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VGC 2016 Viability Rankings

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What does Gothorita even provide over Gothitelle anyway? Please no, 'evolite wielding trick room user, duh' posts.
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 265-315 (81.7 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the only benefit I can find. I guess the theory behind it is something along the line of P2 but with Shadow Tag.
 
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Also Talonflame should move down to A and/or Crobat should go up to A+. I think this was mentioned before but Crobat is in no way worse than Talonflame. Super Fang is incredibly useful and makes up for Crobat's general lack of offensive pressure
 
Just have an ally use TR for you duh
Agree with the above post on Crobat, it's definitely a big meta threat and Talon definitely isn't as impacting as Crobat.
 
Just have an ally use TR for you duh
Agree with the above post on Crobat, it's definitely a big meta threat and Talon definitely isn't as impacting as Crobat.

Going to disagree partially with Talonflame as it's been on alot of teams early on. It can deal a good amount of damage with Life Orb, gets priority which is great if Xerneas gets a Geomancy and priority tailwind too. It's basically has the offense crobat would love to have while Crobat has the bulk and supportive movepool. They play differently because of that but in no way is talonflame not having an impact
 
Going to disagree partially with Talonflame as it's been on alot of teams early on. It can deal a good amount of damage with Life Orb, gets priority which is great if Xerneas gets a Geomancy and priority tailwind too. It's basically has the offense crobat would love to have while Crobat has the bulk and supportive movepool. They play differently because of that but in no way is talonflame not having an impact
Bat can deal damage as well with super fang + partner (and if super fang does minimal damage then you can be assured that the partner is ko'ing anyhow)
85/80/80 is similar to 79/71/69 bulk as far as im concerned and are both equally terrible by uber standards.

The biggest difference is inner focus vs gale wings brave bird with the former having more utility in most cases than the latter. They play relatively similarly due to similar stats/movepools. Crobat mostly edges it out since being able to bypass fake out entirely is so important in this metagame and quick guard itself is not an adequate solution to fake out since it's risky af and still lets fake out accomplish its primary role of negating a target's action.

edit: also updates when plz help. Don't want to bother making points if op isn't going to update.
 
I've been playing the metagame more now and I'm just not finding Xerneas all that overwhelming, whether it be because my team checks it well or because I'm not finding myself able to use it in matches as much as I'd like. Stuff like Primal Groudon and Ferrothorn wall it to hell and back, and Fairy coverage doesn't seem to be all that useful this early in the metagame. Geomancy is still ridiculously hard to pull off, and the things you'd want to be hitting with Fairy coverage (like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamance) will easily chunk you, if not outright KO you, before you get the Geomancy off.

On paper, it sounds like a huge threat. In game, however, it doesn't seem to deliver much, in my opinion anyway. Maybe set up mons aren't my type of play style...
 
I've been playing the metagame more now and I'm just not finding Xerneas all that overwhelming, whether it be because my team checks it well or because I'm not finding myself able to use it in matches as much as I'd like. Stuff like Primal Groudon and Ferrothorn wall it to hell and back, and Fairy coverage doesn't seem to be all that useful this early in the metagame. Geomancy is still ridiculously hard to pull off, and the things you'd want to be hitting with Fairy coverage (like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamance) will easily chunk you, if not outright KO you, before you get the Geomancy off.

On paper, it sounds like a huge threat. In game, however, it doesn't seem to deliver much, in my opinion anyway. Maybe set up mons aren't my type of play style...

I completely agree. One of the teams I'm testing includes Greninja with Life Orb (Protean ability), and it just outright 1HKOs it each time with Gunk Shot IF IT LANDS. Gengar blows it up as well.

Pokemon I have any problem with is... surprise, surprise... Mega Kangaskhan. Getting real sick of dealing with it.
 
I've been playing the metagame more now and I'm just not finding Xerneas all that overwhelming, whether it be because my team checks it well or because I'm not finding myself able to use it in matches as much as I'd like. Stuff like Primal Groudon and Ferrothorn wall it to hell and back, and Fairy coverage doesn't seem to be all that useful this early in the metagame. Geomancy is still ridiculously hard to pull off, and the things you'd want to be hitting with Fairy coverage (like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamance) will easily chunk you, if not outright KO you, before you get the Geomancy off.

