This. People forget that the rivals (main rivals lile Blue, Silver, Serena/Calem) and players are all prodigies who can train their Pokemon with minimal effort and teach them moves on the first attempt. We see that in multiple canons and it is often all but explicitly stated too in the games.
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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
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This. People forget that the rivals (main rivals lile Blue, Silver, Serena/Calem) and players are all prodigies who can train their Pokemon with minimal effort and teach them moves on the first attempt. We see that in multiple canons and it is often all but explicitly stated too in the games.
Try it with regular level mons, still easy.
Sorry if I go over any that have already been talked about.
Aside from Will and Karen there's at least something for them to build on with many of the other Elite Four. However for the most part the game just treats them as most bosses or at worse roadblocks you need to overcome to face the Champion. Many seem like interesting characters and I'd like to know about them or at the very least how they came to be a member of the Elite Four.
Gen I Indigo League:
Just in general we know a bit about them as the Fame Checker outright tells you trivia on them. Kind of wish all games had the Fame Checker to tell you bits of information like that, but alas they don't and some Elite Four really suffer for it.
Lorelei: Was given a minor role in FRLG. Lorelei is from the Sevii Islands, Four Island specifically. She's a logical, collected, and cool person; fitting her Ice-type preference. Yet she also likes to collect Pokemon Dolls in her home on Four Island, showing some more layers of her personality. She's protective of her home region including the Icefall Caves where as a child she met her Lapras.
Bruno: Notable for being an Elite Four of two different gens (Lance moving on to being the Champion in Gen II), the main thing anyone remembers about Bruno is his love of Rage Candybars. Yeah, Bruno really doesn't have much depth put on his character. He's a tough looking martial arts guy and the only other info provided on him was how he likes incorporating spas in his training and he once trained with Brawley.
Agatha: To me she has the most interesting backstory though they never delve into it. When she and Professor Oak were young trainers they were fierce rivals (and maybe there was some hinted romance between the two, however obviously it didn't go anywhere as she's not stated to be Blue's grandmother). She had a hot temper and short fuse. She's also apparently the oldest Elite Four member, though that was before Bertha was made which even the game has noted they she has similarities with.
Lance: Becoming Champion increased his presence shown by his role in Gen II. Growing up in Blackthorn, Lance is cool and passionate and he's not afraid to make a statement like hi preference for capes and stating that Dragon-types are indestructible. FRLG seemed more interested in his family relations with it noting Clair is his cousin and the Elder might be their grandfather. In Gen II he's presented as a sort of action G-man, working on behalf of the Pokemon League to stop Team Rocket's experiments. But he still show he cares like him defeating Silver and scolding him on how his behavior which led Silver onto a better path, and shows no anger toward him when he has the the double battle with Clair against him and the player (he even apologizes for maybe being too harsh).
Gen II Indigo League:
Will: He... exists? Only notable thing about Will is his clothes which just makes you want to know about him. He goes on about being a psychic an having limitless possibilities but that's all and is kind of generic talk for a trainer. Is he a performer of some sort? How does he stand out among other psychics we've seen? At the very least give us a personality quirk!
Koga: Koga has a bit of info from his thanks to being a Gym Leader in Gen I (not that any other games count that as BW2 showed). Koga is a ninja master which translate to his preferred battling style is inflecting status ailments (poison, paralysis, and sleep). However his expertise in poison has also taught him about medicine which he uses to heal his Pokemon. He also actively patrols Fuchsia City and the surrounding areas including the Safari Zone. Everything else about Koga is about him being the father of Janine.
Karen: Everyone knows Karen because of her philosophy but she's just as unknown as Will. She not only has a plain appearance (yeah she's hot, but so are most other female trainer classes) but her only character trait is treating everyone equally and likes the Dark-type persona. So how does she relate herself to the Dark-types beyond that? What does she think about trainers who disagree with her philosophies which many do? Does she like long walks on the beach? What else do you got on her?
Hoenn Elite Four:
Sidney: It's said he likes showing off the beautiful side of Dark-types but nothing is further addressed about that. He's a punk gone to Elite Four and has a "might is right" way of doing battles but that's it. We see him in the Battle Maison in ORAS so you might think you'll learn more about him but he just says he was there looking for Steven. Come on! At least say he likes battling there or maybe he doesn't. Like what are his views on the Battle Facilities now that he has appeared in one? Oh, he's just here for Steven but he missed him so now he's leaving. Fine...
