Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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Hey, um, first post on the VRs so please go easy on me. I'm just going to throw a nomination out there-

to B

Whilst Mega Pidgeot does not check any mons in particular, it is an excellent special wallbreaker that can confuse you with a 100% accurate STAB Hurricane, boast burn chances with Heat Wave, provide offensive Defog support, keep itself healthy with Roost, give you a very quick U-Turn, easily destroy an opponent's vital team member with Hyper Beam. Pidgeot can setup all over opposing walls with Work Up, and even though it has several weaknesses and hates the yellow magic, it is an excellent blanket check.

Quoting from the spotlight on Mega Pidgeot (even though it is UU)

"What makes Mega Pidgeot so dangerous is its ability to launch perfectly accurate Hurricanes with an impressive 135 base Special Attack stat. This means that any switch-in to Mega Pidgeot, besides taking substantial damage, also has a significant 30% chance of being confused. Additionally, if the switch-in is slower than Mega Pidgeot, then it will have to tank two Hurricanes before being able to retaliate, which means that the switch-in has 51% chance of being confused before it can even land a hit. As a consequence, defensive teams will find themselves put under tremendous pressure when facing Mega Pidgeot. Even dedicated special walls and Pokémon that resist Flying, which could otherwise sponge Hurricane relatively comfortably, can be broken past with a couple of self-inflicted hits of confusion damage."

Whilst Mega-Pidgeot might find itself outclassed by Tornadus-Therian, especially defensively, it is able to differentiate itself from the flying genie by having one more immunity, a special attack stat that is 25 higher, access to setup, and a 100% accurate Hurricane. Even though Mega Pidgeot is covered by a lot of things, it can leave a stain on opposing teams and deserves higher than B-.
How well does it fare against S and A+? Let's find out!

252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 238-282 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not too good. While Pidgeot outspeeds before DD, Zard OHKOs back even without boost.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 327-385 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Zard takes recoil from Flare Blitz and can't switch in on a Hurricane.


252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Clefable can't really switch in, it can start setting up on Pidge and also take away almost all its utility with TWave. It can then proceed to 3HKO in return. However, Pidgeot wins if it has already Worked Up (once or twice, Clef might still win when once).
+2 252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rupee: 186-219 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pidgeot 2HKOs Sableye whilst it does basically nothing. Knock Off and Foul Play are ineffective, and Refresh versions of Pidgeot will stop WoWisp.


252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 198-234 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 174-205 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both 2HKO eachother, however Timid Pidgeot outspeeds Zam and also OHKO with Hyper Beam, if it so chooses. It can also deal significant damage and switch out with U-Turn.
0- Atk Mega Pidgeot U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 140-166 (55.7 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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I get that the Torn-T and Pidgeot comparisons are made because they're both Flying types that sit at 121 base speed, but really, the similarities almost all end there.

To your first point, you've essentially listed the entirety of Mega-Pidgeot's viable movepool. Torn-T's movepool makes it a much more versatile Pokemon, with it having access to Superpower, Icy Wind, Grass Knot, and Sludge Wave (though not all these moves see much usage). Torn-T's stat distribution also lets it go mixed, and unlike M-Pidgeot, Torn-T is played more as a pivot, rather than a cleaner. Yes, Mega-Pidgeot has more accurate Hurricanes and a way to boost, but Torn-T is better in the sense that it has access to Regenerator (which is so nice, and actually lets Torn-T use U-Turn well, while Pidgeot doesn't use it nearly as well), better overall stat distribution, and a much more versatile movepool, all without taking up a Mega slot, freeing you to use something else.

The 25 point advantage in base Special Attack isn't that significant, considering we're comparing a Mega and a non-Mega.

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 318-374 (88.5 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 254-300 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 335-398 (93.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Those are the standard spreads. Naturally, Mega Pidgeot's going to outmuscle something without max investment, but with Life Orb, standard Torn-T actually hits harder than Mega-Pidgeot. It's really hard to justify using it over Torn-T, since the differences aren't exactly enough to warrant it much, unless you're specifically needing a Special-attacking cleaning Mega on your team. Torn-T doesn't need much team support, as it's usually the one giving the team support, while Mega-Pidgeot tends to require a bit more to be effective. Not much has really changed in its favor in the meta for it to move up a rank either, in my opinion. With the meta's shift to offense, there's a lot of powerful priority around, as well as powerful Scarfers (Keldeo does 70% minimum with Scarf Hydro, which doesn't miss thanks to No Guard, so the roll is actually slightly in the Keldeo's favor after Rocks, assuming full health). Also, Electrics are really good in this meta, and M-Pidgeot isn't helping much against those (while Torn can switch out and regain health). I'd keep Mega-Pidgeot at B-, honestly.

EDIT: Also, yeah: you have to capitalize on M-Pidgeot's Speed tier: Modest isn't an option in this metagame (being outsped by Raikou, Specs Keld, Latis, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Starmie, etc. is just asking for trouble: at least you can just U-Turn out and get some damage, or bop them with an attack).
 
