Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
While other anti-leads like aipom and meowth can do this a bit better, glameow has the niche of killing mienfoo and does not deserve to be unranked.
116 Atk Life Orb Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 20-25 (95.2 - 119%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

I just want to point out that Aipom fulfills that niche, a better example of what Glameow can do that Aipom usually can't is 2HKO Vullaby, since Aipom has to rely on Fury Swipes rolls after using Knock Off.

However Aipom in general is much better, and even Meowth can put more pressure on the opponent with special attacks due to technician.

At best this should get Totodile treatment and go to D.
 
If you don't mind me asking, what got Totodile into D rank? I'd assume it's due to the fact that things like Carvanha/Shellder acquire the same sweep and are more viable, or something along the lines of that.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
If you don't mind me asking, what got Totodile into D rank? I'd assume it's due to the fact that things like Carvanha/Shellder acquire the same sweep and are more viable, or something along the lines of that.
Corphish actually, since it's got Adaptability which means it has either more power (and comparable bulk) or better bulk (and even then more power in many cases) it generally can do Totodile's job better than the mon itself. Totodile's main thing is that it has Ice Punch to let it get past grasses more easily than Corphish, but otherwise Corphish is just flat out better.
 
Gothita to A+

Since I came back, I've been playing around with CM goth, and it is scary good. While Choice Scarf Gothita and Diglett typically are used to take out more offensive threats, CM Goth can remove key defensive mons like Porygon, Spritzee, and Foongus with incredible efficiency. Once these mons are on the field, Gothita can hard switch into them and remove them with little-to-no effort. It can remove a larger pool of Pokemon like Skrelp and ponyta if given a switchin with U-Turn or Volt Switch. The sheer amount of support that it provides definitely puts it very nearly on par with Diglett and a much better pokemon than A-.
 
porygon -> A+
meta is too fast paced. no longer walls entire teams or

gastly -> A
lol this pokemon is slow and sucks

foongus -> A+
best fighting check but doesn't check omanyte ;-;

skrelp -> B+
gastly but weak to trappers and even slower

cottonee -> A
the best offesnive check to everything; it is #1

snubbull: A-
its cottonee except it doesnt check smashers or waters

corphish -> B+
strong wallbreaker with minimal defensive utility. still ose to stuff

Shellder -> A+
best sweeper. there are only 2 checks and it can beat them.

Onix -> B+
rocks+vs immune+bird reist.

Gothita -> A
traps everything.

archen: A-
overrated bad bird check that has cool movepool

dweeble: B
onix is better because youll never keep 2 layers.

Riolu: B+
hjk is strong, better than scraggy. #1 offensive fighter

stay golden lc forusm
 
porygon -> A+
meta is too fast paced. no longer walls entire teams or

gastly -> A
lol this pokemon is slow and sucks

foongus -> A+
best fighting check but doesn't check omanyte ;-;

skrelp -> B+
gastly but weak to trappers and even slower

cottonee -> A
the best offesnive check to everything; it is #1

snubbull: A-
its cottonee except it doesnt check smashers or waters

corphish -> B+
strong wallbreaker with minimal defensive utility. still ose to stuff

Shellder -> A+
best sweeper. there are only 2 checks and it can beat them.

Onix -> B+
rocks+vs immune+bird reist.

Gothita -> A
traps everything.

archen: A-
overrated bad bird check that has cool movepool

dweeble: B
onix is better because youll never keep 2 layers.

Riolu: B+
hjk is strong, better than scraggy. #1 offensive fighter

stay golden lc forusm
Porygon is a very spam able pokemon for allot of teams with utility that no other pokemon can provide it being for Wallbreaking with Download for Bulky Offense or Trace + Volt-Turn to prevent losing to Diglett quickly. For the argument that Porygon is a pokemon people need to prepare for rater then just be spam able: Porygon is in a metagame where fight types are dominant and Rock/steel types are necessary. It just happens Porygon with Download can 2HKO anything based on coverage and the few it misses out on it could run a rare HP coverage for like HP Fire/Fight for Ferroseed/Pawn. The most Rock types are purely reliant of there sturdy to survive except if they resist all the attacks like Onix. Pokemon like Omanyte/Tirtouga who do have better Special Defense to take on the standard coverage can be hindered by Thunder Wave or the <slightly more common but still not common> Thunderbolt. The Trace set can make one of the easiest blank walls in the metagame even for stuff it's not ment to check.
I can only see Porygon have more reason to be used on Defensive teams(Yes, the fact more people use offensive doesn't mean they stop using defensive teams altogether) because of that utility it being for Volt-Turn or Bulky offense.

Snub/Cottonee:
Snubbull while it is getting allot of critique for being prone to be worn down or lured into. Snub has nothing to do with cottonee except fairy type...
it can provide a stand up Tank/Wall(For more then just Fight) for allot of pokemon will also providing Anti-Knock Off support/Heal bell respectively. It has near optimal coverage with just 2 moves to prevent any pokemon from coming in except Foongus(Any Grass/Poison type) /Ferroseed/Larvesta other stuff like Ponyta could provide utility against it by burning but the fact it can 2HKO/Paralyze Ponyta while also having potential Heal bell support for himself seems a reasonable trade off. I have also seen more Lure Subbulls with Fire Punch as utility to provide in beating Ferroseed/2HKO Foongus. Something Cottonee can't come close to with limited coverage options and forcement to run an offensive lure set to purely kill Pawniard. Giving it enough reason to stay A mid.
I still think pokemon like Cottonee (I did also put Croagunk and Tirtouga in the same group) are ''between B+ and A-''. There importance makes me question as to why it/they aren't simply A-.

