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Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0
- Thread starter tazz
- Start date
I want to nominate
what ever this is ment to be:
Skorupi has many possitives sadly it can't be optimal in any of them neither all at once.
Type: Bug/Poison, Ability's: Sniper/Battle Armour.
Acces to a max of 17 speed, has 90 base defence aka starts at 15 defence sadly lacks HP(base 40), less effective special defence starting at 12 but that's still good.
Also lacks offencive force only having 50 base attack and an even worse 30 base special attack.
Now the possitive moves: Swords Dance, Agility ,Taunt ,Knock Off, Toxic Spikes and Whirlwind.
Stabs in Poison Jab/Cross Poison/X-Scissor/Pin Missile.
Also some interesting move coverage with Pursuit, Thief, Aqua Tail and Brick Break.
Is it outclassed? Acces to slighty higher attack then Venipede, still effective 17 speed, more use as a fast wall/Lead then wallbreaker however it could still break depending on coverage (so mutch 4MSS), unlike that little worm it has Knock Off, Taunt and Whirlwind allowing it to be a Phazer with Whirl+Toxic Spikes and or a Lead with Taunt + Toxic Spikes.
It's ability's aren't too usefull but i gues they can give some space to work with if you want a slightly gimmicky Sniper + Cross Poison or the answere to it's own gimmick Battle Armour. It's type brings possitives with Bug allowing it to wall Fight and deal with Psychic in Theory,
Poison brings it possitives with offence and walling Fairy, Fight and Grass slightly better, at cost of being useless against Psychic(not that it woudn't have been with pure bugg) and worse against Ground types.
Overall the niches it could have are small, but can still be effecitive(not that anyone would build around a core with a D pokes anyway but k >.>)
I Nominate this to be D rank, I could argue it can do more but i see no reason to hype this for C- rank knowing it just doesn't prove it's worth as far as i am awair of it.
PS: Acupressure is legit.
Sandile
Sandile has acces to Stone Edge, Earthquake, Pursuit/Crunch ,Taunt and Stealth Rock.
Notable moves also include Aqua Tail and Fire Fang.
Speed of max 17, Attack of 16 (no nature) and enough bulk to survive Timburrs Mach Punch or Croagunks Vaccume Wave with LO/Scarf
It's niche is known having Scarf use with Moxie, however i did rater include Life Orb even if it takes 2 HP every time it uses it (sad), but this allowes it to 2HKO all fight types including Timburr, Pancham (25-14), Scraggy, Mienfoo(Curse you scarfed Mienfoo).
It's ability's give it a slight space to work with having the not so usefull Intimidate only hindering it from checking Pawniard more effectively, the other ability Moxie however makes it amazing with Pursuit allowing it to get more then just a Kill, infact even threatening another poke to take Heavy damage.
Unlike the Scorpion noted above this one doesn't suffer as mutch from it's moveslots or offence as it should most effectively run any of the 5 basic moves noted above or if you want to run Scarf you aren't likely to run Taunt or Stealth Rocks on it(yea ok maby the last for those that are kings in bluffing it to not be Scarfed)
It's checks are limited and it should be noted that it's niche in Pursuit Trapping can be put to great use, (it should be noted that it needs Crunch in order to KO Gothita, Pumpkaboo and Frillish, or LO Pursuit but do note Gothita wouldn't mind that with Scarfed Energie Ball)
I want people to argue how high it should be up as i did infact rate it for C- or even C Mid. (but i can't decide anything anymore as examinations drain life and sleep away from my soul X_X)
Buizel
There is allot ot note about buizel but only few parts shine out.
While yes it's outclassed as a Bulk Up passer making Baton Pass seem useless, however even including that there is another use to it.
It's second niche the one in Water Veil + 19 Speed + 16 Attack + LO allowing it to effectively work as a physical fast water type.
Now this second niche while very small and practicaly no notable it sees use.
How about: Stab Priority, Immune to Burn, Momentum with Baton Pass, 19 Speed, proper enough offence to work with LO:
Yea sure these calcs may seem amazing however do note this is LO, compleatly walled by any Water Types, Croagunk and the priority of Aqua Jet is just weak not even KOing Scarfed Drilbur with Stealth Rocks up.
Have i also noted it kinda has problems with 4 Moves having to sacrifice a Coverage move or Aqua Jet for Baton Pass.
This is a stretch even for D, ... but i want to nominate it anyway :v.
Skorupi has many possitives sadly it can't be optimal in any of them neither all at once.
Type: Bug/Poison, Ability's: Sniper/Battle Armour.
Acces to a max of 17 speed, has 90 base defence aka starts at 15 defence sadly lacks HP(base 40), less effective special defence starting at 12 but that's still good.
Also lacks offencive force only having 50 base attack and an even worse 30 base special attack.
Now the possitive moves: Swords Dance, Agility ,Taunt ,Knock Off, Toxic Spikes and Whirlwind.
Stabs in Poison Jab/Cross Poison/X-Scissor/Pin Missile.
Also some interesting move coverage with Pursuit, Thief, Aqua Tail and Brick Break.
