Ah okay! Thanks for making that clear! [:
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Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
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Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0
- Thread starter tazz
- Start date
Ah okay! Thanks for making that clear! [:
We are revamping this project in an effort to help newer players get into the tier, as this list is very outdated and does not reflect how the metagame has developed. Special thanks to Celestavian, Quote and Shrug for running this project while it was active. The new voters are myself, Fiend Corporal Levi and gali
The changes are as follows:
Rises:
Fletchling from A+ to S-
Abra from A to A+
Gastly from A to A+
Drilbur from A- to A
Snubbull from A- to A
Archen from A- to A
Ferroseed from A- to A
Staryu from A- to A
Larvesta from B- to B+
Trapinch from B to B+
Stunky from B- to B
Frillish from C to B-
Kabuto from UR to B-
Pineco from UR to C
Bulbasaur from UR to C
Drops
Diglett from S to S-
Porygon from S to S-
Shellder from A+ to A
Magnemite from A+ to A
Gothita from A+ to A-
Carvahna from A to A-
Croagunk from A- to B+
Omanyte from A- to B+
Scraggy from B+ to B
Munchlax from B+ to B-
Skrelp from B+ to B
Doduo from B to B-
Hippopotas from B to B-
Pancham from B to C
Riolu from B to C
Torchic from B to B-
Magby from B- to C
Shellos from B- to C
Tailow from B- to C
Slowpoke from B- to C
Wingull from B- to C
Deerling from B- to UR
Exeggcute from C to UR
Geodude from C to UR
Lickitung from C to UR
Thanks to Coconut for approving and helping these revamps go through, this is hopefully the first of a series of updated resources to help newer players learn LC oldgens. Feel free to post any suggestions!
The changes are as follows:
Rises:
Fletchling from A+ to S-
Abra from A to A+
Gastly from A to A+
Drilbur from A- to A
Snubbull from A- to A
Archen from A- to A
Ferroseed from A- to A
Staryu from A- to A
Larvesta from B- to B+
Trapinch from B to B+
Stunky from B- to B
Frillish from C to B-
Kabuto from UR to B-
Pineco from UR to C
Bulbasaur from UR to C
Drops
Diglett from S to S-
Porygon from S to S-
Shellder from A+ to A
Magnemite from A+ to A
Gothita from A+ to A-
Carvahna from A to A-
Croagunk from A- to B+
Omanyte from A- to B+
Scraggy from B+ to B
Munchlax from B+ to B-
Skrelp from B+ to B
Doduo from B to B-
Hippopotas from B to B-
Pancham from B to C
Riolu from B to C
Torchic from B to B-
Magby from B- to C
Shellos from B- to C
Tailow from B- to C
Slowpoke from B- to C
Wingull from B- to C
Deerling from B- to UR
Exeggcute from C to UR
Geodude from C to UR
Lickitung from C to UR
Thanks to Coconut for approving and helping these revamps go through, this is hopefully the first of a series of updated resources to help newer players learn LC oldgens. Feel free to post any suggestions!
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Taking the time to congratulate on the revamp I slightly disagree on some points like Relegating Omastar and promoting Fletch and Drilburr, but the revamp is not that different from what I would've done myself, a ton of people just thinks gothita is broken or ban worthy which isnot true cause you give up a ton to use gothita, just as an example
i hope we can keep this updated
Some post LCWC shifts:
Shellder from A to A-
Ponyta from A to A-
Zigzagoon from B- to B
Carvahna from A- to B+
Be sure to check out the replay thread and sign up for the upcoming ORAS tournament within the LC classic!
Shellder from A to A-
Ponyta from A to A-
Zigzagoon from B- to B
Carvahna from A- to B+
Be sure to check out the replay thread and sign up for the upcoming ORAS tournament within the LC classic!