Phoebe: She gets a bit more to her character. Her grandparents are the elderly couple on My. Pyre protecting the Orbs. From a young age she was able to talk with ghosts (not just Ghost-types, ghost ghosts as well) yet has a pretty happy-to-go attitude. Her additional scene in ORAS shows all this with her happily talking to her grandmother among tombstones... except you don't see her grandmother which implies she had died during the post game.
Glacia: She's not from Hoenn but a colder region. She came to Hoenn in order to train her Ice-types in warmer weather. She has "flaming passion in icy cold" and often make similar heat metaphors. Nothing else though, the only other notable thing about her is that she's the only member of the Elite Four in ORAS not to get an outside of League cameo (though its mentioned she likes to eat at the Mauville Food Court).
Drake: He's a sailor who train Dragon-types after being saved by one. He has respect for Pokemon being free wild beasts who may help or hinder, saying you need a virtuous heart to battle alongside Pokemon. He also doesn't seem to think too highly of the Emerald Battle Frontier saying if the player wants a real battle there's no substitution for the League. He's also friends with Mr. Briney and Peeko.
Sinnoh Elite Four:
Aaron: He REALLY like Bug-types. Moving on... WAIT! There's maybe a bit more. BW2's Variety shows talks about a Sinnoh Bug Catcher who went on to become a Gym Leader and then a member of the Elite Four. So was Aaron a Gym Leader at some point? Well that's all that's mentioned on that point so now moving on...
Bertha: It's not really Bertha herself which is focused on but her likeness to Agatha. They're both old woman who look identicla, their names are similar, and their attitudes seem to purposely be opposite of one another (Agatha is rash and quick to anger while Bertha is gentle and sweet).
Flint: One to get the most info about here and that's still barely anything, he's friends with Volkner and when Volkner started acting distant and maybe thinking to quit being Gym Leader it was Flint who asked the player to battle him. He's also the only Elite Four to show up in the Villa in Platinum where you find out more about his quirky attitude like saying since you bought the furniture with the prize money you won from him he gets to lounge there, says Fire-types are better than Electric-types (further building on his friendly rivalry with Volkner), wants to add some more decorations to the league, and its mentioned his fascination with Fire-types is because of his name. I also could have sworn he said he had thought about hiding his Pokeballs in his afro to surprise trainers.
Lucian: He likes to read and that's mainly it. In Platinum you can find him in Canalave Library occasionally and he'll talk about the book that he has been reading but not much else on him specifically. From the comments he makes him seems a bit of a passionate philosopher or at the very least likes to read about that subject.
Unova Elite Four:
Shauntel: A novelist, she has written many books and is constantly writing another, often making her absentminded to what's going on around her. By the way she writes you can tell she's analytical about details. She also cares a lot about her Pokemon, apologizing to them first when she loses before addressing the player on their win. She's also a bit quirky, basing her clothes (or at least her collar) on an animal (a black cat if you couldn't tell).
Marshal: Marshal is the apprentice of Alder so he gets a bit more roles in the story as Alder asks him to help do tasks such as guarding the entrance to Twist Mountain in BW2. Marshal is very dedicated and values strength and learning from your battles, win or lose.
Grimsley: Once from a distinguished and rich family, they fell to ruin for some reason. Because of this he became a gambler (and also doesn't wear socks) and believes that a win is a win no matter what.
Caitlin: A former Frontier Brain, her story starts in Platinum. Though the Frontier Brain of the Battle Castle in Platinum, she never battled but instead her butler Darach did with her overseeing them. The reason for this wasn't revealed until BW when you find her as a powerful Psychic Elite Four member. As a child she would have tantrums whenever she lost battles and her powers would go wild (you can see some bit of this as she tells Darach to give the player Castle Points "At once!" upon winning). So to prevent that Darach battled in her place until she have matured. By then she moved from a Sinnoh Frontier Brain to a Unova Elite Four member, coming to Unova to hone her power.
