You're right for the most part, but if you're running SR you're probably running a lead set, which has already been discussed earlier in the thread. NP can work, but it's hard to make work between playing mind games with Bisharp, being walled By Unaware Clef on stall, and getting torn in two by faster mons on HO like Mlop, Weavile, Talonflame, Mzam, Torn-T, and a wide verity of scarfers. I wouldn't mind seeing Azelf move up a subrank, but nothing too drastic.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
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You're right for the most part, but if you're running SR you're probably running a lead set, which has already been discussed earlier in the thread. NP can work, but it's hard to make work between playing mind games with Bisharp, being walled By Unaware Clef on stall, and getting torn in two by faster mons on HO like Mlop, Weavile, Talonflame, Mzam, Torn-T, and a wide verity of scarfers. I wouldn't mind seeing Azelf move up a subrank, but nothing too drastic.
you can easily run an offensive rocker. excy, garchomp, and diancie all do it already.
yeah it doesnt solo the whole tier or anything. the same thing applies to NP thundy or pretty much any NP/SD attacker that doesn't have priority. that's why i said to use it to support another sweeper. e.g. they sack something (or make a ballsy play) to bring in weavile/bish safely, then you have a pup lopunny which can get +1 on them safely. azelf is mainly used on offense anyway so it doesnt have to be able to 6-0 anyone.
mod edit: combined posts
yeah but aside from heatran they all eat shit from flamethrower anyway.
even then HO tends to mainly run explosion for the free switch and denying hazard removal, and can play off not getting mileage out of it. like when you click explosion youre either gonna kill/cripple something or they switch to a steel/gengar/wall. so when teambuilding you should make sure that you can threaten heatran or ferro or a hippo at 60%. keep the pressure on and try to chain shit together.
its kind of besides the point though. you have to be prudent with using every move besides scald anyway.
yeah it doesnt solo the whole tier or anything. the same thing applies to NP thundy or pretty much any NP/SD attacker that doesn't have priority. that's why i said to use it to support another sweeper. e.g. they sack something (or make a ballsy play) to bring in weavile/bish safely, then you have a pup lopunny which can get +1 on them safely. azelf is mainly used on offense anyway so it doesnt have to be able to 6-0 anyone.
mod edit: combined posts
yeah but aside from heatran they all eat shit from flamethrower anyway.
even then HO tends to mainly run explosion for the free switch and denying hazard removal, and can play off not getting mileage out of it. like when you click explosion youre either gonna kill/cripple something or they switch to a steel/gengar/wall. so when teambuilding you should make sure that you can threaten heatran or ferro or a hippo at 60%. keep the pressure on and try to chain shit together.
its kind of besides the point though. you have to be prudent with using every move besides scald anyway.
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Azelf is ranked for the lead set and that's it dropped because it's not all that good. The set mentioned by unfixable is something to consider, but Nasty Plot is hardly viable and isn't something that could increase its viability. All out attacker sets are similar because they are mostly outclassed by Alakazam which isn't outsped by Scarf Tyranitar, is stronger and has a better ability.
In an effort to change the topic (<.<) I kind of think Tyrantrum should drop to C+. Been playing with it lately, primarily LO DD and it's pretty cool as it checks Talonflame really nicely and can smash a lot of things. Unfortunately doesn't always get a chance to set up, while being outsped by Lopunny at +1 and hit super effectively by common priority just hurts it. Not sure if it ever deserved B- but I'll have to play with Lum Berry and Band sets a bit more so I can solidify my argument and take into account meta trends and whatnot
In an effort to change the topic (<.<) I kind of think Tyrantrum should drop to C+. Been playing with it lately, primarily LO DD and it's pretty cool as it checks Talonflame really nicely and can smash a lot of things. Unfortunately doesn't always get a chance to set up, while being outsped by Lopunny at +1 and hit super effectively by common priority just hurts it. Not sure if it ever deserved B- but I'll have to play with Lum Berry and Band sets a bit more so I can solidify my argument and take into account meta trends and whatnot
I'd probably second this nom. Tyrantrum is vulnerable to all forms of status, is frail on the special side, and is weak to priority ice shard and Mach punch (albeit, resistant to Talons BB.) I've used the choice variants, and as fun as spamming head smash is, it has common answers on Stall and balance. Low speed has been mentioned, and the competition it faces in the form of Malt, Gyarados, Mzard, and Gatr make it hard to hold its footing in B- Rank.
I think that mamoswine should prolly drop a little bit. It loses to most of the a-rank, because it can't outspeed the pokemon's that can 1hko it (which is a lot because of the typing), and the ones it can outspeed it doesn't always beat (skarm, ferro, scizor, etc.). You could go alexwolf and run HP fire or something to lure those mons, but it isn't really worth it. Freeze dry can lure rotom, I guess, but the mons that rotom checks are sort of dying down anyway, and rotom isn't terribly hard to wear down in the first place.
I don't see any conceivable niche aside from "meh it's a good pokemon kind of even though it's outclassed". Weavile is just a better offensive ice Mon with bad defensive typing. They are 1hkod by the same priority moves, but weavile can outspeed not-priority. The strong ground move role is already pretty stacked, and ice ground coverage can be done better by kyu-b (I would argue that special ground coverage is better than phys)
I don't see any conceivable niche aside from "meh it's a good pokemon kind of even though it's outclassed". Weavile is just a better offensive ice Mon with bad defensive typing. They are 1hkod by the same priority moves, but weavile can outspeed not-priority. The strong ground move role is already pretty stacked, and ice ground coverage can be done better by kyu-b (I would argue that special ground coverage is better than phys)
mamoswine definitely shouldn't drop, its incredibly antimeta right now and really fucks up this offensive meta because its stabs are arguably even better than weaviles. its got great defensive utility on offense because it switches into electrics so easily and doesn't get worn down as easily as kyub does. besides, kyubs sitting in a right now compared to mamo in b+, so wanting to drop it based on their competition is a pretty questionable idea when they're clearly set apart right now by 2 subranks and an entire rank when compared with weavile. b+ is perfectly fine and honestly, it's closer to rising than dropping if anything.
You just made lots of blanket statements with no support.
It most definitely doesn't hinder offensive teams given its relatively crap speed and bulk (complemented by its objectively poor defensive typing). You are thinking of weavile.
The point of weavile/mamo (in the context of that comparison) is strong physical ice moves. Weavile struggles vs keldeo, but mamo struggles vs the half of the meta that is faster than it.
Kyu-b doesn't actually get worn down that easy between the bulk, resistances, and recover access. Two subranks isn't a lot; outclassed is outclassed. Lots of the D/C mons are in there because they are outclassed by better mons in A.
What does it actually beat compared to its peers? As mentioned, you didn't actually write anything aside from it faring well against electric types.
It's usage (barely top 100 in 1825 stats @ .8%) speaks for itself. There is a reason why there is such a monstrous disparity between kyub, weavile, etc. and mamoswine, and that reason isn't that it is close to rising a rank lol
Nice badges, tho.
