Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[p2]

> s.
i wanna see keldeo in s rank because its simply put one of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier and has fantastic defensive utility along with it. you've got a pokemon that can easily check bisharp, weavile, scizor, all 3 of which are insanely threatening to the common bulky offense teams going around right now, which simply put, is a godsend for these teams and ho teams. offensively keldeo is really dumb, you've got a mon that picks its own checks and counters with its 4th move and the choice of item or even set and has ridiculous offensive presence because its scald is capable of screwing over so much with ease. you might bring up the comparison, "why rise keldeo because of scald when other pokemon get it and do the same thing" keldeos scalds sting like a bitch and hits extremely hard when you compare it to the likes of slowbro because keld has 129 spa fully invested, that's why keldeo is such a pain for teams, it hits extremely hard and also has a chance of dealing further damage and given that its going to be firing off a ton of scalds every game, a burn is more than likely to happen. the fact that it has secret sword and hydro pump for just crushing other walls is just so good because it means that its a special attacker not walled to hell by chansey and its a water type thats never 100% walled by mega venusaur, which is just amazing.

> a+.
yeah one of the best pokemon in the tier, having great offensive and defensive sets and a great ability and all that, yeah its awesome but i don't think it should go to s. it still has problems in ice and water types being really common and stuff like skarmory, other lando and rotom-w just screw over such a large majority of sets and said sets which can power through (smack down) have declined in usage because there's less stall to break. i still think lando is incredible don’t get me wrong but i just don’t think its cut out for s rank just because of the ever increasing popularity of stuff like keldeo and mamoswine which is back on the rise as well as other stuff that naturally outspeed it and easily pick it off.

> a+.
nah keep hoopa in a+ lol. cb destroys so many teams and it just 2hkos everything in the tier minimum save for niche stuff that nobody actually uses. it can be a defensive liability on teams but really, for such an offensive monster it has solid enough utility in taking some of the most powerful special attacks in the tier like chary’s fire blast, lati dracos, etc. it’s a solid check for psychic types too because its typing enables to switch in once or twice outside of rare signal beam variants. i don’t see what has changed for it for it to actually drop, just keep it in a+. basically what vertex said.

ffs make torn s already

 

[squirtletheturtle]

> s.
the fact that it has secret sword and hydro pump for just crushing other walls is just so good because it means that its a special attacker not walled to hell by chansey and its a water type thats never 100% walled by mega venusaur, which is just amazing.

if we're referring to the choice set, you'll have to be really good at predicting in order to not get "walled by chansey." also don't know what you mean by its not 100% walled by mega venusaur...unless you're talking about scald burns (not really something id name advantage cuz this could be said about any pokemon that uses scald). but yeah, i used keldeo a bit more, and i agree it should move to S because it provides amazing offensive and defensive assets to teams. special walls aren't safe cuz of secret sword. stupid fairies (namely clefable) aren't safe because its water attacks sheer power.

> a+.
yeah one of the best pokemon in the tier, having great offensive and defensive sets and a great ability and all that, yeah its awesome but i don't think it should go to s. it still has problems in ice and water types being really common and stuff like skarmory, other lando and rotom-w just screw over such a large majority of sets and said sets which can power through (smack down) have declined in usage because there's less stall to break. i still think lando is incredible don’t get me wrong but i just don’t think its cut out for s rank just because of the ever increasing popularity of stuff like keldeo and mamoswine which is back on the rise as well as other stuff that naturally outspeed it and easily pick it off.

this i won't agree with. placing all of its checks and counters on a pedestal is no way to judge a pokemon and its value. i could just as easily argue that keldeo shouldn't move up due to the rise of bulky grasses or due to the fact that the latis are super abundant, outspeed and ko it, or due to the fact that electric types roam the tier. i could easily say clefable gets shot down by hoopa-u's gunk shot, a well timed steel type attack, or heatran (which is like top 5 in usage isn't it?)

what makes a clefable and keldeo S is the offensive and defensive assets it can supply to the team. and when i look at landorus-t it does just that. with its flying type and intimidate, it check ou's most brutal physical attackers. it can glue teams together as a pivot, support with rocks, or rip teams apart late game (where most of its checks and counters have been eliminated) using a sweeping set. u-turn and smack down give it ways to dance around its checks. versatility, offensive and defensive assets, splashability, ways to work around its checks at a top notch level solidifies lando's placement in S.

ffs make torn s already

i have a question to all that support this: does tornadus-t cost games? if yes, then it isnt a reliable pokemon and thus shouldn't deserve S. i like tornadus t as much as the next guy. it pivoting, movepool, and tough to kill. i get it. but seriously, the fact that a player can play really well, then lose because this blind genie missed a hurricane, makes all the stuff it did well in the match (insert every quality that is good about tornadus) all for naught.

 

[Freeroamer]

You obviously didn't read his post very well cos he went to the trouble of explaining exactly why Keldeos Scald can't really be compared to the other Scalds in the tier. Let's look at the comparison of Slowbro vs Keld, before a boost its 236 vs 357 Special Attack, and consider then that Keldeo is often boosted by Specs and is faster than the said Venusaur, and you can pretty easily see(I hope) why Venu can be overwhelmed especially when you bring shit like sand and rocks into the equation lol.

Yea again you're not getting it in the Keld comparisons... The diff with Keld and Lando from a checks and counters perspective is that Lando will p much always have a set group of counters that counter it p well outside of niche sets which give up some other utility in order to not get countered by said mon. For example Lando using Smack Down for Skarm / Rotom etc. Keld only really needs dual Water and SS and then what counters it depends on its last slot. Your bulky Grasses can get whittled/blown back by HP Bug or by Icy Wind, Gyara by elec etc. Outside of a narrow group of mons (think Slowking etc) you're hoping Keld doesn't have the move that bops your check to it lol.

I want some of whatever the dudes that think Venu should rise are having because I think it's godawful and should probs drop a lot sooner than rising.

