ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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ZoroarkForever I agree with your points about Flygon, for the most part (I won't discuss where it should be, exactly. That's not the point of this post), except for the "very strong Arceus-Rock check" part. That's debatable, beause if you run Earthquake, you can easily get burned by Groudon-Primal's Lava Plume one of the myriad of times you will switch into it and if you run Earth Power (which makes it so you don't care about burns), you can't check Calm Mind / Refresh Arceus-Rock. So, yes, you can absolutely switch into Arceus-Rock, but if it's Calm Mind / Refresh (and quite a few of them are), you can run into the problems I mentioned above. About it being a double dance Groudon-Primal and Arceus-Ground check; I absolutely agree.

Just a couple quick calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Flygon: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Flygon: 85-101 (23.4 - 27.8%) -- 78.7% chance to 4HKO
 
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So have some noms.
Genesect to D

Basically useless. It's like regular Kyogre in that it has potential utility in a Choice Scarf set but who would ever bother.

Arceus-Steel to D

Harsh, but I honestly can't see what niche this thing has. All of the S ranked mons have ways to 2HKO it at worst(and is weak to both of GeoXern's common Steel-specific coverage moves to boot), mediocre STAB it can't use well(even stuff like Lucario has Bullet Punch, which actually works against a set up GeoXern due to priority), weak to very common coverage, doesn't provide nearly the amount of utility Steels like Jirachi and Zong do...it flat out sucks against anything that isn't a defensive mon such as Lugia or slower Xerneas. To top it all off, it's literally sitting at the bottom of C-. You could drop it to D and lose nothing.

Kyurem-W to C

Seeing as it and Palkia are on some opposite ends of a spectrum I think it's logical they share a rank. Palkia's a somewhat fast attacker with a decent defensive typing at the cost og both STAB moves unfortunately having immunities while Kyurem-W is a slow, more powerful attacker with an arguably better STAB(one with no immunities) but with a worse defensive typing. Pick your poison.
 
Flying Arceus should be at the bottom of C- and Steel Arceus should not drop to D. Unfortunately for Flying Arceus, Mega Salamence completely outclasses it as a Flying-type in almost every capacity and Dark Arceus, which is shit anyway, outclasses it as a 'stallbreaker'. It is almost a complete waste of an Arceus forme. At least Steel Arceus has the use of being a somewhat bulky Steel-type that can dent Xerneas and not get smashed by every neutral hit like Mega Lucario. It also totally walls Lugia, which is one of the pre-eminent defensive Pokemon of this metagame, and can annoy support Arceus formes, like Water Arceus, if it chooses to run Recover over Stone Edge on its Swords Dance set. Toxic immunity is also pretty nice.
 
Steel Arceus is fine in C-, and is probably one of the "better" Pokemon there. It's an adequate Dragon resist and secondary or tertiary Xerneas check for really offensive teams that can afford to drop the Arceus slot normally dedicated to Extreme Killer. Iron Head + Earthquake is pretty good coverage in this metagame, and because you have a decent chance to keep SR up if using heavy offense you don't really need to run Stone Edge. SD Steelceus is very niche and hard to justify 99% of the time but I find it to be borderline usable...unlike complete garbage like Mega Mawile or Flyceus.
 
squidlick said:
So have some noms.
Genesect to D

Basically useless. It's like regular Kyogre in that it has potential utility in a Choice Scarf set but who would ever bother.

Arceus-Steel to D

Harsh, but I honestly can't see what niche this thing has. All of the S ranked mons have ways to 2HKO it at worst(and is weak to both of GeoXern's common Steel-specific coverage moves to boot), mediocre STAB it can't use well(even stuff like Lucario has Bullet Punch, which actually works against a set up GeoXern due to priority), weak to very common coverage, doesn't provide nearly the amount of utility Steels like Jirachi and Zong do...it flat out sucks against anything that isn't a defensive mon such as Lugia or slower Xerneas. To top it all off, it's literally sitting at the bottom of C-. You could drop it to D and lose nothing.