Considering how the metagame been evolving I would like to make a couple nominations
RISES
Snivy to A + :With the rise of webs ( to the surprise of No one ever), Snivy became so mainstream that even HO builds been adopting snivy, also there are not many drawback of using it, glare subs set is amazing and makes so much work on its own, it even prevents webs from doing its job, thats why good players are literally spamming it all over the place
Surskit to A-: Web is a metashaping structure and all of this would be impossible without surskit, Surskit has 17 speed and it basically unleashes the whole strategy( where are all the spinarak webs), it is so spammable that every single non Main is spamming it and getting results all over the ORAS Circuit( just take a fast look in LCPL replays thread and even some of the LCWC replays
Webs are broken and keeping Surskit in B+ is not acknowledging the power of said structure( Mister Brazilian Army being arguing on its brokeness since 2014, dude knows his stuff)
Abra to S : Arguably the strongest mon when webs are Up, So powerfull and so brainless, this bro can do everything and it has so much viables sets, Magic Coat seems cheesy but it gets incredible results and keep web players honest( also a very cool tool on HO teams) Shed Shell Makes it a very good tech against trap based checks( which basically means the most reliable way BO teams can deal with Abra is rather useless against cheesy sets) and Choice Scarf Abra which basically outspeeds everything, Abra can fit any team structure as easy as the likes of Fletch, Porygon and Digglet and in my personal oppinion is literally top 3 alongside Mienfoo and Pawniard.
Aipom
to A-: 19 speed is too good to pass on, faster fake out than mienfoo, antilead surskit, very useful on non webs-HO structures and good in enough in BO, Aipom ofc has many problems, the movepool could've been better ofc, but it makes so many matchup automatically better to its trainer to a point it is way easier to bring into a game than most of the stuff in A-
Onix
to A-: Onix has 17 speed, which ties with half the meta and even the Weak Armor set to better check Birdspam as a virtue, and is very easy to bring in games, can be used as a HO Explosion lead and also ties with surskit( which makes it the best rock type to antilead vs Surskit considering this matchup is very uncomfortable for the webs user, Onix is definetilly more consistent than a ton of the stuff in A-
DROPS:
Shellder
to B+: Shell Smash sweepers are not the force they once were, i dont even remember the last time i brought a shellder to a game, most structures are naturally prepared against it and it is too speed reliant to be considered good providing very little utility apart from sweeping, basically it fails to do what it is supposed to do most of the time( and the rise of things like Scarf Abra makes it even more difficult. Also you always need to pick between Ice shard/protect/hp fighting as they to completely different things.
Cottonee
to B+: Considering the structures this thing thrives are being pushed away from the metagame and considering the competition it faces as the Grass type in a team( and being considerable harder to bring than the likes of Snivy and Foongus) i can see it still being useful on some matchups and it is overall not a bad mon, but it is just so annoying when most of its checks and competitors are that dominant
Spritzee
to A-: Spritzee is definetilly way more passive than snubull, they are not on the same level and with so much foongus around, its becoming harder and harder to enjoy its large movepool( Covet, Skillswap, aromatherapy...) I always feel compeled to bring Psychic of Bring it alongside Goth( a broken mon on itself) it still pretty useful but it is worse than snubbul as a fighting check and way less consistent than pretty much everyone in A
Ferroseed
to A-: The meta outpaced ferroseed in many ways, the things it is good at are not useful in many games considering you dont have the time to just bring spikes in most games as the pace is becoming too fast with all this webs being used, HP fire foongus is everywhere so seed cant really check foongus and is not even close to as good as Vull and Goth as checks to Foongus, all things considering seed is becoming less and less reliable in the things it is supposed to be good at.
RISES
Webs are broken and keeping Surskit in B+ is not acknowledging the power of said structure( Mister Brazilian Army being arguing on its brokeness since 2014, dude knows his stuff)
Aipom
to A-: 19 speed is too good to pass on, faster fake out than mienfoo, antilead surskit, very useful on non webs-HO structures and good in enough in BO, Aipom ofc has many problems, the movepool could've been better ofc, but it makes so many matchup automatically better to its trainer to a point it is way easier to bring into a game than most of the stuff in A-
Onix
to A-: Onix has 17 speed, which ties with half the meta and even the Weak Armor set to better check Birdspam as a virtue, and is very easy to bring in games, can be used as a HO Explosion lead and also ties with surskit( which makes it the best rock type to antilead vs Surskit considering this matchup is very uncomfortable for the webs user, Onix is definetilly more consistent than a ton of the stuff in A-
DROPS:
Shellder
to B+: Shell Smash sweepers are not the force they once were, i dont even remember the last time i brought a shellder to a game, most structures are naturally prepared against it and it is too speed reliant to be considered good providing very little utility apart from sweeping, basically it fails to do what it is supposed to do most of the time( and the rise of things like Scarf Abra makes it even more difficult. Also you always need to pick between Ice shard/protect/hp fighting as they to completely different things.
