While it has great positive traits such as walling half of the tier while having the only reliable magic bounce user as well as being the best mega on stall the presence of manaphy, clefable and even charyzard(s) lets it stay in a+
 
Hello,
I would like to give my opinion on some mons that I think are ranked wrong (+reasoning)
Now first of all:


Mega-Sceptile to B+ from B

Now this is something I really think should happen. I find it unfair when people say that serperior is a better sceptile that takes no mega stone because its completely wrong. While serperior does have a better ability Mega-Sceptile has the much better speed, higher raw power (it can ohko mega manectric / mega lopunny / mega alakazam from full life), voltswitch stop as well as an AMAZING movepool with tons of coverage and mixed options that include EQ, HP fire (this is listed so you realized that its an option), Rock Slide, Sword Dance, 3 viable Grass Stab options, Iron Tail, Focus Blast...
It has a lot of fun against offense especially with hazards up.
I had a diskussion with TDK a while ago and his reasoning to why mega sceptile shouldnt go up was that once mega sceptile meets a fairy it is in trouble. That however is actually not true. I think I dont have to say why Mega-Scpetiles matchup against Azumaril or Diancie is amazing but as for clefable and Maltaria mega sceptile can 2hko unaware clefable with leaf storm and ohko Maltaria before mega evolution with dpulse if rocks are up. Add all of that to the fact that Mega-Sceptile gets Iron Tail and you should see why fairys should fear Msceptile ;) True, sylveon and togekiss are a bit worse of a matchup if you lack iron tail but luckily those arent that common and you have 5 more slots in your team.
Here is a rmt that I did a while ago with Msceptile that brought me to top 16: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1800-sceptilyzed.3542571/

Mega-Pinsir to B+ from A-

Mega Pinsir´s days of glory are over. We are currently in a much faster metagame where base 105 speed is bad for a sweeper. While on paper it can still hit hard and handles for example heatran much better then its superior version Talonflame in reality it never really does anything at all. Its movepool is predictable, it cant burn its switchins like talon can, it requires a mega evolution, and even if its return is MUCH stronger then talons BB Mega Pinsir will have to use quick attack if it plans on sweeping due to its low speed therefore you could just go for talon anyways since BB hits harder then pinsirs Quick Attack.
Therefore I do not think that pinsir has enough strenghts to make up for its low speed, weakness to SR and competite with talon for it to stay in the A tier.

Klefki to A+ from A-

Klefki always had clear strenghts and weaknesses. It can do a relativ limited amount of things however it is exceptional at them. Prankster thunderwave is very strong and can be resorted to in case of emergency. Besides that its ability to prankster screens, negate one of its already few weaknesses if needed, set up prankster spikes while scaring off the dominant magic bounce user (sableye and diancie) makes it to a great supportive mon in balance and even HO.

Mega-Sableye stays in A+

During the time everybody was using Msableye I thought it was broken. However with time we started to addapt and finded solutions against it. The fact that manaphy and clefable are so great and dominant really annoys Msableye as it cant really do much against those. While it has great positive traits such as walling half of the tier while having the only reliable magic bounce user as well as being the best mega on stall the presence of manaphy, clefable and even charyzard(s) lets it stay in a+

All you are doing is cherry-picking points that support your claims, especially with Mega Sceptile and Mega Pinsir. If you are going to make an argument, don't just state everything that supports your claim from the most linear perspective possible.

Moving to more specific. You stated that Mega Pinsir's movepool is predictable, but that is not necessarily a bad thing, for Mega Pinsir is still one of the more difficult Pokemon to switch into. Mega Pinsir covers most of what it needs in four moveslots alone, which is better than Pokemon like Ferrothorn or Kyurem-B whose moveslots are far more dependent on overall team structure. You stated that it requires a Mega Evolution, but so does Zard X and requiring a Mega Evolution is not viewed as a negative trait. Taking up a Mega Slot is more of a con when the Pokemon's assets are usually not worth the Mega Slot it occupies, such as Mega Blastoise or Mega Bannette. Mega Pinsir still puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams, and while it is not as dominant as it used to be, it is still far more threatening than Pokemon like Mega Latias, Mega Gallade, Feraligatr, and Dragonite, all of which occupy B+ Rank.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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So I think there is a distinction between a pokemon that can be made to work in OU and one that should be on the viability rankings. This has kind of been touched on with the introduction of E rank and then its subsequent removal.