 

[green gadgets]

every few weeks after Keldeo moved to S someone is talking about that the metagame has adapted to it and it should drop. few weeks after Keldeo was moved to A+ people see the benefits and nominate it to S rank. I don't know if this is really a solution Keldeo by far one of the better A+ Ranks if not the best, but every few weeks this discussion about moving down and up. S-Rank should be something special and not every Pokemon in A+ Rank should be moved up only bc it's good right now, ofc it's good it's A+. S-Rank should be for Pokemons which dominate the Metagame or for `mons who doesn't require much to bring the game in your favour.

Don't get me wrong. Keldeo is a fantastic Pokemon (let's imagine what will happen when Keldeo get actually a useful ability) but it's not S-Rank worthy for me.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

You obviously didn't read his post very well cos he went to the trouble of explaining exactly why Keldeos Scald can't really be compared to the other Scalds in the tier. Let's look at the comparison of Slowbro vs Keld, before a boost its 236 vs 357 Special Attack, and consider then that Keldeo is often boosted by Specs and is faster than the said Venusaur, and you can pretty easily see(I hope) why Venu can be overwhelmed especially when you bring shit like sand and rocks into the equation lol.

Yea again you're not getting it in the Keld comparisons... The diff with Keld and Lando from a checks and counters perspective is that Lando will p much always have a set group of counters that counter it p well outside of niche sets which give up some other utility in order to not get countered by said mon. For example Lando using Smack Down for Skarm / Rotom etc. Keld only really needs dual Water and SS and then what counters it depends on its last slot. Your bulky Grasses can get whittled/blown back by HP Bug or by Icy Wind, Gyara by elec etc. Outside of a narrow group of mons (think Slowking etc) you're hoping Keld doesn't have the move that bops your check to it lol.

specs keldeo can score a 4hko with scald or icy wind on offensive mega venusaur. (the other moves ain't gonna ko). the best it can do against amoonguss is a 5hko. it has a shot at a 2hko with secret sword against assault vest tangrowth (which btw, hp bug is rare and is a 3hko). of these mons, since you are choiced, you need to predict the switch correctly in order to dent the bulky grass (and even then, two of these pokemon have regenerator). and are you assuming sandstorm will be up every time? keldeo's scald will take a while to actually "overpower" venusaur. and what's to stop venusaur from using synthesis or giga drain while keldeo switches out? you're literally saying keldeo can beat bulky grasses if it predicts right with a specs boosted move, (in venusaur's case) if sandstorm is up and chip damage is happening. that's a big if.

apologies. can't post the calcs. im on a phone. but keldeo ain't busting through a bulky grass on its own unless it is REALLY weakened.

landorus-t brings useful assets to the table with the many roles it can perform (which is already enough in my eyes for an S rank). i added the bit about smack down and u-turn to mention that landorus-t can dance around its checks. my point was no pokemon can beat everything in the tier. take into account the stuff said mon can do to work its way around it or look into its value to decide whether or not it is a top meta pick.

both keldeo and landorus-t should move to S. i have nothing against either of them. i simply found reasoning against lando to be overemphasizing the negatives. and i found reasoning for keldeo overstating its capabilities in practice.

 

[Giagantic]

every few weeks after Keldeo moved to S someone is talking about that the metagame has adapted to it and it should drop. few weeks after Keldeo was moved to A+ people see the benefits and nominate it to S rank. I don't know if this is really a solution Keldeo by far one of the better A+ Ranks if not the best, but every few weeks this discussion about moving down and up. S-Rank should be something special and not every Pokemon in A+ Rank should be moved up only bc it's good right now, ofc it's good it's A+. S-Rank should be for Pokemons which dominate the Metagame or for `mons who doesn't require much to bring the game in your favour.

Don't get me wrong. Keldeo is a fantastic Pokemon (let's imagine what will happen when Keldeo get actually a useful ability) but it's not S-Rank worthy for me.

Thing is the viability ranking is meant to display what is exceptionally good at the moment, basically, it gives a glimpse into what is strong and what is weak presently. Keldeo is, in the meta's current incarnation, an S rank pokemon for all of the reasons stated over the past few pages and more. A key aspect that has been repeated time after time is that S rank pokemon are almost all self-sufficient, being able to operate both by themselves and as a cohesive element of your team. Keldeo fits that description of S rank quite well, the value inherent to Keldeo is huge moreso then every other S rank mon besides Clefable, its strengths are undeniable and its typing and coverage amazing as a whole (despite movepool). Sure, maybe down the road Keldeo will drop again... so what... the Viability rank will constantly be in a state of flux based on the popularity of certain pokemon, sets, etc...

 

[Srn]

Thing is the viability ranking is meant to display what is exceptionally good at the moment, basically, it gives a glimpse into what is strong and what is weak presently. Keldeo is, in the meta's current incarnation, an S rank pokemon for all of the reasons stated over the past few pages and more. A key aspect that has been repeated time after time is that S rank pokemon are almost all self-sufficient, being able to operate both by themselves and as a cohesive element of your team. Keldeo fits that description of S rank quite well, the value inherent to Keldeo is huge moreso then every other S rank mon besides Clefable, its strengths are undeniable and its typing and coverage amazing as a whole (despite movepool). Sure, maybe down the road Keldeo will drop again... so what... the Viability rank will constantly be in a state of flux based on the popularity of certain pokemon, sets, etc...

Ok this is the part that I don't get.
Since when did keldeo get so much better? Can anybody cite some gigantic shift in the meta which made keldeo SO much better that it all of a sudden deserves S ranking?
SPL cumulative statistics so far put latios at #4, latias (usually mega) and slowbro tied for #11, and amoonguss and azu tied at #15. While the mons that get the top usage are mons that keldeo can pressure (lando-t #1, ttar #2, chomp #4), this could also apply to several other mons, such as weavile or manaphy. Moreover, the mons that keldeo checks (bisharp, zor, weavile) rank #26 for zor, #43 for weavile, and bisharp didn't even make the cut wow. Its super duper valuable defensive bulk or whatever is getting less and less useful. You could also say that "Wow ttar usage is so high, ofc keldeo is a great choice!!!1!" but keldeo is far from the only check on offense to ttar; conversely, keldeo is often the only check on offense to mons like weavile and bisharp. All its bulk is good for at this point is switching into grounds, taking half from eq, forcing them out with scald, and failing to burn the check(s) that every single team has.