Foongus/Onix do need to move up. I think an earlier discussion suggests the same.

Stuff like Skrelp I did only drop because of how it's limited by Diglett/Goth(for goth depending on the situation as usual). This being that it needs support from Speed control teams like T-wave Spam/Tailwind to not be prone to Trappers.
I will skip on Dwebble as I simply don't use it enough compaired to the other pokemon to argue for it.
Agree on everything else.
 
porygon -> A+
meta is too fast paced. no longer walls entire teams or

gastly -> A
lol this pokemon is slow and sucks

foongus -> A+
best fighting check but doesn't check omanyte ;-;

skrelp -> B+
gastly but weak to trappers and even slower

cottonee -> A
the best offesnive check to everything; it is #1

snubbull: A-
its cottonee except it doesnt check smashers or waters

corphish -> B+
strong wallbreaker with minimal defensive utility. still ose to stuff

Shellder -> A+
best sweeper. there are only 2 checks and it can beat them.

Onix -> B+
rocks+vs immune+bird reist.

Gothita -> A
traps everything.

archen: A-
overrated bad bird check that has cool movepool

dweeble: B
onix is better because youll never keep 2 layers.

Riolu: B+
hjk is strong, better than scraggy. #1 offensive fighter

stay golden lc forusm
Ok, I disagree with your statements on Ghastly. In my experience, Ghastly is a valuable scarf Pokémon and is one of the better scarf Pokémon in the metagame. I have used it for a week or two on ladder, and it is a niche set but can be very instrumental to victories if played well. It isn't that matchup reliant either, because of its coverage and speed when scarfed; however it does lose to scarf Abra and a non weakened scarf Magnemite, so those are pretty significant drawbacks to be fair. Scarf Mienfoo can be an issue as well, but honestly if I am running Ghastly at all I have at least 2 Mienfoo checks anyway as that isn't exactly a matchup I would like to throw my Ghastly into, for obvious reasons such as the omnipresent Knock Off. It should not move down in the viability rankings, as it can still perform to its current ranking if used by a competent player. That said, it is one of the harder "common" mons to use effectively due to its few common weaknesses, and takes support and proper endgame planning to truly reach its full potential. Also, Fletch kind of bones scarf Ghastly, or any Ghastly, so that is also something to take into account.
 
Last edited:
Elekid to B+

Elekid has quite a few things going for it. First of all, it outspeeds (or speed ties) the whole unboosted meta. Second of all, it has a pretty decent special attack stat and even a fair attack stat too. It also has a good offensive typing in Electric and good coverage in Psychic and HP for a Special set and Cross Chop for a Physical set. It can also get off a Volt Switch in a bad matchup. It might not be able to take hits, but Elekid is still a good Pokemon.
 
I think that shromish, should have better rank than D-, from my point of view it deserve rank B.
The reason are:

Resist really well ground type, ranks s threats like digglet, mienfoo, pawniard click spore, and then other big threats like sash abra, timburr corphish, carvanha.

although he haven´t got regenerator, his abillity effect spore, sometimes change battles with he 30% of para, sleep or poison.

Resist an accrobatics of flectching to then click spore.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I think that shromish, should have better rank than D-, from my point of view it deserve rank B.
The reason are:

Resist really well ground type, ranks s threats like digglet, mienfoo, pawniard click spore, and then other big threats like sash abra, timburr corphish, carvanha.

although he haven´t got regenerator, his abillity effect spore, sometimes change battles with he 30% of para, sleep or poison.

Resist an accrobatics of flectching to then click spore.
While not having a poison typing provides a few advantages for grass types such as a ground resistance instead of neutrality and no psychic weakness, the fighting resistance and poison neutrality are fairly useful. For Shroomish in particular, you're never going to have a conversation where it's not being compared to Foongus.

While Foongus has more issues with Diglett and Abra, it takes on fighting types significantly better due to its resistance to fighting and neutrality (as opposed to weakness) to U-turn, and can continuously switch into these threats due to Regenerator. It also has spore, and - bar Bullet Seed - better offensive pressure due to Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain. It can also survive a Fletchling Acrobatics, just like Shroomish, and unlike Shroomish it doesn't lose nearly half its HP from a U-turn if Fletchling decides to run a damage calc.

Shroomish, meanwhile, attempts to be an inferior Foongus, hitting people who don't know that it learns Drain Punch in the Pawniard and having a slightly stronger (still fairly weak) Bullet Seed to hit things with. Shroomish needs to give up turns to use Synthesis due to its lack of passive recovery and neutrality to so many threats while Foongus can recover simply by switching out again, as well as boasting a fourth moveslot to do multiple things with - run Stun Spore to help out the team, Clear Smog to mess with setup, Hidden Power to be less weak to Pawniard and other steels, or even Synthesis itself.