That is to say there are pokemon that can be used in the OU tier even if their niche is very small. Now the question becomes "how small do we let it become before it's not rankable?" Yes, I don't think that everything that has a niche should be ranked.

Allow me to give an example:

I can make a team with Vaporeon in place of Alomomola or Sylveon, show replays where its ability of Water Absorb came in handy, and say that it should be ranked in OU. The problem with this is that Vaporeon's niche is very small - but undeniable! It is a bulky Heal Bell user and Wish Passer (full cleric) with the ability Water Absorb. Its main competition as clerics would be things like Unaware Clefable, Alomomola and Sylveon. The issue with its niche is that its role compression - in this case a cleric with Water Absorb - doesn't offer much over other clerics which do not mind taking Scalds most of the time. Most of the time you will be ok with one of the two Fairy clerics or Alomomola. The primary differences being typing and ability between Vaporeon and the fairies (with Vaporeon actually having better bulk), and then a smaller difference between it and Alomomola being the ability.

This is not a perfect example but let me demonstrate the issue I have with Torkoal.

As a Stealth Rock setter it suffers direct competition from Heatran, which has better overall bulk and a superior typing, speed, movepool (outside of Rapid Spin and one or two other moves) and attacking power.

As a Spinner it suffers direct competition from Forrettress, which can also both set Rocks and Spin. Hey, Excadrill can do this too, and even Donphan can do it and it is not ranked.

You can see here already that its niche has become something of a small crevice between other ranked pokemon (a couple of which are quite good). This niche being so small implies that the role compression it offers is not all that important because there are other pokemon which compress some of these roles but not all of them.

To come full circle I don't think that this niche is large enough to warrant it being ranked. I can build a team with a pokemon that isn't listed on the viability rankings and make it do its job -- that doesn't necessarily mean it should be ranked. You can make similar arguments to rank things like Claydol and Donphan, but how good is their niche? How big is it? Understandably these things cannot be quantified easily and that is why it is necessary that our viability rankings team be composed of intelligent and knowledgeable players who understand the metagame well and can accordingly make decisions on pokemon's rankings. I may disagree with ranking Torkoal but they may deem its niche worthy.
 

ginganinja

It's all coming back to me now
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mega sableye isnt S rank becuase clefable it a thing you know that mon that is already S rank yea him also zard x unless your running foul play witch isnt that common any more and let make it a triple talon flame bluk up and SD unless your running foul play but if it bulk up foul play dosnt matter any way.
also being 2 shot by keldeo when you max spdef and hp (+spdef nature) isnt a good sign
br0

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ugh, I had to run that through spell check before I could decode exactly what you said / meant.

Also yeah AM told me off for posting 1 liners and not using big words so I need to explain Mega Sableye properly :(

Mega Sableye is basically designed to shut down the hazard game, and put it in your own favour. It also has the ability to shut down and take a massive dump over most of the common stall breakers within the generation (ie stuff like Taunt/Toxic mons get laughed at unless you can hit Sableye hard enough). Its a strategy enabler, it reduces counterplay to some of the more common team styles out there, and when teambuilding you really need to heavily consider bringing in taunters / SR setter that can actually hand it. If you don't see the influence of Mega Sableye centralising the hazard metagame, then I really don't need to say anything else.

Br0
 
Yo so I deleted a bunch of comments related to Torkoal discussion, but I left bludz comment there cause it's pretty valid, and it's a thing him and I have both discussed in the past (we talk a lot about viability rankings). I've made plenty of bad shit work, that doesn't mean they should be ranked. That attests to more player ability or a players incapability of handling a niche threat.

brittney♥kitty Henry may be running the thread along with TDK but I'm one of the people who is running the OU forum. Not to get on my high horse or anything but whether or not you care about my opinion doesn't matter cause the shots are being called by the OU Moderator team. Love it or hate it, true story.