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S < A

As terrifying as this mon can be, I do not believe it is as good as it used to be. For starters, a big obvious problem this pokemon has is having to deal with stealth rocks. Now hazard removal is a momentum killer most of the time making it difficult to keep them off at times. And most teams are usually prepared for this pokemon. I have been seeing a sudden influx of lando t's lately making for a good check against this. And while the DD set can prove to be very powerful, it just seems like it cannot get a sweep off when your opponent knows what he/she is doing. I see this pokemon as a way to punch a big hole in your opponents team, making way for maybe another member to win for you. Yes, this pokemon is very good, but S rank? I do not think it deserves that rank based on the merits that it has, considering how vulnerable its typing can be.
 
Guys, don't compare Mega Pidgeot and Tornadus-T. Their similarities end at "fast special attacking Flying-type with access to Hurricane". Pidgeot is more of a balance breaker since it actually has a reliable Hurricane + access to Work Up to deal serious damage, and it also can use Hyper Beam to get past Electric-types, something Torn-T can't do.

Not sure if Pidgeot should rise but I wouldn't compare it to Torn-T.
 
i've used Mega Pidgeot and as a pivot.....it's really hard for it to pull its weight tbh (the set consisting of hurricane, heat wave, roost/hyper beam, uturn is very similar to tornadus-t). the fact that it can't recover health with regenerator (meaning stealth rock is a problem), takes up a mega slot, and needs to much support to do its job makes it really underwhelming. hurricane and heat wave aren't exactly colorful options (seriously game freak, give pidgeot a wider movepool). hyper beam is pretty cool though. its nice to smack rotom-w or something before you go down. unlike the genie with an attitude, pidgeot doesn't miss which is pretty swell, but its still hard to justify over tornadus as a pivot (doesnt hit as hard, difficulty switching into rocks)

the work up stallbreaker set bets your mega slot heavily on facing a bulkier build. against more offensive teams (isn't this the current trend), it'll be hard for it to do much besides spam weakish hurricane. considering its a mega, that's not something i'd want.

mega pidgeot is really niche, stallbreaker is has difficulty putting much work against offensive builds (underwhelming considering this is a mega), the pivot set is difficult to justify using over tornadus-t and any advantages like hyper beam and accurate hurricanes are small compared to the wider movepool, regenerator, and not taking up a mega slot that tornadus-t has. and heatran and tyranitar also hard-wall it (two very common pokemon).

because it requires too much support, is difficult to justify giving up your mega slot, and the fact that there are unfavorable meta trends for it, id say keep Pidgeot in B-
 
Guys, don't compare Mega Pidgeot and Tornadus-T. Their similarities end at "fast special attacking Flying-type with access to Hurricane". Pidgeot is more of a balance breaker since it actually has a reliable Hurricane + access to Work Up to deal serious damage, and it also can use Hyper Beam to get past Electric-types, something Torn-T can't do.

Not sure if Pidgeot should rise but I wouldn't compare it to Torn-T.
I mean, Mega Pidgeot is naturally going to be compared to Tornadus-T because it is the most similar Pokemon to it. Mega Pidgeot can do some things that Torn-T cannot do, but the real question is whether or not those things have really affected its viability of late. Torn-T is constantly being discussed because its available coverage supports its natural capabilities and makes it more difficult to deal with, regardless of whether or not you want it to rise. Mega Pidgeot's Work Up sets are more meant to take advantage of stall than balance, because most forms of offensive pressure give it difficulties setting up. Torn-T is more suited towards balance breaking, even with its accuracy issues, simply because most bulky Pokemon that can tank a Hurricane can be handled with Torn-T's available coverage options.

I have no opinion on either of these mons, but comparing the two is only going to be inevitable.
 
S < A

As terrifying as this mon can be, I do not believe it is as good as it used to be. For starters, a big obvious problem this pokemon has is having to deal with stealth rocks. Now hazard removal is a momentum killer most of the time making it difficult to keep them off at times. And most teams are usually prepared for this pokemon. I have been seeing a sudden influx of lando t's lately making for a good check against this. And while the DD set can prove to be very powerful, it just seems like it cannot get a sweep off when your opponent knows what he/she is doing. I see this pokemon as a way to punch a big hole in your opponents team, making way for maybe another member to win for you. Yes, this pokemon is very good, but S rank? I do not think it deserves that rank based on the merits that it has, considering how vulnerable its typing can be.
Lando-T can switch into this thing like one time.

Charizard X is easily S-rank in my opinion. Aside from the the potentially devastating Dragon Dance set, it has the other extremely viable Will-O-Wisp set and even Tailwind. To top it all off, you have to guess which Mega Charizard your opponent is even running to begin with (it's sometimes easy to tell from team preview but it's still not surefire).

It is weak to SR but it also has roost and Fire/Dragon is a great typing and is immune to burns.
 

