Project OU Theorymon

[astroboy]

despite my initial hesitance, simple whiscash seems to be my favorite choice for this slate. offensive ddancer that can be pretty hard to stop once it sets up, doesnt take up a mega slot, and has a pretty solid defensive typing that helps it set up. its main selling point over feraligatr or gyarados, the other two non-mega water-type dragon-dancers (thats a mouthful), are its ability to set up on electric-types, reliable secondary STAB (thats not bounce, lol) , and ability to boost faster. however, whiscash' smain pretty much exclusively suits the role of late-game cleaner, whereas gatr can wallbreak early- to mid-game before setting up, and gyarados can pivot to check stuff like landog or excadrill.

heres an idea of a core using simple whiscash

+

whiscash and talonflame would make really great partners, with whiscash cockblocking the electrics that check talonflame, and talon checking the grass-types that scare whiscash. talon should be played aggressively early-mid game to punch holes in stuff like rotom-w or really any bulky water, with whiscash cleaning up late game. this core does have issues with bulky waters, particularly suicune or slowbro, so pairing this core with something like mega-venusaur is an excellent choice.

sets

Whiscash @ Life Orb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost
- Swords Dance

personally i prefer using an adamant nature+life orb with whiscash because
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 277-328 (77.1 - 91.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Whiscash Double-Edge vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 290-342 (90.9 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Whiscash Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 266-316 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

while i recognize that you're going to be using whis late-game, while everything listed will be significantly weakened, i personally prefer it just to be more self-sufficent, and generally just less reliant on its teammates to secure a kill. you could go jolly if you want to speed tie with mega-zam/aero, but theyre not exactly very relevant in theorymon. overall its cool.

this mesprit is cancer, set it on fire

i dont see how zoroak adds to the meta at all except for a fucking incredible megagross partner+decently strong special priority user

honestly i dont like this jellicent change because it takes away the water immunity, and replaces it with something that only will take affect 30% more often than otherwise via scald burn. that wording was janky but im doing this on mobile so fml lol. i dont consider this to be much of a buff, frankly, and i dont think i would use this over slowking unless i desperately needed a spinblocker.

 

[Karxrida]

+ Serene Grace (Credit to Blumenwitz)

This is honestly just disgusting. We don't need anything with 60%-chance-to-burn Scald.

I'm liking Dark/Fighting + Vacuum Wave Zoroark the most. Not only can it potentially get some surprise revenges with its new priority, it now gets STAB on Low Kick and Focus Blast to have an easier time killing stuff like Heatran.

0 Atk Zoroark Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 254-302 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The double Dark resist also helps with checking Bisharp, who loses the ability to OHKO you at +2.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 250-294 (95.7 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark (Dark/Fighting): 125-147 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Jellicent is kinda cool, but I don't get why you need to boost the chance of Scald burning since it already burns 100% of the time lol
Joking aside, this could make Jellicent pretty neat, it still walls Keldeo and nothing is gonna want to switch in on 60% burn (more than Sacred Fire lol). Sadly, Knock Off is everywhere and most mons have a way around it, so unless someone explains something I didn't see I don't see how this is a really huge buff to its viability other than "lol scald"

Whiscash seems kinda neat, Ground/Water is a pretty good offensive typing as well as giving a few nice resists to aid set up, before demolishing stuff. Sets up all over Mega Manectric so that's fun, but it is gonna dislike Intimidate, especially if it hasn't got a chance to set up yet.

Mesprit is gonna be a really neat wallbreaker, packing whatever coverage it wants lol, and possibly a free +1 if it comes in on the right mon. This looks really neat as it has decent bulk, even if it is kinda slow.

Finally Zoroark. This is probably my favourite out of the bunch. It can now come in on a whole bunch of stuff (and doesn't give any fucks about Knock Off, which should be taken advantage of), it can disguise itself as something that resists all its weaknesses (which it should do anyway), set up NP, and start demolishing slower builds, while Vacuum Wave allows it to do a lot to offense as well. Vacuum Wave is especially cool as it allows it to kill mons like Weavile and Tyranitar before they can attack once at +2, does a solid chunk to mons like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, and easily OHKOs Heatran with Focus Miss. Alternatively, a physical Scarf/Band/LO set with Sucker Punch or Pursuit/U-Turn/Knock Off/Low Kick looks pretty cool as well. Sadly, it is hardwalled and used as set up bait by Mega Altaria :/ This one probably has my vote, and Zoroark is a cool mon :)

 

[Patolegend!]