On paper, it sounds like a huge threat. In game, however, it doesn't seem to deliver much, in my opinion anyway. Maybe set up mons aren't my type of play style...
Now here's the thing. Even when you consider these things, you have to keep 1 or 2 things in mind:

First of all, every Pokemon (well, besides Kangaskhan and Primal Groudon) loses to something. Xerneas is no exception as it heavily relies on its fairy coverage and in Geomancy to attack, but let's be real. Every team is FORCED to run a stop for Xerneas, and a lot of teams actually run 2 because 1 isn't enough. That kind of pressure since teambuilding stage makes Xerneas already A or A+ material by itself.

Now, let's think about how does one think about stops for Xerneas. Something that prevents it from freely setting up Geomancy, right? Ok so what stops for Xerneas do we have to stop it AFTER the Geomancy? Not much besides like Ferrothorn, really. This forces the player to try and do its best to alright prevent it to set up a Geomancy by the means of Fake Out / Taunt but then again, Xerneas can capitalize on it and attack / Protect freely while you look like an idiot and you let the partner do everything.

Also, Xerneas is part of one of the most deadly if not the deadliest combinations in the game, this being Xerneas + Smeargle.

I'm pretty sure Xerneas is a metagame defining Pokemon which justifies its placing at S rank:

Reserved for the top threats in the VGC16 metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.
Top Threat? Definitely.
Multiple roles? ehhh... not really. Actually in this aspect A+ fits it more, yeah.
Few to no flaws? Definitely. Has amazing bulk, good speed tier (welp, outspeed 90s which is kind of nice), a really good ability, Geomancy and it's very strong. Few flaws? yep, you're vulnerable to taunt/knock off and you can't touch steel-types but that's pretty much it.
Any flaws can be taken care of with little to no team support? Just slap a Primal Groudon together with Xerneas and you're golden. Not even kidding. Ferrothorn and Smeargle can also support it very well, so yeah...
 
Now here's the thing. Even when you consider these things, you have to keep 1 or 2 things in mind:

First of all, every Pokemon (well, besides Kangaskhan and Primal Groudon) loses to something. Xerneas is no exception as it heavily relies on its fairy coverage and in Geomancy to attack, but let's be real. Every team is FORCED to run a stop for Xerneas, and a lot of teams actually run 2 because 1 isn't enough. That kind of pressure since teambuilding stage makes Xerneas already A or A+ material by itself.

Now, let's think about how does one think about stops for Xerneas. Something that prevents it from freely setting up Geomancy, right? Ok so what stops for Xerneas do we have to stop it AFTER the Geomancy? Not much besides like Ferrothorn, really. This forces the player to try and do its best to alright prevent it to set up a Geomancy by the means of Fake Out / Taunt but then again, Xerneas can capitalize on it and attack / Protect freely while you look like an idiot and you let the partner do everything.

Also, Xerneas is part of one of the most deadly if not the deadliest combinations in the game, this being Xerneas + Smeargle.

I'm pretty sure Xerneas is a metagame defining Pokemon which justifies its placing at S rank:


Top Threat? Definitely.
Multiple roles? ehhh... not really. Actually in this aspect A+ fits it more, yeah.
Few to no flaws? Definitely. Has amazing bulk, good speed tier (welp, outspeed 90s which is kind of nice), a really good ability, Geomancy and it's very strong. Few flaws? yep, you're vulnerable to taunt/knock off and you can't touch steel-types but that's pretty much it.
Any flaws can be taken care of with little to no team support? Just slap a Primal Groudon together with Xerneas and you're golden. Not even kidding. Ferrothorn and Smeargle can also support it very well, so yeah...

I think you make some great points, but again, these are all ideas that make it sound like a threatening force, when from what I've seen, it really isn't. Maybe I'm playing against low level players or something, but Xerneas is the least of my concerns when I see it on team preview.

Also, I used to run a team that had 5/6 of the mons you listed in your signature (I'm using Mega Salamanca instead of Hydreigon) and found Xerneas so underwhelming that I replaced it with Ho-oh, which I've found a lot more success using.

I'm not sure what it is. I just don't find this thing as threatening as either Primal. Even Mega-Rayquaza scares me more than Xerneas... I expect Xerneas' placement to drop as the season moves along.
 
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Ditto is easily A- Pokemon, I dont get why is it so low. I has an amazing nichr of stealing opponents boosted mon and S ranks, making it 4 "super mons" against 3 of you play it correctly.
 