People also really seem to be riding this myth that keldeo's scald singlehandedly and consistently beats all of its checks or something. The burn itself is far from gauranteed, if you get unlucky then all your hard work getting keldeo free switch-ins goes to waste. But that's the really big point here. You need to get keldeo in i'd estimate an average of 3 times to break a check (which almost any offensive mon can do lol), and the number rises exponentially if they have two checks (keldeo will almost never break through amoong+slowbro). I doubt the point i'm trying to make will really be understood, so instead, can you guys find any tournament level replays where a specs keldeo breaks through its checks and goes on to threaten the team afterwards? Because for every one that is found, I can probably find 5 where it doesn't happen.

Tournament usage statisitics aside, every single team carries a keldeo check, and while it could be argued that the specs set "picks its counters," it doesn't often work out that nicely. The fact that scald burning the check OR any kind of weird double the opponent pulls means that scald is the better play 80% of the time, and if you predict wrongly, being locked into a super weak icy wind or hidden power just giftwraps momentum to the opponent, which can be especially punishing for offense. It's not uncommon to predict the mvenu and click hp flying as you frown at the heatran revealing protect or switch into chansey (exclusive to ladder gods); forcing you out and giving it another free turn.

Keldeo makes a half decent scarfer tho. And those restalk sets are pretty cool vs stall and such, they keep surviving and dont get worn down by status or hazards like specs would.
This post was really really biased against keldeo but I'd rather spend my time pointing out its flaws because we all know why its good.
SO yeah keldeo to stay A+

EDIT: bludz I used cumulative SPL stats, not weekly, and trends were similar in OST playoffs. And whenever the tour stats show dark type's prevalence, we can raise keldeo then. No need to rush.

 

[Costi]

Hi people, gonna make a nom I feel could be nice.

From C --> B-

Yes, I know, 2 sub ranks are a lot and I'm ok with C+, but C really do not represent the viability of this thing.

First of all. There isn't a single mon in C rank on par with this. Most of the mon in C rank are really overlooked, but not whimsi, which could be an invaluable asset for offense, not like some shit like Mbanette, Mabsol, standard venusaur and so on.
Let's speak about it and why the meta is changed in a way where Whimsi is more viable.

1) The offense shift of the meta. Whimsicott really enjoy a more offensive metagame and it has a very valuable asset in stun spore, slowing down fast mons or encore preventing the opposition to exploit something like a Scarf ttar locked into pursuit which give the opposition the ability to setup with Zard X or whatever. Let's look how Specs Keldeo is good these days and think about how easily the opponent could exploit a choice locked Keldeo to setup --> for exaple Clefable who start to setup CM and win the game.
2) Sand offense is probably at his maximum usage. Let's see SPL these days and watch how many matches were mirror of ttar + excadrill. Here you have a tool to shut down (with stun spore) one of the most common and annoying archetype in the game
3) It's an excellent pivot. When people think to a volturn core, they usually end up with something like MManectric + Landorus with a more offensive approach or something like Rotom-W + Landorus for a more defensive approach. Whimsi ability to pivot in and out it's really good. It has an immunity, plenty of resistances, u-turn and it soft checks a lot in ou metagame, like Keldeo, Azumarill when you predict AJ or Waterfall or knock off, Landorus-t which is totally on the rise, Serperior and the Lati to an extent. Yes, I know it's a shaky check to all this stuff, but in an offensive team you don't really need to check these threats for days, just need to pivot in and out to let a breaker like Azumarill doing a number on the opposition.

Whimsicott has its flaws, the most prominent one is the lack of real bulk, but when you see the ranking I think that this one is really really really better than the majority of thing in C and C+. Let's be real, something like Seismitoad (C+) is good, but in this offensive metagame I feel it's just worse than something like Whimsicott. You can really fit on more teams then what the actual VR is reflecting.

Hope you guys agree on this and sorry for any english mistakes, I'm just bad sometimes lol

 

[Vinc608]

I used Whimiscott a couple of times, and I would say that it is better than before in the actual metagame. But B- is clearly overselling it. Its bulk is clearly bad, it can't even take attacks it supposed to take. For example, when I saw "252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 169-199 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery" i was like "wow this thing is so frail". The big problem is that it is completely walled by balanced / stall archetype. It really restricts teambuilding because you need wallbreaker like Crawdaunt or something like that. I think it should stay C Rank, but I wouldn't mind too much if it goes to C+.

 

[bludz]

Srn if you want the metagame shift reason it is really quite simple. Dark types. Dark types are more common than ever because of excellent neutral coverage on their STAB and ability to pressure hazard removers. Has this changed from 6 months ago? Not particularly, but a metagame takes a while to form and the popularity of dark types is now up. The effect of Weaviles rise and the introduction of Hoopa have lasting impacts that are not realized right away. The rise of Sand is relevant here too since TTar is kinda the better setter now. People are now seeing how powerful dark types can be - and we have more options than ever.

Keldeo not only checks basically all the most relevant dark types, but forms a really potent offensive core with most of them. Pursuit + Keldeo is deadly vs offense which tends to carry 1-2 checks which he most common tend to be Latis and others like Azu hate being burned. In this offensive metagame, Keldeo thrives as both a powerful attacker and a means of threat control against said Darks and some of their checks i.e. Scizor

Not saying there's no argument for A+ but its definitely above the level of most of the things there.

PS: SPL isn't a bad place to draw data but you have to consider the relatively small sample size here what with it being pretty early in. Bisharp not making the cut just shows its not the best idea to assume these stats represent the metagame perfectly

 

[die strong]

The point being made about keldeo's scald breaking venusaur isn't that it's gonna outright break it. Burn + rocks allows keldeo to break mega venu with specs hydro late game.