Also yeah AM told me off for posting 1 liners and not using big words so I need to explain Mega Sableye properly :(
I didn't do this lol.

Yeah M-Sableye should be S though. Not sure what I need to explain honestly.
 

brittney♥kitty

Banned deucer.
Yo so I deleted a bunch of comments related to Torkoal discussion, but I left bludz comment there cause it's pretty valid, and it's a thing him and I have both discussed in the past (we talk a lot about viability rankings). I've made plenty of bad shit work, that doesn't mean they should be ranked. That attests to more player ability or a players incapability of handling a niche threat.

brittney♥kitty Henry may be running the thread along with TDK but I'm one of the people who is running the OU forum. Not to get on my high horse or anything but whether or not you care about my opinion doesn't matter cause the shots are being called by the OU Moderator team. Love it or hate it, true story.

I didn't do this lol.

Yeah M-Sableye should be S though. Not sure what I need to explain honestly.


making something work is the definition of viability -_-'
 
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making something work is the definition of viability -_-'
Lol dude you sort of need to relax trying to throw literal defining points at me as if I don't understand the concept of what viable means. First off the VR is a general snapshot of what works in the metagame, which brings me back to the point you need to chill with hyping up torkoal over what you practically just presented anything I can read on an analysis, no shit it spins and has lava plume solid detective work oh my. I'm not open to the idea of just putting whatever mon you used to beat a group of circlejerking goth stall hating individuals you managed to beat in a room tour that holds no legitimate weight in anything, like literally has no merit to it at all. Show me replays, as in good ones, high ladder ones, tournament level ones, then maybe I can actually entertain a serious discussion here instead of you hyping it, the usual culprits of replying back having a pissy fit about definitions or whatever bullshit this thread finds itself in 95% of the time, and me inevitably deleting it.

When I show this to a new guy who's trying to get into OU I'm not going to suggest him that Torkoal is a good idea or is worth the time and effort. ben gay made pikachu work....in a tournament game, and we're not ranking that for obvious reasons. Please stop.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Allow me to give an example:

I can make a team with Vaporeon in place of Alomomola or Sylveon, show replays where its ability of Water Absorb came in handy, and say that it should be ranked in OU. The problem with this is that Vaporeon's niche is very small - but undeniable! It is a bulky Heal Bell user and Wish Passer (full cleric) with the ability Water Absorb. Its main competition as clerics would be things like Unaware Clefable, Alomomola and Sylveon. The issue with its niche is that its role compression - in this case a cleric with Water Absorb - doesn't offer much over other clerics which do not mind taking Scalds most of the time. Most of the time you will be ok with one of the two Fairy clerics or Alomomola. The primary differences being typing and ability between Vaporeon and the fairies (with Vaporeon actually having better bulk), and then a smaller difference between it and Alomomola being the ability.
I can agree with the general point you're making (a lot) but I don't like the example.
Vaporeon is nice for the reasons you stated but also cuz its a cleric and a bulky water that isn't fucked by gengar; slowbro, alomo, quagsire, and maybe mana/starmie (if you wanna count those) all get 2hko'd, toyed with via taunt/sub/other shit, or just can't switch into gengar, but vaporeon can do that with little investment and 2hko back with scald+LO damage. Not tryna advocate it too hard but just wanna say that this niche is actually worth it being ranked, gengar isn't an easy mon to handle.

In response to the nom for Mega pinsir dropping, I think Mega Pinsir has actually gotten better recently. Partly because the more popular Sdef>def skarm with iron head>brave bird doesn't exactly stop m.pinsir, but mainly because Bulky Chomp has more or less replaced bulky Lando-T. And this, despite all the recoil, is a very good thing for Pinsir.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Instead of struggling with bulky lando-T that can OHKO it, you instead only have to deal with something that's cleanly 2hko'd and can't do much back aside from Endure or Fire blast (the former which is risky cuz SD if real)
And this is the bulky wall of choice on many offense/balance teams, something that can hardly do anything back to you except hope you hurt yourself. Not that the recoil is a big of a deal against Pinsir as it may seem either, Aerilate Quick attack is pretty strong and its bug/flying typing was never tanking any hits to start with.
However increase in popularity of shit like weavile and klefki certainly hold it back, so given the changes in the meta it oughta stay where it is. A-, given its performance and amount of support required, is a solid ranking.