The subrank disparity is enough to set those three ice types apart. It's humorous that you threw out the term blanket statement then prior implied that mons that are annoyed by Rotom-W are dying down in usage, lol, that's a good one. Most of the three have the same similar traits in that most rockers and hazard removers are hindered by all of them in some sort of way. Unless you're implying defensive steels as in bulky Mega Scizor and defensive Skarmory as the checks then I'm pretty confused where you got the idea that most of these are mandated as good switch ins. Most of the B stuff aren't on par with Mamoswine, seeing as how their offensive potential either needs way more support (see Beedrill), or are just a different category of roles where there isn't much to argue. It's fine where it's at, the way you worded half your stuff I can tell you haven't been using it lately so I took the liberty of giving you a set just for you!!!!
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
If you want to be a lame by all means use Jolly. Adamant nets the KO on Torn-T after rocks with Shard and is debatably a much better nature to be using. Knock Off is an option on the last slot to supplement a Magnezone + Mamoswine combo.
Usage stats being the foundation of effectiveness, yawn
Cute line at the end.
Edit: Oh and Tyrantrum kind of blows.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
If you want to be a lame by all means use Jolly. Adamant nets the KO on Torn-T after rocks with Shard and is debatably a much better nature to be using. Knock Off is an option on the last slot to supplement a Magnezone + Mamoswine combo.
Usage stats being the foundation of effectiveness, yawn
Cute line at the end.
Edit: Oh and Tyrantrum kind of blows.
This might be an odd one, but I'm going to talk about Gourgeist-Super to C+.
Grass/Ghost is an interesting typing, and on the current ladder hazard stacking is incredibly powerful, so having a spinblocker who beats Excadrill is a godsend. Excadrill can do absolutely nothing to it and gives Gourgeist a free turn to Seed/Sub/WoW/whatever decides to come in. This means that having a suicide lead who sets up rocks can be incredibly powerful as rocks become harder to remove.
Defog means Gourgeist will probably never leave C ranks, but paired with Bisharp you have Pokemon who can stop or at least punish those who try to remove hazards.
Another boon for him is how good Breloom is right now. Loom is amazingly anti-meta but Gourgeist shuts it down entirely. There are others who do, yes, but it means he can fill other roles.
Less offensive Starmie sets also can do nothing, but those with Ice Beam 2HKO, so be careful trying to spinblock Starmie.
Therein lies Gourgeist's major flaws - Water types who he should wall always carry ice moves, which make him pretty easy to play around, but I do like Gourgeist on some teams.
Feel free to shut me down, but thought I'd add my thoughts on this interesting 'mon.
Grass/Ghost is an interesting typing, and on the current ladder hazard stacking is incredibly powerful, so having a spinblocker who beats Excadrill is a godsend. Excadrill can do absolutely nothing to it and gives Gourgeist a free turn to Seed/Sub/WoW/whatever decides to come in. This means that having a suicide lead who sets up rocks can be incredibly powerful as rocks become harder to remove.
Defog means Gourgeist will probably never leave C ranks, but paired with Bisharp you have Pokemon who can stop or at least punish those who try to remove hazards.
Another boon for him is how good Breloom is right now. Loom is amazingly anti-meta but Gourgeist shuts it down entirely. There are others who do, yes, but it means he can fill other roles.
Less offensive Starmie sets also can do nothing, but those with Ice Beam 2HKO, so be careful trying to spinblock Starmie.
Therein lies Gourgeist's major flaws - Water types who he should wall always carry ice moves, which make him pretty easy to play around, but I do like Gourgeist on some teams.
Feel free to shut me down, but thought I'd add my thoughts on this interesting 'mon.
I used gourgeist extensively for around 3 weeks on the ladder, and it is a lot better in theory than in practice. While it is nice for its spin-blocking capabilities, it has a lot of flaws that really mitigate its effectiveness.
Its only reliable recovery move is synthesis: on top of having only 8 pp, synthesis being weather-dependent is also extremely shitty, especially for the niche gourgeist fills (spin-blocking drill). Excadrill is commonly paired with sand, making it extremely difficult for gourgeist to consistently switch in since synthesis only heals 25% in sand on top of it canceling out leftovers. Its abysmal speed also makes it complete taunt bait, and makes it very difficult to check shit like azu or manaphy.
It is also absurdly passive, and anything it can't hit super-effectively with its limited movepool can basically set up on it for free (CM manaphy even beats it 1v1 with or without scald burns). Gourgeist gives a free switch in to clefable, heatran, zard x or y, talonflame, torn, gliscor etc, all which can use gourgesit as set up bait. basically anything that isn't a physical attacker and it can't burn is going to beat it 1v1.
As far as defensive starmie goes, the second gourgeist gets burned with scald, it loses 1v1 to starmie; if its reflect type, it loses anyway. Overall in practice gourgeist has an extremely hard time dealing with water types because of scald, and its pretty mediocre attack when not invested.
In general gourgeist's limited movepool, semi-reliable recovery, weather-dependency,and passiveness makes it really difficult to justify fitting on a team. Its not as bad as shit like forretress, but I don't see it being as effective overall as the majority of C+ rank (especially nidoking): C rank is fine.
In the other hand we have Discussion slate, so here my thoughts:
- Mega Gardevoir A -> A+ : Totally agree with this, since XY fairies always being a strong type and Gardevoir isnt an exception. Dispite the poor physical bulk + average speed tier is a great wallbreaker, especially because had access to coverage move that annihilate his switch ins such as Steels ( Focus/HP Fire), Poison (Psychic STAB), and an amazing ability paired with Hyper voice hit everything in the tier for a lot of damage. This mon shine more now cuz sableye become more popular and also the metagame become a bit bulkier like builds with Ferro/Clef/Slowbro.
- Volcarona A- -> B+ : yeah i already talk bout this before, it need too much support and the chance of set up are really low in the current metagame.
- Diggersby B+: It should stay on this rank, because is an excellent wallbreaker as well dispite of the poor speed tier have an amazing power. Recently tried AoA Digger with EQ/Return/Quick/Fire punch with LO Jolly nature and really like how it work this set. Break teams by himself because there isnt safe switch ins just need a bit of hazard support, the bulk isnt than great but can take a few none super effective moves, even can take HP ice from Mega Man if needed.
- Zapdos B : not agree on this one too. Zapdos is a great wall with access to Pressure with help to stall out another walls, access to Defog + Roost which make it a reliable defogger. Great check to talonflame and scizor which are too annoying mon right now, also can fit the rol of pivot cuz access to Volt-Switch, its only B cuz the defensive set, althought i've try offensive Zapdos in the past and it was p decent but isnt powerfull at all and SR up lower the longevity in the offensive set cuz u lack recovery.
It's beyond me how Tornadus-T is not S rank lol.
In the transition from BW to ORAS he lost rain support which is a pretty big deal obviously but in turn got knock off, which allows this thing to do what made it broken even better than before: outlive its "counters" thanks to its retardedly good ability and wreck shit in the lategame. You got a rotom, a heatran or a clefable? Lemme knock their lefties off and its just a matter of turns (or better, u-turns) before theyll go down. Other lolchecks like diancie dont even have recovery so yeah its even easier to beat them as the regenerator guy has always the edge.
U-turn is a staple but lets not undervalutate the fact that knock/power/hurri/wave achieves basically perfect coverage and with a life orb (its best item btw) the bird can dent any type of team: fat ones thanks to how stupid resilient this thing is to residual damage, offense thanks to the excellent speed tie.