Cottonee
to B+: Considering the structures this thing thrives are being pushed away from the metagame and considering the competition it faces as the Grass type in a team( and being considerable harder to bring than the likes of Snivy and Foongus) i can see it still being useful on some matchups and it is overall not a bad mon, but it is just so annoying when most of its checks and competitors are that dominant
Spritzee
to A-: Spritzee is definetilly way more passive than snubull, they are not on the same level and with so much foongus around, its becoming harder and harder to enjoy its large movepool( Covet, Skillswap, aromatherapy...) I always feel compeled to bring Psychic of Bring it alongside Goth( a broken mon on itself) it still pretty useful but it is worse than snubbul as a fighting check and way less consistent than pretty much everyone in A
Ferroseed
to A-: The meta outpaced ferroseed in many ways, the things it is good at are not useful in many games considering you dont have the time to just bring spikes in most games as the pace is becoming too fast with all this webs being used, HP fire foongus is everywhere so seed cant really check foongus and is not even close to as good as Vull and Goth as checks to Foongus, all things considering seed is becoming less and less reliable in the things it is supposed to be good at.
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Honedge
Honestly I'm surprised that Honedge isn't on the list. I'm not a pro or anything but personally I think it is very offensively threatening and also has good bulk to back it up.
This set is really good as it lets Honedge set up an SD for free and then sweep with shadow sneak and/or sacred sword
Honestly I'm surprised that Honedge isn't on the list. I'm not a pro or anything but personally I think it is very offensively threatening and also has good bulk to back it up.
Code:
Honedge @ Berry Juice
Ability: No Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords DanceThis set is really good as it lets Honedge set up an SD for free and then sweep with shadow sneak and/or sacred sword
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Hello Roofus happy to have new people interested in this meta and yes Honedge should be listed as a niche pick 110%, Honedge is very good in pursuiting abra while threating gastly with a shadow sneak, and checks porygon and non Overheat Fletch well enough to be a worthy pick
honestly i dont really enjoy the SD set cause there isnot that much opportunity to setup and a lot of the things that it used to take advantage of arent that popular anymore but i really love the Pursuit > SD
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Since this functions as a metagame discussion thread i want to ask, why does Flail display as illegal on Fletchling saying that the move cannot be transferred from SV to ORAS if it was an actual set in XY?
It was inaccurately allowed on PS for a (very fun) time. Fletchling cannot use Flail in XY LC and PS has been updated to fix that oversight.
More accurately, it is Endure that Fletchling did not actually have access to in XY LC. While it still does have Flail, Endure was an integral part of the set's viability so FlailFletch has fallen into obscurity.
We have completely reconfigured the rankings this time, for three main reasons
- S- rank was unsightly
- certain ranks were overcrowded and confusing
- the gap between B+ and the rest of B was too great. B+ mons were incredibly common in tournaments while B- mons were barely viable and almost never seen
To fix these problems we have moved down most of the viability ranking, getting rid of S- and bumping many mons out of A. This does not reflect a fall in their viability from last year (when this list was last edited). I believe the new list is more easily understandable and more reflective of the meta. ORAS LC has more viable pokemon than any other LC meta, so I am sure that we have one or two oversights here. If you catch one let me know!
Thanks to Corporal Levi Fiend gali LilyAC for their rankings.
- S- rank was unsightly
- certain ranks were overcrowded and confusing
- the gap between B+ and the rest of B was too great. B+ mons were incredibly common in tournaments while B- mons were barely viable and almost never seen
To fix these problems we have moved down most of the viability ranking, getting rid of S- and bumping many mons out of A. This does not reflect a fall in their viability from last year (when this list was last edited). I believe the new list is more easily understandable and more reflective of the meta. ORAS LC has more viable pokemon than any other LC meta, so I am sure that we have one or two oversights here. If you catch one let me know!
Thanks to Corporal Levi Fiend gali LilyAC for their rankings.