Is it outclassed? Acces to slighty higher attack then Venipede, still effective 17 speed, more use as a fast wall/Lead then wallbreaker however it could still break depending on coverage (so mutch 4MSS), unlike that little worm it has Knock Off, Taunt and Whirlwind allowing it to be a Phazer with Whirl+Toxic Spikes and or a Lead with Taunt + Toxic Spikes.
It's ability's aren't too usefull but i gues they can give some space to work with if you want a slightly gimmicky Sniper + Cross Poison or the answere to it's own gimmick Battle Armour. It's type brings possitives with Bug allowing it to wall Fight and deal with Psychic in Theory,
Poison brings it possitives with offence and walling Fairy, Fight and Grass slightly better, at cost of being useless against Psychic(not that it woudn't have been with pure bugg) and worse against Ground types.
Overall the niches it could have are small, but can still be effecitive(not that anyone would build around a core with a D pokes anyway but k >.>)
I Nominate this to be D rank, I could argue it can do more but i see no reason to hype this for C- rank knowing it just doesn't prove it's worth as far as i am awair of it.
PS: Acupressure is legit.
Sandile
Sandile has acces to Stone Edge, Earthquake, Pursuit/Crunch ,Taunt and Stealth Rock.
Notable moves also include Aqua Tail and Fire Fang.
Speed of max 17, Attack of 16 (no nature) and enough bulk to survive Timburrs Mach Punch or Croagunks Vaccume Wave with LO/Scarf
It's niche is known having Scarf use with Moxie, however i did rater include Life Orb even if it takes 2 HP every time it uses it (sad), but this allowes it to 2HKO all fight types including Timburr, Pancham (25-14), Scraggy, Mienfoo(Curse you scarfed Mienfoo).
It's ability's give it a slight space to work with having the not so usefull Intimidate only hindering it from checking Pawniard more effectively, the other ability Moxie however makes it amazing with Pursuit allowing it to get more then just a Kill, infact even threatening another poke to take Heavy damage.
Unlike the Scorpion noted above this one doesn't suffer as mutch from it's moveslots or offence as it should most effectively run any of the 5 basic moves noted above or if you want to run Scarf you aren't likely to run Taunt or Stealth Rocks on it(yea ok maby the last for those that are kings in bluffing it to not be Scarfed)
It's checks are limited and it should be noted that it's niche in Pursuit Trapping can be put to great use, (it should be noted that it needs Crunch in order to KO Gothita, Pumpkaboo and Frillish, or LO Pursuit but do note Gothita wouldn't mind that with Scarfed Energie Ball)
I want people to argue how high it should be up as i did infact rate it for C- or even C Mid. (but i can't decide anything anymore as examinations drain life and sleep away from my soul X_X)
There is allot ot note about buizel but only few parts shine out.
While yes it's outclassed as a Bulk Up passer making Baton Pass seem useless, however even including that there is another use to it.
It's second niche the one in Water Veil + 19 Speed + 16 Attack + LO allowing it to effectively work as a physical fast water type.
Now this second niche while very small and practicaly no notable it sees use.
How about: Stab Priority, Immune to Burn, Momentum with Baton Pass, 19 Speed, proper enough offence to work with LO:
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 18-26 (85.7 - 123.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 18-26 (78.2 - 113%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Chespin: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 13)
Hazards supported:
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 156 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Pancham: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 18-26 (85.7 - 123.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 18-26 (78.2 - 113%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Chespin: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 13)
Hazards supported:
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 156 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Pancham: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Have i also noted it kinda has problems with 4 Moves having to sacrifice a Coverage move or Aqua Jet for Baton Pass.
This is a stretch even for D, ... but i want to nominate it anyway :v.
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Spritzee has been moved down to A Rank. I would like to see discussion for the following things:
Snivy from A -> A+
Vullaby from A -> A+
Carvanha from A- -> A
Elekid from B -> B+
Lickitung from B- -> C+
I also don't mind discussion of lower-ranked mons, but I would like to make sure we have our higher-ranks sorted out first.
500K POSTS SUCK MY DICK OR SUCK IT REGARDLESS CUZ IM JUST THAT FUCKING WEIRD XD!
Snivy from A -> A+
Vullaby from A -> A+
Carvanha from A- -> A
Elekid from B -> B+
Lickitung from B- -> C+
I also don't mind discussion of lower-ranked mons, but I would like to make sure we have our higher-ranks sorted out first.
500K POSTS SUCK MY DICK OR SUCK IT REGARDLESS CUZ IM JUST THAT FUCKING WEIRD XD!
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Could always just use Return and NOT be walled by said mons.
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Frustration vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Frustration vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Need some chip obviously, but it gets the job done on hazard stack teams and has the speed to abuse said hazard support. You run into coverage issues with Return, but nearly everything in this tier has 4mss, nothing new there. And there is such a thing as team mates. Idk, not saying Buizel is good, but try and dig deeper next time you nom something.
anyway, rip Budew discussion :[
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I don't think Snivy should go to A+. It's a good mon, absolutely fantastic on webs, but it's not overly bulky and its coverage options are fairly easily walled. 17 speed is nice for an offensive mon, but it's not quite good enough considering how almost everything faster than it can annihilate it, and it ties with Archen when it really wants to outspeed it. In addition if it wants to run HP fire then it's even worse off. In addition, before a boost Snivy is incredibly weak, meaning that counters can switch in without much trouble.