 

[MANNAT]

In order to add on to die strong's point, the chip damage from burn and rocks forces Venu to use up its 8 uses of synthesis significantly quicker since the chip damage will wear venu down to the range of not being able to switch into shit since it's 12% extra every turn, and it can kill venu in only 9 turns if it doesn't heal up, so the damaging racking up really takes a toll on venu. Additionally, Keldeo really has some freedom in its last coverage slot that helps it deal with shit a lot easier since it can hit like slowbro/starmie/latis with hp bug or tornt/latis with icy wind, and the rise of dark types is really nice for keldeo on two sides. First of all, Keldeo is an excellent check to pretty much every dark type in the game, with secret sword OHKOing weavile,ttar, and bisharp regardless of set as well as specs secret sword blowing hoopa back as well. Additionally, dark types being more common means that pursuit trapping can be used to eliminate psychic types that can switch into Keldeo. TTar usage in general is through the roof, especially in tours, so the lati twins are going to have trouble beating Keldeo without getting trapped, and it gives u the ability to make aggressive plays early-mid game so that the opponent's team has a hard time recovering from Keldeo's onslaught, at least this is what I can concur from my experience.

 

[a301ieddie]

I agree with the couple posts I saw for azu to S. It faces a huge speed deficit when compared with Keldeo and also lacks the scald utility Keldeo brings. However, it offers a significant difference in bulk to go with fantastic defensive typing. Its speed is mitigated a bit by priority and the fairy typing advantage over Keldeo can stave off the Latis trying to drop Dracos on you. It also gains utility in its ability to bring knock off in the 4th moveslot. Just the threat of the Belly Drum set makes this thing scary to play against. Stuff like Rotom W doesn't want to switch in on a play rough from the banded set. It has the AV set as well, which I find to be far worse than the Belly Drum/Band sets but still a viable option.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

Keldeo at this point is either S-Rank or the best mon in A+. The fact that it checks almost every darktype by virtue of its typing is great. Most of its checks can be trapped and murderd or are easy to wear down (the only one that doesnt get reckt by default is amoongus i guess). It has a good synergy with TTar, which is currently rising. Ttars Sandstream is another point that screws over Venu as counter. After sand, rocks and maybe a scald burn venu breaks down very quickly. Synthesis at this point is needed to recover the passive dmg it takes every time it comes in which results in a free switch for the keldeo/ttar team. Exca kinda likes the other 2 anyway and thats probably the one thing that should not get a free switch in the current meta.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

uh guys, Landorus-T, Latios, Keldeo, Azumarill, and Tornadus-T are all potential candidates for S-rank. isnt that a bit...much? especially if mega sableye and clefable are counted? (charizard x is 100% dropping pretty sure we're all in agreement). yea i get that inflated rankings mean nothing but this is a bit much in how generous and soft we are being in the qualifications of an S rank pokemon. all of these pokemon are very good but imo, separate the mons that are really good from the mons that are amazing. not trying to sound rude, but i think this is a bit over the top.

Clefable, Landorus-T, Keldeo, and Azumarill sound S-rank worthy. Strengths are metadefining, weaknesses are small gripes in comparison to the value of those strengths (and some can work around their checks), splashable and they don't require as much support to function as mons in A+.

about Keldeo, i mentioned the problem with choice specs sets requiring too much prediction (some targets can take one STAB really well, and the other not well. example includes chansey who can take scalds all day but not secret sword). i used the life orb set and it fixes a couple of these problems. the ability to switch moves is helpful in remedying this problem at the cost of some power and the recoil. yea its not as powerful by hey, just a thought. despite what ppl seem to say, a well-played bulky grass type won't be broken through by a keldeo most of the time, but the ability to dent some of them with icy wind and possible burn is something keldeo has to work its way around them. the whole "picking its counters thing" is not an argument in its favor.

Imo, Latios suffers from too many problems to be considered S. Unlike the previous four, it has to make huge sacrifices to get around its checks.

Tornadus-T i was being hard on this mon because people are being too dang lenient on the qualifications of an S mon. the problem it has is huge and its way more noticable compared to the flaws of the first four i mentioned. those guys can do their job almost every time in the hands of a competent player. this genie here has an attitude that can cost games.

Mega Sableye's problem is the fact that it a) takes a mega slot and b) it can get overwhelmed by the many strong wallbreakers in the tier. i thing i saw in its favor is its many qualities (stallbreaker, utility, entry hazard bouncer) and the fact that it doesn't require as much support to function. problems are very much noticeable and prevalent though so a drop makes sense.

charizard x needs too much support. he has a long list of things that need to be gone before he can actually do anything. he's a mega too. dropping makes sense.

something i see in keldeo, azu, landorus-t and clefable that i don't see in the other candidates is just the simple fact that they can work around their problems or give so much, for so little opportunity cost. landorus-t offers astounding versatility, rocks, intimidate, useful flying type to check grounds (namely excadrill and other lando) and the easy glue and momentum gainer to teams that need that pivoting. and u-turn is the main way around his checks. both water types can wreak havoc on the prevalance of dark types. azu offers fantastic defensive typing, priority, its power, and the threat of a belly drum set. yeah the grass types hurt it but this is generally small gripes in comparison to what it can offer offensive and defensively. sandstorm and darks are prevalent. and hey, neat bonuses include superpower for ferro and knock off. already talked about keldeo.

im not gonna lie about the fact that these mons have flaws. azu and keldeo hate bulky grass types. lando despises water and ice types. but what separates them from the rest of the pokemon is the fact that they will almost always be rewarding with a competent player using them, they can consistently work around their counters without giving up too much, and the fact that they are generally just more threatening.

that said, i can see the reasoning behind arguments in favor of sableye, torn and latios. and they are in a similar boat in what they offer. but their flaws are just a bit too big to overlook. tornadus-t and latios to S is really pushing it imo (more of an extent on latios).

there isn't any doubt that these 8 pokemon are the best in OU. but the some noms sound a bit too hasty or too lenient or too harsh. i see a strong cut between good and great. in terms of S rank, slapping 8+ mons in S sounds rather insane.