Effect Spore is inconsistent and gimmicky at best, while poisoning the Mienfoo that just did 43% with U-turn to you might help you take it down later in the match it's generally not very effective. It also messes with using Spore which is the main point of Shroomish.

Most importantly however, is that if the opposing team has a Foongus or a Vullaby, Shroomish will be doing basically nothing for the entire match, since both of them can repeatedly switch in on Shroomish with basically 0 issues.

Overall it's debatable that Shroomish is even worthy of D-rank in my opinion, and it certainly doesn't deserve B rank.
 
Drilbur: A -> A-

Drilbur is pretty bad right now. Let's look at how much of "the relevant meta" it loses to, assuming it's the standard support set (36 HP, 236 Atk, 212 Speed Jolly Eviolite with Earthquake, Rapid Spin, Rock Slide, and Stealth Rock):

S RANK

Diglett - HARD CHECK
Mienfoo - SOFT CHECK
Pawniard - SOFT CHECK
Porygon - NOT A CHECK

A+ RANK

Abra - NOT A CHECK
Fletchling - SOFT CHECK
Gastly - SOFT CHECK
Magnemite - SOFT CHECK
Timburr - NOT A CHECK

A RANK

Archen - HARD CHECK
Carvanha - NOT A CHECK
Chinchou - SOFT CHECK
Drilbur - SOFT CHECK
Foongus - NOT A CHECK
Ponyta - SOFT CHECK
Shellder - NOT A CHECK
Snivy - NOT A CHECK
Snubbull - SOFT CHECK
Spritzee - NOT A CHECK
Vullaby - SOFT CHECK

A- RANK

Corphish - NOT A CHECK
Croagunk - COUNTER
Ferroseed - SOFT CHECK
Gothita - HARD CHECK
Omanyte - NOT A CHECK
Skrelp - NOT A CHECK
Staryu - NOT A CHECK
Tirtouga - SOFT CHECK

SOFT CHECK to 12/28 Pokemon (43%)
NOT A CHECK to 12/28 Pokemon (43%)
HARD CHECK to 3/28 Pokemon (11%)
COUNTER to 1/28 Pokemon (4%)

For definitions please see my post in my checks compendium thread.

It should be noted that many of the cases where Drilbur is a soft check are similar to the following:

Tirtouga (Sturdy Berry Juice) vs. Drilbur

Drilbur LOSES if Tirtouga uses Shell Smash (it is OHKOed the following turn)
Drilbur LOSES if Tirtouga uses Waterfall (it is OHKOed or 2HKOed - at which point Aqua Jet KOes)
Drilbur LOSES if Tirtouga uses Aqua Jet (it is 2HKOed)
Drilbur WINS if Tirtouga uses Stone Edge (it is 4HKOed and is not put into range to be KOed by Aqua Jet)

where it should be noted that 1) Drilbur only wins if Tirtouga is this specific set and 2) Drilbur only wins if Tirtouga clicks one of four moves.

All things considered, Drilbur does not deserve A Rank, where Pokemon that are currently much better (Foongus, Shellder, Snivy, etc.) reside. It deserves A- Rank at best.
 

Fiend

perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Leader
Ended up with the OP so I can force through changes myself now. Also added Shrug to the council to make up for other's inactivity.

List of updates:
Shellder: A+
Gothita: A
Gastly: A
Archen: A-
Cottonee: A-
Drilbur: A-
Snubbull: A-
Skrelp: B+
Onix: B+
Glameow: D
Discussion points:

Porygon S -> A+
Zero discussion for something rather large. Giving it more time.​

Corphish A- -> B+
Lots of people wanted it in A-, and hardly anything was said about this nom. Giving it more time.​

Riolu B -> B+
Personally not sure about and should be discussed. Giving it more time.
Dwebble B+ -> B
No consensus, yet. Let's try to get somewhere with this or the council will.​
 
i can tell you boys have just been WAITING for my comments on the slate posted just above me, so here goes:<br />
<br />
Porygon: the metagame seems to have settled back around TraceGon after a brief infatuation with Download, but both abilities (and the numerous sets that use each) remain highly viable + good in the current lc climate. The sheer variety is p amazing - you have agility stuff, regular download + coverage, bulky defensive, scarf, even specs - and all p viable in certain contexts. i feel like this leads to a sense that porygon doesnt have a "niche" in the way other mons do, but im unsure if this works for or against it - mienfoo's niche is "switches in to nearly everything and gains momentum with the three most useful techs (powerful fighting attacks, knock off, and u-turn) in lc plus a fourth move of some sort" which is rather broad indeed. pawniard has a more defined one, but "most powerful attacker that also fills a huge niche in 'defensive steel' and also rocking" is still wide open. in this way it seems more like an S-mon, but there are differences, mainly the efficiency with which the other s-mons accomplish their goals: mienfoo can come in and pull some shit like 40 times (approx) per game, and while pawniard cant do it as often, there are really minimal things that can withstand the team-bending pressure of Pawn say 4 times per game. for this reason you need to actively work to dissuade pawniard from coming in or else you're in some serious shit. Porygon, by contrast, can be dealt with more passively - say, a scald burn or sludge bomb poision that requires you to recover because even oif you're taking 29% from an attack, rocks are 12.5 and status is 12.5 and suddenly ur nintendo ds is showing a yellow bar for your porygon or whatever, so you need to recover, then the other guy is bringing in his fighting type named HIII-YAAAA or some shit, and you're going to have to find a switch in again, on and on until you say fuck it and fire off an attack and suddenly ur in the RED HEALTH ZONE with minimal recovery prospects, and now scarfchou sweeping seems like a possibility and this is Bad. that might be overly luck-based but it does seem to happen with disturbing frequency. this is not to say that porygon isnt rlly effective in the current meta, but you need to manouver it into position and kinda massage battle conditions for it to be turn-by-turn devastating, and this is isnt quite the standard set by foo and pawn. add in the fact it doesnt have a ton for the vougish cm gothita and i think A+ is fine for this pokemon, the top of it (the rank).