However, it's still a very threatening mon. It's very much A rank, just not on the same level as the stuff in A+. Comparing it to Gastly, for example, the initial power difference is clear and the coverage difference is immense. Stay A.
Vullaby I've seen a lot more of, and I'm not really convinced it's A+, but I guess it could fit in.
Carvanha should move up. The popularization of Special Fish has made countering it harder, and to be honest it was A rank even without that unpredictability, if maybe borderline.
No opinion on Elekid, don't use it enough. I can see why it might be considered for moving up, but it's damn frail.
Lickitung is incredibly bulky, but the metagame is not friendly to it. It's just ok, so C+ would fit it. I don't use it much either, so I'd prefer people who use it with some regularity (if you're out there) to speak about its effectiveness.
However, it's still a very threatening mon. It's very much A rank, just not on the same level as the stuff in A+. Comparing it to Gastly, for example, the initial power difference is clear and the coverage difference is immense. Stay A.
Vullaby I've seen a lot more of, and I'm not really convinced it's A+, but I guess it could fit in.
Carvanha should move up. The popularization of Special Fish has made countering it harder, and to be honest it was A rank even without that unpredictability, if maybe borderline.
No opinion on Elekid, don't use it enough. I can see why it might be considered for moving up, but it's damn frail.
Lickitung is incredibly bulky, but the metagame is not friendly to it. It's just ok, so C+ would fit it. I don't use it much either, so I'd prefer people who use it with some regularity (if you're out there) to speak about its effectiveness.
Snivy in A+
Obviously Snivy struggles against different Pokemon depending on what Hidden Power it chooses, but it always has the potential to carry the Hidden Power that breaks past one's Snivy check. This versatility, coupled with its potential teammates, makes a Snivy a huge threat in almost every matchup (especially webs, it can generally guarantee your opponent remains cautious about setting them up). Plus, it serves as a switching to a variety of Pokemon and I'd argue that its mono-Grass typing makes it more of an asset to teams than Foongus or Ferroseed, simply due to its ability to switch into Ground-types with ease and instantly threaten the opposing team.
I'd also argue that the majority of A+ are Pokemon that players generally account for when teambuilding, making sure they have a solid answer to each and every one. Should a player disregard Snivy when building it becomes a major problem when matched up versus it, just as Fletchling, Gastly, Abra, or Magnemite would be. Put this snake in A+.
Vullaby in A+
Vullaby is just a really damn good Pokemon right now and it's not hard to see why. It's insanely bulky, surprisingly strong, and incredibly versatile with its possibly movesets. The offense pivot is probably the best at the moment, abusing Vullaby's slow U-turn and ability to soft-check Gastly / Abra / Fighting-types all in one slot. The fat Defog set is still as good as ever, and Nasty Plot and Choice Scarf can catch every player off guard while still remaining strangely effective. It's my go-to Pokemon in the current metagame and I've never found it to be deadweight in any matchup, throwing Knock Offs around like a motherfucker and pivoting into all of the Special Carvanhas that plague the tier. Definitely deserving of A+.
If A+ is to be comprised of Pokemon that fit this definition precisely, I don't see any reason to exclude Snivy from the ranking. Snivy can sweep a majority of the tier with Leaf Storm + Hidden Power [Coverage] and supports every team it's slapped onto with Glare and / or Knock Off; not to mention, it's sheer wallbreaking capabilities could be interpreted as supporting its teammates, opening holes for Pokemon such as Corphish and Special Carvanha to clean up. It also requires little to no support from other Pokemon to fulfill it's role because it's entirely self-sustaining with it's boosting and recovery.
Obviously Snivy struggles against different Pokemon depending on what Hidden Power it chooses, but it always has the potential to carry the Hidden Power that breaks past one's Snivy check. This versatility, coupled with its potential teammates, makes a Snivy a huge threat in almost every matchup (especially webs, it can generally guarantee your opponent remains cautious about setting them up). Plus, it serves as a switching to a variety of Pokemon and I'd argue that its mono-Grass typing makes it more of an asset to teams than Foongus or Ferroseed, simply due to its ability to switch into Ground-types with ease and instantly threaten the opposing team.
I'd also argue that the majority of A+ are Pokemon that players generally account for when teambuilding, making sure they have a solid answer to each and every one. Should a player disregard Snivy when building it becomes a major problem when matched up versus it, just as Fletchling, Gastly, Abra, or Magnemite would be. Put this snake in A+.
Vullaby in A+
Vullaby is just a really damn good Pokemon right now and it's not hard to see why. It's insanely bulky, surprisingly strong, and incredibly versatile with its possibly movesets. The offense pivot is probably the best at the moment, abusing Vullaby's slow U-turn and ability to soft-check Gastly / Abra / Fighting-types all in one slot. The fat Defog set is still as good as ever, and Nasty Plot and Choice Scarf can catch every player off guard while still remaining strangely effective. It's my go-to Pokemon in the current metagame and I've never found it to be deadweight in any matchup, throwing Knock Offs around like a motherfucker and pivoting into all of the Special Carvanhas that plague the tier. Definitely deserving of A+.