Scrolling the list of A+ threats I see a bunch of things which are trashed by Tornadus or are supposed to check him but for the previously mentioned reasons they really don't. This might not be a good argument for the promotion but it's just to say how Tornadus is far superior to the average A+ threat.
Literally the only single precise downside of T-T is the shitty accuracy of hurricane, which makes it not so easy to spam, and I myself lost a few games to that. Then again, the fact that the most realiable way to check a mon is to hope for it to miss from time to time should make niggas think.
EDIT: sorry for deviating from the topic being discussed eheh bboys!
In the transition from BW to ORAS he lost rain support which is a pretty big deal obviously but in turn got knock off, which allows this thing to do what made it broken even better than before: outlive its "counters" thanks to its retardedly good ability and wreck shit in the lategame. You got a rotom, a heatran or a clefable? Lemme knock their lefties off and its just a matter of turns (or better, u-turns) before theyll go down. Other lolchecks like diancie dont even have recovery so yeah its even easier to beat them as the regenerator guy has always the edge.
U-turn is a staple but lets not undervalutate the fact that knock/power/hurri/wave achieves basically perfect coverage and with a life orb (its best item btw) the bird can dent any type of team: fat ones thanks to how stupid resilient this thing is to residual damage, offense thanks to the excellent speed tie.
Scrolling the list of A+ threats I see a bunch of things which are trashed by Tornadus or are supposed to check him but for the previously mentioned reasons they really don't. This might not be a good argument for the promotion but it's just to say how Tornadus is far superior to the average A+ threat.
Literally the only single precise downside of T-T is the shitty accuracy of hurricane, which makes it not so easy to spam, and I myself lost a few games to that. Then again, the fact that the most realiable way to check a mon is to hope for it to miss from time to time should make niggas think.
EDIT: sorry for deviating from the topic being discussed eheh bboys!
Azumarill ----> S Rank
This thing provides both incredible offensive and defensive utility for your team at once its unreal. With people spamming Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon as their main go to physical tanks, many teams struggle to find a decent switch in to Azumarill. In fact, Azumarill can come in on a myraid of Pokemon such as Garchomp, Latias, Weavile, Heatran, Keldeo, Tyranitar, etc. and click a move and just watch something on the opposing team die. With the severe decline of Mega Venusaur (who is incredibly easy to wear down with chip damage anyways) and gradual wane of Mega Scizor due to the prevalence of Tank Chomp/Mega Manectric/Talonflame teams, Azumarill finds itself putting in tremendous work mostly every single game. The CB set (the best one currently imo) is a nightmare for offense teams since they'll most likely be saccing a mon every time Azumarill comes in, and they can't go to Tank Chomp like they do with most other physical threats. Besides Garchomp, there are a myraid of other mons on offense Azumarill can come in on, including Latios, Keld, Bisharp, Weavile, Dragonite, Excadrill, etc. Vs stall teams, the CB set still does major work as it threatens out Mega Sab, and 2HKOes the relevant walls in Slowbro/Skarm/Quagsire with the appropriate move. Rotom-W, one of the mons people just slap on their team to "wall" Azumarill just gets 2HKOed by Play Rough/Superpower, and Ferrothorn is just a 50/50 depending on if you switch into Superpower or not. Belly Drum is one of the scariest threats for stall to face that don't have an unaware mon and can win games in an instant. I also don't know why everyone thinks Assault Vest is a shit set not worthy of running atm when it's actually pretty underrated and destroys offense. I get that its still really scary switching into Keldeo because of Scald burn chance, but once you look past that, AV Azumarill can pretty much take on every member on offense 1 v 1 such as Tornadus-T, Thundurus, Gengar, Alakazam, Gardevoir, and weakened Serperiors. Azumarill is without a doubt one of the hardest mons in the metagame to switch into.
Now obviously hitting extremely hard isn't enough to warrant a raise to S rank, but Azumarill boasts incredible defensive utility as well. For one, it provides you with extra assurance against both Rain and Sand teams. The ability to resist Kingdra's STABs, KO back, and use the rain boost to hit everything on the opposing team even harder and a buffed up priority to take on Kabutops & Tornadus-T is priceless if you're running any form of offense which usually has trouble with rain. The ability to immediately threaten Tyranitar/Hippo and stop Sand Excadrill from sweeping you as well as being a back up Keldeo switch in is also invaluable for any form of offense. Besides all the aforementioned mons, Azumarill can act as an emergency Zard-X check (we all know how hard those are to come by these days), Lopunny check, Weavile check, and can also take on Clefable by outspeeding and 2HKOing. There is practically no risk to using Azumarill because it will always put in work every game since the only two counters it has (Mega Venusaur & bulky Mega Scizor) are declining in popularity and nothing else in the metagame can sufficiently switch in safely. That to me is the definition of an S ranked threat.
Keldeo ------> S Rank
Similar to Azumarill, I believe this thing also fits the criteria for being S rank for the exact same combination of reasons (simple & risk free to use, provides both offensive power and defensive utility, puts in work every single game). However, while Azumarill has pretty much no guaranteed switch ins, Keldeo actually has plenty of common switch ins roaming the tier, yet it still has the capability to muscle pass all of them regardless.
The amount of Pokemon Keldeo can come in on and fire off a free attack against is ridiculous. Heatran, Hippo, Gliscor, Ferro, Skarm, Chansey, Landorus-T, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, etc: are all immediately threatened out by Keldeo and give it a free turn to attack or set up. Now, combine that with how Keldeo can cripple its common switch ins with a lucky Scald burn and how easy it is to chip away and wear down these mons, and its easy to see how Keldeo has always been a top tier threat. Keldeo can pretty much OHKO/2HKO the entire metagame unless your opponent has a slowbro/latias/venusaur/amoongus/starmie/torn-t/latios/altaria etc. Latis & Starmie can easily be trapped, rendering your only Keld switch in useless, Vensuaur is easy to wear down with burn damage, hazards, sandstorm, and shitty 8 synthesis PP, and Slowbro & Mega Altaria can actually get 2hkoed by specs hydro pump on the switch once its burned, factoring in SR. The ease in which you can get Keldeo into the game and severely weaken/cripple a Pokemon right from the start is why many people usually lead with Keldeo.
Besides being an offensive powerhouse, Keldeo offers a good typing defensively and can act as an extra defensive backbone against many common threats. Its one of the most splashable Bisharp & Mega Scizor counters in the tier; one of the few Weavile checks on offense, checks Crawdaunt, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Gyarados once it has evolved. It can also act as a desperate offensive pivot to Kyurem-b/Hoopa-U if you predict them firing their main offensive STAB and threaten to OHKO both in return. Also like Azumarill, its added insurance vs rain teams, since you can check Omastar/Kabutops/Mega Swampert and nothing on a rain team wants to switch into a Keldeo for obvious reasons. Keldeo's ability to come in numerous times throughout the match easily and slowly pick apart its switch ins, while OHKO/2HKOing the vast majority of the metagame is what makes it a S ranked Pokemon in my eyes.