Jellicent is kinda cool, but I don't get why you need to boost the chance of Scald burning since it already burns 100% of the time lol
Joking aside, this could make Jellicent pretty neat, it still walls Keldeo and nothing is gonna want to switch in on 60% burn (more than Sacred Fire lol). Sadly, Knock Off is everywhere and most mons have a way around it, so unless someone explains something I didn't see I don't see how this is a really huge buff to its viability other than "lol scald"

Whiscash seems kinda neat, Ground/Water is a pretty good offensive typing as well as giving a few nice resists to aid set up, before demolishing stuff. Sets up all over Mega Manectric so that's fun, but it is gonna dislike Intimidate, especially if it hasn't got a chance to set up yet.

Mesprit is gonna be a really neat wallbreaker, packing whatever coverage it wants lol, and possibly a free +1 if it comes in on the right mon. This looks really neat as it has decent bulk, even if it is kinda slow.

Finally Zoroark. This is probably my favourite out of the bunch. It can now come in on a whole bunch of stuff (and doesn't give any fucks about Knock Off, which should be taken advantage of), it can disguise itself as something that resists all its weaknesses (which it should do anyway), set up NP, and start demolishing slower builds, while Vacuum Wave allows it to do a lot to offense as well. Vacuum Wave is especially cool as it allows it to kill mons like Weavile and Tyranitar before they can attack once at +2, does a solid chunk to mons like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, and easily OHKOs Heatran with Focus Miss. Alternatively, a physical Scarf/Band/LO set with Sucker Punch or Pursuit/U-Turn/Knock Off/Low Kick looks pretty cool as well. Sadly, it is hardwalled and used as set up bait by Mega Altaria :/ This one probably has my vote, and Zoroark is a cool mon :)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 281-333 (79.6 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The great thing about zoro is its versatilty, and a secondary STAB helps it out a lot. It can now has a chance to one shot Chansey at +2, with a special set, or it could go physical and one shot Heatran.

With all the sand going round at the minute, fighting priority is really nice to have, and actually allows it to go modest, doing more damage.

The fighting typing also gives it the benefit of a rocks resistance, allowing it to come in constantly, as well as an amazing 4x dark resist and neutrality to bug.

All this is without taking into account the fun mindgames to be had! I really love this one.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Mega Altaria: 281-333 (79.6 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The great thing about zoro is its versatilty, and a secondary STAB helps it out a lot. It can now has a chance to one shot Chansey at +2, with a special set, or it could go physical and one shot Heatran.

With all the sand going round at the minute, fighting priority is really nice to have, and actually allows it to go modest, doing more damage.

The fighting typing also gives it the benefit of a rocks resistance, allowing it to come in constantly, as well as an amazing 4x dark resist and neutrality to bug.

All this is without taking into account the fun mindgames to be had! I really love this one.

Ah, forgot about HP Ice. Still, it needs that prior damage (which isn't too hard to get to be fair, and not all Mega Altaria's are bulky). I was thinking of something like NP/Dark Pulse/Focus Blast or Flamethrower/Vacuum Wave, not sure where it would fit in HP Ice (maybe NP/HP Ice/Dark Pulse/Vacuum Wave?). I dunno, but it seems like it has 4mss. Still a really cool mon and the mindgames and new resists are amazing.

 

[Patolegend!]

Ah, forgot about HP Ice. Still, it needs that prior damage (which isn't too hard to get to be fair, and not all Mega Altaria's are bulky). I was thinking of something like NP/Dark Pulse/Focus Blast or Flamethrower/Vacuum Wave, not sure where it would fit in HP Ice (maybe NP/HP Ice/Dark Pulse/Vacuum Wave?). I dunno, but it seems like it has 4mss. Still a really cool mon and the mindgames and new resists are amazing.