Mega Pinsir -> A Rank
The last couple days I spend hours and hours to ladder with Mega Pinsir and he's fantastic. Aerilate STAB Return hits like a truck against anything that doesn't resist it. Pinsir has a good movepool as how he can KO pokemon that are supposed to check it. Close Combat, Earthquake and Stone Edge compared with a Sword Dance or Moxie boost is nothing to laugh about. I'm mostly suprised how strong Quick Attack is with Aerilate and STAB. I run Pinsir with Moxie to finish on weakend foes with Quick Attack and transform next turn or predict the switch and use Sword Dance to hit even stronger. With 120 Base Defense he can take a physical hit which is not super effective. With Moxie / Sword Dance he can basicly "counter" any Intimidate and 2HKO the User on the switch in. The argument that the Mega form is 4 times weak to Stealth Rocks isn't 100% true as it function more of a late game sweeper which come in once and kill everything till it dies. I had lot of games where it came in in the middle of a match killed one or two pokemon and switched out for a teammate which won me the game afterwards.
 

Martin

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I agree with the rise.

Honestly this meta is super kind to Pinsir. The adamant set in particular is really good atm for its raw power. Hyper Cutter variants are good atm too due to the omnipresence of PhysDef Lando and how it lures it due to it being one of the few consistent checks to Pinsir (the other being PhysDef Zapdos, which loses to SEdge Pinsir+MagneTrio squads) and can ensure no attack drops when it comes in to check, which it can use to remain at +2 despite Intim if it SDs before/on the turn it megas. There is just nothing that can reliably take this thing after a boost, so its ability to flat-out ignore Lando's Intimidate when setting up is a really useful asset for guaranteeing a clean - especially considering that Lando is no. 1 in usage right now. This 'mon is unique in that it poses as a massive threat to all common playstyles with one core set, and the trend of increasing Venu/Amoong/Tangrowth usage is really big considering that it is so threatening to all of these Pokemon and that it uses them as setup fodder due to sane people not staying in. Flying is in general really good rn due to an increase in grounds, an increase in grasses to beat said grounds and a decrease in electrics who are scared off by these grass/ground types.
 

Mega Pinsir -> A Rank
The last couple days I spend hours and hours to ladder with Mega Pinsir and he's fantastic. Aerilate STAB Return hits like a truck against anything that doesn't resist it. Pinsir has a good movepool as how he can KO pokemon that are supposed to check it. Close Combat, Earthquake and Stone Edge compared with a Sword Dance or Moxie boost is nothing to laugh about. I'm mostly suprised how strong Quick Attack is with Aerilate and STAB. I run Pinsir with Moxie to finish on weakend foes with Quick Attack and transform next turn or predict the switch and use Sword Dance to hit even stronger. With 120 Base Defense he can take a physical hit which is not super effective. With Moxie / Sword Dance he can basicly "counter" any Intimidate and 2HKO the User on the switch in. The argument that the Mega form is 4 times weak to Stealth Rocks isn't 100% true as it function more of a late game sweeper which come in once and kill everything till it dies. I had lot of games where it came in in the middle of a match killed one or two pokemon and switched out for a teammate which won me the game afterwards.
I don't really agree with this. Honestly i don't think anythings really changed for mega pinsir. Its still a huge threat to several teams but i don't think its actually gotten better to the point where it should rise up. Also Moxie Mega pinsir is generally inferior to Hyper cutter because well you gotta make something really weak just for it to be within the range and a unstabed, unboosted quick attack in base forms really weak(not to mention situational). Hyper cutters just better period because you ignore intimidate. Its a really good wallbreaker but i don't think it should rise. On top of this tyranitars really common right now and is often carrying a choice scarf/chople berry both of which can really screw over a mega pinsir.
 
I don't really agree with this. Honestly i don't think anythings really changed for mega pinsir. Its still a huge threat to several teams but i don't think its actually gotten better to the point where it should rise up. Also Moxie Mega pinsir is generally inferior to Hyper cutter because well you gotta make something really weak just for it to be within the range and a unstabed, unboosted quick attack in base forms really weak(not to mention situational). Hyper cutters just better period because you ignore intimidate. Its a really good wallbreaker but i don't think it should rise. On top of this tyranitars really common right now and is often carrying a choice scarf/chople berry both of which can really screw over a mega pinsir.
If Tyranitar is at full health against your Mega Pinsir you're doing something wrong. You have 5 other Pokemon which can handle Scarf Tyranitar. I'm not saying that the Moxie Boost happened every battle and I'm not weakening something just that Pinsir gets the boost. It's situational yes but it happens a lot. Hyper Cutter is only pre Mega relevant where Moxie last until I switch. Moxie Pinsir is only late game a thing where your active Pokemon hitted before it died. I wouldn't see it as a wallbreaker more then a late game sweeper.
 