Kalos Elite Four:
(Not going to cover them that much since we're still in Gen VI)
Malva: A member of Team Flare, she's very passionate about their goals seeing it as necessary to do. But we don't really find out much about her, just her loyalty to Team Flare. She's easy to anger and isn't afraid to threaten you though nothing comes from it so either she's bluffing or knows she'll achieve nothing in doing so. She's also concern with the intriguing of Team Flare, one reason for her agreeing to help the player and Looker arrest Xerosic is because she believes he's using Team Flare resources to experiment on a child (she totally okay killing them blindly, though). She's also the Holo Caster reporter, providing her more ways to help Team Flare by creating cover up stories for their activities though otherwise tells the news as is.
Siebold: A passionate chef, he sees the art in everything if you put a bit of skill into it be it cooking or battling. Anyone who disagree with him is met with him scolding them for being a bit close minded.
Wikstrom: Has a very proud and chivalrous attitude, even speaking in ye olde speake. He looks forward to having a honorable match against the player and making a dramatic scene whether he wins or lose.
Drasna: Her grandparents are from Sinnoh having grown up around the myths of Dialga and Palkia leading to her fascination with Dragon-types. Otherwise she's just a kind elderly woman.
Just in general we know a bit about them as the Fame Checker outright tells you trivia on them. Kind of wish all games had the Fame Checker to tell you bits of information like that, but alas they don't and some Elite Four really suffer for it.
Lorelei: Was given a minor role in FRLG. Lorelei is from the Sevii Islands, Four Island specifically. She's a logical, collected, and cool person; fitting her Ice-type preference. Yet she also likes to collect Pokemon Dolls in her home on Four Island, showing some more layers of her personality. She's protective of her home region including the Icefall Caves where as a child she met her Lapras.
Bruno: Notable for being an Elite Four of two different gens (Lance moving on to being the Champion in Gen II), the main thing anyone remembers about Bruno is his love of Rage Candybars. Yeah, Bruno really doesn't have much depth put on his character. He's a tough looking martial arts guy and the only other info provided on him was how he likes incorporating spas in his training and he once trained with Brawley.
Agatha: To me she has the most interesting backstory though they never delve into it. When she and Professor Oak were young trainers they were fierce rivals (and maybe there was some hinted romance between the two, however obviously it didn't go anywhere as she's not stated to be Blue's grandmother). She had a hot temper and short fuse. She's also apparently the oldest Elite Four member, though that was before Bertha was made which even the game has noted they she has similarities with.
Lance: Becoming Champion increased his presence shown by his role in Gen II. Growing up in Blackthorn, Lance is cool and passionate and he's not afraid to make a statement like hi preference for capes and stating that Dragon-types are indestructible. FRLG seemed more interested in his family relations with it noting Clair is his cousin and the Elder might be their grandfather. In Gen II he's presented as a sort of action G-man, working on behalf of the Pokemon League to stop Team Rocket's experiments. But he still show he cares like him defeating Silver and scolding him on how his behavior which led Silver onto a better path, and shows no anger toward him when he has the the double battle with Clair against him and the player (he even apologizes for maybe being too harsh).
Gen II Indigo League:
Will: He... exists? Only notable thing about Will is his clothes which just makes you want to know about him. He goes on about being a psychic an having limitless possibilities but that's all and is kind of generic talk for a trainer. Is he a performer of some sort? How does he stand out among other psychics we've seen? At the very least give us a personality quirk!
Koga: Koga has a bit of info from his thanks to being a Gym Leader in Gen I (not that any other games count that as BW2 showed). Koga is a ninja master which translate to his preferred battling style is inflecting status ailments (poison, paralysis, and sleep). However his expertise in poison has also taught him about medicine which he uses to heal his Pokemon. He also actively patrols Fuchsia City and the surrounding areas including the Safari Zone. Everything else about Koga is about him being the father of Janine.
Karen: Everyone knows Karen because of her philosophy but she's just as unknown as Will. She not only has a plain appearance (yeah she's hot, but so are most other female trainer classes) but her only character trait is treating everyone equally and likes the Dark-type persona. So how does she relate herself to the Dark-types beyond that? What does she think about trainers who disagree with her philosophies which many do? Does she like long walks on the beach? What else do you got on her?
Hoenn Elite Four:
Sidney: It's said he likes showing off the beautiful side of Dark-types but nothing is further addressed about that. He's a punk gone to Elite Four and has a "might is right" way of doing battles but that's it. We see him in the Battle Maison in ORAS so you might think you'll learn more about him but he just says he was there looking for Steven. Come on! At least say he likes battling there or maybe he doesn't. Like what are his views on the Battle Facilities now that he has appeared in one? Oh, he's just here for Steven but he missed him so now he's leaving. Fine...