Corphish: this mon thumps. crabhammer hits really hard, we should start with, and aqua jet is mad nice priority. throw in knock off and a boosting or coverage move and u have a recipe for a good mon, although one with flaws: low speed, some weird bulk that isnt great, crabhammers propensity to miss at every possible opportunity in the endgame. it's often in a weird spot where ur taking an attack and giving one back and idk it just feels weird. this doesnt discount what it does well though, that being slamming things. it's strong enough to make would be checks - snivy, cott - wary of switching in, and it really thrives in a trapping metagame, not fearing dig or goth much while receiving much help from them. it's a weird mon to fit on teams, but thats kinda what A- is - whens the last time you tossed a snubbull on a squad? ferroseed? etc. it should stay A- imo.

Riolu: ive not used this can some riolu boys explain it to me

Dwebble: as an honest and fair Viability council rankings member, i must admit bias here: i rlly like dwebble for non-objective reasons, mainly that double switching gets my dick rock fucking hard, and dwebble allows me to do that to actually gain an advantage rather than just to stunt on dudes while acting smug in chat. semi-jokes aside, spikes are really good in this meta: spikes + speed is base-level pokemons and a strat that gets better as bulky waters / steels play increasing vital roles on teams, which is the case now - what checks shellder? For this reason, dwebble will always remain in some sense "important" as the best (only?) offensive spiker and thus relevant enough to keep in a position of semi-prominence. this is discounting dwebble's other uses and Secret Techniques, namely knock off and counter but also (sometimes, and i personally believe this is shit, but do what u will) shell smash. overall im pretty certain it should still be B+, carries teams tbh
 

Conni

katharsis

Spritzee

A ---> A-

Spritzee, as I've noticed is getting walled and checked by many Pokemon right now in the metagame, like I know that Defensive Spritzee works well and checks
many Pokemon but I think that maybe it's getting less used in terms of the number of Pokemon that can deal with it easier than it can deal with Pokemon it can check, such as Magnemite which can easily wall Spritzee with Flash Cannon and Gastly and Foongus can both wipe it out with Sludge Bomb. There are just too much Pokemon that check Spritzee in LC as of now and I do really think that it's getting less viable by the weeks, since a lot of people commonly run Pokemon that are a big threat to Spritzee which leads it to be checked as soon as it gets into battle, since let's admit it; a lot of people run Magnemite, Gastly and Foongus (etc.). There may be more reasons why but I just wanted the LC council to keep this in consideration.
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator

Abra: A+ -> A

A year ago, LO Abra was destroying balance cores left and right. Sashbra was one of the most mindlessly splashable Pokemon for offensive builds because of its effectiveness against other frail teams, especially those built around a single sweeper. It was almost impossible to distinguish the two sets at first glance despite their vastly different strengths, which made it even more annoying to deal with. Abra was one of the most defining Pokemon of LC.

This is no longer the case for three reasons:




Abra hates trappers. Diglett easily revenge-kills LO Abra and brings Sashbra down to its sash, rendering it unable to check what it needs to. Beat Up variants take it further and eliminate Sashbra from play entirely, provided the Diglett user has enough Pokemon left. Gothita has been gaining popularity again, as it can usually get the KO it needs to, even if it is promptly revenge-killed by Diglett. Scarfed Gothita can switch into standard Psychic/HP Fighting/Dazzling Gleam/Energy Ball Abra's Psychic and 2HKO it about two thirds of the time; even if Gothita isn't successful, Abra will be hard-pressed to check anything with 1 HP. Calm Mind Gothita is even worse, as it renders standard Abra variants a liability by using them as set-up bait. Shadow Ball and Knock Off variants of Abra can beat Gothita on the switch but cannot prevent the revenge-kill. Trapinch is much rarer than Diglett or Gothita, but is able to trap non-Energy Ball Abra handily, with Berry Juice Trapinch being able to switch in safely as well. Eviolite Trapinch can revenge-kill all variants of Abra.