EDIT: So i dont post right after

Gengar: A -> A-
Some people (including myself initially) wanted this thing to drop mostly cuz weavile and torn-t and increased popularity in zam but it can still beat av torn-t with SR+icy wind+sludge wave, and weavile and zam still don't switch-in. It's also the only remarkable offensive ghost, which is valuable given how solid ghost is offensively. It can stay.

Slowbro: A -> A-
Nah. Alongside quaggy its the premier bulky water of the tier, handling char-x, birds, exca, etc and can spread para and CM to actually pose a threat. I dont think any meta shifts have gone against it either, CM slowbro does beat CM clefable. It's also hilarious when weavile tries to pursuit you as you mega evolve and does 20%

Togekiss: B+ -> A-
Fuck Abr Fuck Stall raise this thing. (Also NastyPass is sweet and it has lots of options/moves to work with.)

Celebi: A- -> B+

Volcarona: A- -> B+
I don't use this thing enough to have a great opinion on it but although its customizable and shit it still needs a lot of support (talon, chansey, dragons, azu, status, etc) I'm ok with it dropping.

Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B
I think it's dropping a little too far lol its raw base stats should keep it atleast at B+. That said i'd be ok with a drop too.

Mega-Swampert: B+ -> B-
Faces competition with swift swimmers AND other megas on rain teams, i'd be ok with it moving down too.
 
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Changes:

Mega-Sableye: A+ -> S
Hoopa-Unbound: S -> A+
Gastrodon: B- -> B
Slowking: B+ -> B
Mega Sceptile: B -> B-

Discussion points:<br />
<br />
Gengar: A -> A-
Mega Slowbro: A -> A-
Togekiss: B+ -> A-
Celebi: A- -> B+
Volcarona: A- -> B+
Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B
Mega-Swampert: B+ -> B-

AM Edit: Oh yeah I did the changes.
 
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I know there are things such as Weavile, Hoopa-Unbound, and Bisharp that are quite abundant in the tier, but that shouldn't hamper Gengar's ranking. Gengar still sits at a great base 110 speed tying with Lati@s, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, etc. Gengar also has great moves in its arsenal. Focus Miss Blast to nail steel types like Heatran, Sludge Wave to dismantle fairies such as Clefable & Mega Altaria, Will-O-Wisp to burn Bisharp and friends, Taunt or Pain Split to bop stall, and so on. That base 130 special attack it possesses is also gonna HURT the opponent. The meta changes may have been unfavorable to it, but I believe that Gengar should remain in A.
 
I spoke about it last time it was a discussion point but gallade should remain B+. Yes we all know it lost its hype but it is still a sitting in the 110 speed tier and 165 base attack with a +2 is still scary for balance to switch into. It does have to thrive on balance/bulky offense because HO won't let it set up, and stall will 99% carry sableye, who shuts this thing down hard, but with balance rising in popularity, that's a point in gallades favor. The added bulk does go a little unnoticed when it does actually help it live some strong neutral attacks, like LO Thunderus's thunderbolt, Latios Draco/psyshock and Lopunnys return. It may not take them well, but those are just examples of the bulk coming into play. I posted about this nom earlier and I don't wanna be the guy to just relink his old post, but if needed I can. Gallade does have its problems such as being revenge killed fairly easily if it is attacked while setting up, and being a fighting type makes it so talonflame will always force it out, but it has dropped enough and B+ is where it belongs.
 
Nice slate.