 

[bludz]

there isn't any doubt that these 8 pokemon are the best in OU. but the some noms sound a bit too hasty or too lenient or too harsh. i see a strong cut between good and great. in terms of S rank, slapping 8+ mons in S sounds rather insane.

Your post is long so I'm not gonna respond to all of it. But you have to realize that nominations do not mean that these things will all happen -- in fact it's pretty clear in this case that not all these moves will happen. Having nominations that aren't going to happen is not a bad thing; it promotes discussion and if the discussion is good this will improve awareness and understanding of the current state of the metagame.

In case you were curious it is very unlikely that Latios will go to S rank. Azumarill is not really being considered too much at this time either. I was once a proponent of this move but I believe its poor speed tier makes it susceptible to a lot of things even though priority makes up for it in certain circumstances.

 

[green gadgets]

Why is Mega Venusaur A-Rank when Latios, Torn-T and Sand is everywhere? The only thing it does it counter Azumarill. It needs so much support, like Hazard removal, change in weather as Synthesis gets a lot worse, cleric because it hates being burned. With Torn-T and the rise of Mega Pinsir MVenusaur is not a good Mega Pokemon right now. Heatran walls it completly and spam Lava Plume or Magma Storm till it dies. Kyurem-Black which I think should rise can hit it with Ice Beam for super effective damage. It's not really support that MVenu needs, it's an assemble of 5 pokemon that it needs just to be "good".
Mega Venusaur should drop to A- or maybe any further

Latios's play is too obvious to make it S-Rank imO. If it lacks HP Fire it can't do much against Bisharp on the switch in, after a Draco Meteor it's only a gamble if Pursuit or Sucker Punch is clicked. Latios has only like 5 useful moves. Draco Meteor, Psyshock, HP Fire, Defog and Roost. Earthquake against non Air Ballon Heatran and maybe Memento are the other Options and they are niche at best. Tyranitar is the better Sand setter right now and it scares Latios away.
Latios stay in A+

I have no Opinion about Azumarill because I don't really play much with. When I played with it the low Speed stat was always a hindurance. It felt like the only move it had was Aqua Jet because how slow Azumarill is. Play Rough and Ice Punch are good coverage moves but either I was forced to switch, because of the slow speed it gets hit often and the bulk is not great, or it was a bulky pokemon which can take the hit and dealt high damage back.

Landorus-Therian is such an anoying pokemon. God, I hate it. But when TankChomp was the most used Pokemon in the tier it never got S-Rank because there was only one set that was good without being a gimmick. I like TankChomp more then defensive Lando, but Lando has Intimidate and generate easier momentum with U-Turn. Scarf Lando is always an Option for the surprise factor. It can handle it checks much more easier then TankChomp. It should be S-Rank just because how much pressure it provides. Earthquake, Stone Edge, Knock Off, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Superpower even things like Rock Polish and Sword Dance are avaiable.
Landorus-Therian should be S-Rank

 

[a301ieddie]

Mega Saur shouldn't move up but I don't think it should move down either. Sand is everywhere and that hurts it pretty badly. It's great to have against rain if you get around Tornadus and rain still has a prescence, at least on the ladder. Sand is way, way more common. Which oddly enough I forgot to mention as a positive for Azu since it's great to have against ttar and excadrill. Aqua jet scares the hell out of exca In a way Keldeo can't. The trouble Venu has even with Keldeo, especially in sand, has already been mentioned. It's still a solid mon for balance and bulky offense though and shouldn't drop either imo.

Lando should be S. I have zero doubt about this for reasons already mentioned.

I'm not sure Sableye should drop either. It may seem underwhelming off the bat compared to the other S rank mons but it's hazard control is so nice to have and not just for stall. While it's basically what's keeping stall alive atthis point I see value in it even for offense. The longevity it can provide less bulky offensive mons with hazard control and burns is nice. Clef and Heatran as rock setters give no shits about it but Lando and Chomp want no part of it. Using Diancie for hazard control can be be dangerous if you run into scarf chomp or scarf lando and eat an earthquake expecting the switch. More so for chomp. They can also stay in on the protect bluffing the scarf set and get rocks out on the switch. So I can see value for it even on offense. It kind of kills momentum which isn't good but not devestating. I don't know if it should drop.

Wanted to add I completely agree with littlelucario. Azu can take hits from a TON of shit so it's not a liability outsideof aqua jet. Jet is probably my least used move on it.

Wanted to also add something on Chomp. I saw a post assuming tank chomp is the only viable option on chomp. I get ridiculed for it on the ladder and may here as well but oh well. Scarf chomp is very viable. It's won me a ton of games. I use rocks on it as a bluff for the tank chomp set. If you successfully bluff tank chomp with rocks and switch out it can demolish counters to it late game. Think your Latios, DD'd Zard X, Specs Keldeo, Raikou, Talonflame, Mega Diancie, hidden power Ice Thundy, Mega Garde are killing it? Nope. Hello to outrage Latios and Zard. Eat an equake Diancie and Raikou. Stone edge says high TFlame and Thundy. Even if you don't actually bluff the tank set everyone always assumes the tank set and hold these counters for it and end up demolished. Maybe that mentality is what makes it good but I find it to be very good for me.

 

[pika pal]

I feel like Sand becoming more common is kind of a mixed bag with Mega Venusaur: Venusaur loses recovery in Sand, which obviously hinders its ability to function as a general check. I will also say Venusaur isn't great against Excadrill and is probably more threatening against the setters on Paper than in Practice

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 136-162 (37.6 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Assuming min rolls for 2 Giga Drains' healing: 359 + 136 = 495 HP to knock out. Excadrill needs to hit 165 on all 3 rolls to KO without hazards from full, which is at the upper end of its rolls. Now that's not too common a scenario, so Venusaur doesn't match up the best against Sand Rush Drill, but I feel like there's some EV tweaking that could amend that. The offensive set has both dancing on 2HKO's, but that favors Excadrill more since offensive Venusaur is more easily worn down.