Remember though, that's bulky Alt, so if it's not HP invested it's a KO.

dark is great coverage by itself, and with that set maybe Clef would be a problem, and the blobs, but not much else! It can decide whether it wants to massacre stall or offense :)

Yeah, I think it's ace. Something people are sleeping on at the minute is that Whiscash also gets Amnesia, making a Bulky set with scald exceedingly viable as well - it wouldn't just be a one trick simpleton.

 

[Blumenwitz]

So since Jellicent was my submission, I figure I'm obligated to defend it. Here was my original pitch:

Serene Grace Jellicent

So Jellicent, for all its bulk, lacks the power necessary to pose any real threat to most OU builds. How to we resolve this? The answer is Serene Grace.

Now the two primary moves that Jellicent can abuse with Serene Grace are Scald and Sludge Bomb, which now have a 60% chance to burn and poison their targets, respectively.

So now it's just an annoying status spreader, right? Not exactly. See, Jellicent can also use its ability to abuse one of its most potent STAB moves; Hex.

Serene Grace allows Jellicent to become a potent wallbreaker, firing off 130 BP Hexes on any unlucky switchin.

252+ SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

252+ SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252+ SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252+ SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Slowking: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252+ SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 133-157 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage <--- That may not seem like a lot, but consider the fact that it'll be taking a little prior damage from being burned the previous turn.

Or if you want to keep Jellicent on the defensive and just spam Scald all day long, you can do that too. Sure, it'll be a little annoying to deal with, but I don't see how it'll be any more annoying than Paraflinch Jirachi or Togekiss. Besides, even with the buff, there are a few OU viable mons who can help keep Jellicent in check:

Chansey: Immune to Hex, doesn't care about being statused, tanks any special attack Jellicent can throw at her.

Chesnaught: Bulletproof makes it immune to Sludge Bomb, and even after being burned it can still give Jellicent a pounding with Wood Hammer.

Toxicroak: Immune to Scald, can't be poisoned, bops Jellicent with Knock Off/ Sucker Punch.

Specially Offensive Hoopa-U: Doesn't care about status, outspeeds and KOs Jellicent with Dark STAB.

Mega Venusaur: Doesn't enjoy being scalded, but ultimately can win 1v1 thanks to Giga Drain.

I'd also add pretty much any specially- oriented offensive Electric type.

PS: On a more gimmicky note, Jellicent gets STAB on Ominous Wind, so you can spam that and pray for the boost.

 

[Akumeoy]

Jellicent is the only one of these I find myself caring about.

Whiscash is flavorful, but seriously does the council have a Dragon Dance fetish? It feels like 2/3 of the slates we get are carrying either a new DD user or a buff to something that is obviously meant for Dragon Dance. We have plenty of Dragon Dancers in OU already.

I feel like Mesprit doesn't have the speed or power to really abuse its cool new coverage move, especially since it's gonna be carrying a plate over a real boosting item. Can someone show me a scenario where Mesprit is an optimal choice for a core/team?

Zoroark isn't so bad, but what does the meta gain from yet another setup priority abuser? Moreover, it's butting into Infernape's territory, and I like Infernape better. Put Illusion on a bulky pivot and we'll talk.

Jellicent was always a cool Pokémon, and somehow increasing Scald's burn chance is really nice for checking a variety of physical attackers more reliably than it did already. Should limit options on offense while sapping enough momentum to not actually buff offense too badly.

 

[JTD783]

First thoughts:

Fast mesprit with U-turn can make a cool pivot. Not sure what plate it'll want for judgement but it seems cool. Better bulk than Rotom and a great movepool has me interested. No recovery, sigh.

Jelli can abuse scald and possibly utilize a Hex set. oml ominous wind/recover/scald/ice beam could be scary O_O. Otherwise, poison chances from sludge bomb and SpD drops from Shadow ball are a thing I suppose. Seems nice.

Zoroark appreciates the better typing and useful STAB, can make a decent revenge killer. Base 105 speed is decent right now and has fun options in atk/spa moves. GK for hippo and other fat water/grounds is especially helpful. I like it.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Hidden Power Steel vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 289-341 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Hidden Power Steel vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 309-364 (100.6 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Clef dies with some prior damage, Offensive DD Malt dies. HP Steel new meta.