-> A-
Completely agree. It can't switch in, base 110 speed isn't outstanding in such an offensive meta, stuff like Torn-T, Raikou, Weavile and ScarfTar are common, and the level of priority is going through the roof. It can't even threaten the majority of stall teams. The only niche potentially keeping it in A is the ability to check Fairies, but from what I've seen even that niche is being eroded, with CM Clefable getting less common in favour of SR + TWave sets (reflecting the predominance of M-Sab and again the more offensive meta).

-> A-
Good Pokemon, massive opportunity cost. When you usually don't want to M-Evolve for most of a game anyway, why not just use regular Slowbro and one of the many other ridiculously threatening Megas? Hoopa hurt it briefly but I don't think that's much of a factor in why it should move down.

-> A-
I'm a little on the fence about this one. I think the primary argument for this move would be how well the NP + Heal Bell set pressures M-Sableye stall, especially with Shed Shell (or just paired with something like Manaphy). The usual Paraflinch strategy is also pretty effective rn. You can't overstate how much the Flying type weaknesses suck, especially when you consider the massive opportunity cost involved in not using Clefable, but I'm leaning towards supporting a move up.

-> B+
Again not sure. The only effective set I've seen is Baton Pass, but it's a good set, and comes with some decent defensive utility. Baton Pass somewhat mitigates the influx of Pursuit trappers in this metagame as well. You still have theoretical versatility with SR, TWave, Healing Wish, and coverage options, but in practise they tend not to be effective compared to Ferrothorn, which just checks a much wider range of threats (Kyu-B, Mana, DD Malt) without the liability of the Psychic typing.

-> B+
I'm not sold that this has gotten worse. Passho variants don't care so much about Azumarill, and despite the meta becoming more offensive it still manages to find set-up opportunities. RockyChomp can be a problem, but it also discourages Talonflame so it's not entirely a hindrance. I've also used a full defensive set with M-Sableye a couple of times and it works really well, countering Weavile, Bisharp and so on if Rocks can be kept off.

-> B
I literally never see this thing. High competition from other Fighters, doesn't have much of a niche. It's faster than Medicham and more threatening than Lopunny, but in practise, M-Medi performs better against both defense and offense thanks to its dual priority, and M-Lopunny's ridiculous speed and versatility make it a much better choice. That's without mentioning stuff like Keldeo which has a much more useful defensive role.

-> B-
Swift Swim is the only relevant set (Curse is really poor), and yeah it isn't amazing. In certain match-ups the extra bulk compared to other Swift Swimmers is handy, and walling Electric types is obviously great. But it's relatively weak and struggles to break Water resists, and more importantly, having to wait a turn to M-Evolve before abusing Swift Swim doesn't fit with the hyperoffensive nature of Rain at all. Still has a good niche, especially for Rain teams which can't fit SR anywhere else or struggle with Electrics, so I'd say B, not B-, would be a better fit for now.
 
I spoke about it last time it was a discussion point but gallade should remain B+. Yes we all know it lost its hype but it is still a sitting in the 110 speed tier and 165 base attack with a +2 is still scary for balance to switch into. It does have to thrive on balance/bulky offense because HO won't let it set up, and stall will 99% carry sableye, who shuts this thing down hard, but with balance rising in popularity, that's a point in gallades favor. The added bulk does go a little unnoticed when it does actually help it live some strong neutral attacks, like LO Thunderus's thunderbolt, Latios Draco/psyshock and Lopunnys return. It may not take them well, but those are just examples of the bulk coming into play. I posted about this nom earlier and I don't wanna be the guy to just relink his old post, but if needed I can. Gallade does have its problems such as being revenge killed fairly easily if it is attacked while setting up, and being a fighting type makes it so talonflame will always force it out, but it has dropped enough and B+ is where it belongs.
The problem with Gallade is that Mega Eye and Fairies has relatively little troubles with it ( Mega Cham is harder to switch into unless the opponent has a Ghost. Dual priority also means huge chip damage). Base 110 is high but this also means it ties with Gengar ( who is dropping anyway ), Mega Diancie, Lati@s and Mega Gross. In this meta, Gallade's low physical bulk also does it no favours when trying to tank priority moves while cleaning. Being outsped by stuff like Mega Lop, Talonflame, Torn-T, Weavile, and Thundy also means it's not going to stick around long.
 