Kyurem-W to C

Seeing as it and Palkia are on some opposite ends of a spectrum I think it's logical they share a rank. Palkia's a somewhat fast attacker with a decent defensive typing at the cost og both STAB moves unfortunately having immunities while Kyurem-W is a slow, more powerful attacker with an arguably better STAB(one with no immunities) but with a worse defensive typing. Pick your poison.
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Disagree with Genesect being moved to D. The pokemon has its advantages. For starters a choice scarf set is actually great since its movepool is so diverse. Running things like ice beams for dragons, its steel stab is great for things like xerneas, and U turn is great for the obvious switch into Primal Groudon. The pokemon can give you a lot of momentum with u turn as well, since switches are so obvious when this is on the field. Even being able to be sleep fodder for things like Darkrai for the obvious dark void, letting you run things like sleep talk to take full advantage. While the pokemon has a lot of problems in the meta, it definitely does have its merits.
 
Yeah move it to C-. It may have a little niche on being faster with scarf but truth is that this mon is absolutely shit. It can't pull off his usually thing like in BW2 with hit and run since you can't switch it in at all. Everything is way too fat and why waste a precious pokemon slot for a mon like Genesect? Yeah cool it OHKOs Mega-Salamence and can get momentum but when can you actually use these moves? Most of the time Salamence is after DD faster anyways and switching it in is close to impossible. I mean yeah you can "check" Lati@s by switching in one time but yeah... That mon can't even check Xerneas so you got literally no reason why you should use it over Jirachi in my opinion.
 
Won't vouch too much for Arceus steel because it is pretty bad but a CM arc that is immune to toxic, isn't walled by Clefable, and has a STAB attack without immunities is kinda decent. It sets up on Latis and is a flying resistance too I guess; found it working alright running substitute (helps set up on Ferro) and some SpA investment alongside CM Ogre. Yeah it takes up an arc and mono steel isn't the best but it's surely usable unlike the other D rank shitter Arc formes. Should stay where it is
 
updaterino

Kyurem-W drops to mid C (nobody said where in C so its below Palkia)
Genesect drops to D (better to drop it here and argue for a raise than have it in C- where the argument would be "why not D")
Mega Tyranitar swaps spots with Clefable (C+ >< B-)
Arceus-Steel and Arceus-Flying swap spots at the bottom of C-

Sellout post: Flygon, Cresselia and Gyarados need analyses before they can be ranked. Anyone interested in potential shiny pixels and being johned by all the QC besides myself are able to grab one of them and write an analysis for it.
 
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Landorus-I should honestly be at least C-. It's a SR setter that can outrun and 2HKO Defog users like standard Dragon and Water Arceus and handle lead Excadrill well. It also has a sick movepool; it can OHKO Ho-Oh with Rock Slide, smack Defog Lati@s with a surprise U-turn / Knock Off, and even smash Xerneas and Clefable with Sludge Wave if you're so inclined to run Poison coverage. Focus Blast can hit Skarmory and Yveltal hard, although it's a pretty mediocre option on Landorus overall. HP Ice is also kind of bad IMO, Landorus pressures Rayquaza fairly well with Sludge Wave anyway and offensive Mega Mence will probably be faster than you if it mega evolved already. Don't forget that Landorus an acceptable Primal Groudon check for offensive teams, even if it cannot check donner by itself.

Sure, SR Primal Groudon is obviously much better than this in a vaccuum...that's why you use this with an offensive Primal Groudon set instead. Landorus hits hard, has great coverage, and brings a neat typing both offensively and defensively (for example, you can revenge somewhat weakened SD Groundceus if healthy). Sheer Force + Life Orb really does wonders for that otherwise underwhelming 115 Special Attack stat.

Also a lot of players don't know how to handle Landorus right now, as I've discovered in room tournaments. Strike while the iron is hot.

Absdaddy and a couple of others were willing to back me up on this!
 