Azumarill and Keldeo are both top tier threats in the metagame currently and everyone must be prepared for them. They practically define the current state of ORAS OU and have consistent high usage due to their splashability, offensive stats, and defensive utility. While Manaphy is perhaps the scariest out of the three for defensive builds to handle due to its abundance of sets and type coverage, Keldeo and Azumarill are overall much more consistent vs a variety of styles and will always put in work regardless. There is no reason to have Manaphy one rank higher than them. Raise Azumarill and Keldeo to S rank.
This thing provides both incredible offensive and defensive utility for your team at once its unreal. With people spamming Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon as their main go to physical tanks, many teams struggle to find a decent switch in to Azumarill. In fact, Azumarill can come in on a myraid of Pokemon such as Garchomp, Latias, Weavile, Heatran, Keldeo, Tyranitar, etc. and click a move and just watch something on the opposing team die. With the severe decline of Mega Venusaur (who is incredibly easy to wear down with chip damage anyways) and gradual wane of Mega Scizor due to the prevalence of Tank Chomp/Mega Manectric/Talonflame teams, Azumarill finds itself putting in tremendous work mostly every single game. The CB set (the best one currently imo) is a nightmare for offense teams since they'll most likely be saccing a mon every time Azumarill comes in, and they can't go to Tank Chomp like they do with most other physical threats. Besides Garchomp, there are a myraid of other mons on offense Azumarill can come in on, including Latios, Keld, Bisharp, Weavile, Dragonite, Excadrill, etc. Vs stall teams, the CB set still does major work as it threatens out Mega Sab, and 2HKOes the relevant walls in Slowbro/Skarm/Quagsire with the appropriate move. Rotom-W, one of the mons people just slap on their team to "wall" Azumarill just gets 2HKOed by Play Rough/Superpower, and Ferrothorn is just a 50/50 depending on if you switch into Superpower or not. Belly Drum is one of the scariest threats for stall to face that don't have an unaware mon and can win games in an instant. I also don't know why everyone thinks Assault Vest is a shit set not worthy of running atm when it's actually pretty underrated and destroys offense. I get that its still really scary switching into Keldeo because of Scald burn chance, but once you look past that, AV Azumarill can pretty much take on every member on offense 1 v 1 such as Tornadus-T, Thundurus, Gengar, Alakazam, Gardevoir, and weakened Serperiors. Azumarill is without a doubt one of the hardest mons in the metagame to switch into.
Now obviously hitting extremely hard isn't enough to warrant a raise to S rank, but Azumarill boasts incredible defensive utility as well. For one, it provides you with extra assurance against both Rain and Sand teams. The ability to resist Kingdra's STABs, KO back, and use the rain boost to hit everything on the opposing team even harder and a buffed up priority to take on Kabutops & Tornadus-T is priceless if you're running any form of offense which usually has trouble with rain. The ability to immediately threaten Tyranitar/Hippo and stop Sand Excadrill from sweeping you as well as being a back up Keldeo switch in is also invaluable for any form of offense. Besides all the aforementioned mons, Azumarill can act as an emergency Zard-X check (we all know how hard those are to come by these days), Lopunny check, Weavile check, and can also take on Clefable by outspeeding and 2HKOing. There is practically no risk to using Azumarill because it will always put in work every game since the only two counters it has (Mega Venusaur & bulky Mega Scizor) are declining in popularity and nothing else in the metagame can sufficiently switch in safely. That to me is the definition of an S ranked threat.
Keldeo ------> S Rank
Similar to Azumarill, I believe this thing also fits the criteria for being S rank for the exact same combination of reasons (simple & risk free to use, provides both offensive power and defensive utility, puts in work every single game). However, while Azumarill has pretty much no guaranteed switch ins, Keldeo actually has plenty of common switch ins roaming the tier, yet it still has the capability to muscle pass all of them regardless.
The amount of Pokemon Keldeo can come in on and fire off a free attack against is ridiculous. Heatran, Hippo, Gliscor, Ferro, Skarm, Chansey, Landorus-T, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, etc: are all immediately threatened out by Keldeo and give it a free turn to attack or set up. Now, combine that with how Keldeo can cripple its common switch ins with a lucky Scald burn and how easy it is to chip away and wear down these mons, and its easy to see how Keldeo has always been a top tier threat. Keldeo can pretty much OHKO/2HKO the entire metagame unless your opponent has a slowbro/latias/venusaur/amoongus/starmie/torn-t/latios/altaria etc. Latis & Starmie can easily be trapped, rendering your only Keld switch in useless, Vensuaur is easy to wear down with burn damage, hazards, sandstorm, and shitty 8 synthesis PP, and Slowbro & Mega Altaria can actually get 2hkoed by specs hydro pump on the switch once its burned, factoring in SR. The ease in which you can get Keldeo into the game and severely weaken/cripple a Pokemon right from the start is why many people usually lead with Keldeo.
Besides being an offensive powerhouse, Keldeo offers a good typing defensively and can act as an extra defensive backbone against many common threats. Its one of the most splashable Bisharp & Mega Scizor counters in the tier; one of the few Weavile checks on offense, checks Crawdaunt, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Gyarados once it has evolved. It can also act as a desperate offensive pivot to Kyurem-b/Hoopa-U if you predict them firing their main offensive STAB and threaten to OHKO both in return. Also like Azumarill, its added insurance vs rain teams, since you can check Omastar/Kabutops/Mega Swampert and nothing on a rain team wants to switch into a Keldeo for obvious reasons. Keldeo's ability to come in numerous times throughout the match easily and slowly pick apart its switch ins, while OHKO/2HKOing the vast majority of the metagame is what makes it a S ranked Pokemon in my eyes.
Azumarill and Keldeo are both top tier threats in the metagame currently and everyone must be prepared for them. They practically define the current state of ORAS OU and have consistent high usage due to their splashability, offensive stats, and defensive utility. While Manaphy is perhaps the scariest out of the three for defensive builds to handle due to its abundance of sets and type coverage, Keldeo and Azumarill are overall much more consistent vs a variety of styles and will always put in work regardless. There is no reason to have Manaphy one rank higher than them. Raise Azumarill and Keldeo to S rank.
Tornadus for S comes up a ton, but it never really pulls through for a couple of reasons.
I truly think that the biggest one is the unreliability. Tornadus checks a lot of stuff (a LOT of stuff); that's part of the reason that it is so good.
In practice, though, it frequently loses to a lot of these mons because it is relying primarily on an attack with 70% accuracy (fblast is also lacking if you are using it). There is less than a 50% chance of hitting two hurricanes. When your goal is to outspeed and threaten much of the metagame, particularly with your stab, this is really problematic. It isn't a case of "it is a plus that the opponent has to rely on a miss". Tornadus has switchins just like any other Mon. The yucky part is when the opponent decides to sack something to tornadus, but then that 30% chance ends up with tornadus getting ko'd instead. It has happened multiple times to all of us that a game was legitimately turned by an admittedly likely hurricane miss.
This means that you need a secondary check for almost everything that tornadus is trying to check. Tornadus is an excellent Mon, of course that causes lots of damage with knock off, taunt, u-turn, etc., but the fact that landing a crucial KO comes down to what is effectively an uncontrollable and higher-risk scald burn makes tornadus seem much less appealing (and definitely overrated).