: A -> A-

Gengar may be my absolute favorite Pokemon, but I can't deny his set of 3 flaws. The first is that pitiful bulk. Priority is Gengar's biggest problem and it usually tears him apart. Talonflame is the first to come to mind, as is Bisharp. Thankfully, this is somewhat remedied by Gengar's Ghost Typing, giving him an immunity to Mach Punch and Extreme Speed. The second is the Pursuit Weakness. Funny thing is, though, no Pursuit Trapper wants to directly switch into Gengar. Scizor is terrorized by Hidden Power Fire, while Bisharp and Tyranitar don't want to be around a Needs-More-Focus-to-Hit Blast. The final flaw is the speed. 110 is good, yes, but not as fast as other threats like Alakazam, Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Weavile, Tornadus, Thundurus, etc. He still outspeeds Sweeper Garchomp (rare, but still used somehow) and Speed Ties with Latios, which shares similar flaws (bar the bulk, of course).

Now if we were judging Gengar solely as a Sweeper and nothing else, I would certainly agree with a drop. The problem is, though, is that Gengar is much like a roulette. You typically won't know know what he will use, bar Shadow Ball on a normal day. Is it a Life Orb Sweeper? SubDisable? Taunt+Will-o-Wisp? Destiny Bond? Hex? You just won't know until later. Gengar remains unpredictable in a meta where many can predict what a Pokemon will do; Garchomp is almost always TankChomp, Heatran is typically Stealth Rock and can pack Taunt or Earth Power, Charizard-X is Dragon Dancer, bulky Talonflame, Azumarill is either Choice Band or Belly Drum, Landorus-T is either bulky Stealth Rock setter or Scarf Revenge Killer, etc. There aren't many Pokemon that can keep opponents guessing (Mega Altaria can at first, for instance), so that's a bonus. Gengar also has a fantastic Special Attack that can push its way through opponents, so we can't discount that. Not to mention that while the Ghost-Poison typing + Levitate gives it immunities to Normal, Fighting, and Ground, but also a quad-resist to U-Turn, a commonly spammed move. It also gives him an immunity to Toxic, which is a nice little bonus, but it also gives him that Fairy and Grass resist (no, I wouldn't switch this into Celebi or Serperior, but still). Gengar can still switch into some moves like Earthquake, Close Combat/Drain Punch, Extreme Speed, etc, and I'll admit those moves are becoming more rare, but those are still valuable opportunities. Name a single Pokemon, bar Chansey or Hippowdon, that wants to switch into Gengar and have any remote chance of being unscathed. Considering that Gengar learns Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb/Wave, Thunder/bolt, and Hidden Power Fire, it makes switching into difficult until you figure out what it is. I can understand why people want it lower, but I still look at it and think "keep it A".

: A -> A-

I cannot completely comment on Mega Slowbro, but I can easily say that it seems...useless. I mean, it IS a tanking behemoth from the watery depths, but it loses what makes Slowbro nearly unbreakable: Regenerator. Sure an immunity to crits is nice, but those are rare anyways. Basic Slowbro can switch out and reheal itself to come back and wreck again. I personally see this Mega less viable than the base forme, but that's just me. I can see a drop, but I need more time.

: B+ -> A-

When I attempt to describe Togekiss, the first word I can think of is "Self Sufficient". In many cases, Togekiss can set-up on any Pokemon, bar Ground and Electric-Types, and proceed to be the most annoying thing ever with ParaFlinch (I used a Bulky Calm Set, personally--best 20 minutes of breeding yet). Of course, it's not just relegated to ParaFlinch; Togekiss has the ability to run Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, and even...Aura Sphere, a move that makes Tyranitar regret switching in. Something to remember is that there is a reason why Togekiss is Borderline. It's a monster dressed up as a Fairy. The only move I can consistently see on EVERY set is Air Slash (thank you Serene Grace). Outside of that, it's hard to tell what it will use. Most will use the Nasty Plot+Heal Bell set, but then there are those that run oddballs to throw people off. Don't forget that this is a tank with access to reliable recovery in Roost. I want to see Togekiss go up a rank. Me, personally, I see A- being the perfect home.