Landorus and Arceus-Fire should both go up at least to C-, and Arceus-Fly drop to D.

Landorus as it's said has a niche to hit everything it wants to but suffers from a 4MSS, which is honestly its biggest problem. It can come freely on Klefki (does Toxic really annoy such a frail Pokemon?) and against Pdon if not using Lava Plume, when predicting Twave. Paired with a Latios and/or screens support, Landorus can act quite well in offensive oriented teams; or even use Stealth Rock to make teammate's Groudon Primal a full offensive set, or avoid a slot for suicide Deo if you fear Sableye and to improve match up against other Pdon leads.
Arceus-Fire is not completely useless like Flyceus (that mon is worse than any other Arceus forms, as a stall breaker Arceus-Ice is way better thanks to the Ice Stab, which is a greater typing for a mono attacker while still pressuring offensive oriented teams; and as a defogger ? Mmence and a lot of other Arceus form are way better at this role. SD? No comment. Why running SD + Fly when you can run Ghostceus with Shadow Force ,-,)
With Psych Up, Arceus Fire is a really reliable GeoXerneas check, if not the best in the meta, and should not be D-Rank for this reason. Arceus-Fire can use Recover to continuesly check Xerneas throughout the game, something that Pdon and Klefki can't, as they temporarely check this threat. Fireceus also beats 1000-arms up Rest Xerneas variants, and annoying Steel type pokemon that you face even more and who check your DD Mega Mence and Xerneas 4 days.

So to resume :
Arceus-Fire : D -> C / C-
Landorus : D -> C-
Arceus-Fly : C- -> D
And I approve Hoopa-U, Cress and Flygon being ranked at the future

PS: Sorry for being absent atm I have a lot of work and my birthday this week ^^
 
ive been studying ubers and this page and its a pretty fun meta (except primal groudon is everywhere lol). and so i wanted to make a nom of my own.

Arceus Normal, while i don't agree that it should drop to A+, i feel it should be moved to the bottom of S. It's a fantastic cleaner and revenge killer that is really invaluable to offensive teams but compared to the other S-rank mons, i think its less splashable and has the biggest opportunity cost since arceus formes are high in demand.
 
I honestly still dont understand how darkrai stands above Arceus Water in viability.
Darkrai provides much less utility than Waterceus, i'd say to an extent where the oppurtunity cost of using an Arceus form doesnt even matter. Its blank offensive capabilities are simply not enough to justify A+. The "It just knocks out/puts to sleep one mon guaranteed" logic is 1. not accurate, considering teams are prepared for Darkrai and 2. still neglects the fact that its pretty hard to build a good team with Darkrai.
Honestly, I wouldnt even mind dropping it a whole subrank but at least put it below Waterceus ;-;

Edit: Ok I guess i'll actually go this far and say put Darkai below Latios( Darkrai to A)The total of Latios utility,both defensive and offensive, is greater than Darkrais offensive one.

Second edit: It seems I define viability in a different/wrong way and therefore wont respond to krau and double
 
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I disagree entirely. Whereas Waterceus has a myriad of not only answers, but ways of wearing it down so it can no longer perform its role, Darkrai always has been (and, in my opinion, always will be) the single largest pain-in-the-ass mon in competitive Pokemon. Even on teams with a Ho-Oh and Klefk (the arguable best way to defend against Darkrai on non-HO), Darkrai's going to put in work, especially if it's on the standard HO team with the emphasis of getting up Stealth Rocks, whether it be through outright killing Ho-Oh or putting Klefki to sleep.

Responding specifically to ShadowQuinn's points:

"Teams are prepared for Darkrai" - but, see, that's the thing. No matter how much you prepare, this mon can always, always, ALWAYS bite you in the ass, more so than any other mon due to the shakiness at best of its 'checks', when you consider other roles that need to be filled. (Ho-Oh vs standard HO is an exception to this, but Ho-Oh's only good as sleep fodder vs standard HO anyway.)