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I would like to nominate Bunnelby to B- its a superior web sweeper to Cranidos and a decent scarf that is very hard to check as it is considerable superior to Nidos and Daru in doing its job so it is at least B- maybe even B
Honedge to C+ if not B - Honedge has a similar job to the likes of Croagunk which is of a mon that glues and condense check
Honedge has pursuit and is a decent checker to Fletch dig that cant get trap while trapping no Shadow Ball Abra
Diglett -> S rank
It’s disingenuous to have this mon lower than S. this mon is by far the biggest constraint to teambuilding in this tier and invalidates many mons/strats just by existing… ie your bird checks must be dig-proof, your fighting resists must be dig-proof, etc etc.
just enough options to be unexpected… wanna trap cotton/snub? LO sludge. Need SR? he’s got u. Pursuit support? Look no further. U must honestly ask urself why ur not usin diglett (or the next mon below) anytime u play this tier.
goth -> A
a more consistent trapper than diglett, but more more specialized as well. Scarf, evio 3 atks, evio rest are all amazing and u must consider this mon in ur building. Like dig, it has enough flexibility to enable all types of strats, but is more easily punished. A cornerstone of the tier and should be reflected in the rankings. (Oh ur using spritz/foongus to check foo? Nice bro.)
Archen = Onix
Rank these in the same tier since they’re basically the same mon. Archen is a fletch check that’s harder to remove via dig, but is harder to manuever with and honestly not very sturdy. However is a pretty decent offensive threat. Onix, on the other hand, is fat, fast, and probably the most reliable non-pawn sr user. Weak armor evio and BJ sturdy (with or without endure) are both equally viable. Ground type is nice to discourage scarf mag and scare pawn as well… both can discourage hazards (defog + power from archen, taunt from onix). I’d suggest A- for both
omanyte to A-/B+
It’s the best shell smash sweeper, and weak armor hazards is deceptively solid. Again, just enough versatility to be hard to play around. Smash sweepers stock is low atm, but this one at least threatens foo, pawn, and foongus p well.
croagunk is better than B-
Croagunk is step above most mons in B-. Yeah, it’s weak to diglett and goth. But it’s also extremely good role compression. Tough to naturally switch in against. A lynchpin on webs teams as a gluemon. Suggest either low B for it, or move pumpkaboo-S from B- with gunk at the top
wingull to B rank
hot take but this bird is really solid. 19 speed tier is great, can easily fit on birdspam with scald / cane / knock / sub @ juice. Knocks pory, chips pawn, naturally threatens fighters. Can threaten archen/onix. Just a neat mon. Unexplored mainly.
my thoughts for now.
It’s disingenuous to have this mon lower than S. this mon is by far the biggest constraint to teambuilding in this tier and invalidates many mons/strats just by existing… ie your bird checks must be dig-proof, your fighting resists must be dig-proof, etc etc.
just enough options to be unexpected… wanna trap cotton/snub? LO sludge. Need SR? he’s got u. Pursuit support? Look no further. U must honestly ask urself why ur not usin diglett (or the next mon below) anytime u play this tier.
goth -> A
a more consistent trapper than diglett, but more more specialized as well. Scarf, evio 3 atks, evio rest are all amazing and u must consider this mon in ur building. Like dig, it has enough flexibility to enable all types of strats, but is more easily punished. A cornerstone of the tier and should be reflected in the rankings. (Oh ur using spritz/foongus to check foo? Nice bro.)
Archen = Onix
Rank these in the same tier since they’re basically the same mon. Archen is a fletch check that’s harder to remove via dig, but is harder to manuever with and honestly not very sturdy. However is a pretty decent offensive threat. Onix, on the other hand, is fat, fast, and probably the most reliable non-pawn sr user. Weak armor evio and BJ sturdy (with or without endure) are both equally viable. Ground type is nice to discourage scarf mag and scare pawn as well… both can discourage hazards (defog + power from archen, taunt from onix). I’d suggest A- for both
omanyte to A-/B+
It’s the best shell smash sweeper, and weak armor hazards is deceptively solid. Again, just enough versatility to be hard to play around. Smash sweepers stock is low atm, but this one at least threatens foo, pawn, and foongus p well.
croagunk is better than B-
Croagunk is step above most mons in B-. Yeah, it’s weak to diglett and goth. But it’s also extremely good role compression. Tough to naturally switch in against. A lynchpin on webs teams as a gluemon. Suggest either low B for it, or move pumpkaboo-S from B- with gunk at the top
wingull to B rank
hot take but this bird is really solid. 19 speed tier is great, can easily fit on birdspam with scald / cane / knock / sub @ juice. Knocks pory, chips pawn, naturally threatens fighters. Can threaten archen/onix. Just a neat mon. Unexplored mainly.
my thoughts for now.
Good catches, these should be in there and were accidentally deleted while formatting. Added both.