In addition, Sashbra simply isn't the catch-all check it used to be. Sweepers it had a good match-up against, such as Timburr and Bellsprout, aren't as popular as they used to be. Instead, Shellder has firmly established itself as one of the best sweepers in the metagame, if not the best; this has led to Berry Juice Magnemite, Sashbra's main competition as a safety net, seeing a resurgence. Heysup's SPL week 1 team has made Aipom more popular than ever at high levels of play. Croagunk runs Sucker Punch more frequently than before. Although much lower down on the threatlist, Nasty Plot Vullaby is also seeing more use.

Abra continues to be very potent on the right teams, but splashability is no longer its strongest trait. It can still effectively function as a safety net or wall-breaker, but needs to be paired with significant support against trappers and checks to specific wincons if it is to pull its weight throughout the match.




Vullaby: A -> A+

I feel that Fletchling has improved now that it no longer has competition as LC's premier sweeping bird, but when it comes to best overall LC Flying-type, Vullaby takes the cake. The physical offensive set in particular is extremely difficult to switch into, yet itself finds plenty of opportunities to get into play.

Vullaby thrives on the current metagame trends. Not only does it have fantastic synergy with Diglett and Trapinch, it immediately puts opponents using trappers on the back foot whenever it comes in on Diglett or Gothita, almost guaranteeing that something will be crippled. Dark spam is incredibly strong at the moment, and Vullaby is basically mandatory for those. In addition, the popularity of fish spam indirectly benefits Vullaby. Cottonee becoming the dominant Fairy-type over Spritzee and Snubbull means less teams have Pokemon that can switch into Vullaby safely. Archen has seen a decrease in usage. Snivy is just another Pokemon that Vullaby checks. Most importantly, Vullaby is one of the few viable hard checks to Foongus, and the only one that can put significant pressure on a variety of switch-ins instead of letting Foongus just activate Regenerator for free.

On top of the offensive set's sheer effectiveness, Vullaby is deceptively versatile. Offensive Vullaby's moveset may be fairly static, but its EV spread and even item can be adjusted to suit the team's needs, as well as grab a few surprise KOs. The ubiquity of offensive variants means that Defog is not always expected anymore (although Pawniard might switch in anyways if you don't have Diglett); it helps that with the prominence of Water-types to shut down Archen, Vullaby is now arguably the tier's best Defog user. Nasty Plot Vullaby's set of coverage moves actually matches quite well against popular threats, and it takes advantage of Vullaby's usual switch-ins as well.

Vullaby has Download Porygon's ridiculous 1v1ing capabilities, Pawniard's "how do I switch into this more than once" factor, and can even act as a solid pivot, though not quite on the level of Mienfoo. Its weaknesses to common Pokemon are minimal, and the drawbacks to using it are nonexistent. I would not be opposed to seeing Vullaby in S.




Cottonee: A- -> A

Normally I'm not a fan of Pokemon that lose momentum against so many important threats, but the variety of Pokemon that Cottonee is able to check and the amount of support it offers for its sweeper teammates often makes it tough to pass up. Carvanha, Corphish, and Shell Smashers are some of the top sweepers right now that Cottonee can mitigate for most of the battle. If they're on Cottonee's team instead, then Cottonee can Knock Off key defensive Pokemon that often switch into it, and provide Memento support to ease setup. Offensive Cottonee is probably its best set right now because it soft checks Pawniard instead of the other way around.

I think that even though they have completely different niches, it might be helpful to compare Cottonee to Chinchou in viability. Both of them check important groups of Pokemon, but are somewhat hindered by U-turn + Diglett combinations. Chinchou gains momentum for its own team with Volt Switch, whereas Cottonee tries to decrease the opponent's momentum with Encore, Stun Spore, and Memento. Cottonee helps sweeper teammates with Knock Off and Memento, whereas Chinchou can attempt to act as a win condition late game with a Scarf or Agility set. These comparisons aren't entirely accurate - for example, Chinchou's Volt Switch is arguably better for momentum than a somewhat predictable Encore, but Cottonee isn't as vulnerable to trappers - but it serves to show how both can be described about equally well as very splashable but not entirely consistent supportive Pokemon.

---

Disagreeing with Porygon dropping because I don't see how it's gotten worse. Trace Porygon was never supposed to wall all six Pokemon on the opposing team, but it can still reliably and repeatedly check almost any one or two Pokemon, allowing plenty of flexibility for the rest of the team. Download Porygon may not be able to permanently cripple switch-ins the way Pawniard can, but is arguably just as, if not more difficult to switch into due to its higher damage with Download, greater coverage moves, and fewer checks. Neither set requires any support at all to perform its role, although Agility Porygon certainly appreciates it. Porygon does lose to Calm Mind Gothita, but Gothita carries its own set of disadvantages in being almost useless against teams that do not have one of the specific Pokemon that CM Gothita traps. To make up for it, certain metagame trends have favoured Porygon instead; for example, Trace Porygon's niche as one of two consistent Shellder counters that has reliable recovery, alongside Slowpoke, is more important than ever. Porygon is also able to countertrap Diglett and avoid being trapped by Magnet Pull Magnemite, two common teammates for Shellder.
I personally don't feel that Porygon is any worse than other S ranks, but if you do, it may also be worth considering whether Porygon is closer to the bottom of S or the top of A+.