And lastly the mudfish. The HP bulk is great, and it gets DD, Amnesia, double team. It has a good movepool, and may be able to consider items such as berries (natural gift). We'll see.

 

[Patolegend!]

I think there's a lot of unexplored potential in Mesprit to be honest; due to its middling (but not bad) speed and reasonable power, it can make an impact with a variety of sets. At +1, it hits 10% less damage than LO Hoopa, while offering excellent coverage with Pseudo stab that it can choose. With Fist Plate, it becomes a great lure for TTar:
+1 252 SpA Fist Plate Mesprit Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 448-528 (111.1 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It can do this without giving up HP Fire for Ferro/Scizor.

It can use a Dread Plate to slaughter Slowbro and bulky psychics:
+1 252 SpA Dread Plate Mesprit Judgment vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 396-466 (100.5 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With the plate, and due to Judgement's high HP, you can see that even unstabbed, as long as it gets the boost, it's hitting at Hoopa's power level:
+1 252 SpA Dread Plate Mesprit Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 169-199 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 188-224 (55.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can also work as a LO Wallbreaker, even without Judgement, thanks to the power that Download can provide.

Or, it can put a scarf on, and work as a good revenge killer that has access to U-Turn and Healing Wish.

With reasonable physical and special coverage, alongside it's impressive versatility, it can definitely be a threat. However, it isn't going to go flying to S-Rank!

 

[Blumenwitz]

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Hidden Power Steel vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 289-341 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind that Clefable can also run Unaware, which pretty much lets it wall the new Zoroark for days.

As far as Whiscash goes, I'm wondering how well it would function on rain teams, since rain beefs up its main STAB and it keeps WoW users from ruining your sweep thanks to Hydration. Actually, now that I think about it, Oblivious might be a better option overall, since it lets Whiscash set up freely without having to worry about Taunt users. Never mind, please disregard this. I'll... offer my thoughts later.

As far as Mesprit goes, Download is a cool ability and I've always wanted to see it implemented here. Download Mesprit has the movepool and the stats to utilize a pretty dangerous mixed offensive set.

As for Judgment... I'm a little skeptical. The whole reason Arceus can use that move so well is that its type changes to match the plate, so Judgment always gets STAB. Mesprit doesn't get that benefit, and holding a plate disallows it from holding other, potentially more useful options, like Choice Scarf or Life Orb. Seriously, if you're running a mixed offensive set, wouldn't you rather be holding a Life Orb?

I guess Judgment does have some benefit in that it lets you pick off whatever defensive threat you want, but I can't help but feel that Download alone would have been enough.

As for Zoroark... lemme get back to you. I'm still not sure how I feel about that one.

 

[Salemance]

Keep in mind that Clefable can also run Unaware, which pretty much lets it wall the new Zoroark for days.

As far as Whiscash goes, I'm wondering how well it would function on rain teams, since rain beefs up its main STAB and it keeps WoW users from ruining your sweep thanks to Hydration. Actually, now that I think about it, Oblivious might be a better option overall, since it lets Whiscash set up freely without having to worry about Taunt users.

As far as Mesprit goes, Download is a cool ability and I've always wanted to see it implemented here. Download Mesprit has the movepool and the stats to utilize a pretty dangerous mixed offensive set.

As for Judgment... I'm a little skeptical. The whole reason Arceus can use that move so well is that its type changes to match the plate, so Judgment always gets STAB. Mesprit doesn't get that benefit, and holding a plate disallows it from holding other, potentially more useful options, like Choice Scarf or Life Orb. Seriously, if you're running a mixed offensive set, wouldn't you rather be holding a Life Orb?

I guess Judgment does have some benefit in that it lets you pick off whatever defensive threat you want, but I can't help but feel that Download alone would have been enough.

As for Zoroark... lemme get back to you. I'm still not sure how I feel about that one.

Um, this just minor nitpick here, but are you mention oblivious and hydration as alternative ability options? Just asking cause Whishcash isn't viable with those two abilities already so don't know how mentioning those now would help the thing when Simple would be the ability of choice.