That said, there 2 other mons important to a Sand team: Tyranitar and Hippowdon, both of whom Venusaur matches up quite well against.
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 170-204 (42.1 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 93-111 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- 16.1% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage (Support)
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 141-166 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage (Scarf)

Hippowdon I'm sure speaks for itself. Venusaur makes it unsafe for either of the Sand setters to enter, and even if they can take a hit to pivot to Excadrill they still jeopardize the match up if Venusaur hits Drill on the way in. That said, a decent Sand team probably has ways to keep the weather up and pivot Excadrill in when its time to sweep.


So what do I think is Venusaur's gain from this situation? Sand's Checks. Rotom-W (since Sand Rush is better than Mold Breaker for these teams), Azumarill, Breloom, an abundance of Rain mons in the case of other weather, and Lando-T are all checked pretty well by Venusaur's offensive tank set, and the more common Sand gets, the more common these mons get to prep for it. Heck, 2 of these mons are being discussed for a potential S-Rank. Venusaur even has potential on certain Sand teams to help them deal with these mons; I won't call it optimal, but it's an option worth noting for some teams depending on what Mega they're using (I don't know if Sand has "de facto" Megas the way Rain used Scizor, Manectric, or Heracross). There's even an argument of a bit of Synergy, since T-tar can do a bit to take Flying type attacks and Psychic moves, while Venusaur eats Grass, Fighting (big weakness for Sand there), Water, Bulky Grounds, and takes the strain off Excadrill as the Fairy Check. Venusaur also baits in the Latis for Pursuit Trapping, which can remove them Levitators and Hazard Removers, two things that are really great to deal with for an Excadrill sweep so it can spam its stronger Earthquake.


Venusaur isn't an answer to Sand, but whether on Sand or from outside he benefits pretty well from the rise of many of its common checks. Keep Venusaur in A.

 

[Subjugator]

I want some of whatever the dudes that think Venu should rise are having because I think it's godawful and should probs drop a lot sooner than rising.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean that they are under the influence of marijuana.

Anyways I agree with it staying in A Rank mostly because of what other users were saying, and I would also like to say that Mega Venusaur has the ability to work around some of its answers. For instance, if Mega Venu carries EQ it breaks past Heatran, if it carries Knock Off it can take the LO off of Latios upon the switch-in (guaranteed 2HKO even with no attack Investment and be able to stomach Psyshock better), knocking off the LO from Torn-T to survive Huricane and then put it to sleep or use Leech Seed, and killing Alakazam with Knock on the switch-in. I know that Mega Venusaur is far from perfect, but this is just my say on the matter.

 

[koista12]

Id like to make a new nomination:

Gyarados to B+ Rank

The metagame has evolved since Gyara last changed rank, and not to its improvement. The only sets which normal Gyara can really use in OU are the Sub-DD set and a lure set with Fire type Natural Gift. While they both have their merits as balance breakers, their less than satisfactory performance against offense really hurts gyarados in this meta, where almost every member of offense is able to threaten a 2HKO after rocks. Realistically, the only things Gyara can set up on are Ground types, Mega Scizor, Breloom, and Choice locked Water types (This last one is shaky; a Scald burn by Keldeo will ruin any chance Gyara has to sweep). And while Ill be the first admit that a +1/+1 Gyarados behind a sub is incredibly scary, its just not good enough anymore.

However, what I consider to be the main force behind my nomination is what happens when you compare Gyarados to the Pokemon in A- Rank and B+. Ask yourself, is Gyarados really as effective as things like Breloom and Mega Pinsir, or is it more comparable to good mons with solid niches like Mamoswine, Magnezone, and Tangrowth?

One great standard to measure Gyarados up against is Feraligatr currently chilling in B+ Rank. Gyarados definitely has a better typing to set up, but Feraligatr far outranks it power wise. A +1 Gyarados doesn't have a shot to OHKO standard Hippowdon, while +1 Feraligatr has a very good chance to do so after rocks. Feraligatr has superior coverage options in addition to higher attack: It can choose between beating out Slowbro, Mega Altaria, Garchomp, Latias, Starmie, and Ferrothorn with just two moves, while Gyarados either needs to use a piss weak Ice Fang or Natural Gift to have a shot against some of these pokemon.

 

[Subjugator]

Id like to make a new nomination:
Gyarados to A- Rank

Wait, I think you made a typo here. Gyarados is currently A- Rank as it stands, but it appears from your points that you are recommending Gyarados for B+ Rank. I'm pretty neutral to the change but I just wanted to let you know

 

[Samoyed]

Hey, um, first post on the VRs so please go easy on me. I'm just going to throw a nomination out there. Also I'm still not too good at competitive battling.

to B

Whilst Mega Pidgeot does not check any mons in particular, it is an excellent special wallbreaker that can confuse you with a 100% accurate STAB Hurricane, boast burn chances with Heat Wave, provide offensive Defog support, keep itself healthy with Roost, give you a very quick U-Turn, easily destroy an opponent's vital team member with Hyper Beam. Pidgeot can setup all over opposing walls with Work Up, and even though it has several weaknesses and hates the yellow magic, it is an excellent blanket check.

Quoting from the spotlight on Mega Pidgeot (even though it is UU)

"What makes Mega Pidgeot so dangerous is its ability to launch perfectly accurate Hurricanes with an impressive 135 base Special Attack stat. This means that any switch-in to Mega Pidgeot, besides taking substantial damage, also has a significant 30% chance of being confused. Additionally, if the switch-in is slower than Mega Pidgeot, then it will have to tank two Hurricanes before being able to retaliate, which means that the switch-in has 51% chance of being confused before it can even land a hit. As a consequence, defensive teams will find themselves put under tremendous pressure when facing Mega Pidgeot. Even dedicated special walls and Pokémon that resist Flying, which could otherwise sponge Hurricane relatively comfortably, can be broken past with a couple of self-inflicted hits of confusion damage."