I can't see it ever rising to S while it is held back by its accuracy, and I know that a lot of people agree (based on previous times when this has come up). There has never been a Mon in s that had held such a risk factor, iirc. Clef, charizard, sableye, etc. are at the pinnacle of reliability (literally, there isn't a sub-100 accuracy move in sight! haha). Thinking back to deoxys, genesect, landorus, aegislash: they are all pokemon that could sit there and do whatever they wanted to do 100% of the time (most of the time, that meant click stab move -> things die). Tornadus has the bulk, typing, ability, speed, etc to compete with these mons, but its honestly poor reliability at crucial points in the match keeps it well away from the too rank. U turning around can only get you so far in the mid/late game.
I don't think Tornadus-T is one of the best A+ ranks. In fact, I'd argue that it's one of the weakest A+ ranks and much more deserving than a drop than a rise. Going to try and be brief when explaining why, but I almost certainly won't so here goes the great big wall of text.
Okay so the first problem with Torn-T (which I'm mainly going to skim over since it's mostly incidental) are its raw stats. It's just not that bulky and not that strong. These two factors combined make the job of wearing down checks with Knock Off and U-Turn until they're removed far from a guarantee. As a result of its only okay bulk and typing, it can't come in on a lot of offensive mons, and thus can't find that many opportunities to wear those down. And though it can come in on bulkier stuff like Clef or Sableye, unless it runs a Life Orb (which worsens its bulk problem even more) it doesn't have the firepower to break a lot of of them, so they can just start setting hazards up or status stuff or set up. It can remove their item to wear them down and use them as a form of recovery, but these Pokemon will also be able to recover, so in terms of wearing stuff down, you're back to square one. And anything it "can" 2HKO with Hurricane on paper it rarely does in practice because of, you guessed it, Hurricane's truly shitty accuracy.
This is the main point I want to get to, the fact that Hurricane's accuracy is awful. As a result, Tornadus-T lacks a reliable source of damage. This simply cannot be dismissed as a silly quirk or a negligeable downside, it is a major flaw which heavily influences how Torn-T has to be used. It may be amazing at U-Turning, but as soon as it has to use its main STAB to deal actual damage, it's put into an uncomfortable position, since it's likely for it to miss. Sure, it *usually* hits, but over the course of the battle, if it uses it multiple times, it's going to miss multiple times. And whenever that happens, it tends to lead to really bad consequences, letting offensive stuff like Keldeo and Breloom smash you in the face, letting defensive stuff like Slowbro and Hippowdon status or attack you, and when Hurricane does hit, it's rarely for a KO since, as mentioned earlier, AV Torn-T simply doesn't hit that hard. And there's still the big risk of the opponent sending in something that can eat it up and steal momentum away from a Pokemon whose job is to gain momentum in the first place.
And people know this. Most Torn-T users rarely use Hurricane, instead favoring U-Turn. And you can play around that. If your opponent assumes Hurricane will miss, why should you assume it would hit? Seriously, keep Keldeo in on Torn-T and see what happens, from experience, they usually U-Turn. You can say that this is just relying on luck to beat it, but this isn't luck, this is risk assesement based on luck, which is a skill-based thing, one which helps playing with and against stuff like Torn-T. And besides luck is still a very important element which plays a huge role in viability. If Fissure were legal, woul Dugtrio be S rank? Probably not, since it would be very unreliable, and this goes for Torn-T too. So what you basically end up with is a Pokemon which rarely uses its only STAB, and I think it's pretty obvious why this is a problem.
And sure, you may one day go against the one guy that spams Hurricane and hits every single one. But you will never be that guy, you are a mere mortal who misses at the most crucial times and must take that into account. The way you react to Torn-T really depends on how it's used, but this goes both ways, you can't just spam U-Turn against an aggresive player and expect to win. And a Torn-T user can scout to see how his opponent plays and act accordingly, but once again, this goes both ways. Ultimately, Torn-T can quite easily be forced into unpleasant situations which can only be solved with luck. This makes it unreliable and inconsistent, 2 words which should not be used to describe any S rank, ever.
tldr; Torn-T relies far too much on things outside your control (luck and your opponent's way of playing) to be S rank.
Azumarill, on the other hand, I can totally see in S rank. Excellent glue on offense that checks huge threats to it, Band hits super hard, BD has liteally 1 counter and a half, heck avan AV isn't that bad on teams weak to Starmie and Alakazam and that prefer being able to switch moves around compared to the raw power of Band. Excellent mon with a lot of antimeta qualities all-around, and easily the best A+ rank imo.
Keldeo less so, my biggest gripe with it is that it's just too damn slow and can't really threaten offense, unless it's Scarfed which kinda blows vs anything from stall to bulky offense. Also II have bad memories of Weavile knocking off my Keldeo's Scarf and double flinching it with Icicle Crash. Azumarill doesn't get screwed by this kind of bullshit which is why I prefer it.
Okay so the first problem with Torn-T (which I'm mainly going to skim over since it's mostly incidental) are its raw stats. It's just not that bulky and not that strong. These two factors combined make the job of wearing down checks with Knock Off and U-Turn until they're removed far from a guarantee. As a result of its only okay bulk and typing, it can't come in on a lot of offensive mons, and thus can't find that many opportunities to wear those down. And though it can come in on bulkier stuff like Clef or Sableye, unless it runs a Life Orb (which worsens its bulk problem even more) it doesn't have the firepower to break a lot of of them, so they can just start setting hazards up or status stuff or set up. It can remove their item to wear them down and use them as a form of recovery, but these Pokemon will also be able to recover, so in terms of wearing stuff down, you're back to square one. And anything it "can" 2HKO with Hurricane on paper it rarely does in practice because of, you guessed it, Hurricane's truly shitty accuracy.
This is the main point I want to get to, the fact that Hurricane's accuracy is awful. As a result, Tornadus-T lacks a reliable source of damage. This simply cannot be dismissed as a silly quirk or a negligeable downside, it is a major flaw which heavily influences how Torn-T has to be used. It may be amazing at U-Turning, but as soon as it has to use its main STAB to deal actual damage, it's put into an uncomfortable position, since it's likely for it to miss. Sure, it *usually* hits, but over the course of the battle, if it uses it multiple times, it's going to miss multiple times. And whenever that happens, it tends to lead to really bad consequences, letting offensive stuff like Keldeo and Breloom smash you in the face, letting defensive stuff like Slowbro and Hippowdon status or attack you, and when Hurricane does hit, it's rarely for a KO since, as mentioned earlier, AV Torn-T simply doesn't hit that hard. And there's still the big risk of the opponent sending in something that can eat it up and steal momentum away from a Pokemon whose job is to gain momentum in the first place.
And people know this. Most Torn-T users rarely use Hurricane, instead favoring U-Turn. And you can play around that. If your opponent assumes Hurricane will miss, why should you assume it would hit? Seriously, keep Keldeo in on Torn-T and see what happens, from experience, they usually U-Turn. You can say that this is just relying on luck to beat it, but this isn't luck, this is risk assesement based on luck, which is a skill-based thing, one which helps playing with and against stuff like Torn-T. And besides luck is still a very important element which plays a huge role in viability. If Fissure were legal, woul Dugtrio be S rank? Probably not, since it would be very unreliable, and this goes for Torn-T too. So what you basically end up with is a Pokemon which rarely uses its only STAB, and I think it's pretty obvious why this is a problem.