I'm going to have to say drop Lickitung to C+. Its main selling point is Oblivious, making it different from Porygon and Munchlax. It competes for a team spot with Spritzee, another cleric, who resists fighting, Lickitung's only weakness, and Spritzee overall has better typing. It also suffers flaws from being unable to get past wall breakers, particularly Fighting-types carrying Knock Off (Mienfoo, Timburr, et al). Furthermore, Lickitung can easily be set up on due to its sluggish speed.
(It could run a RestTalk set, but there's no reason to when Munchlax does that a lot better)
So I think it fits the C+ criteria well. (Decent, but has flaws that are somewhat noticeable)
(It could run a RestTalk set, but there's no reason to when Munchlax does that a lot better)
So I think it fits the C+ criteria well. (Decent, but has flaws that are somewhat noticeable)
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Lickitung: Short explanation:
Pro's:
-Enough special defence to take on some of the best special attackers and Wallbreakers in LC.
-Ability to WishPass and Healbell while being Immune to Taunt allowing it to be one of the best Clerics in LC.
-Acces to Dragon Tail, Body Slam for strong STAB and Knock Off to further enhance the ability to stop Ghost types and give support.
-Generaly wide special and physical coverage with Swords Dance and Curse to increase it's damage.
Con's:
-Slow
-Passive only having 12 Attack => Set up Bait especially how it drains away momentum by being forced to wish pass in order to effectively deal with the treaths it wants to deal with in the first place.
-Sees competition Type while and Roll whise by Spritzee as a Cleric and Munchlax/Porygon in everything else.
-Wide movepool doesn't give it anything special outside of uses with Curse/Swords Dance => Munchlax.
=> Overall only giving it a niche on Stall teams, what are uncommon and (currently)less effective, even on those stall teams the pokes that have a simalar niche also did like to take in the Roll, best possitive i have used so far is Double-Wish Pass but i again want to bring you to the set up Bait problem what stall teams generaly have and want to limit as mutch as possible.
I can fully see this poke going to C+
Pro's:
-Enough special defence to take on some of the best special attackers and Wallbreakers in LC.
-Ability to WishPass and Healbell while being Immune to Taunt allowing it to be one of the best Clerics in LC.
-Acces to Dragon Tail, Body Slam for strong STAB and Knock Off to further enhance the ability to stop Ghost types and give support.
-Generaly wide special and physical coverage with Swords Dance and Curse to increase it's damage.
Con's:
-Slow
-Passive only having 12 Attack => Set up Bait especially how it drains away momentum by being forced to wish pass in order to effectively deal with the treaths it wants to deal with in the first place.
-Sees competition Type while and Roll whise by Spritzee as a Cleric and Munchlax/Porygon in everything else.
-Wide movepool doesn't give it anything special outside of uses with Curse/Swords Dance => Munchlax.
=> Overall only giving it a niche on Stall teams, what are uncommon and (currently)less effective, even on those stall teams the pokes that have a simalar niche also did like to take in the Roll, best possitive i have used so far is Double-Wish Pass but i again want to bring you to the set up Bait problem what stall teams generaly have and want to limit as mutch as possible.
I can fully see this poke going to C+
Well licky's best use is the be a Wish passer and generaly this sees problems from Spritzee, however the type difference has few possitives, it does infact have high special defence or atleast high enough to wall some of the very best special attackers including Porygon, LO Abra, Gastly, Skrelp, something spritzee can't outside of Abra.
However it sees big competition with other specially defencive normal types including Porygon and Munchlax, who both obviously have the same ability to check these and do even more then that.
Licky also has another problem as it's offence while yea sure it has Knock Off, Dragon Tail and Body slam exept they come from only 12 Attack and sometimes it doesn't even run Knock Off(~40%) let allone the even more uncommon Dragon Tail(~20%), That is weak compaired to Munchlax with 18 attack.
Curse allowes it to get more offencive or Curse+ Resttalk but those are in everyway outclassed by Munchlax outside of Oblivious ability allowing it to prevent Taunt (what still is a big deal to note).
Dragon Tail the only move preventing it from being set up bait is limited by well, Fairy notably Cottonee that can still Encore you into it, movepool as it now can't run Healbell,Knock Off or Protect (small note)
Howmany teams do you see effectively running Licky in the current metagame? Not many to say the least however it sees use it Stall teams, who are also (currently) notably less effective then any other play style.
However it sees big competition with other specially defencive normal types including Porygon and Munchlax, who both obviously have the same ability to check these and do even more then that.
Licky also has another problem as it's offence while yea sure it has Knock Off, Dragon Tail and Body slam exept they come from only 12 Attack and sometimes it doesn't even run Knock Off(~40%) let allone the even more uncommon Dragon Tail(~20%), That is weak compaired to Munchlax with 18 attack.