Phoebe: She gets a bit more to her character. Her grandparents are the elderly couple on My. Pyre protecting the Orbs. From a young age she was able to talk with ghosts (not just Ghost-types, ghost ghosts as well) yet has a pretty happy-to-go attitude. Her additional scene in ORAS shows all this with her happily talking to her grandmother among tombstones... except you don't see her grandmother which implies she had died during the post game.
Glacia: She's not from Hoenn but a colder region. She came to Hoenn in order to train her Ice-types in warmer weather. She has "flaming passion in icy cold" and often make similar heat metaphors. Nothing else though, the only other notable thing about her is that she's the only member of the Elite Four in ORAS not to get an outside of League cameo (though its mentioned she likes to eat at the Mauville Food Court).
Drake: He's a sailor who train Dragon-types after being saved by one. He has respect for Pokemon being free wild beasts who may help or hinder, saying you need a virtuous heart to battle alongside Pokemon. He also doesn't seem to think too highly of the Emerald Battle Frontier saying if the player wants a real battle there's no substitution for the League. He's also friends with Mr. Briney and Peeko.
Sinnoh Elite Four:
Aaron: He REALLY like Bug-types. Moving on... WAIT! There's maybe a bit more. BW2's Variety shows talks about a Sinnoh Bug Catcher who went on to become a Gym Leader and then a member of the Elite Four. So was Aaron a Gym Leader at some point? Well that's all that's mentioned on that point so now moving on...
Bertha: It's not really Bertha herself which is focused on but her likeness to Agatha. They're both old woman who look identicla, their names are similar, and their attitudes seem to purposely be opposite of one another (Agatha is rash and quick to anger while Bertha is gentle and sweet).
Flint: One to get the most info about here and that's still barely anything, he's friends with Volkner and when Volkner started acting distant and maybe thinking to quit being Gym Leader it was Flint who asked the player to battle him. He's also the only Elite Four to show up in the Villa in Platinum where you find out more about his quirky attitude like saying since you bought the furniture with the prize money you won from him he gets to lounge there, says Fire-types are better than Electric-types (further building on his friendly rivalry with Volkner), wants to add some more decorations to the league, and its mentioned his fascination with Fire-types is because of his name. I also could have sworn he said he had thought about hiding his Pokeballs in his afro to surprise trainers.
Lucian: He likes to read and that's mainly it. In Platinum you can find him in Canalave Library occasionally and he'll talk about the book that he has been reading but not much else on him specifically. From the comments he makes him seems a bit of a passionate philosopher or at the very least likes to read about that subject.
Unova Elite Four:
Shauntel: A novelist, she has written many books and is constantly writing another, often making her absentminded to what's going on around her. By the way she writes you can tell she's analytical about details. She also cares a lot about her Pokemon, apologizing to them first when she loses before addressing the player on their win. She's also a bit quirky, basing her clothes (or at least her collar) on an animal (a black cat if you couldn't tell).
Marshal: Marshal is the apprentice of Alder so he gets a bit more roles in the story as Alder asks him to help do tasks such as guarding the entrance to Twist Mountain in BW2. Marshal is very dedicated and values strength and learning from your battles, win or lose.
Grimsley: Once from a distinguished and rich family, they fell to ruin for some reason. Because of this he became a gambler (and also doesn't wear socks) and believes that a win is a win no matter what.
Caitlin: A former Frontier Brain, her story starts in Platinum. Though the Frontier Brain of the Battle Castle in Platinum, she never battled but instead her butler Darach did with her overseeing them. The reason for this wasn't revealed until BW when you find her as a powerful Psychic Elite Four member. As a child she would have tantrums whenever she lost battles and her powers would go wild (you can see some bit of this as she tells Darach to give the player Castle Points "At once!" upon winning). So to prevent that Darach battled in her place until she have matured. By then she moved from a Sinnoh Frontier Brain to a Unova Elite Four member, coming to Unova to hone her power.