"it's pretty hard to build a good team with Darkrai" - the best team in ORAS Ubers has already been made, and guess what one of its six mons are :o Besides, you greatly underestimate how easy it is to slap Darkrai on anything that comes close to resembling a hyper offensive team. Specific to one type of team ≠ difficult to build with. By that logic, Lugia's a terrible Pokemon because it doesn't fit on Offense.

I'd even argue for Darkrai to be bumped up to S, myself. Maybe it's just me, maybe not, and either way I don't have the emotional investment to push for it, but I feel like ShadowQuinn greatly understated how annoying this mon is.
 
Darkrai is on the shortlist of Pokemon that, when you are building a team, you need an answer to. Arceus-Water is not. If you are building a good team, you will ask yourself... okay, what are my answers to the following?
1) How do I beat Geo-Xern? What if my primary check goes down?
2) How do I beat EKiller? What if it dances to +4?
3) How do I deal with Primal Groudon?
4) How do I prevent Lugia stall from tearing apart my team?
5) What do I do about Darkrai?
6) What do I do about hazards?
7) What is my Ho-Oh switch-in?
8) Salamence has just switched in and is ready to Dragon Dance. What am I going to do?

Obviously, there are other important questions besides these but I would say these 8 questions are the 8 most important things you need to ask yourself when a) building your team and (b) evaluating a team that someone else has built. The hidden question 9 is ...
9) How do I win the game? What are my own win conditions?

Mons like Gengar, Arceus-Water, etc. you don't need to specifically prepare for... most teams naturally have SOME way of dealing with these mons ... and if they don't, that is usually quickly revealed through some basic playtesting and small modifications (surprise coverage moves) can be made.

In other words, a mon like Darkrai is influential enough that not preparing for it is silly/ridiculous. You can prepare for an Arceus-form by knowing how to pressure defoggers ... Arceus-Water is extremely useful but I don't think it should be ranked above Darkrai. I can't count the number of times that I've modified my own ladder team (which is admittedly weak to certain types of stall) to beat stall and then realized "now my team is weak to Darkrai" and simply quit to go play chess. Darkrai is downright infuriating (although not as much as Mega-Sableye)

...and because I can't go an entire post without disagreeing with Krau at least once.

Krauersaut said:
"it's pretty hard to build a good team with Darkrai" - the best team in ORAS Ubers has already been made, and guess what one of its six mons are :o.
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The best team in ORAS Ubers is Hackstall.
 
Both standard HO and Hackstall lack the indomitable core of Gyarados + Ice Arceus and therefore are ineligible for the honor of "best ORAS Ubers team," sorry. :[

I also agree that Arceus-Fire is a great choice for your Ubers team if you satisfy any one of the following conditions:

1. You don't mind that fellow Fire-types Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh also check Xerneas, are way more offensively threatening AND defensively useful, and let you use a better Arceus forme.
2. You don't mind using an Arceus forme that, no matter what combination of moves you run, is going to be walled by one or more of Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Lati@s, or Mega Salamence, all of whom are massive offensive threats that would love to get a free turn on an Arceus-Fire.
3. You like to live life on the edge and want to use a Xerneas check that fails once it switches in SR + Spikes, can't KO it with Modest full power Overheat even after Psych Up, and has to give up a moveslot for Psych Up which is legitimately only useful against Xerneas.
4. You don't believe in the concept of "opportunity cost" and see nothing wrong with using your Arceus forme on one that is completely outdone in defensive and offensive utility by the most common Pokemon in the tier.
5. Your are a humble denizen of PS! and Fireburn promised you roomvoice for 10 seconds if you swept Krauersaut with one.

In all seriousness though, Arceus-Fire is hot garbage and is ranked where it belongs. At least Arceus-Flying is immune to Spikes and can pose a decent threat with Calm Mind + Refresh if you feel like trying a boosting Flying attacker but want your Mega for something else (and it's not completely outclassed by Salamence...it's mostly worse but the lack of x4 Ice weakness does give you a better matchup against Lugia and fat support arcs with Ice Beam, and Flying is still a very good attacking type). And at least Arceus-Bug gets you style points.
 