If Tyranitar is at full health against your Mega Pinsir you're doing something wrong. You have 5 other Pokemon which can handle Scarf Tyranitar. I'm not saying that the Moxie Boost happened every battle and I'm not weakening something just that Pinsir gets the boost. It's situational yes but it happens a lot. Hyper Cutter is only pre Mega relevant where Moxie last until I switch. Moxie Pinsir is only late game a thing where your active Pokemon hitted before it died. I wouldn't see it as a wallbreaker more then a late game sweeper.
That goes for every pokemon. A good player will preserve said pokemon. Not to mention that Sandbuilds are on almost every team/very common now. Mega pinsirs got a pretty bad matchup vs sand builds because of Chople/scarf tar+exca. Rocky landots also everywhere and is the most common set next to double dance. Also Somthing i forgot to bring up regarding chople tar+mega pinsir is that you cant even nail ttar with a cc which means your mega pinsir probably cant clean until like late game. Even then most good teams pack or at least should pack two flying checks or will naturally have them. (think Rocky landot+scarf tar for example) The reason why most teams will have at least two flying checks is more because of torn-t rather then mega pinsir. Scarf rachi is another pokemon commonly seen on offense now which can revenge mega pinsir or force you to quick attack. (regardless m pinsir probably wont win that fight) There are so many reasons why mega pinsir shouldn't go up to begin with. Mega pinsirs decent on the ladder but requires you most times to use magnezone which is rather constricting on teambuilding. Not only this but you need 2-3 more ways just to help out mega pinsir which again restricts building.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Talked with bludz about this yesterday and some other times too that the lower ranks (C / C- / D) are so outdated that you might as well remove them because they completely misrepresent the viability of some pokemon down there.

Before you start countering my arguments, think to yourself: have I actually ever used this pokemon? If your answer is no: don't waste your time making a post please.
D -> C
So first we look at the C rank and we see 4 Ghost type pokemon (Mega Banette, Gourgeist-Super, Hoopa-C and Cofagrigus), two of which are C because they were just put in C but after that nobody ever took the time to use it (talking about banette and hoopa ftr). Meanwhile, you have 2 Ghost type pokemon in D rank called Jellicent and Chandelure who are clearly way more viable than both Mega Banette and Hoopa-C. I talked about Jellicent a few months ago but apparently the thing is still deemed less viable than crap like Mega Absol for some reason.
To make things clear from the start I'm not saying Chandelure is some amazing B-rank worthy pokemon but it's definitely more viable than Hoopa-C.
Specs really isn't that good so I won't focus on that but on the other hand we have SubCM, which destroys defensive teams and Scarf, which destroys offensive teams. Despite its low bulk, Chandelure can set subs against pokemon like Jirachi, Mega Venu, Zard-Y, Chansey, Clefable and Cobalion. SubCM simply destroys stall because it can protect itself from status, beats both Unaware users and has the coverage to break through walls such as Cresselia, Mega Sableye and Chansey at the same time. Even against offensive teams Chandelure still shows it worth because it can switch in against common offensive pokemon like Jirachi and Zard-Y and fire off a powerful Shadow Ball or Fire Blast where offensive teams do not have any switchins for. It's definitely not as useful against offensive as against balance or stall, but it can still put in some work in 1v1 situations against for example Heatran. Using CM let you survive Earth Power even after you have taken Stealth Rock damage and after that you can weaken Heatran to +/- 30% of its health, which gives pokemon such as Serperior and Talonflame the possibility to break it late game. Against SpDtran it's even funnier because it can either not touch you, or it will fail to 2hko you with Earth Power.
Scarf is a set I didn't use myself but I've seen Tentacruel<3 play with it and it simply destroys offensive teams. He used it a couple of times against my offense and the only pokemon offense can throw at it is Tyranitar (both Tankchomp and Azu are excellent checks but they do not switch in very well multiple times). Even reasonably bulky pokemon such as AV Tornadus-T and Keldeo are 2HKO'd by Chandelure. As said before, Chandelure is not limited to switch in on a free switch (voltturn / revengekill) but it can also check offensive pokemon like Scizor and Mega Gardevoir.
One cool thing about Chandelure that Hoopa-C doesn't have is the fact that it can work nearly every match. SubCM / SubNP Hoopa-C destroys stall but is so bad against offensive that you might as well sac it in the first 10 turns of the match. Faster sets such as scarf are not only outclassed by Hoopa-U, but also fail to break through common defensive cores because it lacks the power / the setup. Meanwhile, Chandelure's scarf set still has utility against defensive cores because of the awesome coverage and Trick to cripple walls such as Chansey.
I would love to see more arguments against Chandelure's rise other than: Tyranitar exists. I'm not saying it's like really good or anything but you have 4 ghost type mons in C rank and Chandelure is clearly better than them.

Also drop Mega Absol, Mega Latios, Haxorus, Forretress and Hoopa-C. They're awful.
 

A>>>A+

When you look at Gyarados, he might remind you of just your average set up sweeper. However, I think he has quite a bit of niche that put him above the rest, such as dragonite and Altaria. To begin, he does not have the glaring ice weakness most other DD users have, and If you can predict correctly as to when to unleash his mega evolution, you could get up a dragon dance taking minimal damage, as regular Gyarados resists fighting and is neutral when taking grass type attacks. Next, his ability intimate allows him to switch into many physical threats such as talon flame and almost neutralize them from dealing any damage to Gyarados. You then click dragon dance on their most likely switch, and proceed to sweep. However, you obviously hold back on this until its checks have been weakened or are fainted. at +1 speed gyarados outspends many electric types that might threaten it such as Raikou, Zapdos and Heliolisk. To add on to this, the fact that your opponent never knows whether you carry ice fang or earthquake can cause them trouble if they are unsure of whether or not they check you with certain pokemon. For example, if you carry earthquake you can hit pokemon such as defensive heat ran harder, but if you carry Ice fang you can easily OhKO mons such as dragonite, even with multi scale, Garchomp and Landorus-T. To round all this up, he has a solid attack stat and very nice defensive capabilities. These are all the reasons I believe mega Gyarados should be moved to A+.