Really excited to see you post zf, please play oras in lcpl it would be really great to have you. I'll give my thoughts on your noms, though obviously I'm speaking for myself and not the council.
I definitely agree that Diglett is hugely influential to teambuilding and incredibly versatile, but when comparing it to the other S rank pokemon I still think it does not quite meet the incredible splashability of Pawniard and Mienfoo. Pawniard and Mienfoo are so dominant in their niches that they edge out other steel and fighting types on a solid majority of teams, and are often run in addition to Pokemon with similar niches just because they are so good. While diglett is certainly widespread, it is not quite as ubiquitous as the mons of the S rank tier, who improve just about every team they are on. Diglett still has some competition for its teamslot: there are a whole lot of mons and playstyles that you have to check in ORAS, and teamslots are at an absolute premium. Diglett is going to do a lot for you offensively, but it will leave you with defensive holes and some weaknesses to key matchups (mostly webs) that have to be fixed. Obviously it justifies this easily on a lot of teams, but it's not the mindless add that the S ranks are for most teams.
I think you may also be sleeping on some of the A+ ranks here too: Diglett's parnter-in-crime Fletchling arguably has a similar level of influence, if not more. Virtually mandating 2 resists on every single team certainly rises to the level of constraint that Diglett poses in the builder. Porygon and Abra are a bit less metagame-defining than fletchdig, but fit in the same rank for their abilities to improve most teams with little support.
Finally, I know that usage stats are not the same thing as viability, but I think they're worth looking at for their demonstration of splashability. This is LCPL:
And LCWC:
Diglett is obviously the top of the A+ pack, but the usage drop demonstrates the splashability gap well.
I waver on this one: Gothita is definitely a nightmare in the builder, but I hesitate to raise its ranking because it is just as difficult to bring as it is to face. It can single-handedly win matchups like no other Pokemon if you nail the correct set (this is most true of the evio rest sets), but it also has tons of matchups were it is simply not good. Hyper offense in particular is such a difficult matchup for Gothita that I am always hesistant to actually load it; Most Goth teams tend to do excellently against balance but get run over by teams that don't care as much about the surgical removal of a team member.
I probably can't even disagree on this one as Gothita's case is very borderline. I will bring it up when we vote again in a few months.
I think the first three probably reflect the biases of the rankers. I know a lot of people use Onix more than Archen (mostly Heysup) to great success. I definitely separate the two a lot more than you, as Onix is not quite as solid against fletchdig (it can still be trapped by evio, balloon, sash and scarf variations of Diglett) and is not in the same league when it comes to offensive presence. It makes up for this with its incredibly reliable abiilty to set up rocks, a valuable niche that lands it on offensively oriented teams most of the time. Bulky teams are a bit more popular at the moment, which is likely why most of the rankers put it so low.
As I see it, Omanyte is in a similar boat to Gothita. It definitely nails more matchups than the other smashers, but I am extremely hesitant to bring it because if your opponent loads the wrong team it can end up not doing much. Cottonee and Sash Abra in particular are common and match up very well against teams dedicated to Omanyte. Even teams with less stops can just add taunt to Fletchling and status to other setup fodder if they're worried an opponent might bring it. I value consistency enormously, so I might have been overly unkind to the smashers.
ORAS seems to be divided between Croagunk believers and Croagunk haters, and it seems that the rankers happen to be the latter. It absolutely earns its spot on offensive teams that need a lot of role compression, but those aren't so popular at the moment. Maybe you can prove their worth later this year?
As for the B rank stuff, there's a ton of subjectivity there: once you get into the niche stuff everyone is going to have radically different takes. I am certain that with controversial Pokemon like Croagunk/Larvesta/Carvahna there is a lot of disagreement, as people are basically ranking how much they would be willing to use something as an out-of-the-box pick. I would never bring shellos and ranked it C for example, but the other rankers seem to think it is a solid counterteam pick. I wish I could give you more justification (well, I could, but I don't think it would be very convincing), but there it is.
Please join LCPL I will add all of these noms if you win with them.
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I've been playing ORAS LC every time i could get the chance to since last LCWC and it just grown in me making it my most liked LC gen (in pair with DPgood but that's not why i'm here lol). I was checking the VR the other day and i thought, damn either i think very different than the rest or this is very outdated so here i am to make some noms.
This is a visual on how i feel the VR should be rn.