Kalos Elite Four:
(Not going to cover them that much since we're still in Gen VI)
Malva: A member of Team Flare, she's very passionate about their goals seeing it as necessary to do. But we don't really find out much about her, just her loyalty to Team Flare. She's easy to anger and isn't afraid to threaten you though nothing comes from it so either she's bluffing or knows she'll achieve nothing in doing so. She's also concern with the intriguing of Team Flare, one reason for her agreeing to help the player and Looker arrest Xerosic is because she believes he's using Team Flare resources to experiment on a child (she totally okay killing them blindly, though). She's also the Holo Caster reporter, providing her more ways to help Team Flare by creating cover up stories for their activities though otherwise tells the news as is.
Siebold: A passionate chef, he sees the art in everything if you put a bit of skill into it be it cooking or battling. Anyone who disagree with him is met with him scolding them for being a bit close minded.
Wikstrom: Has a very proud and chivalrous attitude, even speaking in ye olde speake. He looks forward to having a honorable match against the player and making a dramatic scene whether he wins or lose.
Drasna: Her grandparents are from Sinnoh having grown up around the myths of Dialga and Palkia leading to her fascination with Dragon-types. Otherwise she's just a kind elderly woman.
Aside from Will and Karen there's at least something for them to build on with many of the other Elite Four. However for the most part the game just treats them as most bosses or at worse roadblocks you need to overcome to face the Champion. Many seem like interesting characters and I'd like to know about them or at the very least how they came to be a member of the Elite Four.
I would like to see more character development in Agatha, what is the true backstory with her and prof. Oak. Also, isn't Siebold closed minded if he can't accept other opinions outside his own?
What's funny about that is that's the ONLY Pokemon I was able to chain shiny. (I even did it twice)
Who? Oh yeah, the guy who I would completely wreck with my Gengar in SoulSilver.
Yeah, the Elite Four has so many forgettable members. For example, who remembers Aaron from DPPt?
20 minutes? It takes me about 2 minutes a Heart Scale. Though I do use a Trevenant with Frisk and Thief (which OHKOs the Luvdisk in which ever town has the Rock gym in Kalos), which speeds up the process. Also, Compound Eyes helps even more.
Let me introduce you to the wonderful concept of hypocrisy.
Now I'm not going to list all the Pokemon as many of them make sense, but here are a few that stand out to me:
Pikachu (really? Pikachu? Why, because its a mouse? Where's Raichu then? It's an even bigger mouse with a long tail!)
Ditto (I'm sorry, I know it was probably picked because it can turn into a double of you, but come on. It's base form is a pink blob that's a smiley)
Unown (yes, they're reality warpers and they have some weird stuff connected to them. But at the same time THEIR LETTERS)
Whismur (... I can sort of understand its evolutions being on the list but why Whismer? I guess whispering can be creepy but I don't think Whismer does that kind of creepy whispering)
Baltoy (Claydol maybe since its based on a weird ancient Japanese figurine called a Dogu, but Baltoy? It's a spinning top, it barely counts as a Dogu)
Also here are some not on the list I find a tad bit creepy and/or scary: Beedrill, Tentacool family, Vullaby family, Tyranitar, Pinsir, Scyther family, Kabutops, Vespiquen, Aerodactyl, and Tyrantrum to name a few. Also Vivillon because 666.
Banette? Pumpkaboo? Trevenant? Gengar?
I kind of assumed the E4 (and gym leaders, for that matter) were essentially government employees. Of course, that's a whole new can of worms since I don't think the Pokemon world even has an actual centralized government.
I finished Omega Ruby yesterday and found something that really annoyed me. Why are we the only ones forced to use Hidden Machines(HM)? Like you would be going around places that requiere cut, rock smash, surf, waterfall and strength to navigate but no NPC ever has ever used those moves against me.
In ORAS's Victory road you need at least 3 HMs to navigate it yet you face against ace trainers with a single pokemon with no HM moves at all.
How did they even get there with a single pokemon and without HMs? There's even a female ace trainer that only has a Froslass... Froslass can't learn any HM moves¬¬
I know this is an issue that has been part of the series since the beggining but why haven't they fixed this? D: It just doesn't make sense.
In ORAS's Victory road you need at least 3 HMs to navigate it yet you face against ace trainers with a single pokemon with no HM moves at all.
How did they even get there with a single pokemon and without HMs? There's even a female ace trainer that only has a Froslass... Froslass can't learn any HM moves¬¬
I know this is an issue that has been part of the series since the beggining but why haven't they fixed this? D: It just doesn't make sense.