: A- -> B+

It feels like hours ago I was arguing about Shaymin--now it's the Gen II pixie. Celebi is a Pokemon that can sweep, Baton Pass, tank, etc. The Grass-Psychic typing gives it an edge in attacking and, oddly enough, a unique defensive edge as well. Sadly, U-Turn and Pokemon more effective against it are on the rise, so seeing Celebi drop...isn't surprising. I'm on the fence still, though. Like Mega Slowbro, I need more time.

: A- -> B+

I'm behind the times with Volcarona, as I use a surprising bulky set to throw people off, but I see why people would want a drop. Volcarona is difficult to get out on the field due to its massive Stealth Rock Weakness, it needs a turn to set-up before truly attacking, things are out that can stop it (see Azumarill and Manaphy), but...that's not all bad. Simply support can alleviate this annoyance and, honestly, Volcarona is a beast to use as far as set-up sweepers go. Quiver Dance is all like "I'm Calm Mind, but MOAR SPED", which is truly stupidly good. It's a shame that most Pokemon above, see Heatran, Charizard, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, etc. resist the STAB combo...and there's not much it can do for that besides run Hidden Power Ground for Heatran, which is the true claim to the possible drop outside of Stealth Rock. I prefer to see it A-; while it may be stopped by several key Pokemon, it also defeats other key Pokemon. At +1, even Alakazam doesn't want to come in on this, for the faster +1 Bug Buzz spells death. Scizor doesn't like that it has a Fire-STAB. Ferrothorn can't set Stealth Rock when it must combat against Fiery Dances, etc. Often underestimated, it still does well.

: B+ -> B

While I haven't really used Mega Gallade, why would I use it above other Fight-Types? Mega Medicham has Pure Power to give it unrivaled wall-breaking abilities, Mega Lopunny can hit Ghost-Types without a hitch while still being immune to Ghost-Types herself, Conkeldurr is bulkier, Lucario has Extreme Speed...I still don't see it. I'd like to see this drop--also Keldeo and Terrakion. Those two are too good.

: B+ -> B-


The best comparison I can think of is Excadrill, a Pokemon that requires weather to sweep. What are the differences? Swampert has better bulk and natural attack, hitting harder than Air Balloon Excadrill, and it has a single weakness. That's about it. Excadrill can hold Life Orb to make it more powerful, has Swords Dance to make it even easier to punch through opponents, has a better typing in many senses (resists to Fairy and immunity to Poison is nice), and can partner with better Pokemon to give it the weather it needs; Tyranitar and Hippowdon are just better than Politoed and Swampert running Rain Dance makes it miss on a coverage move, like Excadrill running Sandstorm. Surf's down with me.
 

AD impish john

Consumed by Darkness...
(This is my first time talking in the Viability Rankings so don't give me too much hate)

Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B

I honestly agree with this for a couple of reasons. I pratically never see Mega Gallade unless its Low Ladder. It's also outclassed by other physical fighting types for a couple of examples: Conkeldurr is good at luring and has better bulk, Mega Lopunny is much faster in speed and gets Scrappy being able to touch Ghost types, Breloom gets Technician boosted attacks, and can Spore, and Mega Heracross gets Skill Link making it a threatening Wallbreaker. Mega Gallade does have good bulk, and speed; but I would rather just use Mega Medicham instead. Mega Medicham get's Pure Power a ability that doubles attack making it like a free Swords Dance and hits everything like a truck; meanwhile Gallade has to setup a SD wasting a turn to get to Mega Medicham's power, and the fact that Unaware exist gives Mega Gallade have a harder time to use. The metagame is pretty harsh on Mega Gallade, with all the Tornadus-Therian, Mega Sableye, Clefable, Skarmory, and Tank Chomps which all Counter/Check it. Hell, I think it should go to B- imo, I can't give too much hate on the poor fellow, his design is pretty badass, but that's about it. Let the flame war comments begin!
 
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