 

[Blumenwitz]

Um, this just minor nitpick here, but are you mention oblivious and hydration as alternative ability options? Just asking cause Whishcash isn't viable with those two abilities already so don't know how mentioning those now would help the thing when Simple would be the ability of choice.

Oh, wow, I'm an idiot. Derp. :P

Thanks for catching that. I haven't had my coffee yet so I'm a little slow...

 

[Imperator Romanum]

+ Download and Judgment (Credit to Jaroda only for Download)

+ Serene Grace (Credit to Blumenwitz)

+ Dark / Fighting-typing and Vacuum Wave (Hot dog pizza)

+ Simple (Credit to Jaroda)


Not a lot of times I find myself loving literally every single one of these, nice slate guys

Mesprit

Mesprit @ Fist Plate
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Judgment
- Knock Off
- Dazzling Gleam

Mesprit @ Fist Plate
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Judgment
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam

Straight up Calm mind Mesprit, this set aims to hit the most of OU and hit them fast. Similarly to a faster Meloetta. If you're lucky enough to grab a Special Attack boost... Funny enough, Judgement and Psyshock do the exact same neutral damage. You're also free to go in from a wall breaking perspective, Judgement pretty much gives you stab on one 80 Base power move, so that's nifty, shame this wasn't given to Azelf which would use it better, this isn't more than a B rank pokemon.

+1 252 SpA Fist Plate Mesprit Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 448-528 (111.1 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Fist Plate Mesprit Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 234-276 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 298-352 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Fist Plate Mesprit Judgment vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mesprit Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 186-219 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 400-472 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Knocked off Eviolite


Jellicent @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Hex
- Recover
- Taunt

Taking stallbreaker Jellicent to whole new levels. 85 Special attack is pretty awful, but when you had Life orb and Modest into the equation... We're getting somewhere. The giant chance to burn pretty much frees up your 4MMS, replacing Will O Wisp with scald, Sludge bomb isn't need, as I can't really think of anything that resist water + ghost that's really viable.


252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 110-133 (36.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

^2HKO after SR and Burn, you'd probably want to switch out though. As even a burnt HF does 90% Minimum, next time it's not safe because of Hex doing a fuck-ton.

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 187-221 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

Burned Pursuit fails to 2HKO

120 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 361-429 (101.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But I think Jellicent will be a huge problem for stall, especially with it being immune to Shadow tag.

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Mega Sableye: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Mega Sableye: 177-211 (58.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 246-290 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 361-429 (81.3 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 173-204 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 91-109 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Whiscash will be... Meh. Water + Ground isn't the best coverage, really. And Zoroark is cool and all but priority fighting isn't that good...

 

[Lemon Ginger]

This is honestly just disgusting. We don't need anything with 60%-chance-to-burn Scald.

I'm liking Dark/Fighting + Vacuum Wave Zoroark the most. Not only can it potentially get some surprise revenges with its new priority, it now gets STAB on Low Kick and Focus Blast to have an easier time killing stuff like Heatran.

0 Atk Zoroark Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 254-302 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The double Dark resist also helps with checking Bisharp, who loses the ability to OHKO you at +2.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 250-294 (95.7 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark (Dark/Fighting): 125-147 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO

What makes it even cooler is that this sucker punch calc does not matter, since Zoroark outspeeds and OHKO's SD Bisharp with vacuum wave at +1 priority. Even after knock off:

252 SpA Zoroark Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 336-396 (123.9 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Since you only take ~30% from an unboosted life orb knockoff, you are free to come in on SD, sucker or knockoff. Iron head still has a chance to OHKO, so it's not a safe switch, but iron head is a very risky play for bisharp normally. When I submitted this Weavile had not yet been banned, and it avoided the 2HKO from weavile's knock-off+ice shard, similarly OHKOing with vacuum wave.

The guaranteed -1 speed from low sweep might actually be a potential way to surprise switch-ins who know that you are illusion, allowing you to blast them with coverage or get a safe u-turn. I think Zoroark could ultimately be used as a physical utility set with knock-off, lowkick, u-turn, taunt/memento,suckerpunch or a nasty plot setup set that utilizes illusion for freeish turns.