Are you complaining them being on the list? Because to me those are understandable. Banette is a doll that has come to life out of a grudge and seeking vengeance on the child who abandoned it. Pumpkaboo carries the spirits of the dead in their bodies (and its evolution is horrifying if you read the Pokedex). Trevenant will trap those who cause harm to the forest so that they may never leave (and remember its pre-evolution are the spirits of dead children possessing tree stumps). And Gengar mimics someone's shadow to skulk and scare them, gives shivers by suddenly lowering the temperature, and if it really feels malicious is able to cast curses on unsuspecting victims.
I'm sure it does, but we just don't care because we're focusing on being a Pokemon trainer and that's sanctioned by the Pokemon League. It seems like the Pokemon League was made to handle all things Pokemon; like it's just another government department like the Food & Drug Administation or the Department Of Education. Thus if anyone uses Pokemon to try and take over the world its the Pokemon League's duty to handle that since they have access to the strongest trainers.
Because we're a kid unequipped to do what the HMs do while a lot of these characters are older so probably have the skills, tools, or strength to get around more easily than we can. Why can't we learn these skills or have those tools? Because we have our Pokemon, they are our tools to explore the world.
Oh no, I didn't read your post clearly. I thought the mons you stated were the only ones on the list and I was puzzled that Banette and friends weren't on there.
Also, why is Raticate on the list? First thing to mind is the Gary's Raticate theory, but would GF incorporate that?
Giant rat.
The Pokemon Breeder Trainer Class. If I just curb stomped you 5 minutes ago, why do you think the result will be different now when I was just trying to get past?
Or I am now the Champion of the region, why would you challenge me with the same team that I curbstomped when I was a rookie?
Or I am now the Champion of the region, why would you challenge me with the same team that I curbstomped when I was a rookie?
In the original RSE games I found them nice for grinding. But then I was nuzlocking at the time so meh. I remember they didn't do the '!' thing and come to you, but if they do in ORAS I can understand the annoyance.
Doesn't change the fact that they are time-wasters and sometimes when you are trying to raise a weak mon or most of your mon are in red and you want to go to the pokemon centre.
I recall there being some NPC trainers with HMs. For instance in HGSS I'm pretty sure there was a trainer in Mt. Mortar with a Waterfall Seadra... always felt kind of nice.
Probably as annoying as how Lance uses illegal moves on his Pokemons.
That is just an excuse you made up that doesn't make sense. Throughout the game you can see AceTrainers using surf and on other games trainers will tell you they are stuck because they don't a specific HM to move on. It is just another inconsistency of the games like when you defeat trainers but they don't black out and end up in a pokemon center like the player does.
yeah the swimmer trainer class can swim but that doesn't mean they can swim up watefalls or move huge boulders. The fact is only your character needs to use all these HMs.
All I'm saying is it'd be nice and make sense if you see trainers use strength or other HMs in places this moves are necessary.
Of course its an excuse I made up (and I think its a rather good excuse), anything someone comes up with would be an excuse. You want to know what the actual answer is? It's because the game designer said so. There, that's it. That's the real answer. Boring isn't it? These trainers don't need the HMs because they're not real, they're just lines of code in a video game to provide the player someone to battle with as they go through that area to provide experience for their Pokemon and add in some action. They're not running around the region like the player is, they were placed in that exact spot by the game designer and will remain in that spot for all eternity. Thus, they don't need HMs. Would it make any difference if they did have the HM moves? No, it wouldn't, if anything it may limit the Pokemon selection they can have.
I think the MST3K Mantra comes into play here:
If you're wondering how NPCs don't need HMs,
And other game mechanics.
~Fa la la~
Then repeat to yourself "its just a game,
I should really just have fun."
I did have fun I was just compaining about something that annoyed me, which is what this thread is about... I don't think the reason you gave makes sense or is a good excuse considering the Ace Trainers you can find surfing on top of pokemon don't even have a pokemon with surf. It's is just bad design.
No, he just learned how to ride on top of his Pokemon without needing Surf. Surf is just a shortcut, the Pokemon to teach it to instantly learns how to keep you on top of it without you falling off of it. The Ace Trainer meanwhile practiced riding on top of his Pokemon requiring the skill to do so without needing the Pokemon knowing the HM. If anything the Ace Trainer's skill is more versatile as he/she can now ride on top of any large Pokemon who's capable of swimming while the player has to teach his/her Pokemon Surf thus filling up a move slot.