And sure, you may one day go against the one guy that spams Hurricane and hits every single one. But you will never be that guy, you are a mere mortal who misses at the most crucial times and must take that into account. The way you react to Torn-T really depends on how it's used, but this goes both ways, you can't just spam U-Turn against an aggresive player and expect to win. And a Torn-T user can scout to see how his opponent plays and act accordingly, but once again, this goes both ways. Ultimately, Torn-T can quite easily be forced into unpleasant situations which can only be solved with luck. This makes it unreliable and inconsistent, 2 words which should not be used to describe any S rank, ever.
tldr; Torn-T relies far too much on things outside your control (luck and your opponent's way of playing) to be S rank.
Azumarill, on the other hand, I can totally see in S rank. Excellent glue on offense that checks huge threats to it, Band hits super hard, BD has liteally 1 counter and a half, heck avan AV isn't that bad on teams weak to Starmie and Alakazam and that prefer being able to switch moves around compared to the raw power of Band. Excellent mon with a lot of antimeta qualities all-around, and easily the best A+ rank imo.
Keldeo less so, my biggest gripe with it is that it's just too damn slow and can't really threaten offense, unless it's Scarfed which kinda blows vs anything from stall to bulky offense. Also II have bad memories of Weavile knocking off my Keldeo's Scarf and double flinching it with Icicle Crash. Azumarill doesn't get screwed by this kind of bullshit which is why I prefer it.
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Uh yeah so I disagree with Albacore I certainly think Torn would be closer to rising than dropping. Hurricane missing is a problem and definitely a major part of why it hasn't gone up but still has a ton of things going for it.
Walls it cannot 2HKO is more of a thing relegated to AV whereas LO can run Taunt and carries more firepower. I think the main thing with Torn that makes it so threatening is that it's a real bitch to check on offense and it also checks a ton of things including the recently risen Serp and Loom. Tons of team dependent options just makes it excellent glue for all types of builds and it is the best abuser of U-turn in the tier. Still see it in A+ as of this moment but when I see it on my opponents team I do sort of have a moment like when I see Manaphy or Clefable
Azu and Keld are both excellent mons and I think can certainly be looked at. I guess primary issues would be how damn common Keldeo switchins are and Azus awful speed tier relegating it to fewer kills per match. That said, both are really damn good and cover a lot of common threats to offense unlike Manaphy. Will provide a more in depth opinion later, but I think Azu is better
Walls it cannot 2HKO is more of a thing relegated to AV whereas LO can run Taunt and carries more firepower. I think the main thing with Torn that makes it so threatening is that it's a real bitch to check on offense and it also checks a ton of things including the recently risen Serp and Loom. Tons of team dependent options just makes it excellent glue for all types of builds and it is the best abuser of U-turn in the tier. Still see it in A+ as of this moment but when I see it on my opponents team I do sort of have a moment like when I see Manaphy or Clefable
Azu and Keld are both excellent mons and I think can certainly be looked at. I guess primary issues would be how damn common Keldeo switchins are and Azus awful speed tier relegating it to fewer kills per match. That said, both are really damn good and cover a lot of common threats to offense unlike Manaphy. Will provide a more in depth opinion later, but I think Azu is better
To address some points:
T-t's defensive stats are not bad by any mean especially on the special side. The fact that its offensive stats are not hoopa-level doesnt prevent the bird to wear down its counters either. Take Heatran for example, once you get rid of its lefties, stealth rock damage racks up like nothing, and considering heatran is also used to check a miriad of other threats you don't really need to uturn on him 100 times to kill it.
Meanwhile, tornadus loses 25% from sr at every switchin and flies away with 33% more health (or if life orb, only loses 2% of its health as it usually hits once and runs).
It's not the raw power that makes this pokemon so good, but rather its survivability.
Saying that most of the times it u-turns away making it predictable seems a shacky argument to me as predictions can really go both ways. Its also worth noting that in general the tornadus user is put in the stronger position in the mindgame scenarios: typical cases are tyranitar vs torn and keld vs torn. you can predict the uturn and go for pursuit / scald but the tornadus user is the one threatening to outspeed and kill so it's on the safer side.
On hurricane not being very reliable i agree as i said myself in my original post. Its not true however that missing one hurri always implies losing your tornadus as its bulky enough to tank hits from non offensive mons (and some offensive ones if vested) and go for it again. Lets also not forget about the sweet 30% chance of confusing who can also win games sometimes
EDIT below: I was talking of Superpower not Focus Blast who runs that shit ._.
And staying in on Keldeo is not a prediction, its the safe play, thus my point
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On Azumarill: in my opinion its not S material cause its rather easy to wear down and most importantly, too damn slow. Even some bulky mons outspeed it. The band set is also quite reliant on prediction and altough has the potential to do huge damage, in my experience it gets at best one kill and then dies or its damaged to the point where it cant do any more harm. The AV set doesnt have this problem but its significantly weaker. The drum set I think its quite overrated, again with Azu's crappy speed playin the main role as you will be forced to resort to aqua jet which is tanked by a lot of things even at +6. it also packs less bulk which makes more difficult for azu to fulfill its defensive duties, it's like a single-use glass cannon, it usually trades for one opposing mon and thats it
On Keldeo: I agree this guy is potentially S material. This is an interesting case because Keldeo is not S by itself but because of the all around beloved move that is Scald.
Defensive wise it is as good as Azumarill except its speed is pretty good. Offensive wise it will spam Scald 90% of the times with almost no need for prediction as the 30% burn chance will eventually beat its counters in conjunction with residual damage from burns and rocks.
ban scald
T-t's defensive stats are not bad by any mean especially on the special side. The fact that its offensive stats are not hoopa-level doesnt prevent the bird to wear down its counters either. Take Heatran for example, once you get rid of its lefties, stealth rock damage racks up like nothing, and considering heatran is also used to check a miriad of other threats you don't really need to uturn on him 100 times to kill it.
Meanwhile, tornadus loses 25% from sr at every switchin and flies away with 33% more health (or if life orb, only loses 2% of its health as it usually hits once and runs).
It's not the raw power that makes this pokemon so good, but rather its survivability.
Saying that most of the times it u-turns away making it predictable seems a shacky argument to me as predictions can really go both ways. Its also worth noting that in general the tornadus user is put in the stronger position in the mindgame scenarios: typical cases are tyranitar vs torn and keld vs torn. you can predict the uturn and go for pursuit / scald but the tornadus user is the one threatening to outspeed and kill so it's on the safer side.
On hurricane not being very reliable i agree as i said myself in my original post. Its not true however that missing one hurri always implies losing your tornadus as its bulky enough to tank hits from non offensive mons (and some offensive ones if vested) and go for it again. Lets also not forget about the sweet 30% chance of confusing who can also win games sometimes
EDIT below: I was talking of Superpower not Focus Blast who runs that shit ._.