Also if you are a crazy person, you CAN switch into both of Hoopa-U's STABs and kill with u-turn, but you die to any coverage. Would only be used in emergency.

I really like the other stuff on this slate too. I would be very reticent about introducing 60% burn scald into meta.

otherwise I think whishcash is pretty cool. My only concern is that without taunt or an immediate switch to a grass type, its going to get to +4/+4. This might be super scary. Mespirit is neat, if not a little gimmicky. Not getting to use scarf makes it a one time lure, for the most past, but it could be great for sneakily breaking weakpoints...who knows.

Edits for mobile typing

 

[SparksBlade]

uh so from what've read so far, jellicent basically can drop wisp cos we gave it super saiyan scald? well ofc there's shadow ball drops as well but atm scald seems to be the main(and likely the only) draw for it. if there's more to it, can someone please point it out for me?

 

[Akumeoy]

uh so from what've read so far, jellicent basically can drop wisp cos we gave it super saiyan scald? well ofc there's shadow ball drops as well but atm scald seems to be the main(and likely the only) draw for it. if there's more to it, can someone please point it out for me?

Sludge Bomb, theoretically. But there's really no reason to use that unless you utterly despise Breloom or Tangrowth (both, admittedly, solid checks to the jelly). It's just Scald.

 

[Blumenwitz]

uh so from what've read so far, jellicent basically can drop wisp cos we gave it super saiyan scald? well ofc there's shadow ball drops as well but atm scald seems to be the main(and likely the only) draw for it. if there's more to it, can someone please point it out for me?

I mentioned this in my pitch, but Scald can be used in conjunction with Hex to give Jellicent some offensive presence. Also, this is far less reliable, but Jellicent also gets STAB on Ominous Wind, so...

 

[pika pal]

So, the Theorymon that has me the most intrigued is Zoroark, because it makes it a viable Pokemon outside the gimmick that it was introduced with.

Special Priority is extremely rare in the current Metagame, with the only users being Infernape and Lucario, on whom the moves are not particularly viable options. Gaining another weakness isn't a particularly problem for Zoroark, since it's too frail to take much anyway; on the other hand, a 4x resistance to KO, Sucker Punch, and a neutrality to (Utility based) U-Turn, not to mention a SR resistance help its longevity vs Passive Damage as well.

Other things to consider, are that Zoroark's new typing does it a bit better with Illusion mind games, niche as that may be. The SR resist helps it pose as Steel and (typical) Fighting types more easily, meaning it deters Fairy moves and can draw Psychic attacks. One little benefit to consider is that if Zoroark is immune to/resists something, posing as that mon can help you out a lure without the intended target being crippled. Disguise it as Venusaur against Thundurus-I, for example, and it might expose Psychic/HP Flying only to find it didn't lure the correct opponent. Probably an edge case, but something that could help.

More importantly, Zoroark's typing as well as ability to deceive can grant it set up opportunities: Bisharp's already been mentioned, type disguises can let it set up on something passive that it seems immune to, such as a Grass type in front of Ferrothorn. Zoroark with a Nasty Plot boost is a pretty fast Special Sweeper, and Vacuum Wave has decent cleaning power behind it.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO

105 Speed is pretty decent for a Wallbreaker, and there's of course always mixed potential (same Mixed power as Hydreigon) and a movepool with plenty of room for experimenting or Luring. Special focus also means Zoroark isn't stopped by burns like most other (non-Talonflame) Priority users.


Certainly will get into the others at a later date, but Zoroark was always a favorite of mine, so it got first dibs.