Curse allowes it to get more offencive or Curse+ Resttalk but those are in everyway outclassed by Munchlax outside of Oblivious ability allowing it to prevent Taunt (what still is a big deal to note).
Dragon Tail the only move preventing it from being set up bait is limited by well, Fairy notably Cottonee that can still Encore you into it, movepool as it now can't run Healbell,Knock Off or Protect (small note)
Howmany teams do you see effectively running Licky in the current metagame? Not many to say the least however it sees use it Stall teams, who are also (currently) notably less effective then any other play style.
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pory is just really fucking good at what it does--the bulky attacker set is hard to kill thanks to it gret bulk and lack of weaknesses while still being able to 2hko almost the entire meta with tri attack/psychic/hp fire. wallgon is a phenomenal defensive pivot that can check all kinds of threatening shit such as diglett, foongus, houndour, etc. thanks to trace and spread cancer wave/generally be fat. its honestly almost as splashable as foo/archen and is definitely s imo
Snivy to stay A
I do not play LC very much, but hear me out.
Snivy, from what i have seen is an excellent wallbreaker, with access to a STAB Leaf Storm to give it +2 Spatk, and it has the benefit of a speed raise from webs, it can be a monster to deal with. Although it has some good checks of Bulky Grass types, and certain check of Flying, Steel and Poison types, and the multitude of pokemon that resist grass in LC, Snivy can only deal with certain ones if the have the right Hidden Power. But, even with these, Snivy can hurt a lot of common pokemon in the tier. Snivy decimates any water types in the tier, such as Carvanah, Corphish, Omanyte, and Shellder to name a few.
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Corphish: 34-42 (170 - 210%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Carvanha: 57-70 (300 - 368.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 42-49 (210 - 245%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. -1 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 57-70 (285 - 350%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 196 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 34-42 (154.5 - 190.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 62-78 (295.2 - 371.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 83-109 (395.2 - 519%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 47-62 (213.6 - 281.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Carvanha: 57-70 (300 - 368.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 42-49 (210 - 245%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. -1 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 57-70 (285 - 350%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 196 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 34-42 (154.5 - 190.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 62-78 (295.2 - 371.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 83-109 (395.2 - 519%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 47-62 (213.6 - 281.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Although it seems snivy has more checks and counters than other wallbreakers, he can hurt a lot of pokemon, even his checks fall if he has the right moves yet certain pokemon *couch* bronzor *cough* hurt snivy profusely.
Calcs for Ferroseed.
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 1-3 (4.5 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+4 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
+6 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-10 (40.9 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs For Foongus
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 3-4 (12 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs for Foongus against Snivy:
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snivy: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Calcs For Vullaby
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 5-8 (20 - 32%) -- 20.6% chance to 4HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Rock vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Rock vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs for Vullaby against Snivy
0 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 26-32 (123.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Calcs for Bronzor
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 14-17 (60.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 1-3 (4.5 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+4 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
+6 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-10 (40.9 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs For Foongus
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 3-4 (12 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs for Foongus against Snivy:
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snivy: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Calcs For Vullaby
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 5-8 (20 - 32%) -- 20.6% chance to 4HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Rock vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Rock vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs for Vullaby against Snivy
0 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 26-32 (123.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Calcs for Bronzor
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 14-17 (60.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Please feel free to criticize me if this is stupid.
While I agree with snivy staying at A, albeit for reasons I cannot properly convey rn so gonna have to withdraw that side for now, your post needs to be debunked a lot to be blunt, and sry if any of the text after this sentence offends you. To kick it off every knows snivy can hurt water types with its grass typing, knowledge of LCs intricacies etc do not apply to that, but LO snivy has to be the least common and arguably worst set it has. While it has more power than any other set it can't lend the defensive utility that eviolite or sub berry juice has, and therefore creates a teambuilding error in handling water types such as DD/(Maybe SD too?) corphish, its at its core a glass cannon that is too slow to put much work in unless you click glare every single turn. Possibly you were using it just to showcase damage potential so sorry if that was the case.Snivy to stay A
I do not play LC very much, but hear me out.
Snivy, from what i have seen is an excellent wallbreaker, with access to a STAB Leaf Storm to give it +2 Spatk, and it has the benefit of a speed raise from webs, it can be a monster to deal with. Although it has some good checks of Bulky Grass types, and certain check of Flying, Steel and Poison types, and the multitude of pokemon that resist grass in LC, Snivy can only deal with certain ones if the have the right Hidden Power. But, even with these, Snivy can hurt a lot of common pokemon in the tier. Snivy decimates any water types in the tier, such as Carvanah, Corphish, Omanyte, and Shellder to name a few.