And staying in on Keldeo is not a prediction, its the safe play, thus my point
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On Azumarill: in my opinion its not S material cause its rather easy to wear down and most importantly, too damn slow. Even some bulky mons outspeed it. The band set is also quite reliant on prediction and altough has the potential to do huge damage, in my experience it gets at best one kill and then dies or its damaged to the point where it cant do any more harm. The AV set doesnt have this problem but its significantly weaker. The drum set I think its quite overrated, again with Azu's crappy speed playin the main role as you will be forced to resort to aqua jet which is tanked by a lot of things even at +6. it also packs less bulk which makes more difficult for azu to fulfill its defensive duties, it's like a single-use glass cannon, it usually trades for one opposing mon and thats it
On Keldeo: I agree this guy is potentially S material. This is an interesting case because Keldeo is not S by itself but because of the all around beloved move that is Scald.
Defensive wise it is as good as Azumarill except its speed is pretty good. Offensive wise it will spam Scald 90% of the times with almost no need for prediction as the 30% burn chance will eventually beat its counters in conjunction with residual damage from burns and rocks.
ban scald
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The point is:
Good luck surviving when there is a 30% chance that your target will avoid the hurricane and land a hit/ko you.
Tornadus can go for the ko with focus blast on ttar (which the opponent will stay in on if they mispredict). The funny part is that focus blast only kos 70% of the time. The prediction for ttar is made a lot easier when the worst-case-scenario is even _less_ likely to occur than normal, not to mention the loss of turn, tornadus taking a hit or getting outright kod, etc.
Tornadus can hurricane a keldeo that stays in predicting the u turn. Great prediction for the tornadus user... Until that 70% kicks in and tornadus is kod, despite making the better play.
I dont know how a Mon that so frequently punishes excellent play at the most vital of moments can be justified for s-rank. There has never been a Mon in s that is as risky to play as tornadus. It has the quality of being incredibly splashable and beneficial to almost any team, of course, so it seems like a perfect example of low-risk, high-reward.
Until you realize that the higher risk is inherently built into the Mon. 50% of the time, it is an s-ranked Mon. The other 50%, it probably wouldn't even be in A.
Good luck surviving when there is a 30% chance that your target will avoid the hurricane and land a hit/ko you.
Tornadus can go for the ko with focus blast on ttar (which the opponent will stay in on if they mispredict). The funny part is that focus blast only kos 70% of the time. The prediction for ttar is made a lot easier when the worst-case-scenario is even _less_ likely to occur than normal, not to mention the loss of turn, tornadus taking a hit or getting outright kod, etc.
Tornadus can hurricane a keldeo that stays in predicting the u turn. Great prediction for the tornadus user... Until that 70% kicks in and tornadus is kod, despite making the better play.
I dont know how a Mon that so frequently punishes excellent play at the most vital of moments can be justified for s-rank. There has never been a Mon in s that is as risky to play as tornadus. It has the quality of being incredibly splashable and beneficial to almost any team, of course, so it seems like a perfect example of low-risk, high-reward.
Until you realize that the higher risk is inherently built into the Mon. 50% of the time, it is an s-ranked Mon. The other 50%, it probably wouldn't even be in A.
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Agreeing with azumarill, wcar summed it up.
In regard to keldeo:
I don't know why bw-style specs/ebelt with water move + secret sword + hidden power flying/bug/electric + icy wind/other water move fell out of style. It is, imo one of the best keldeo sets that you can run in this metagame. It's checks are common, yeah, but that is only because keldeo technically has so few switchins. Hitting celebi with an hp bug or venu with an hp flying or gyara/slowbro with hp electric can be huge. Expert belt is super underrated as well given that it lightens up prediction immensly, trading power of specs (which isn't too bad given how often the x1.2 will come into play) for massive unpredictability and easy elimination of its counters and checks. Ebelt opens the door to luring a whole bunch of other mons as well, like a chansey that thinks you are locked into a water move, or a hippo that thinks you are locked into sword. The mons that switch into keldeo are common checks to lots of offensive mons. Being able to lure and eliminate them is huge both for keldeo and for the rest of the team. The only mons that this doesn't entirely help with are tornadus and the fast electrics, however, not being locked into a move makes icy wind (predicting torn) is a much safer option than it otherwise would be. AV Raikou was the only electric that really has the ability to switch into keldeo, the others typically come in to revenge/with a free turn, but spamming scald (or icy wind + secret sword if raikou is worn down) is just as effective as it always is. It can't be overstated how nice it is to be able to use that solid coverage without the risk of being locked into a 60bp move.
Specs is really good, but the rank is debatable given that it is relatively reliant on prediction (or the rest of the team) to break through its checks. Ebelt should honestly make a come-back; the fact that keldeo has an unpredictable choice between crazy power, high speed, solid setup (sub cm), and great coverage/lure ability gives it plenty of merit for S imo.
In regard to keldeo:
I don't know why bw-style specs/ebelt with water move + secret sword + hidden power flying/bug/electric + icy wind/other water move fell out of style. It is, imo one of the best keldeo sets that you can run in this metagame. It's checks are common, yeah, but that is only because keldeo technically has so few switchins. Hitting celebi with an hp bug or venu with an hp flying or gyara/slowbro with hp electric can be huge. Expert belt is super underrated as well given that it lightens up prediction immensly, trading power of specs (which isn't too bad given how often the x1.2 will come into play) for massive unpredictability and easy elimination of its counters and checks. Ebelt opens the door to luring a whole bunch of other mons as well, like a chansey that thinks you are locked into a water move, or a hippo that thinks you are locked into sword. The mons that switch into keldeo are common checks to lots of offensive mons. Being able to lure and eliminate them is huge both for keldeo and for the rest of the team. The only mons that this doesn't entirely help with are tornadus and the fast electrics, however, not being locked into a move makes icy wind (predicting torn) is a much safer option than it otherwise would be. AV Raikou was the only electric that really has the ability to switch into keldeo, the others typically come in to revenge/with a free turn, but spamming scald (or icy wind + secret sword if raikou is worn down) is just as effective as it always is. It can't be overstated how nice it is to be able to use that solid coverage without the risk of being locked into a 60bp move.
Specs is really good, but the rank is debatable given that it is relatively reliant on prediction (or the rest of the team) to break through its checks. Ebelt should honestly make a come-back; the fact that keldeo has an unpredictable choice between crazy power, high speed, solid setup (sub cm), and great coverage/lure ability gives it plenty of merit for S imo.
Having used EBelt and SubCM in this metagame I will say both are frankly underwhelming. Life Orb with Taunt or RestTalk is easily better than those sets while Specs is still the best set because supposed switchins do take a lot of damage regardless especially if you can hazard stack.
Not really sure if S worthy; there's been a rise in things it checks like Dark types but that's in part due to the popularity of Psychic types and you also have Serperior which has seen a boost in viability. Overall I'd say a mixed bag for Keldeo and would honestly be more down to move Azu up on the basis of checking Sand and Zard while wallbreaking a bit better. Lack of speed hurts but its still getting a kill in basically any match without MVenu where Keldeo can be sorta dead weight in some outside of burn fishing if the opponent has a bunch of answers to it because lets be real the answers to Keld are a lot more solid than those for Azu
Not really sure if S worthy; there's been a rise in things it checks like Dark types but that's in part due to the popularity of Psychic types and you also have Serperior which has seen a boost in viability. Overall I'd say a mixed bag for Keldeo and would honestly be more down to move Azu up on the basis of checking Sand and Zard while wallbreaking a bit better. Lack of speed hurts but its still getting a kill in basically any match without MVenu where Keldeo can be sorta dead weight in some outside of burn fishing if the opponent has a bunch of answers to it because lets be real the answers to Keld are a lot more solid than those for Azu
I'd disagree with saying Torn-T is anything less than A+, ever. It almost always puts in work and real counters are few and far between and depend entirely on the move set Torn-T is running.