One might find that Mega-Pidgeot is outclassed by Torn-T, but their only similarities are access to Hurricane, really. Torn-T is meant to be a mixed pivot, and it has an extensive movepool to do that, along with an ability that compliments that excellently. Pidgeot functions as a late game cleaner that has the ability to destroy many mons.

How well does it fare against S and A+? Let's find out!

Lots of spoilers

Zard X

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 238-282 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not too good. While Pidgeot outspeeds before DD, Zard OHKOs back even without boost.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 327-385 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Zard takes recoil from Flare Blitz and can't switch in on a Hurricane.

Fable

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Clefable can't really switch in, it can start setting up on Pidge and also take away almost all its utility with TWave. It can then proceed to 3HKO in return. However, Pidgeot wins if it has already Worked Up (once or twice, Clef might still win when once).
+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Sableye

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rupee: 186-219 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pidgeot 2HKOs Sableye whilst it does basically nothing. Knock Off and Foul Play are ineffective, and Refresh versions of Pidgeot will stop WoWisp.

MegaZam

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 198-234 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 174-205 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both 2HKO eachother, however Pidgeot outspeeds Zam and also OHKO with Hyper Beam, if it so chooses. It can also deal significant damage and switch out with U-Turn.
0- Atk Mega Pidgeot U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 140-166 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azumarill

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 321-378 (104.5 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pidgeot wins if Azumarill switches into a Hurricane, but otherwise Azumarill OHKOs back.
Pidgeot also loses to AVmarill.
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 150-177 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 214-253 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bisharp

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 294-346 (108.4 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega-Pidgeot wins here, HW OHKOs but Bisharp can only 2HKO in return.
252 Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 183-216 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Diancie

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 87-103 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
80- Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 372-438 (121.1 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pidgeot loses.

Excadrill

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 328-386 (90.8 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 289-341 (94.1 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Slightly tipped in Drill's favor if it is running Rock Slide. However, Pidgeot will always nail Drill if it takes switch-in damage. Drill wins in sand, however.

Ferrothorn

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 184-217 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
'Nuff said.

Garchomp

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
Mega Pidge wins against Chomp unless it carries Stone Edge.
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 262-310 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Heatran

Heatran doesn't do much to Pidgeot, but it completely walls it and Pidgeot's only option is to set up or switch out.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Hoopa

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Keldeo

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Lando-T

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Lopunny

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Latios

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Manphy

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Metagross

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Scizor

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Talonflame

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Thundurus

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Tornadus-Therian

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Weavile

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Quick low-ladder battle with a team I put together:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-324246186
Also, just to remind you, there are much better megas out there. I just think that B- is a bit too low for Pidgeot.

 

[MeaninglessTilting]

Hey, um, first post on the VRs so please go easy on me. I'm just going to throw a nomination out there-

to B

Whilst Mega Pidgeot does not check any mons in particular, it is an excellent special wallbreaker that can confuse you with a 100% accurate STAB Hurricane, boast burn chances with Heat Wave, provide offensive Defog support, keep itself healthy with Roost, give you a very quick U-Turn, easily destroy an opponent's vital team member with Hyper Beam. Pidgeot can setup all over opposing walls with Work Up, and even though it has several weaknesses and hates the yellow magic, it is an excellent blanket check.

Quoting from the spotlight on Mega Pidgeot (even though it is UU)

"What makes Mega Pidgeot so dangerous is its ability to launch perfectly accurate Hurricanes with an impressive 135 base Special Attack stat. This means that any switch-in to Mega Pidgeot, besides taking substantial damage, also has a significant 30% chance of being confused. Additionally, if the switch-in is slower than Mega Pidgeot, then it will have to tank two Hurricanes before being able to retaliate, which means that the switch-in has 51% chance of being confused before it can even land a hit. As a consequence, defensive teams will find themselves put under tremendous pressure when facing Mega Pidgeot. Even dedicated special walls and Pokémon that resist Flying, which could otherwise sponge Hurricane relatively comfortably, can be broken past with a couple of self-inflicted hits of confusion damage."

Whilst Mega-Pidgeot might find itself outclassed by Tornadus-Therian, especially defensively, it is able to differentiate itself from the flying genie by having one more immunity, a special attack stat that is 25 higher, access to setup, and a 100% accurate Hurricane. Even though Mega Pidgeot is covered by a lot of things, it can leave a stain on opposing teams and deserves higher than B-.
How well does it fare against S and A+? Let's find out!

Lots of spoilers

Zard X

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 238-282 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not too good. While Pidgeot outspeeds before DD, Zard OHKOs back even without boost.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 327-385 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Zard takes recoil from Flare Blitz and can't switch in on a Hurricane.

Fable

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Clefable can't really switch in, it can start setting up on Pidge and also take away almost all its utility with TWave. It can then proceed to 3HKO in return. However, Pidgeot wins if it has already Worked Up (once or twice, Clef might still win when once).
+2 252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Sableye

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rupee: 186-219 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pidgeot 2HKOs Sableye whilst it does basically nothing. Knock Off and Foul Play are ineffective, and Refresh versions of Pidgeot will stop WoWisp.

MegaZam

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 198-234 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 174-205 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both 2HKO eachother, however Timid Pidgeot outspeeds Zam and also OHKO with Hyper Beam, if it so chooses. It can also deal significant damage and switch out with U-Turn.
0- Atk Mega Pidgeot U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 140-166 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rest are coming soon, please wait 12 hours or so!

Azumarill

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Bisharp

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Diancie

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Excadrill

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Ferrothorn

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Garchomp

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Heatran

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Hoopa

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Keldeo

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Lando-T

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Lopunny

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Latios

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Manphy

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Metagross

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Scizor

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Talonflame

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Thundurus

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Tornadus-Therian

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Weavile

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Running modest would be a waste of Mega Pidgeot's speed tier, so all of those calcs at the start are kinda useless lol.