It's pretty obvius that it changes quite a bit compared to what the VR it's rn so instead of going 1 by 1 speaking about every change i'm just going to widely speak about how i feel about the metagame. But before getting into it let me dissert what i understand from each rank:
S Rank: Amazing pokemon, can fit into almost every team and will do a great job in them. They require to be considerede in both builder and in game otherwise they can go out of hand. (Fletch would rise from A+ to S).
S- Rank: I know this rank doesn't currently exist but i just can't help it but to feel that all the pokemons i placed there are a step above A+ in some way be it being stronger, having a wider range of use/utility or just simply being harder to check. But despite this jump from A+ are not on the level of the S rank. (Abra and Diglett would rise from A+ to S- while Vullaby would go from A to S-).
A+ Rank: Really strong pokemon that enable so many team to function greatly. Or are very powerful but can't fit into as many teams. (Gastly would rise from A to A+, Gothita and Chinchou from A- to A+, Surskit from B+ to A+ and then Tirtouga from B to A+).
A Rank: Great pokemon that can be replaced but are strong when used both offensively and defensively. Have a large amount of possible uses and can sometimes win. (Magnemite from A- to A, Snubbull from B+ to A and Tyrunt from C to A).
A- Rank: Very good pokemon that are usually used as checks/counters of some of the higher tiered mons but can still pull wins. (Onix, Ponyta, Drilbur and Cottonee from B+ to A-, Vulpix and Aipom from B to A- and Rufflet from C+ to A-).
B+ Rank: Powerful yet not much spammable, you usually really want to use them or else you would want something else form higher tiers over them. Still solid mons that can function well. They are also mons that define well some archetypes but since those archetypes aren't from the big 3 (para spam, bird spam and webs) they aren't as high. (Ferroseed from A- to B+, Bellsprout from B to B+, Dwebble from B- to B+, Shellder and Trapinch from B to B+ and Cranidos and Scraggy from C+ to B+).
B Rank: Good mons that have their matchups. They can sometimes be hit or miss but when they hit they HIT. (Clamperl, Munchlax and Doduo from C+ to B, Spritzee from B+ to B, Carvanha from B- to B, Taillow from C to B).
B- Rank: Generally not horrible but still have a wide range of variety for them to be able to be used. They need to have some help from something of other teammates to work better. But it's something to account. (Pineco, Kabuto and Amaura from C+ to B-, Magby from C to B-, Larvesta from B to B-, Stunky and Trubbish from UR to B-).
C Rank: Average mons that are rarely worth using but it's still above the trash mons that i would never use and are ofc not listed at all. They can see some great times where you can win with them or make them shine if you get the appropiate matchup.
I promise i will add reasoning behind noms at some point but i am already writing for so long and it's so exhausting doing one of these. Feel free to ask for any specific mon tho if i didn't do any specifications about the noms by then.
This is a visual on how i feel the VR should be rn.
S Rank: Amazing pokemon, can fit into almost every team and will do a great job in them. They require to be considerede in both builder and in game otherwise they can go out of hand. (Fletch would rise from A+ to S).
S- Rank: I know this rank doesn't currently exist but i just can't help it but to feel that all the pokemons i placed there are a step above A+ in some way be it being stronger, having a wider range of use/utility or just simply being harder to check. But despite this jump from A+ are not on the level of the S rank. (Abra and Diglett would rise from A+ to S- while Vullaby would go from A to S-).
A+ Rank: Really strong pokemon that enable so many team to function greatly. Or are very powerful but can't fit into as many teams. (Gastly would rise from A to A+, Gothita and Chinchou from A- to A+, Surskit from B+ to A+ and then Tirtouga from B to A+).
A Rank: Great pokemon that can be replaced but are strong when used both offensively and defensively. Have a large amount of possible uses and can sometimes win. (Magnemite from A- to A, Snubbull from B+ to A and Tyrunt from C to A).
A- Rank: Very good pokemon that are usually used as checks/counters of some of the higher tiered mons but can still pull wins. (Onix, Ponyta, Drilbur and Cottonee from B+ to A-, Vulpix and Aipom from B to A- and Rufflet from C+ to A-).
B+ Rank: Powerful yet not much spammable, you usually really want to use them or else you would want something else form higher tiers over them. Still solid mons that can function well. They are also mons that define well some archetypes but since those archetypes aren't from the big 3 (para spam, bird spam and webs) they aren't as high. (Ferroseed from A- to B+, Bellsprout from B to B+, Dwebble from B- to B+, Shellder and Trapinch from B to B+ and Cranidos and Scraggy from C+ to B+).