 

bludz

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Update time. Torn-T has gone to S rank probably months late but its finally here. Lando-T remains A+.

Moves:
Charizard (Mega-X): S -> A+
Sableye (Mega): S -> A+
Keldeo: A+ -> S
Tornadus-T: A+ -> S
Hippowdon: A -> A-
Amoonguss: B -> B+
Gastrodon: B -> B+
Tyranitar (Mega): B -> B-
Hawlucha: B -> B-
Chesnaught: B- -> C+
Tyrantrum: B- -> C+
Latios (Mega): C -> D

Discussion:
Gyarados (Mega): A -> A-
Kyurem-Black: A -> A-
Manectric (Mega): A -> A-
Breloom: A- -> A
Starmie: A- -> A
Jirachi: A- -> A
Aerodactyl (Mega): A- > B+
Latias (Mega): B+ -> A-
Sharpedo (Mega): B -> B-
Crawdaunt: B- -> B

Gonna update the OP with these now.

Regarding a lower rank cleanup (C+ and below) which SketchUp referred to, it will mostly be handled by the ranking team. We've tried to avoid too much discussion on lower ranked mons specifically because peoples' experience with them tends to be limited and this leads to theorymoning and whatnot. Key mons may be brought up as discussion points as we go and I'll be trying out pokemon which I think may not belong in their current rank so I can gain a greater understanding of their viability.

PS: I know some discussion points are overlapping from the last time round, that just means they're really being considered. If you want some lower rank stuff to potentially discuss then stuff like Jellicent and Zygarde rising are fine discussion points.
 
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r0ady

We can start with a light
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Empoleon to B/B+

mainly for this set:
Empoleon @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock / Defog
- Flash Cannon / Grass Knot

Empoleon serves as a fantastic check to the mono flying talons that are found every where, and unlike the likes of lando and ttar, it isnt rendered useless after being burned on the switch then bulked up on. Its typing allows it to be a pretty good rocker, getting them up on clef, flame, tornadus, heatran, latis, altaria, skarmory, Hippo, klefki, jirachi, and starmie just looking in A rank, while shuca allows it to survive and kill of threats such as lando, gliscor, and excadrill. Ive been finding decent success with this set and encourage you all to give it a chance n_n

252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 320-380 (89.1 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 240-283 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Empoleon: 198-234 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 468-552 (146.7 - 173%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 136-161 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 161-189 (44.4 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 248-294 (85.2 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

SJCrew

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Pity about Lando-T. That's the one I felt strongest about. On top of that, I just watched a match where Double Dance handily swept in SPL. Hmm. We'll need to revisit that one.

Other thoughts:

- Yeah, send Jirachi to A. Corner stone of countless offensive teams with its awesome Scarf set. Faster than Scarf Lando-T and a secondary Latios switch-in for offense. Weavile check (don't switch directly in LOL). Healing Wish support. Endgame cleaner. These are all the things you want your Scarfer to do in the lategame. Even with all of these (+) traits, the major (-) is that it is easy to neutralize with the likes of Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Rocky Helm Chomp in the early game. Helm Lando-T not so much, since it's worn down easily with SR damage.

- Crawdaunt can be as ridiculous as Hoopa-U if you let it in, despite needing a whole lot more support to smash things. There are a good enough number of slower 'mons for it to get in and threaten, and if your opponent lets Keldeo come in on Knock Off, they may as well have lost the game then and there. Outside of that sweet, sweet STAB Aqua Jet giving it utility vs. offense, the biggest thing for me is that your opponent cannot depend on Pursuit to trap it. This is huge vs. stall, where some teams have adopted ScarfTar in order to not lose 6-0 to Hoopa-U. This is one of the biggest punishments for slower teams in OU. It's worth B.
 
Breloom A- to A

This monster is really good right now. I think that just because of sand becoming a TON more used lately this guy deserves a raise.

Brelooms job is to be a wall breaker and sand counter, yes its a counter. It beats every facet of common sand cores so much so that you are forced to run a counter of your own normally. What if I told you that brelooms had a certain degree of versatility to beat common stops. Natural gift is a wonderful way to lure those pesky venusaurs and amoonguss. Talonflame got you down? Well rock tomb fixes that as you nail it on the switch.

Completely removing a pokemon from the game is stupid valuable. Spore is arguably its main draw, to make sure even if it has a terrible match up its still doing something.

Brelooms has some common checks like lando, latios, torn and grasses, but it can just put those to sleep or try and break them or create an opportunity. Using things like your own sand will help these weaknesses by a ton.

On mobile so bear with me.
 
Jirachi A- -> A

Agreed. Jirachi's biggest ticket in this meta is his Choice Scarf set which works wonders in this meta threatening Fairies such as Clefable and Mega Gardevoir and outspeeding threats like Latios and Weavile (Do not switch Rachi into this monster like SJCrew said). As a Healing Wisher, Jirachi does the job MUCH better than Latias does with its better defensive typing and ability to create momentum with U-Turn. Send Jirachi to A.