Ditto is easily A- Pokemon, I dont get why is it so low. I has an amazing nichr of stealing opponents boosted mon and S ranks, making it 4 "super mons" against 3 of you play it correctly.
Ditto is super good but it is a gimmick and requires a lot of skill unlike pokemon such as mega kang and pdon
 
Ye, but how can Conkeldurr be higher ranked than Ditto? lol Just look at the usage stats to see there is something wrong with this. :/
Wide guard support vs transforming into a xerneas and still almost getting 2HKOed by dazzling gleam-(i made xenreas' hit points 48 for the calc)
252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Fairy Aura Xerneas: 70-84 (45.1 - 54.1%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO

I think you make some great points, but again, these are all ideas that make it sound like a threatening force, when from what I've seen, it really isn't. Maybe I'm playing against low level players or something, but Xerneas is the least of my concerns when I see it on team preview.

Also, I used to run a team that had 5/6 of the mons you listed in your signature (I'm using Mega Salamanca instead of Hydreigon) and found Xerneas so underwhelming that I replaced it with Ho-oh, which I've found a lot more success using.

I'm not sure what it is. I just don't find this thing as threatening as either Primal. Even Mega-Rayquaza scares me more than Xerneas... I expect Xerneas' placement to drop as the season moves along.

Well it is easy to find xerneas underwhelming because many team out right have 2-3 ways to stop it before and after geomancy. But u need to play it wise with xern identifying those counters is really good.Most of them are only one time surprise such as enocre on a relatively slow Pokemon like encore togekiss and don't work the that well the second time in a Best Of Three so identifying and watching out for surpries taunt,encore and roar users is a must.
 
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Ye, but how can Conkeldurr be higher ranked than Ditto? lol Just look at the usage stats to see there is something wrong with this. :/

Useage stats aren't viability stats. On the subject of Conkeldurr however, it's one of the most viable Wide Guard users, a Status absorber for Thunderwave spam, a nice poke in Trick Room yet it deserves to be deranked to B- instead of Mid B. Reasoning:
It's offencive pressure is more limited then anything outside of Trick Room as it's just too slow and too specialy weak to deal with most of the common threats even the ones it is ment to check. One example of this is Dialga who could Draco and potentialy 1HKO it even with max HP investment (252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 189-223 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO). Assault Vest can be utilised aswell of course however this means no Protect or Wide Guard. Kangaskan could potentialy KO the same set with just Return and a Helping Hand Boost, not even speaking of the fact cresselia could outspeed Conk and use Psychic and 2HKO.0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 114-134 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Conkeldurr also checks only few pokes, however it becomes more notable when using the AV set as the combination of AV + Drain Punch Recovery can be very nice if you're slow. Keep in mind No Protect/Wide Guard however aswell as the fact you're so slow.
Mega Kanga, Mega Gengar, Dialga, Kyurem-W, Ferrothorn, Liepard,.... That's it? Still reasonable enough to justify it being usefull for B, but I am not too satisfied as it loses to both Primal's, is mostly useless against most other things on the list if it's coverage doesn't give it the use to deal with them ex. Ice Punch or Rock Slide.
It's offence while amazing still lacks against the Ubers including Dialga that doesn't mind it recovering as it did still win even when including Mach Punch. (if no AV/TR)
Ferrothorn loses to it, but that's not even a Uber threat, it's just an average VGC pokemon.
 
I feel that infernape is a bit low on the viability ranking.
Infernape has good range of support moves from a fake out that outspeed kangaskhan,encore etc.
Infernapes options include: Feint,Fake out,Quick guard,role play,encore,taunt,roar,Close combat & overheat(for damage options).
So I think infernape deserves to move up.

Infernape from 'B-' -------> 'B+'/'B'
 
Gastrodon C-->B (at least):

Gastrodon deals with PGroudon very well, and also deals with PKyogre. Rotom-W is completely countered, The genie Trio are scared of its Ice Beam, and Scald helps it spread burns. This pokemon literally has sooo many uses. It is way to good for C tier.
 
Gastrodon C-->B (at least):

Gastrodon deals with PGroudon very well, and also deals with PKyogre. Rotom-W is completely countered, The genie Trio are scared of its Ice Beam, and Scald helps it spread burns. This pokemon literally has sooo many uses. It is way to good for C tier.
While I agree it should be higher than C, I'm not sure if its B material, maybe B- would suit it for now.
 
Gastrodon C-->B (at least):

Gastrodon deals with PGroudon very well, and also deals with PKyogre. Rotom-W is completely countered, The genie Trio are scared of its Ice Beam, and Scald helps it spread burns. This pokemon literally has sooo many uses. It is way to good for C tier.

Rotom-W isn't even worth while to note, I did instead note the possitive uses for Trick Room and dealing with Mega Mawile,(M-)Gengar etc.
I do agree with it being more then C materia, even worth B- as it does pose an amazing treath for any type.

PS: Is this thread going to be updated or?
 
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