But, with the types that check him, Bulky grass, flying, steel, and poison types, he falls to them, since they can counter his leaf storms. Certain pokemon such as Fletchling can revenge kill snivy, being faster, and having the upper hand when it comes to attacking, being able to have priority from gale wings. Bronzor has longevity from Recycle+Berry Juice and levitate. Bulky flying pokemon, most notably Vullaby, can survive Snivy's Leaf storm, and if your team is afraid of flying types, Snivy will run Hidden Power Rock to counter them, most bulky grass types don't need to fear snivy, unless it has HP fire and a boost, so Foongus and Ferroseed don't mind Snivy. Bronzor, though sitting at the top of D rank, is one of snivy's worst counters, since it resists its main stab, it isnt easily counter by HP Fire, and It forces snivy to use it's low attack stat to use Knock Off, if it even carries it.240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Corphish: 34-42 (170 - 210%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Carvanha: 57-70 (300 - 368.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 42-49 (210 - 245%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. -1 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 57-70 (285 - 350%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 196 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 34-42 (154.5 - 190.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 62-78 (295.2 - 371.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 83-109 (395.2 - 519%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 47-62 (213.6 - 281.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Although it seems snivy has more checks and counters than other wallbreakers, he can hurt a lot of pokemon, even his checks fall if he has the right moves yet certain pokemon *couch* bronzor *cough* hurt snivy profusely.
Although it seems snivy has more checks and counters than other wallbreakers, he can hurt a lot of pokemon, even his checks fall if he has the right moves yet certain pokemon *cough* bronzor *cough* hurt snivy profusely.Calcs for Ferroseed.
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 1-3 (4.5 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+4 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
+6 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-10 (40.9 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs For Foongus
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 3-4 (12 - 16%) -- possible 7HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 5-6 (20 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs for Foongus against Snivy:
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snivy: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Calcs For Vullaby
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 5-8 (20 - 32%) -- 20.6% chance to 4HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Rock vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Hidden Power Rock vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs for Vullaby against Snivy
0 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 26-32 (123.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Calcs for Bronzor
240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 240 SpA Life Orb Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 60 HP / 148+ SpD Bronzor: 14-17 (60.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Snivy Knock Off vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Bronzor: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Please feel free to criticize me if this is stupid.
To continue I'd like to mention bronzor is a very irrelevant pokemon, while I myself use it from time to time I have to admit it does not hold any weight in viability discussion, the meta is much too harsh on it (also doesn't do anything back to snivy than toxic recycle spam). Also on that paragraph leading up to the calcs, hp rock is rarely run or worth it due to dropping your speed down to 16 opposed to 17, which isn't worth it when Hp flying (which also does a lot to grass types/bugs (larvesta) and has great neutral coverage) or hp ground (Hurts fires and steels and can 2HKO foongus if its down to 80% and has been knocked off and switches in on leaf storm). HP fire is in the same boat as hp rock for the same issues though it is slightly.
Now onto the calcs vs threats:
- Ferroseed needs knock off and t-wave to effectively answer the common snivy sets, 16 speed LO frankly isn't worth it so you're aside from scarf the most threatened set.
- Foongus is a good switch in to every set but ones that carry hp fire/hp flying and aren't scarf/berry juice,
- Vullaby I already explained you just need to wear it down with SR/knock off support.
- Bronzor is bronzor, but where are you getting the +1 on the knock off calc o.o, honestly snivy prefers synth or glare over knock off (or sub if its berry juice).
Intimidate, if that is a possibility, +1 atk.
Bronzor is easily overwhelmed by repeated Leaf Storm hits. It isn't a counter in any sense of the word. There are many good counters to Snivy, and many awful ones too, but I don't think that should get in the way of Snivy moving up. It doesn't require a whole lot to go its way before it can utterly dissolve teams.
I think it really just requires too much support to be A+ for sweeping teams. You have to have pretty much all flying types gone (Archen you might be able to beat but it's really a speed tie), scarf mons that can KO it if it's weakened, Gastly gone, Abra gone, Ponyta gone, and whatever can take a few hits and you didn't cover with Hidden Power. There's no denying that Snivy is usually very effective but it's not as self sufficient as the A+ mons or as threatening in my opinion.
Look at the A+ mons. Fletchling dictates teambuilding and is one of the most effective sweepers and teambuilders. Diglett is one of the best support mons out there and of course can pick and choose what it kills. Abra stops almost every sweeper and is really hard to switch into (see: all of Shrug's arguments). Magnemite is very strong, has great coverage, and even provides really good momentum with a powerful Volt Switch. Timburr is just all around good in terms of bulk, has a very effective bulk up set, great coverage options, priority, ect. Snivy doesn't really seem to fit in.
Time to post in LC:
Carvahna should defninetly rise to A rank. It's really nice right now, especially Special Vahna, which nobody on the low-to-mid ladder prepares for it. Speed Boost is really good as it makes Vahna a wrecking ball that sweeps late-game super easily, sort of like Sharpedo in RU. It has really nice coverage and hits really hard too. Carvanha still has problems like priority shitting on it and it not killing some stuff unless it's weakened, but since it's used as a late-game sweeper, most of the stuff SHOULD be weakened anyways. overall, Vanha is very strong in the current meta and should rise.
I honestly don't know what to think about Snivy to A+, but I'm leaning towards it staying due to the reasons said above, like mons countering it for each Hidden Power it uses. it's a strong wallbreaker, yes, but it needs a bit too much support imo to be considered A+.
I think Elekid should stay in B, it has a lot of neat coverage moves and speed and power, but it's just SO frail and can't break through most specially defensive mons.