B Rank: Good mons that have their matchups. They can sometimes be hit or miss but when they hit they HIT. (Clamperl, Munchlax and Doduo from C+ to B, Spritzee from B+ to B, Carvanha from B- to B, Taillow from C to B).
B- Rank: Generally not horrible but still have a wide range of variety for them to be able to be used. They need to have some help from something of other teammates to work better. But it's something to account. (Pineco, Kabuto and Amaura from C+ to B-, Magby from C to B-, Larvesta from B to B-, Stunky and Trubbish from UR to B-).
C Rank: Average mons that are rarely worth using but it's still above the trash mons that i would never use and are ofc not listed at all. They can see some great times where you can win with them or make them shine if you get the appropiate matchup.
I promise i will add reasoning behind noms at some point but i am already writing for so long and it's so exhausting doing one of these. Feel free to ask for any specific mon tho if i didn't do any specifications about the noms by then.
A handful of things worth mentioning, part related to the VR
For starters the mon I would like to see their rankings of changed:
Stunky from unranked to C+
Stunky got removed from the VR in spite of being a common face on Memento teams and limited but unique value as a hard Ghost/Psychic answer. I would find it hard for anyone to try and learn this dying meta if a Memento team would be passed to them and they notice it's not even listed on the VR. Knowing its pairing with the likes of Tirtouga, Diglett, Cottonee, and Zigzagoon; it would make sense for it itself to be ranked C+ reflecting its considerable use on a Zigzagoon (ranking wise) defined team/playstyle.
Snubbull from B+ to A mid
If you played or watched any recent ORAS included tours like LPL 9 and LCPL XII this shouldn't come as a surprise.
The only hard Fighting-type switch-ins you could play on a majority of teams and expect to switch into Mienfoo on turn 2, are Snubbull and Foongus. Unlike Spritzee/Cottonee, Snubbull provides counterplay to a wide list of threats with key pieces being Mienfoo, Archen, Vullaby; while not being at risk of dying to a U-turn into a trapper unlike Foongus and Onix;
Spritzee and Cottonee's offensive capacity are borderline horrible, while Snubbull's offensive capacity can only be replicated by pokemon A and above.
Even itsonly counter: Foongus, can have its item stolen either by its Thief/Knock support from Mienfoo for Fire Punch to 2HKO; or in case of 18 Atk Evio it can 2HKO with Stealth Rock dmg regardless of Foongus' Eviolite.
Besides the now preferable Fire Punch it can instead opt for Earthquake to get past the declining number of Ponyta's whilst still hitting Pawniard / Magnemite / Onix; or opt for Close Combat to OHKO Pawniard, threaten Ferro/Magnemite, Onix, Porygon, and more at cost of being notably easier to revenge kill. Because of the number of overlap this slot has, it more often than not gets to be tailored based on the team's needs rather than suffering 4MSS like Spritzee and Cottonee.
Almost all of which is done with just 16 Atk Juice; Play Rough, <coverage>, Thief, Thunder Wave. Last of which is a safe middle ground play with close to no downside if the opposing team does not have exactly Foongus or Fat Porygon. It's hard to stress just how capable its momentum regain is when all moves it can opt to go for are an issue; while countering mons intended on forcefully progressing the game state.
This concludes the only changes I would like to see barring a discourse on the placement for Gothita to be either A or A-.
Now for things not 1:1 related to the VR: Resources for players trying to learn ORAS LC
This place is one of, if not the first, place a player will look for that. Some take it on themselves to ask a tour player for insight and/or teams.
At some point a serious decision needs to be made on one of 2 choices for the other resources. These include but aren't limited to: Roles compendium, the SmogDex set analyses, and the Set viability ranking:
Accept their time capsuled state OR a serious effort has to be made to streamline them and lose the insight of a meta long forgotten.
The choice for this is in no rush but will at some point be chosen and will dictate the future of ORAS LC as a meta.
Both above-mentioned forum threads haven't had a post or update since 2016 whereas the SmogDex is a 1:1 time capsule for the metagame respective to their writing, commonly mentioning Pokemon like Trubbish, Skrelp and others that simply do not see any usage anymore.
Either simplifiy and update sets, without writing (to modern standard) and thereby throwing away the writing of the autor and stories they told.