Gyarados (Mega) A -> A-

Having a tough time thinking about this one. With a Dragon Dance under its belt and access to Mold Breaker, Mega Gyarados has the ability to serve as a great late game sweeper. Water + Dark STAB is excellent offensively with your main switch ins being Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur (if it's lacking Ice Fang) and defensive variants of Mega Altaria. Problem is, Base 81 speed isn't that fast and it's pretty heavily reliant on boosting with Dragon Dance to outpace most of the meta. Choice Scarf Keldeo resists both STABs and deals a significant amount of damage with Secret Sword. It has to run Jolly to outpace Mega Manectric & Mega Lopunny at +1 who can dispatch Adamant variants (but they can't switch in). Electric types such as Mega Manectric, Thundurus-I, and Raikou are still very common in the tier and can outspeed and threaten it without any boosts. And then there are the fighting types of the tier such as Mega Lopunny, Keldeo, & Breloom that have the ability to ruin Mega Gyarados with their speed (Mach Punch in Breloom's case) and super effective attacks. As a Dragon Dancer, Mega Gyarados is outclassed by Mega Charizard X who boasts a higher attack stat (factoring in Tough Claws) and Mega Altaria who has a better overall typing and movepool to work with. These factors are why Mega Gyarados is being suggested to drop to A-, but Mega Gyarados is still a force to be reckoned with in the tier.
 
Idk why someone's noming empoleon lol. That things not worth b+ for the life of it. Shouldent rise period.

Breloom:


Anyways Breloom should without a doubt rise. This things really good against sand which is super common now which is something i mentioned in my last post. Combined with the fact it gets the ever so lovely spore temporarily disabling a pokemon for most of the game is really nice. This leads to breloom causing more pressure to teams like LO focus punch or grabbing a free sd on somthing that wants to be sleep fauder but loses to breloom. Just so most of you guys know LO focus punch from a breloom is absolutely stupid powerful Doing massive damage to some of the more common breloom switch ins which can be really useful. Just a few calcs of LO focus punch vs torn-t/latios:

252 Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 191-226 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 211-248 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 84-100 (28 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 211-248 (63.5 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 84-100 (26 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see here Focus punch breloom (most notable in Adamant loom) Can actually 2hko latios after stealth rock damage with focus punch + Mach punch. This is really nice as latios resists both of brelooms stabs so luring it in with focus punch is fantastic. Aside from that Brelooms great at threatening sand builds because of how both exca/ttar AND hippowdon are weak to grass/fighting which makes breloom a great offensive check to sand balance and offense. SD brelooms also a pretty big threat as well but is walled much easier because of no focus punch to punish switch ins. Breloom does have a underrated stallbreaker set but almost nobody uses that so not worth mentioning. Overall brelooms just a massive threat currently and should definitely rise.

Jirachi:


honestly as much as id like to go over Subtoxic and mixrachi which are by far my favourite sets Scarf rachi is jirachi's best set. Its overall a nice glue for offense teams checking stuff like keldeo,lop,m pinsir,malt. Also gets healing wish and is in my eyes the best hw user in the tier currently as latias is mediocre currently. Thanks to serene grace boosted heart stamp and iron head jirachi makes for a very effective cleaner even if its luck reliant in some cases. Nice offensive glue/cleaner/fairy check should rise.

Also....

#SaveMegaGyarados


im pretty sure as most of my freinds on smogon know im a pretty big fan of mega gyarados. This things really underated as a stallbreaker and i feel like it shouldent really drop. The reason for this is because nobody prepares for this thing. Seriously ive found that many teams are really weak to mega gyarados and with the rise of stuff like gastrodon,jelicent? and other fat water types gyara's sub dd set is just fantastic right now. Hell 3 atks is also really solid. I dont think this thing should drop because of how good it matches up with some of the more fatter teams roaming around. With that said Mega gyarados should stay where it is. Also to the person noming gyara for A+ mega gyarados not a top tier mega lol. Its good but not that good.

Edit: Happy AM and m00ns? i made the mons less ass.

AM Edit: Martin Lawrence
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Keldeo going to S (which I think is the right choice btw), makes a Jellicent rise a given. Not a whole lot to say honestly.

Discussion:

So I really feel like you guys overrate Brelooms effectiveness a little too much, this is coming from one of the guys that has used Breloom A LOT. There's a lot of teams that are unprepared for it mostly due to the over reliance of things Latios and having like one check to handle it most times. Fitting a couple of checks or ways to handle Breloom isn't really as difficult as say, putting in checks to M-Garde or Char-Y where half the time you half to revenge them or use somewhat crappy means like trapping with Ttar getting into these 50/50s of whether to pursuit to remove it or not. Fyi this is more from the perspective of balance or something like sand balance fighting a Char-Y most times. Amoonguss being a staple on a bunch of balances like those sand balances right now nurtures Breloom a lot because it requires you to stack up Spikes or use something pretty niche like a SD Lanset Berry set to ever break it. The two main sets in Life Orb Focus Punch and SD have their own fair share of issues where you need to build on team support to cover it. For example the Focus Punch variant has a somewhat garbage matchup against offenses because its power limit only goes as far as Life Orb + Adamant nature where as the SD variant is always going to have issues taking down fatter builds that can stomach a hit as opposed to Focus Punch. There's also scenarios after it Spores something, and usually there's something useless on a team where getting it Spored isn't an issue, where it's totally forced out if you don't make the right move. The moment something like Gengar comes in (which is good btw! people should use it more), Torn-T who kind of just doesnt even care about the SD variant, Mega Latias who has seen a good spike in usage in tour games. I don't really see where Breloom exhibits a team constraint on the level of a good amount of A ranked mons or even effectiveness like Tyranitar who pursuit traps so many things while supporting such a brainless mon in Excadrill, providing great team synergy to almost any team due to its increased variety and potential in how you utilize it. I'm only speaking on the non Sash sets because I think the Sash set is pretty garbage and isnt a good tell to where Breloom normally shines. There's a lot more means to handle Breloom than what people are giving it credit for that should be explored before just throwing it up any higher putting it on the same level as things like Slowbro, Skarmory, and Tyranitar.

I think Starmie is kind of mediocre honestly and I'm not feeling the idea that it's a good candidate to go up just looking at what occupies those rankings. The defensive set is still mediocre, the offensive set is always put on a timer and prone to being forced out, and the concept of it being a spinner I think is ok in the sense that you might want to pair it up with something like Zard-X which necessitates that Hazard removal over something like Latios based on team synergy you want, and that's enough minus all the other details to keep it in A- . I'm not sure where Starmie has gotten better to require a move up even for the sake of discussion because a lot of teams are forgoing hazard removal on their offenses and typical teams to capitalize on offensive momentum and hazards where the necessity of that tool isn't always warranted. I guess Keldeo rising is a good reason that someone might point out but considering that offensive barely stomachs a Specs attack from Keld and it's so common to see Keldeo run a hidden power to catch Starmies, which happen easily btw, wouldnt make me inclined to move it up.

Latias Mega should definitely be A-. The boltbeam Twave set is simply great and there are other options like Reflect Type to nurture would be means of handling it. Assuming that the user isn't playing like total ass it's gonna put in a lot of work in those hazard balances that you'll normally find it. A rank mons are normally where you want to start taking into account in the teambuilding phase of handling them reliably and M-Latias I think should be represented as something you should prep for more.

M-Manectric is one of those brainless mons people like to use but the prevalence of sand really sucks for it and I think it gets way more hype about being this great mon than it should be. I guess it's w/e no strong opinion on that since you'll have a good group of people having the "electrics are so good" sensation and use that as the foundation of why it shouldn't drop. Then again it's a bit better than some of the A- but to me along with M-Cham it's one of the weaker A rank mons but we do things alphabetically here (thank god or whoever you believe in, I believe in Dilwar) so whatever most people are cool with seems ok.

Empoleon to B/B+

mainly for this set:
Empoleon @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock / Defog
- Flash Cannon / Grass Knot

Empoleon serves as a fantastic check to the mono flying talons that are found every where, and unlike the likes of lando and ttar, it isnt rendered useless after being burned on the switch then bulked up on. Its typing allows it to be a pretty good rocker, getting them up on clef, flame, tornadus, heatran, latis, altaria, skarmory, Hippo, klefki, jirachi, and starmie just looking in A rank, while shuca allows it to survive and kill of threats such as lando, gliscor, and excadrill. Ive been finding decent success with this set and encourage you all to give it a chance n_n

252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 320-380 (89.1 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 240-283 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Empoleon: 198-234 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 468-552 (146.7 - 173%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 136-161 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 161-189 (44.4 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 248-294 (85.2 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It's ironic I'm not advocating for Loom to go up because Loom and Magnezone is an example of just a few of why Emp shouldn't move up. It's actually kind of garbage but it gets away with pulling off an ok shuca / chople berry set while being a switch in to the dual STAB Lati sets running Defog. I guess it's ok that it does all those things you say but seeing as how half the list you put is mediocre, such as Hippo, or it's stuff where it first needs to come in freely but it never will switch into much using the offensive variant, I don't see how it's on equal footing to some stuff like Crawdaunt or Amoonguss. It's also kind of sad that it's fodder for a lot in the tier these days. The 4mss argument that is thrown around a lot is normally used in a pretty terrible context but Empoleon as far as the berry resist sets go is one of those mons where the meaning is applicable. There's a bunch of things that it wants to run in order to break half of the switch ins to it like HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Grass Knot for M-Bro and defensive Waters, will practically do nothing to a Keldeo in most matches and I don't see how it has gotten any better. It's more of a C+ ranked mon to me when you deflate all the stuff that occupies these mid ranks into something more reasonable that takes into account relevant stuff but that's a discussion for another timeframe that isn't relative to the discussion points. It's fine in B- for now.

I have my own opinions about the other stuff but for now that's all I'll say and maybe I'll touch upon the other stuff later depending on what I read.

TLDR we're in the 21st century so I guess this is needed cause people don't read or can't comprehend more than 3 sentences.

Breloom raise No, Starmie raise no, Latias Mega raise yes, Empoleon raise no, Mega Manectric drop more yes but ok with whatever.
 