Vullaby is easily A+ rn as it's extremely splashable, has a wide variety of cool sets, and it even hits hard. Rise it!
Also probably gonna nominate Tyrunt for a rise soon but I don't wanna get the thread all cluttered up and I need to test it more.
Vullaby is easily A+ rn as it's extremely splashable, has a wide variety of cool sets, and it even hits hard. Rise it!
Also probably gonna nominate Tyrunt for a rise soon but I don't wanna get the thread all cluttered up and I need to test it more.
fuck you Mambo
Yes, Elekid is very frail, but that's why it's being considered for a move to B+, not A+. And even with that aside, its frailness is often a non-issue (aside from taking priority attacks, kind of an issue), as it has 20 Speed and Volt Switch. Those are a deadly pair of weapons to combine. And as for Specially Defensive foes, although they can absorb a hit, nothing in the tier aside from Chinchou and Goldeen likes switching into a Volt Switch.
since we're discussing moving stuff up to a+ i think its time to move pony up. yes it struggles with diglett, but thats honestly the only real thing holding it back (chou to a lesser extent). fast+wow is really good in such a phys oriented meta. and now that everyone is starting to realize that fc pony is the way to do dig cant reliably revenge pony. it also has a bunch of really cool 4th slot options other than fc (return for chou, wild charge for other waters, toxic/hypnosis to cripple shit). really good mon, should be a+ imo.
Saying that it's almost as splashable as foo is just false, foo fits on to 6/10 teams which is significantly more than porygon can claim.
Pory does it's job well, I'm not denying that, but putting it with pawniard and mienfoo is wrong.
Licki actually has some really cool things it can do, in Counter and SD plus the standard stall-y sets. Tahu was playing around with Licki on full stall recently and ran a set with bloody thunder punch to fully cover Fletchling / Oma / Shellder for example. However, Counter is kinda awful versus Scarf Foo or even just HJK Mienfoo. SD acts are decent lure too, but this makes Licki fail to do anything besides lure or provide a single time check to sweepers. Curse can theoretically work amazingly, but the only plausible reasons to run this over Munchlax is you're playing Missy meta or running Dragon Tail (which is bad). It's all really niche though not inherently bad always, which is why I've been a proponent of it falling down to C+.
I really enjoy Elekid, and it has some pretty great abilities to annoy offense and be okay/good versus bulkier teams. The largest issue I have with Elekid is how it has competition with Magnemite and Chinchou, due to both actually having bulk and thus the ability to beat Fletchling. Additionally the former has anywhere from 2-4 switch ins depending on coverage, while the other has access to utility options and very different coverage to make up for its weaker offensive pressure. Simply that alone means that during teambuilding, I'll often opt for Magnemite over Elekid as it can heavily pressure Spritzee/Lileep/Fletchling more so, while also possessing Analytic to pressure the few things which might switch into Electric types making Elekid's strengths rather inconsequential. Elekid certainly has a fair ability to fit onto solid teams, B+ might be a stretch solely on the principle of not having a potent enough niche, though this seems fairly subjective glancing at the B rank.
Vullaby hasn't really impressed me outside of surprise Scarf sets OHKOing lead Mienfoos, though it does have a solid niche on double bird teams. The largest issue with Vullaby I currently have is that Vullaby does not feel impactful to the same extend other A+ or potential A+ ranked pokemon do. This can be argued due to being support oriented, but the offensive set is what pushed Vullaby up to A. Granted this typically just Knock Offs or U turns on a Flying resist to cripple switch ins to Brave Bird or Acrobatics. Currently, Defog Vullaby just feels underwhelming due to playing sluggishly and being Pawniard bait--resulting in matchups versus Hazard Offenses being rather hard. Personally I cannot attest to precisely how effective Nasty Plot is currently, as it appears to be very counter team-y and really not outstanding in any particular way. Vullaby just doesn't function to the same caliber that Gastly/Magnemite/Ponyta/Abra/Diglett/Timburr do, though it does provide support for some scary pokemon and soften rather important defensive cores so A+ might not be wrong. On the other hand Snivy has a great impact on the game through Glare. But I've never had a brilliant success with Snivy due to being too weak/frail/slow to actually shred a well built team. I just feel that outside it relies too heavily on its team support to put in decent work (look at what km said) so A+ is truly a pipe dream.
Finally making this nomination as the reigning Treecko pundit:
Treecko is D rank currently, despite actually being a threatening sweeper that can generally tear apart offense with just Knock Off support, SR, and of course the removal of Fletchling. Treecko has the ability to completely avoid the OHKO from most neutral attacks provided hazards are off the field (it lives everything from 0 attack Mienfoo, Abra Psychic has a 1/16 roll to kill with rocks, non Poison Jab Drilbur, Spritzee, non Analytic boosted attack from Magnemite, Diglett, Itemed Archen, sets up on Staryu & Chinchou 70% of the time) while having recovery versus Pawniard to heal off Sucker Punches while resisting Aqua Jets giving it an actual, granted small, advantage over Drifloon. 26 Speed and Grass/Fighting/Flying coverage really makes playing around Treecko problematic, especially considering Unburden allows it to make weird plays such as switching into +2 Leaf Storms. It's not amazing by any means, but it can set up surprisingly frequently and can be stupidly powerful (Bullet Seed is a great move). It's certainly better than everything on the D rank list currently, and is better than all of C- sans maybe Deerling just in reliability and uniqueness.