Regen + U-turn spam is pretty disgusting, STAB Hurricane is fantastic. AV sets provide great utility and reliability while LO sets decimate stall and alot of offense.
Its difficult to switch into and difficult to kill whilst being fantastically durable.
AM edit: deleted part about implying a suspect test.
Toxzn edit: S rank pls.
Regen + U-turn spam is pretty disgusting, STAB Hurricane is fantastic. AV sets provide great utility and reliability while LO sets decimate stall and alot of offense.
Its difficult to switch into and difficult to kill whilst being fantastically durable.
AM edit: deleted part about implying a suspect test.
Toxzn edit: S rank pls.
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Tornadus-T is deserving of A+ rank; S-rank is overrating it a bit much. It's true that an offensive Tornadus-T is one of the most difficult Pokemon to switch into, as it's capable of causing massive damages on both defenses. Knock Off, U-turn, and Hurricane are all very annoying moves. However, offensive Tornadus-T is nowhere near as tough as the Assault Vest one. As a result, it won't be able to switch into, say, a Life Orb Draco Meteor from Latios or a Shadow Ball from Gengar, to harass an opponent with one of its moves. It can only come in safely through a predicted Earthquake, when a teammate U-turns out, when one of your Pokemon faints, etc. Hurricane is also a very shaky move and can't be consistently relied upon. Offensive Tornadus-T's inability to safely switch in to absorb an attack and then retaliate is what keeps it from rising to another level.
Conversely, Assault Vest Tornadus-T is a great pivot and is sturdy enough to switch into a plethora of Special Attacks, including the two mentioned earlier, with relatively ease. But it lacks power to deal any significant damage and is more of an annoyance than it is a threat. It is also set up bait to several Pokemon. Both sets are highly viable, but each has its flaws. Good enough for A+ rank though.
Conversely, Assault Vest Tornadus-T is a great pivot and is sturdy enough to switch into a plethora of Special Attacks, including the two mentioned earlier, with relatively ease. But it lacks power to deal any significant damage and is more of an annoyance than it is a threat. It is also set up bait to several Pokemon. Both sets are highly viable, but each has its flaws. Good enough for A+ rank though.
I'd like to make a nom, or at least start a discussion. How about Kyurem-B to A+? It's got a really good spot in the metagame right now, threatening out bulky ground types and smacking the switch-in with the appropriate coverage move. Kyurem-B's best ability is being such a ridiculous threat against balance, but I have used it extensively and found that it also puts in work against offense, since unlike other wallbreakers it doesn't need to set up like manaphy or have ass physicical bulk like hoopa-U. I understand that it's threatened out with exploitable typing, but that same typing makes him a wonderful check to Mega Manectric, which is a pain for offense to deal with. My main point when making this nom is that unlike similar wallbreakers, it's not only not a dead weight against offense, it can actually be a significant threat to the opposing team, usually forcing them to sac anything that cannot OHKO Kyurem-B. It can even be an effective lure for ferrothorn and Scizor with HP fire. Scarf sets are shocks to offensive teams and can revenge Malt, Adamant Megazard X, and Mega and Normal Gyarados as well as dragonite. Granted, this nom might be a little out of place with Msable potentially being banned and breakers like Mcham becoming staples, but kyurem-B sets itself apart by taking on a wider variety of threats and having vastly superior bulk. Thanks!
I disagree with this. While i will admit kyurem-b is pretty solid currently A+ is a stretch. honestly i dont see it on the same level as other wallbreakers that rest in the A+ ranks. Kyurem-b is worn down really fast which while it does make for a decent mega mane check its also true that this wears kyurem-b down really fast which limits its switch ins. On top of that you also need to take hazards into account which also can somtimes prevent kyurem-b from properly checking said manectric. Honestly while i do agree that it can put work in vs offensive i also feel that other times depending on the team kyurem-b wont be able to do much vs offensive depending on the team. I say this because kyurem-b while not being slow is also not super fast which means its getting outsped by a ton of common offense pokemon like keldeo,garchomp,zam just to name a few. Scarf sets are pretty cool and ive used it a bit honestly as well as even using choice band and again while it does have a nice suprise factor its also true that choice scarf sets find switching in sometimes really hard. One of that sets best checks called mega scizor is really good right now and if rocks are up kyurem-b is forced out constantly by said mega scizor which means kyurem gets worn down fast. A+ is just way too high for this thing. Its a monster but its not A+ worthy in the slightest.
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Hey guys, I'm currently making an effort to improve my presence on Smogon.
My opinion is that Tornadus-Therian should stay right where it is, in A+ Rank. It's one of the metagame's premier pivots, and it has a diverse offensive and a usable utility movepool. It can run a somewhat defensively-oriented set, or an all-out attacker set, and more, and the brilliant combination of it's movepool, typing, ability and statistics make it a great check for many dangerous threats in OU, like Keldeo, Serperior, Scizor-Mega, Gengar, and Latios.
However, it's Flying Typing is kinda bad defensively which unfortunately gets it many strong hits on it, while it does allow it to check many threats.
It's Special Attack could stand to be better, so in many scenarios it finds itself needing to use a LO to deal considerable damage. Almost all of its sets do not address it's relatively low defense, so many physical attackers will not have a hard time OHKOing and 2HKOing it. It has a fantastic ability, Regenerator, that unfortunately is moderately hindered by it's weakness to Stealth Rock. Many of it's moves are subject to missing at the worst possible times, also.
I can't really see it ascending to S Rank, but I also cannot see it dropping either, at least not now. I think that A+ is the perfect rank for it in my opinion.
My opinion is that Tornadus-Therian should stay right where it is, in A+ Rank. It's one of the metagame's premier pivots, and it has a diverse offensive and a usable utility movepool. It can run a somewhat defensively-oriented set, or an all-out attacker set, and more, and the brilliant combination of it's movepool, typing, ability and statistics make it a great check for many dangerous threats in OU, like Keldeo, Serperior, Scizor-Mega, Gengar, and Latios.
However, it's Flying Typing is kinda bad defensively which unfortunately gets it many strong hits on it, while it does allow it to check many threats.
It's Special Attack could stand to be better, so in many scenarios it finds itself needing to use a LO to deal considerable damage. Almost all of its sets do not address it's relatively low defense, so many physical attackers will not have a hard time OHKOing and 2HKOing it. It has a fantastic ability, Regenerator, that unfortunately is moderately hindered by it's weakness to Stealth Rock. Many of it's moves are subject to missing at the worst possible times, also.
I can't really see it ascending to S Rank, but I also cannot see it dropping either, at least not now. I think that A+ is the perfect rank for it in my opinion.
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