 

[Taliheim]

Mesprit: Judgement doesn't seem to be doing much for it mainly due to its base 80 speed; with its stat spread, it doesn't hit hard enough for it to really be a gamechanger (although Download can change that), and it isn't ulky enough to reliably pivot in on something and take a hit before attacking. However, with Download, I'm seeing Mesprit as being a viable Scarf user. It's coverage of BoltBeam + Psychic made it a viable scarfer in DPP if you were feeling adventurous, but it always had a lot of competition with Starmie for a hard-hitting Pokemon with such coverage. With Download, however, Mesprit has the possibility of picking up a pseudo-Specs boost, meaning that it now hits harder than non-Analytic-boosted Starmie and safely revenge a surprising amount of the metagame. It also has access to U-Turn to pivot out of Pursuit-user switch-ins, which is nice, and also gets boosted if Download boosts Attack instead of SpAtk, so it can actually do a decent amount of damage, especially to Pokemon like the Latis. Judgement won't do Mesprit much judgement, though - with a Scarf, it's only a base 100 Special Normal-type move, which Mesprit doesn't really want or need. Probably my favorite entry; it helps that I absolutely love the lake trio.

Jellicent: Scan Bald. On a serious note, for me, it just joins the legions of wallbreakers already in the tier; I'd say it becomes more of a balance breaker than anything else due to its ability to spread status, hit decently hard, and its access to decent bulk and Recover. I'm not that sure on how good it would be, tough.

Zoroark: I would use it. It now gets reliable priority for surprise revenge kills, and hits hard enough to show its face in Ou. I personally like using Zoroark in standard OU, and with the ability to hit more threats harder and revenge kill, I would certainly bring it to high-level play. Sorry for the bad write-up, but there's not that much that I can really say.

Whiscash: 1-turn Double Dance. Basically a physical Shell Smash, no White Herb needed. With a typing that allows it to switch into/set up on quite a lot, I can see Whiscash being a decent late-game sweeper, being especially a problem for Balance. Its typing is also decent offensively. This is probably getting my Honorable Mention.

 

[Clair]

+ Serene Grace

Why? You give up your only existing niche in Water Absorb for a 60% burn on Scald, when you already have Will-o-wisp? Like, this would make offensive sets more dangerous, but offensive sets will be just slow, not that bulky, and no longer have great free switch opportunity. This just seems inferior to regular Jelli to me.

+ Dark / Fighting-typing and Vacuum Wave

Solid. Nasty Plot becomes better, you check Bisharp and Weavile, and you get a different pool of Illusion partners. There's not much else to this nom, it's reasonable but not too interesting.

+ Simple

I was excited for this initially (I laddered with HydraRest DD Cash back in BW) but the more I think about it...it's just another Dragon Dancer, with the extra stage boost compensating for its lower initial stats compared to its competition. Water / Ground typing is a great niche, no doubt (one weakness, Thunder Wave immunity), but it's hard to get too excited.

 

[Blumenwitz]

Why? You give up your only existing niche in Water Absorb

You know, I've always been skeptical about the value of Water Absorb to Jellicent. It's already resistant to Water, and while Scald immunity is nice, it's not a physical attacker and it has reliable recovery, so it doesn't really mind getting burned anyway (at least not as much as others do). Also, as others have mentioned, Scald allows Jelli to continually apply offensive pressure, whereas Wisp does not.

I was excited for this initially (I laddered with HydraRest DD Cash back in BW) but the more I think about it...it's just another Dragon Dancer, with the extra stage boost compensating for its lower initial stats compared to its competition.

Keep in mind that Whiscash also gets Amnesia, which I think is enough of a niche to set it apart from other Dragon Dancers. It still has to watch out for Secret Sword and Psyshock users (and offensive Grass types) but other than that, one Amnesia boost is enough to let it set up on basically any special attacker in the tier.

Other things to consider, are that Zoroark's new typing does it a bit better with Illusion mind games, niche as that may be. The SR resist helps it pose as Steel and (typical) Fighting types more easily, meaning it deters Fairy moves and can draw Psychic attacks. One little benefit to consider is that if Zoroark is immune to/resists something, posing as that mon can help you out a lure without the intended target being crippled. Disguise it as Venusaur against Thundurus-I, for example, and it might expose Psychic/HP Flying only to find it didn't lure the correct opponent. Probably an edge case, but something that could help.

That's actually a really cool point, and I hadn't thought of that. I've always thought that Illusion was a fascinating ability, and it's nice to see a slate that gives it some practical, non-gimmicky utility.