 

[jvl101993]

Hey, um, first post on the VRs so please go easy on me. I'm just going to throw a nomination out there-

to B

Whilst Mega Pidgeot does not check any mons in particular, it is an excellent special wallbreaker that can confuse you with a 100% accurate STAB Hurricane, boast burn chances with Heat Wave, provide offensive Defog support, keep itself healthy with Roost, give you a very quick U-Turn, easily destroy an opponent's vital team member with Hyper Beam. Pidgeot can setup all over opposing walls with Work Up, and even though it has several weaknesses and hates the yellow magic, it is an excellent blanket check.

Quoting from the spotlight on Mega Pidgeot (even though it is UU)

"What makes Mega Pidgeot so dangerous is its ability to launch perfectly accurate Hurricanes with an impressive 135 base Special Attack stat. This means that any switch-in to Mega Pidgeot, besides taking substantial damage, also has a significant 30% chance of being confused. Additionally, if the switch-in is slower than Mega Pidgeot, then it will have to tank two Hurricanes before being able to retaliate, which means that the switch-in has 51% chance of being confused before it can even land a hit. As a consequence, defensive teams will find themselves put under tremendous pressure when facing Mega Pidgeot. Even dedicated special walls and Pokémon that resist Flying, which could otherwise sponge Hurricane relatively comfortably, can be broken past with a couple of self-inflicted hits of confusion damage."

Whilst Mega-Pidgeot might find itself outclassed by Tornadus-Therian, especially defensively, it is able to differentiate itself from the flying genie by having one more immunity, a special attack stat that is 25 higher, access to setup, and a 100% accurate Hurricane. Even though Mega Pidgeot is covered by a lot of things, it can leave a stain on opposing teams and deserves higher than B-.
How well does it fare against S and A+? Let's find out!

Lots of spoilers

Zard X

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 238-282 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not too good. While Pidgeot outspeeds before DD, Zard OHKOs back even without boost.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 327-385 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Zard takes recoil from Flare Blitz and can't switch in on a Hurricane.

Fable

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Clefable can't really switch in, it can start setting up on Pidge and also take away almost all its utility with TWave. It can then proceed to 3HKO in return. However, Pidgeot wins if it has already Worked Up (once or twice, Clef might still win when once).
+2 252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Sableye

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rupee: 186-219 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pidgeot 2HKOs Sableye whilst it does basically nothing. Knock Off and Foul Play are ineffective, and Refresh versions of Pidgeot will stop WoWisp.

MegaZam

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 198-234 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 174-205 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both 2HKO eachother, however Timid Pidgeot outspeeds Zam and also OHKO with Hyper Beam, if it so chooses. It can also deal significant damage and switch out with U-Turn.
0- Atk Mega Pidgeot U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 140-166 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rest are coming soon, please wait 12 hours or so!

Azumarill

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Bisharp

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Diancie

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Excadrill

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Ferrothorn

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Garchomp

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Heatran

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Hoopa

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Keldeo

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Lando-T

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Lopunny

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Latios

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Manphy

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Metagross

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Scizor

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Talonflame

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Thundurus

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Tornadus-Therian

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Weavile

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I get that the Torn-T and Pidgeot comparisons are made because they're both Flying types that sit at 121 base speed, but really, the similarities almost all end there.

To your first point, you've essentially listed the entirety of Mega-Pidgeot's viable movepool. Torn-T's movepool makes it a much more versatile Pokemon, with it having access to Superpower, Icy Wind, Grass Knot, and Sludge Wave (though not all these moves see much usage). Torn-T's stat distribution also lets it go mixed, and unlike M-Pidgeot, Torn-T is played more as a pivot, rather than a cleaner. Yes, Mega-Pidgeot has more accurate Hurricanes and a way to boost, but Torn-T is better in the sense that it has access to Regenerator (which is so nice, and actually lets Torn-T use U-Turn well, while Pidgeot doesn't use it nearly as well), better overall stat distribution, and a much more versatile movepool, all without taking up a Mega slot, freeing you to use something else.

The 25 point advantage in base Special Attack isn't that significant, considering we're comparing a Mega and a non-Mega.

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 318-374 (88.5 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 254-300 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 335-398 (93.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Those are the standard spreads. Naturally, Mega Pidgeot's going to outmuscle something without max investment, but with Life Orb, standard Torn-T actually hits harder than Mega-Pidgeot. It's really hard to justify using it over Torn-T, since the differences aren't exactly enough to warrant it much, unless you're specifically needing a Special-attacking cleaning Mega on your team. Torn-T doesn't need much team support, as it's usually the one giving the team support, while Mega-Pidgeot tends to require a bit more to be effective. Not much has really changed in its favor in the meta for it to move up a rank either, in my opinion. With the meta's shift to offense, there's a lot of powerful priority around, as well as powerful Scarfers (Keldeo does 70% minimum with Scarf Hydro, which doesn't miss thanks to No Guard, so the roll is actually slightly in the Keldeo's favor after Rocks, assuming full health). Also, Electrics are really good in this meta, and M-Pidgeot isn't helping much against those (while Torn can switch out and regain health). I'd keep Mega-Pidgeot at B-, honestly.

EDIT: Also, yeah: you have to capitalize on M-Pidgeot's Speed tier: Modest isn't an option in this metagame (being outsped by Raikou, Specs Keld, Latis, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Starmie, etc. is just asking for trouble: at least you can just U-Turn out and get some damage, or bop them with an attack).

 

[Gotham Paladin]

S < A

As terrifying as this mon can be, I do not believe it is as good as it used to be. For starters, a big obvious problem this pokemon has is having to deal with stealth rocks. Now hazard removal is a momentum killer most of the time making it difficult to keep them off at times. And most teams are usually prepared for this pokemon. I have been seeing a sudden influx of lando t's lately making for a good check against this. And while the DD set can prove to be very powerful, it just seems like it cannot get a sweep off when your opponent knows what he/she is doing. I see this pokemon as a way to punch a big hole in your opponents team, making way for maybe another member to win for you. Yes, this pokemon is very good, but S rank? I do not think it deserves that rank based on the merits that it has, considering how vulnerable its typing can be.