Fireburn said:
And at least Arceus-Bug gets you style points.
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I beg to differ. Also dafuq does this even do that any other Arceus forme cannot do better?

On board with the Landorus rise; this thing is far from an abysmal D Rank choice as far as offensive Stealth Rockers go and is more versatile than it lets on. Its Speed is enough to let it set SR against a good majority of the tier even with a neutral Speed nature, and it has the power and coverage to put pressure on nearly every hazard remover / preventor, or just pose an offensive threat in general.

Psychic Arceus seems rather worthless even amongst the mons in D Rank. From what I can see in the rankings, the influence of the offensive Psychics in Deoxys and Mewtwo (+ its Mega formes) have been reduced substantially over time, and alternative solid checks like MSableye, Klefki, Yveltal, and Aegislash are still options, so is PsychicCeus even worth consideration anymore? As far as I know, PsychicCeus doesn't even have room for Defog, which only eats that much more into its opportunity cost.
 
ShadowQuinn said:
I honestly still dont understand how darkrai stands above Arceus Water in viability.
Darkrai provides much less utility than Waterceus, i'd say to an extent where the oppurtunity cost of using an Arceus form doesnt even matter. Its blank offensive capabilities are simply not enough to justify A-. The "It just knocks out/puts to sleep one mon guaranteed" logic is 1. not accurate, considering teams are prepared for Darkrai and 2. still neglects the fact that its pretty hard to build a good team with Darkrai.
Honestly, I wouldnt even mind dropping it a whole subrank but at least put it below Waterceus ;-;
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Hello!

First of all, a lot of this seems like a big exaggeration. Are we seriously considering dropping darkrai to A-? I get that it's kind of "mediocre" and its use is limited outside of Hyper Offense builds, but saying stuff like"Its blank offensive capabilities are simply not enough to justify A-" seem to severely undermine what darkrai can do. Darkrai not only destroys most of the metagame with its awesome coverage, but has immense power behind its moves. It's got plenty of viable move sets believe it or not, such as substitute + Nasty plot, Substitute + Dark pulse/sludge bomb (For reference: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ubers-70701), Life orb, and even sword dance! It's great glue on teams that need it. It even has Taunt if you really want to look deeper, which is an awesome option, believe it or not. Not to mention that darkrai is absolute hell to face while running balance/stall archetypes.

It obviously is frail and has a bit of trouble setting up, and is "taken on" by a few common threats in this metagame, which is why it's only in A+ and nothing higher. Maybe it could go to A (I want to hear more arguments) since it does admittedly need a specific team composition to get its job done, but the point is that you are being unfair to darkrai and this post is really undermining what it can do.

ShadowQuinn said:
Edit: Ok I guess i'll actually go this far and say put Darkai below Latios( Darkrai to A)The total of Latios utility,both defensive and offensive, is greater than Darkrais offensive one.
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Also, "the total of Latios utility, both defensive and offensive, is greater than Darkrais offensive one" is not a RELEVANT factor in whether or not darkrai drops.
 
we should drop arceus-psychic to OU ;]

im about to head to school so i can't make a big long tl;dr about arceus-psychic, but in my (admittedly limited) experience with it, it does have a niche as one of the few actual reliable switch-ins to Deo-A that can repeat the job when necessary, w/o depending on any 50/50s. it also checks all those niche fighting types (lucario, mmx, to some extent blaze) that truly plague balance/stall teams.

its certainly far from the upper echelon of viable arceus-formes, but its not quite as trash as some other ones. (it's also certainly better than bugceus and fireceus, although aurora's qdb post made me laugh.) i'd suggest bumping it up to C-, especially considering its better than mons that reside there [arceus-flying and mawile-mega - (puke)].

edit: damn astounded posted like 1/2 a second before i did, but this is in response to punchshroom.
 