 

[nameless90]

Whiscash+Simple is still underwhelming because has poor stats all around including -and not limiting to- the speed (thus making Dragon Dance on the first turn predictable) and suffers a lot the Intimidate users -not to mention Sticky Web- and can't use Hydration to avoid burns. It basically dies to Taunt and it takes always a hit from the opponent in the first turn of set-up. The immunity to Thunder Wave is nice but this trait doesn't redeem Whiscash's flaws in my opinion.

Jellicent + Serene Grace in my opinion is a very poor design: Entei's Sacred Fire is so good because has a 50% rate of burn and has low PP to compensate (not to mention it is supposed to be the signature move of two pokemon) and with this ability Jellicent does a better job between Scald (to cripple every non-Fire type physical attacker) and Sludge Bomb plus Hex. Nice pokemon with a Choice Scarf set to hit and inflict status) but seems boring to me.

Mesprit: big buff to her offensive prowess with a sort of 100 base-power Hidden Power thanks to Judgement and using the item slot to boost it even more. Pretty nice but I think there are enough Psychic-type Special attackers in the meta even with all this Knock-Off spam (at least Jellicent should be one of the rare Ghost-types walking around the OU meta) and using Judgement means that you can't choose other items.

Zoroark is my favourite pokemon of this slate: even with the team preview, this monster can bluff some threats you have, even if are slow, because you have a good 105 base speed to work with forcing, at least, one switch per match creating momentum (i.e. replicating Gengar which is weak to Ghost, Dark and Psychic whereas Zoroark resists or is immune to them). With the new typing rectifying its bulk and the STAB priority I think that Zoroark can dish out some good damage and be another good special attacker in the meta. P.S. Zoroark can even learn Flamethrower if you need another way to deal with against Ferrothorn and Scizor.

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 369-437 (104.8 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 411-484 (119.8 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO whereas
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 148-175 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[heritage]

Hey, all, wanted to make a short announcement, for those of you that haven't seen the thread, that we have a tournament, similar to the last one, going on here! Thankfully, Weavile and Hydregion won't be here this time around, so hopefully match-ups are a bit more fair. The tournament is also going to be used for a bit of research with playstyles. Feel free to jump right in and sign up! Have fun o:

 

[Patolegend!]

Whiscash+Simple is still underwhelming because has poor stats all around including -and not limiting to- the speed (thus making Dragon Dance on the first turn predictable) and suffers a lot the Intimidate users -not to mention Sticky Web- and can't use Hydration to avoid burns. It basically dies to Taunt and it takes always a hit from the opponent in the first turn of set-up. The immunity to Thunder Wave is nice but this trait doesn't redeem Whiscash's flaws in my opinion.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about the effects of Intimidate, but don't forget that Whiscash can just take DD again, as it takes a hit from every Intimidate user (Mega Man, Gyara, Lando-T), and then hits them supereffectively, knocking them out at +2, with a set of DD, Waterfall, EQ, Stone Edge. Predictability is not an issue with Whiscash's bulk, though you're right, it does dislike Taunt; taunt is mostly predictable though, you know which 'mons are going to carry it. The fact that it has underwhelming stats means it's ideal for Simple, allowing it to be viable without being close to broken. It does redeem a number of it's flaws.

Jellicent + Serene Grace in my opinion is a very poor design: Entei's Sacred Fire is so good because has a 50% rate of burn and has low PP to compensate (not to mention it is supposed to be the signature move of two pokemon) and with this ability Jellicent does a better job between Scald (to cripple every non-Fire type physical attacker) and Sludge Bomb plus Hex. Nice pokemon with a Choice Scarf set to hit and inflict status) but seems boring to me.

Annoying as hell =/= boring. I think it would give Jellicent another reason to be used. I think honestly defensive sets would still run Water Absorb just 'cos it's such a $ ability when you're immune to fighting; there would be some form of mindgames there when you're facing a Specs Keldeo and you have it in the back. It could also be used now though, as a tank; there's no way TTar's switching into you, and if it pursuits it risks you not switching out and burning it while taking away 50% of its health.

Just some of my thoughts for the more underappreciated mons on the slate!

I would love to see some cores, especially with Zoroark, what you'd disguise it as now, etc.