I think Blast is right.
The B tier deserves a whole revamp. Actually, the whole VR could most certainly use a revamp. There's Pokemon like Piloswine, Sliggoo, Liepard, etc. that usually seriously gets considered for a team, and stuff that really fails to accomplish too much while not being that much better than alternatives in higher ranks. And they're all in B_. I have a few ideas on how revamping the VR Rankings systems as a whole and shift down everything in the process so that we can stop having 15 pokemon in A+ and almost all but like 4-5 Pokemon that are NU in usage at B or above. Not only is this awful, it's also meaningless.
Hi marilli, let me address your points here because I've also been considering a revamp of the list for a while. You and others are very correct in saying that the list is suffering from some inflation in a couple of areas.
First, let me start off by saying that the entire VR is subjective. You can do your best to attach objective criteria to it, but, at the end of the day, someone will disagree with a nom just because they "don't feel it's the right move," they haven't seen/used it themselves, or it doesn't fit their building style. This is, unfortunately, how the ranks work and we just have to grit our teeth and do what we can as contributors to find a happy equilibrium that can appease everyone. For example, I disagree completely that Liepard is a Pokemon that's "usually seriously considered for a team" because I think Liepard is honestly awful. In regard to only 4-5 Pokemon that are NU by usage being in B, I'm only going to say that usage doesn't translate to viability. We'll rank the mons based on their effectiveness, not what ladder hasn't been spamming.
I will not touch on the issue with Fire-types as other people have already posted above. I simply think many of them are rather more unreliable than other stuff in A+, such as Steelix, Kang, and Garb which are consistent performers. The points of criticism on Pyroar is valid, and I also want to say Magmortar lost tons of defensive utility with Sceptile being the Grass-type of choice and it always carries a way to hit AV Mag. It's still great offensively but the defensive utility is more situational vs. specific threats, and I'm not sure if it is still deserving of A+.
I'm going to say I also agree with Blast's post, for the most part. I disagree with moving Rhydon down because I think offensive Rhydon is a terrifying sweeper right now, and has been for a while. I've also wanted to nominate Musharna to drop down. It's far too passive and it's only gotten worse and worse with each shift. An offensive metagame gives Mush significantly less opportunities to switch in, Steelix is an extremely hard stop to mush that's everywhere, and, in general, people know how to play against all of its sets now. It's a lot like Malamar in that regard.
I don't necessarily agree with dropping mag, but I suppose I can understand the arguments for it, so I'll let other people who are more passionate about Mag discuss it further.
On the B+/B_/B- tiers:
B tier right now has awful lot of variance.
I have not seen Cacturne in ages, and I probably wouldn't consider Cacturne for any really serious team that much. Absorb Scald, yes, but most bulky waters also have a way to heavily pressure that switch-in with super effective attacks like Signal Beam, U-turn, and STAB Air Slashes. Shiftry is just so much more usable and yes spikes are a thing but who cares when offensive shiftry already has like 0 switch-ins for defensive teams anyways? And lol at the idea of Cacturne setting up spikes vs offensive teams. Most Signal Beam users outspeed Cacturne, but not Shiftry. The speed difference between the two includes the highly contested speed tiers such as 239, and max speed garb, hitmonchans, and the xatus and stuff float around there. Floatzel lost a huge niche after Sceptile joined the tier. Tauros and Archeops lost large amounts of viability as 'the fastest thing ever other than Swellow', and in turn, getting the jump on the 110s means much less nowadays. This makes it much harder to justify Floatzel's spot on the team now that it loses lots of defensive utility it used to serve thanks to its speed, especially given that it relies on an 80% accurate move to do any real damage. It essentially became a much more niche option, etc.
Agree with dropping Cacturne, you and I actually discussed dropping it not too long ago. No opinion on Floatzel.
Drop:
Magmortar A+ - > A_
Tauros A+ -> A_
Charizard A+ -> A_
I'm aware that you're trying to even up the ranks, but there needs to be reasoning included for us to consider the nomination. If you think a rank is misrepresenting a Pokemon or that something has changed to make the Pokemon worse then you need to say it instead of leaving things up to interpretation.
Personally, I see no reason in dropping Charizard as I think it's an extremely diverse Pokemon that has a huge impact on the metagame. The only thing that's keeping it out of S is the support it needs in teambuilder, in my opinion.
Archeops A_ -> A-
Scyther A_ -> A-
Abomasnow A_ -> A-
Rotom-Fan A- -> B+
Skuntank A- -> B+
Aurorus A- -> B+
There's certainly more that could be considered. These are some very basic bare-bones ideas here. Actually I really really wanna undo a lot of the recent rises because yes they have improved in comparison to how good they were previously in the meta, but it's just all VR inflation everywhere at the moment... Consider the fact that they're staying in their current tier as equivalent to rising a rank.
I'll say it again, but you need to include reasoning on why you think these should drop. I disagree with the other two noms, but I'll throw my support behind Skuntank. Skunk is prone to being whittled down and, a lot of the time, it just gets beat out as a Pursuit trapper. Switching in on a Will-O-Wisp, Volt Switch, or U-turn puts a ton of pressure on Skunk and loses a ton of momentum because of how weak and exploitable its typical offensive options are. The special set is equally weak and exploitable. It fills an alright niche, but its dependency on matchup to be effective, on top of the increasingly few matchups it's actually that great in, and easily exploitable traits should be reflected in a drop, in my opinion.
Cacturne B+ -> B-/B_
Floatzel B_ -> B-
Electivire B_ -> B-
Torterra B_ -> B-
Sandslash B_ -> B-
Gourgeist-S B_ -> B-
This shifts in B- in turn call for drops in B- to C+. People need to stop thinking in terms of school grades. People think C + is awful and have a visceral reaction to this, but I feel it is simply more honest in that we are dividing Pokemon into more precise categories.
Kadabra B- -> C+
Roselia B- -> C+
Mr. Mime B- -> C+
Vanilluxe B- -> C+
Carracosta B- -> C+
Bouffalant C+ -> C_
Crustle C+ -> C_
Cradily C+ -> C_
Raichu C+ -> C_
Jumpluff C+ -> C_
etc.
Pokemon that are good should be B- and above.
Pokemon that are niche should be in the C tiers, not B, in my opinion. Thanks and have a nice day.
There are a couple in here that I agree with, but I'm not going to make arguments for your nominations for you. I've been caught up in a lot of other problems lately, so I'm sorry if I've come across as lazy by not making a lot of these nominations myself. However, I've been putting it off because, like I said, you need explanations for each nomination. A solid revamp post requires a lot of time and effort to put into. If you want my suggestion, take it one rank at a time instead of trying to get everything moved at once.
Also, as a point for everyone else, being sassy in your post doesn't make it anymore likely that your nominations will go through. I'm known to edit out sass because all it does is derail discussion.