Krauersaut said:
we should drop arceus-psychic to OU ;]
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Hardy har though for reals this would probably be my second pick after BugCeus

in my (admittedly limited) experience with it, it does have a niche as one of the few actual reliable switch-ins to Deo-A that can repeat the job when necessary, w/o depending on any 50/50s. it also checks all those niche fighting types (lucario, mmx, to some extent blaze) that truly plague balance/stall teams.
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I mean balance/stall teams pretty much already incorporate Mega Sableye so... :/. Even ignoring that, there's still a multitude of possible options to handle Deoxys-A, namely Pursuit users like Mega Scizor, Chople TTar, and Aegislash which pretty much end Deo-A, though the latter two want to make their switch correctly (and even then, Aegi may still salvage the situation with a timely King's Shield on the 2nd Knock Off), or bulky Yveltal if Deo-A lacks Ice Beam, while being useful for other things. Hell, Mega Slowbro can probably claim PsychicCeus's supposed niche in stopping niche Fightings while still handling Psychic-types somewhat. Stall/balance is also much less pressured with their Mega choice as opposed to their Arceus choice. Reliably stopping Mewtwos is probably PsychicCeus's bigger, if not biggest niche, though Taunt could still trip it up so it's not exactly all rosy.

its certainly far from the upper echelon of viable arceus-formes, but its not quite as trash as some other ones. (it's also certainly better than bugceus and fireceus, although aurora's qdb post made me laugh.) i'd suggest bumping it up to C-, especially considering its better than mons that reside there [arceus-flying and mawile-mega - (puke)].
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Woah there let's back up a little. Certainly its niche is better than BugCeus's and FireCeus's, but that only really warrants a higher rank in D than a rise to a higher subrank. MMawile and FlyCeus are also a bit better than you give them credit for.
 
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Nah I think squinn has a point but I do think the overall problem as always are definitions. By threat level mons like Darkrai, Xerneas, Arceus-Normal are in their own leauge (with Mence and Pdon ofc) but that doesn't they fit on as many builds as more sounder alternatives like Klefki, Arceus-Water and Ho-oh. So it's kinda tricky, shouldn't we just have a threatlist rank to complement this or something?

The Arceus-Fire and Lando-I discussions are useless. The former is an Arceus forme and the small of niche it had just flew out the window with its pal opportunity cost. Lando-I is straight up bad because it will ALWAYS result in your offensive build being a worse Deo-S offense and if wanna think about using it on balance the fact that it just doesn't switch in to anything is just too costly. That also results in an overall weaker build. Like, using it on an offensive team as a rocker might seem fine because you can get away less switching for the most part... But then you open up yourself to straight up losing to other HO, since the weakness of Deo-s+Darkrai will be too hard to cover. It's like Dialga all over again but that shit can at least check Mence. Maybe ok on smashpass who knows
 
The fact that Darkrai restricts building the way it does in this metagame, is alone enough to keep it in A+. I don't know about others but I really have fun building lots of teams and Darkrai is responsible of me deleting tons of them after going into practice.
One more thing, Scarfers are not really viable in ORAS because of many factors. So this metagame is the type of metagame where it shines the most, dropping it below A+ is a huge mistake, but whatever, if i was responsible of the viability ranking thread i would have changed tons of stuff anyway.
 
I agree that Landorus should move up. People need to remember its amazing speed stat compared to most Ubers and how it has a great match-up vs P-don. A super effective Earth Power does a lot to it. Also because of it's amazing speed stat it can usually move first which allows it to use it's Sheer Force No recoil Special Attack stat. Also it's bulk is decent for a mostly offensive pokemon while having only 2 weaknesses.
I believe mainly the reason Landorus should be looked at is because of it's power vs threats such as P-don and Ho-oh with STAB and coverage. It can also run more coverage for other pokemon depending on what is needed. I know Landorus is not great but it is better than D.
 
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