I linked the Chinchou dex analysis as an example I wanted to dissect. The primary set in current meta would be Berry Juice but its recommended EV spread borders absurdity when you know its modern benchmarks of interest: 15 Spa to 2HKO Foongus with Ice Beam post Stealth Rock, 17 Speed to outspeed 16 speeds and tie 17's, and 12 Def bordering the defensive calcs of relevancy. It can't do all 3 at once and as a result could be 2 separate sets in spite of serving a very similar purpose. LilyAC even mentioned the oddity of Scarf Chinchou; Chinchou's first mentioned set, as being uncertain on its viability in general.
Almost all of these analyses are so distant off what they once tried to do, that it may as well not exist anymore as a resource.
For starters the mon I would like to see their rankings of changed:
Stunky got removed from the VR in spite of being a common face on Memento teams and limited but unique value as a hard Ghost/Psychic answer. I would find it hard for anyone to try and learn this dying meta if a Memento team would be passed to them and they notice it's not even listed on the VR. Knowing its pairing with the likes of Tirtouga, Diglett, Cottonee, and Zigzagoon; it would make sense for it itself to be ranked C+ reflecting its considerable use on a Zigzagoon (ranking wise) defined team/playstyle.
Snubbull from B+ to A midIf you played or watched any recent ORAS included tours like LPL 9 and LCPL XII this shouldn't come as a surprise.
The only hard Fighting-type switch-ins you could play on a majority of teams and expect to switch into Mienfoo on turn 2, are Snubbull and Foongus. Unlike Spritzee/Cottonee, Snubbull provides counterplay to a wide list of threats with key pieces being Mienfoo, Archen, Vullaby; while not being at risk of dying to a U-turn into a trapper unlike Foongus and Onix;
Spritzee and Cottonee's offensive capacity are borderline horrible, while Snubbull's offensive capacity can only be replicated by pokemon A and above.
Even its
Besides the now preferable Fire Punch it can instead opt for Earthquake to get past the declining number of Ponyta's whilst still hitting Pawniard / Magnemite / Onix; or opt for Close Combat to OHKO Pawniard, threaten Ferro/Magnemite, Onix, Porygon, and more at cost of being notably easier to revenge kill. Because of the number of overlap this slot has, it more often than not gets to be tailored based on the team's needs rather than suffering 4MSS like Spritzee and Cottonee.
Almost all of which is done with just 16 Atk Juice; Play Rough, <coverage>, Thief, Thunder Wave. Last of which is a safe middle ground play with close to no downside if the opposing team does not have exactly Foongus or Fat Porygon. It's hard to stress just how capable its momentum regain is when all moves it can opt to go for are an issue; while countering mons intended on forcefully progressing the game state.
This concludes the only changes I would like to see barring a discourse on the placement for Gothita to be either A or A-.
Now for things not 1:1 related to the VR: Resources for players trying to learn ORAS LC
This place is one of, if not the first, place a player will look for that. Some take it on themselves to ask a tour player for insight and/or teams.
At some point a serious decision needs to be made on one of 2 choices for the other resources. These include but aren't limited to: Roles compendium, the SmogDex set analyses, and the Set viability ranking:
Accept their time capsuled state OR a serious effort has to be made to streamline them and lose the insight of a meta long forgotten.
The choice for this is in no rush but will at some point be chosen and will dictate the future of ORAS LC as a meta.
Both above-mentioned forum threads haven't had a post or update since 2016 whereas the SmogDex is a 1:1 time capsule for the metagame respective to their writing, commonly mentioning Pokemon like Trubbish, Skrelp and others that simply do not see any usage anymore.
Either simplifiy and update sets, without writing (to modern standard) and thereby throwing away the writing of the autor and stories they told.
I linked the Chinchou dex analysis as an example I wanted to dissect. The primary set in current meta would be Berry Juice but its recommended EV spread borders absurdity when you know its modern benchmarks of interest: 15 Spa to 2HKO Foongus with Ice Beam post Stealth Rock, 17 Speed to outspeed 16 speeds and tie 17's, and 12 Def bordering the defensive calcs of relevancy. It can't do all 3 at once and as a result could be 2 separate sets in spite of serving a very similar purpose. LilyAC even mentioned the oddity of Scarf Chinchou; Chinchou's first mentioned set, as being uncertain on its viability in general.
Almost all of these analyses are so distant off what they once tried to do, that it may as well not exist anymore as a resource.
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