Agreeing with Spritzee, as I don't think it makes sense for Spritzee to be ranked higher than Snubbull. Spritzee is to balance what Snubbull is to offense; where Spritzee has greater survivability and can support balance cores, Snubbull is harder to switch into and can support offensive teammates. On the other hand, Cottonee fits into both archetypes well because its unique typing and disruptive movepool allow it to check a greater variety of threats. Spritzee and Snubbull, while still very good, aren't as splashable, and are normally only worth using when you need an especially resilient Fighting-type check or a cleric.
 

Fiend

perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Leader
dropped spritzee & abra.

kept pory, dweb, riolu, & phish the same.

raised vulla & cott.

proposing a movement of taillow down and slowpoke up, as taillow is inconsistent but potent. but its inconstant ability to perform, due to match up + competition + low OHKO potential. it's been awhile since taillow has been considered meta, and its been even longer since its been used seriously outside as a half assed floon check. there is almost no reason to use it as normal as an offensive type as 12994 options and there are like 4 other bird that do taillow's bit better. plus it needs a decent amount of support regardless of its set. however it is a better balance breaker than fletch and lives longer than doduo so it isn't totally balls. still just hard to use and not worth using pretty damn often. it'd be upper b-, about where amaura is imo, but it fits better there than in mid b.

on the other hand, poke is the best smash insurance. it does get fucked by cm goth, but it has a lot of chances for crits or timely paras or other stuff. it's also a hard mon to ohko so its never a bad mon in a game, unless vs vulla+pawn or pawn+gastly or houndour+gastly or stuff. but nothing that likes to deal with slowpoke likes to switch in, and this makes it fairly constant with a noteworthy niche and a generally decent mon. it does get mauled by voltturn and such but you can make some cool stuff like poke offense that works as poke handles most sweepers that hurt offense a bunch ie smashers + ponyta (counting as set up bc flame charge) + mixed sd fletch + somewhat timburr. it's a cool mon that should be used a bit more and given more value over all. still not the best though but it fits in with the rest of mid b very well.

cheers.
 

Conni

katharsis

A ---> A-

I feel like Snivy is starting to get outdated and getting checked by more and more Pokemon as time goes by, it's frail Defense makes it prone to nearly every good offensive Pokemon and I feel like it doesn't have good coverage moves excluding Hidden Power to deal with it's checks. Snivy is getting outclassed by Bulky Itemless Fletchling nearly every encounter since it can definitely tank a Hidden Power Ice but even before Snivy can use it, Fletchling has priority on Acrobatics and can easily sweep Snivy unless it switches out. Other bulky Pokemon or Pokemon with Berry Juice can also take on Snivy easily due to it's frail defense and having to be super reliant on Hidden Power, I feel like Magnemite also outclasses it as it can certainly tank a Hidden Power Ground/Fire and that it can use Flash Cannon to take it out easily, Vullaby also works as a defensive set can take Snivy out easily as well. I just think that Snivy's burdens are that it has such delicate defenses and that it's movepool coverage isn't very good compared to the other Pokemon of it's viability ranking, although it's ability is good, I feel like defensive Pokemon can still tank it and take it out after or Pokemon that outspeed it can just take it out in one swoop, so I think that Snivy deserves a drop.
 

Star

is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a defending SPL Championis the defending ADV Circuit Champion
Moderator

A ---> A-

I feel like Snivy is starting to get outdated and getting checked by more and more Pokemon as time goes by, it's frail Defense makes it prone to nearly every good offensive Pokemon and I feel like it doesn't have good coverage moves excluding Hidden Power to deal with it's checks. Snivy is getting outclassed by Bulky Itemless Fletchling nearly every encounter since it can definitely tank a Hidden Power Ice but even before Snivy can use it, Fletchling has priority on Acrobatics and can easily sweep Snivy unless it switches out. Other bulky Pokemon or Pokemon with Berry Juice can also take on Snivy easily due to it's frail defense and having to be super reliant on Hidden Power, I feel like Magnemite also outclasses it as it can certainly tank a Hidden Power Ground/Fire and that it can use Flash Cannon to take it out easily, Vullaby also works as a defensive set can take Snivy out easily as well. I just think that Snivy's burdens are that it has such delicate defenses and that it's movepool coverage isn't very good compared to the other Pokemon of it's viability ranking, although it's ability is good, I feel like defensive Pokemon can still tank it and take it out after or Pokemon that outspeed it can just take it out in one swoop, so I think that Snivy deserves a drop.
Ok you clearly have no idea what outclass means. Outclass means some pkmn does a job better than some other pkmn trying to do the same job. (i.e. Foongus outclasses bulbasaur). Every Pokémon has things that can ohko them. Fletchling kills mienfoo after rocks why don't we drop that too. Snivy is A because it's near impossible to switch into and has a an extremely strong spammable move that makes it stronger. Access to moves like glare, knock, synth and hidden power of choice make it scary as fuck to play. Just because it dies to a couple super effective hits doesn't make it worthy of a drop
 

Nineage

Pugnacious.
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I also want to point out that Snivy is one of, if not the best offensive Ground-checks that we have in the meta. While it definitely is hurt by its lack of coverage and is checked by some key Pokemon as Starm mentioned, Snivy is able to do its job, which is check certain Pokemon and provide increasingly difficult to switch-into attacks, better than anything else. Snivy is still the best Pokemon at its role, and is definitely worthy of A rank.
 