Also I have not seen any opposition to Gastly in A+, thus speak now or forever hold your peace.
I really enjoy Elekid, and it has some pretty great abilities to annoy offense and be okay/good versus bulkier teams. The largest issue I have with Elekid is how it has competition with Magnemite and Chinchou, due to both actually having bulk and thus the ability to beat Fletchling. Additionally the former has anywhere from 2-4 switch ins depending on coverage, while the other has access to utility options and very different coverage to make up for its weaker offensive pressure. Simply that alone means that during teambuilding, I'll often opt for Magnemite over Elekid as it can heavily pressure Spritzee/Lileep/Fletchling more so, while also possessing Analytic to pressure the few things which might switch into Electric types making Elekid's strengths rather inconsequential. Elekid certainly has a fair ability to fit onto solid teams, B+ might be a stretch solely on the principle of not having a potent enough niche, though this seems fairly subjective glancing at the B rank.
Vullaby hasn't really impressed me outside of surprise Scarf sets OHKOing lead Mienfoos, though it does have a solid niche on double bird teams. The largest issue with Vullaby I currently have is that Vullaby does not feel impactful to the same extend other A+ or potential A+ ranked pokemon do. This can be argued due to being support oriented, but the offensive set is what pushed Vullaby up to A. Granted this typically just Knock Offs or U turns on a Flying resist to cripple switch ins to Brave Bird or Acrobatics. Currently, Defog Vullaby just feels underwhelming due to playing sluggishly and being Pawniard bait--resulting in matchups versus Hazard Offenses being rather hard. Personally I cannot attest to precisely how effective Nasty Plot is currently, as it appears to be very counter team-y and really not outstanding in any particular way. Vullaby just doesn't function to the same caliber that Gastly/Magnemite/Ponyta/Abra/Diglett/Timburr do, though it does provide support for some scary pokemon and soften rather important defensive cores so A+ might not be wrong. On the other hand Snivy has a great impact on the game through Glare. But I've never had a brilliant success with Snivy due to being too weak/frail/slow to actually shred a well built team. I just feel that outside it relies too heavily on its team support to put in decent work (look at what km said) so A+ is truly a pipe dream.
Finally making this nomination as the reigning Treecko pundit:
Treecko is D rank currently, despite actually being a threatening sweeper that can generally tear apart offense with just Knock Off support, SR, and of course the removal of Fletchling. Treecko has the ability to completely avoid the OHKO from most neutral attacks provided hazards are off the field (it lives everything from 0 attack Mienfoo, Abra Psychic has a 1/16 roll to kill with rocks, non Poison Jab Drilbur, Spritzee, non Analytic boosted attack from Magnemite, Diglett, Itemed Archen, sets up on Staryu & Chinchou 70% of the time) while having recovery versus Pawniard to heal off Sucker Punches while resisting Aqua Jets giving it an actual, granted small, advantage over Drifloon. 26 Speed and Grass/Fighting/Flying coverage really makes playing around Treecko problematic, especially considering Unburden allows it to make weird plays such as switching into +2 Leaf Storms. It's not amazing by any means, but it can set up surprisingly frequently and can be stupidly powerful (Bullet Seed is a great move). It's certainly better than everything on the D rank list currently, and is better than all of C- sans maybe Deerling just in reliability and uniqueness.
Also I have not seen any opposition to Gastly in A+, thus speak now or forever hold your peace.
Pory is insanely good right now. Offensive pory is a staple on any sort of offense because it has a ridiculous 27 spatk after a download boost and literally 2HKOs the entire meta. Any kind of bulky and fat team can use wall pory as an all around sponge and yellow magick supplier. Even on shit like webs you can use Life Orb Pory to do an insane amount of damage to anything (see OP). So yeah Pory is literally amazing at both checking things and being an extremely potent weapon and in my opinion is basically just as splashable as pawn and foo these days.
Yo this will probably be disagreed with but why is Pumpkaboo-super A-? I think its wholly comparable to Hippopotas as a less offensively inclined Pokemon that walls a few things but still manages to lose to a big portion of the tier. As it stands rn, Pumpkaboo gets bopped by any Knock off user, loses to hp flying snivy, Carvanha dicks it, Archen fletch and vullaby all demolish it, shellder and skrelp both kill it, and it still manages to not beat a huge portion of the tier. It's so easy to set up spikes on its ridiculous, since chespin and ferro both could give two shits about it. Its only real niche is being the best spinblocker, which in this crazy hyper offensive meta isn't really too much to brag about considering its infinitely harder for teams to set up full hazards against teams that just run like pawniard / corphish cores or some offensive shit like that. It's also nowhere near the level of viability as things like corphish, shellder, carvanha, cottonee, etc. I suggest moving it down to B+ or B