Martin

Smogon's #1 Wobbuffet+Alolan Vulpix+Stunfisk Fan
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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Honestly I'm gonna advocate for a jelly rise cause of current trends making it better. I've used iit a
lot (prolly more than 90% of people here tbh) and I really like it. It is able to spinblock the only really relevant spinner (Starmie) consistently due to Water Absorb and its great special bulk, and the rise in use of Keldeo means that it's niche as the one of most consistent non-mega stops (behind maybe Amoonguss) is very valuable. Its ability to act as a Scald absorber is really valuable for balanced/defensive builds, and it is argubly the best spinblocker for fatter Spikes builds. Honestly this 'mon benefits from a meta where offensive waters are becoming more powerful, and the meta is shifting that way due to the abundance of fat grounds.

As for Starmie, I'm kinda neutral on it with a slight upward lean although I don't really like how people cast off Recover+3 attacks so readily 'cause imo it is its best set rn due to its improved longevity and the fact that defensive spinners like Tentacruel and defoggers tend to get more mileage as hazard removers - in addition to offense generally not being too reliant on hazard removal unlike balance. Hell, 4 attacks is also super under-prepped for if you don't mind having a max of eleven attacks. If anything, 4 attacks may overtake Recover if the meta gets even slightly more offensive due to the fact that it very rarely uses more than six or seven attacks before dying anyway.
 

Vertex

my beautiful dark twisted curry
anyone have any problems with normal alakazam rising up one subrank?

fighting types are just stupid right now, breloom all over, and hidden power [ice] alakazam is some underrated crap man. kill tank chomps and landorus-ts for free which is great in this physical metagame. hidden power [fire], knock off, and sash sets are good as always. such a great wallbreaker right now that can rip through teams with ease now that people have been using less tornadus-t (which isn't a long term check btw). psyshock is great if you have grass knot on the same set. really cool 'mon that warrants a rise imo.
 
Honestly I'm gonna advocate for a jelly rise cause of current trends making it better. I've used iit a
lot (prolly more than 90% of people here tbh) and I really like it. It is able to spinblock the only really relevant spinner (Starmie) consistently due to Water Absorb and its great special bulk, and the rise in use of Keldeo means that it's niche as the one of most consistent non-mega stops (behind maybe Amoonguss) is very valuable. Its ability to act as a Scald absorber is really valuable for balanced/defensive builds, and it is argubly the best spinblocker for fatter Spikes builds. Honestly this 'mon benefits from a meta where offensive waters are becoming more powerful, and the meta is shifting that way due to the abundance of fat grounds.

As for Starmie, I'm kinda neutral on it with a slight upward lean although I don't really like how people cast off Recover+3 attacks so readily 'cause imo it is its best set rn due to its improved longevity and the fact that defensive spinners like Tentacruel and defoggers tend to get more mileage as hazard removers - in addition to offense generally not being too reliant on hazard removal unlike balance. Hell, 4 attacks is also super under-prepped for if you don't mind having a max of eleven attacks. If anything, 4 attacks may overtake Recover if the meta gets even slightly more offensive due to the fact that it very rarely uses more than six or seven attacks before dying anyway.
Just to add on to the spinblocking aspect of Jelly; the other relevant spinner is Excadrill. While Jelly isn't necessarily bad against excadrill, it doesn't really want to switch in on it either taking: 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 321-380 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I agree that Jellicent is improving in the meta, but let's not overhype it now. If you put Jelly on your team, it's for checking Keldeo first and foremost and you get the slight added bonus of spinblocking Starmie and maybe spinblocking Excadrill in extreme circumstances. I'd say this warrants a rise to maybe C- or C at the most in this Keldeo infested meta.
 
Just gonna be blunt and say, Kyurem-Black should not be moved down at all but rather stay at its current rank of A. Despite its weakness to Stealth Rocks and its rather lackluster defensive typing Kyurem-Black as a whole is an utter monster. Ranging from its amaizng mixed 170/120/95 offensive stats to its honestly stellar bulk of 125/100/90 I can not see how we can justify a drop in anyway. It is extremely hard to switch into and can run several sets that massively shift the role it plays from its standard LO roost +3, Scarfed or heck even Banded sets or sub-kyurem-blacks.
 

Martin

Smogon's #1 Wobbuffet+Alolan Vulpix+Stunfisk Fan
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Just to add on to the spinblocking aspect of Jelly; the other relevant spinner is Excadrill. While Jelly isn't necessarily bad against excadrill, it doesn't really want to switch in on it either taking: 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 321-380 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I agree that Jellicent is improving in the meta, but let's not overhype it now. If you put Jelly on your team, it's for checking Keldeo first and foremost and you get the slight added bonus of spinblocking Starmie and maybe spinblocking Excadrill in extreme circumstances. I'd say this warrants a rise to maybe C- or C at the most in this Keldeo infested meta.
Honestly I think that Exca is a really crappy spinner and that if you reach a point where you need it to spin your team prolly has other problems that need sorting before hazard removal, but yeah I think C is where it should be. It was more me saying "D is certainly too low for this thing" than anything, and it seemed appropriate to post about it given the timing. Just thought I'd clear that up :mad:
 
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