Contrary to the post 3 posts above me:


A to A+

After using this for a bit I don't think I can live without it. It's one of the best Ground checks in the current tier, and one of the best Water checks too. One of Snivy's biggest selling points IMO is that it can blow by its checks in a similar fashion to Clefable in OU. Think about it. A lot of its checks hate getting paralyzed, it has a good recovery move, and unlike Clefable it can boost while attacking at the same time. It's extremely hard to switch into Snivy not only due to Glare, but even if it hits a Pokemon that resists Grass with Leaf Storm then you're still dead (most of the time anyway) because then it can take Foongus out with HP Fire or Fire types with HP Ground. Also a lot of its checks can be trapped by Diglett.
 
Contrary to the post 3 posts above me:


A to A+

After using this for a bit I don't think I can live without it. It's one of the best Ground checks in the current tier, and one of the best Water checks too. One of Snivy's biggest selling points IMO is that it can blow by its checks in a similar fashion to Clefable in OU. Think about it. A lot of its checks hate getting paralyzed, it has a good recovery move, and unlike Clefable it can boost while attacking at the same time. It's extremely hard to switch into Snivy not only due to Glare, but even if it hits a Pokemon that resists Grass with Leaf Storm then you're still dead (most of the time anyway) because then it can take Foongus out with HP Fire or Fire types with HP Ground. Also a lot of its checks can be trapped by Diglett.
I heavily disagree with this, as Snivy is easily beaten by what check its coverage move doesn't cover. For example, a Snivy running Hidden Power Ice or Rock can't touch a Ferroseed, which can neuter it with a Thunder Wave, while a Snivy running Hidden Power Fire can be checked by Ponyta or Larvesta which can both hit it with powerful Fire-type STAB. You may be thinking that Snivy can weaken all of these mons with a Glare, which is true, but that is a small price to pay to stop such a threat in its tracks. That is also why I believe Snivy should still be A rank and shouldn't move down, as crippling potential checks to other threats on Snivy's team. In my opinion, Snivy is one of the best placed mons on the viability rankings, and shouldn't be moving anytime soon.
 

Muscle K

Banned deucer.
Contrary to the post 3 posts above me:


A to A+

After using this for a bit I don't think I can live without it. It's one of the best Ground checks in the current tier, and one of the best Water checks too. One of Snivy's biggest selling points IMO is that it can blow by its checks in a similar fashion to Clefable in OU. Think about it. A lot of its checks hate getting paralyzed, it has a good recovery move, and unlike Clefable it can boost while attacking at the same time. It's extremely hard to switch into Snivy not only due to Glare, but even if it hits a Pokemon that resists Grass with Leaf Storm then you're still dead (most of the time anyway) because then it can take Foongus out with HP Fire or Fire types with HP Ground. Also a lot of its checks can be trapped by Diglett.
I'm not too sure what the majority of the community thinks of Snivy, but I disagree.
Snivy, unlike it's big brother Serperior doesn't get access to Dragon Pulse, an decent move at best (for non- dragon types) but provides decent coverage.
However, like Serperior, it relies on Hidden Power for type coverage due to it's shallow movepool, and quite frankly, it's not good enough.
As many mons in LC can easily check and counter Snivy (for example, Ferroseed, Larvesta, Ponyta, Honedge, etc.) it easily.
While it is true that it is a good ground and water type check, most carry coverage that can ko snivy easily, eg, Staryu's Ice Beam, Shellder's Icicle Crash, Phanphy's Knock Off, etc.
Now since H0W3AN has explained the basics, there's no need to greatly expand on what he said, but I will explain Snivy's usage of Knock Off.
With Knock Off, Snivy can cripple certain mon by removing its item, and have the chance to cripple the other mon before setting up leaf storms, as knock off snivy usually don't carry glare.
The conbination of Glare/Knock Off + Leaf Storm is a good method for KOing many mons, and although it's a small price to pay, it can easily accomplish its role as a wallbreaker, and deserves to stay in the A Rank.


(Sorry if this was bad)
 

Vileman

Work is never over
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the defending ORAS Circuit Champion
Moderator
I'd like to nominate Doduo to B+ rank
Although its used mostly on birdspam teams, its pretty darn good at what its supposed to: luring bird answers via knock off(archen, chinchou), hp fight(pawniard) or straight up hitting so hard with life orb brave bird that the walls get broken(porygon, ferroseed, spritzee, etc). I dont think theres any mon not 2hkoed by the set that i assume as standard (life orb w/ brave bird hp fight knock off and quick attack(which btw does like 50 to scarf chinchou lmao)) so its definitely opening up the path to other sweepers,like fletchling, to clean up later thanks to its sheer power, good coverage and very good speed tier.
Kacaw
 
I nominate Lileep
for B+.

Lileep has extremely good defenses (being able to "outbulk" Vullaby with 77 and 87 base defenses, and 66 hp (Which reaches the same number as Vullaby's base 70). Allthough it's typing makes it weak to the ever so common fighting types, and also a weakness to steel, it makes up for that with Storm Drain, granting it an immunity and a well appriciated Sp.atk boost from water type moves, as well as resistance to Electric. Lileep's resistances aren't the important issue, besides making it THE best Chinchou counter in the tier, as well as makes it able to counter other common water types (even those with ice beam if they are running a bulky set) such as Staryu, Tirtouga and Slowpoke (Not as common as the others but still a threat imo).

It's grass typing also grants it immunity to Spore, and the less common Stun Spore, making it one of the safest switch-ins to Foongus and Cottonee.

Lileep has a wide movepool, which most notably includes Stealth Rocks, Recover, Giga Drain, Earth Power, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Rock Slide and Seed Bomb. It can also utilize moves like Mirror Coat, Curse, Stockpile, Swords Dance and Rock Polish with success ( 067jox did a video on the latter 2 options, check it out if you will, video at the bottom).

With said moves and stats, it can safely switch in on big threats in this metagame like Chinchou, Staryu, Tirtouga, Spritzee, Porygon, Foongus, Cottonee, Abra, Carvanha, Ponyta, Archen, Drilbur and Snubbull, as well as many B+ and below pokemons.

It can also threaten out each of these pokemons with a move, besides Foongus, which is where Mirror Coat can be a useful option, allthough not reccommended.

With moves like Earth Power and STAB Giga Drain, it can also hit common switch-ins hard, such as STAB Giga on everything not resisting, or Earth Power on Pawniard and Magnemite.

Most notable sets:


Pixar (Lileep) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Storm Drain
Level: 5
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Earth Power / Sludge Bomb / Ancient Power
- Stealth Rock / Ancient Power / Sludge Bomb

For 26 hp / 16 defense / 18 sp.def

or a spread of:
EVs: 228 HP / 220 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature

for 26 / 18 / 16

or
EVs: 228 HP / 28 SpA / 220 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature

For 26 / 8 / 14 / 13 / 19 / 9

I will base my calcs on the two premier sets, showing calcs from each poke on each variant of the 16/18 spread. Some of the lower damage calcs will make no difference between the 2 sets, hence there will only be 1 calc listed on the sp.def variant.

0 SpA Staryu Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 8-10 (30.7 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%)
200 SpA Staryu Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 14-18 (70 - 90%)
If Staryu runs an offensive LO set then it is still a threat sadly, which means there will be some predicting involved:
200 SpA Life Orb Staryu Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staryu: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%)

0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)

0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 4-6 (15.3 - 23%)
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)

0 SpA Lileep Earth Power vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 5-6 (20 - 24%)
Mirror Coat seems like the better option here, unless:
0 SpA Lileep Hidden Power (Fire) vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 6-8 (24 - 32%)

0 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 2-3 (7.6 - 11.5%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 12-14 (48 - 56%)
232+ SpA Choice Scarf Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Choice Scarf Chinchou: 18-24 (75 - 100%)

212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)
212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD sturdy Tirtouga: 20-20 (95.2 - 95.2%)
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 16-21 (61.5 - 80.7%)
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 15-18 (57.6 - 69.2%)


12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 7-9 (26.9 - 34.6%)
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)

0 SpA Lileep Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 10-12 (37 - 44.4%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 6-7 (22.2 - 25.9%)

0 SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 6-7 (23 - 26.9%)
These are rather sad imo, as Lileep have to bank on Pory not having Ice Beam to pose a threat, and threaten out with a Toxic. Ice Beam isn't the most common move on Porygon tho, so here are the next best calcs:
0 SpA Porygon Psychic vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 5-6 (19.2 - 23%)

0 SpA Cottonee Dazzling Gleam vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 4-6 (15.3 - 23%)

0 SpA Lileep Sludge Bomb vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Cottonee: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%)

240 SpA Abra Hidden Power (Fighting) vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
240 SpA Abra Hidden Power (Fighting) vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 8-10 (30.7 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 9-12 (47.3 - 63.1%)
If rare LO:
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Hidden Power (Fighting) vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%)

196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Ice Fang vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%)
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Ice Fang vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%)

196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%)
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Carvanha: 24-30 (114.2 - 142.8%)

76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%)


180 Atk Archen U-turn vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%)
180 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%)
180 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Ancient Power vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%)

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%)

196+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-9 (26.9 - 34.6%)
196+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%)

0 SpA Lileep Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Snubbull: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%)
0 SpA Lileep Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Snubbull: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%)

And yes Gen 5 was my favourite gen thank you for noticing


IN CONCLUSION:

  • Lileep has one of the higest split defenses in the tier.
  • It has the defenses to switch relatively safely in on several top threats, and threaten them out, even taking some +2 hits.
  • It has access to reliable recovery (Recover), and good support moves.
  • Great ability for stopping water types and potentially gaining a boost to further threaten switch-ins.
  • Can also run offensive set up sets with Curse, Swords Dance or Rock Polish.

If it was up to me Lileep would be A- or A but I guess that's a bit of a stretch going from C+.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top