Anything Goes Resources

[MZ]

Ttar should pretty much always be going for a resist berry or lum berry, I know it sounds gimmicky but when you consider four different options that could potentially benefit your team that give opponents issues (Chople, Shuca, Lum, Roseli), it really is solid. Scizor is not purely worse in AG because it's a mega, Xerneas is also a larger threat because suddenly Pdon isn't the best/most common threat in the meta to take it on ever time and it's the only slow pivot that's close to decent here, at least Ubers has Jirachi n stuff that doesnt work as well here. Sand is really lame, Exca is only ranked for the lead set which is very reliable. Please stop comparing AG to Ubers unless there's a very good reason and the parallel enhances the argument.

 

[hexandwhy]

Ttar should pretty much always be going for a resist berry or lum berry, I know it sounds gimmicky but when you consider four different options that could potentially benefit your team that give opponents issues (Chople, Shuca, Lum, Roseli), it really is solid. Scizor is not purely worse in AG because it's a mega, Xerneas is also a larger threat because suddenly Pdon isn't the best/most common threat in the meta to take it on ever time and it's the only slow pivot that's close to decent here, at least Ubers has Jirachi n stuff that doesnt work as well here. Sand is really lame, Exca is only ranked for the lead set which is very reliable. Please stop comparing AG to Ubers unless there's a very good reason and the parallel enhances the argument.

"Xerneas is also a larger threat because suddenly Pdon isn't the best/most common threat in the meta" Wait, what does that even mean? P-don is nowhere near the best Xern threat, but it definitely is the most common, pretty sure. (The best threat is a Shedinja, of course) Is P-don losing usage? Did Xerneas learn some event move like Earth Power? Why is P-don no longer a threat, or a good one at that?

 

[MZ]

It's on 80% of ubers teams and rly rly good there. It's only on 50% of teams and rly good here. Also Ray is a v good check that not exists

 

[Chloe]

I'd like to see a general consensus on whether people would like the ordering by viability or if the alphabetical version we have now is fine.
Issues with ranking them all by viability is it would take heaps of time, however we would be able to analyse which pokémon are suited for their ranks better.
If we did choose to order by viability an example of the S rank would be something like this:

Rayquaza (Mega)

Arceus

Darkrai

Xerneas

Groudon (Primal)

Also as you can see, the Rayquaza AG analysis has been uploaded to Smogon, which should hopefully clear up some confusion for new players. Thanks to Funbot28 for taking the time to write this!

Essentially, Alphabetical or full fledged viability-based? If you're going to post, it would be beneficial if you actually explain why you think we should do that. If you agree with the viability method, do you agree with the ordering here? Anyways, feel free to discuss viability changes as always.

I know for example many believe Arceus is more viable than Mega Rayquaza, and vice versa, so this should be interesting.

 

[Daft Blaze]

While full-fledged viability based ranking would maybe be better for new players..... it'd take a lot of time and is not really possible. It isn't really possible because two mons can do completely different jobs at which they are the very good and hence cannot be directly compared. Even if we do compare and rank them, the rankings would be based on an 'individual's bias'.

So, I support ranking mons in alphabetical order.

 

[MZ]

I've said this before, but alphabetical is fine up until the point the rankings are just so perfect we don't have more stuff to change and I don't believe that that is the case right now. We haven't sorted out controversial noms like Ttar and Lugia yet and there are still Pokemon that nobody has used ranked in theory like Lando-T and Wobbuffet, or mons that only one or two people have used once or twice like Mega Meta or Garchomp.

 

[Adeleine]

I'd like to see a general consensus on whether people would like the ordering by viability or if the alphabetical version we have now is fine.

My ideal scenario would be the non alphabetical, as I think things get really interesting and informative if we start getting into the difficult decisions there, such as Rayquaza versus Arceus-N as you said. I mean, we all agree the two belong in S, that's easy. But as you said, not which goes where.
However, while I don't quite agree with Megazard and would rather not wait until we get the ranks perfect or close to perfect, I do agree that we should sort out controversial noms like TTar before transitioning (if we do transition). Also, I wouldn't suggest using non-alphabetical for C tier and below; because I mean, it's important whether Arceus-Ice and arceus-poison belong in base C or somewhere else, but which one is better... There are more important issues. We could also limit it further to only A and above. I don't dislike the alphabetical system, but just think this transition is even better.

I'd honestly rank Arceus-Normal for versatility (much easier and more viable bulky sets), but it's really really close for me. Besides that I completely agree with your ranks

While full-fledged viability based ranking would maybe be better for new players..... it'd take a lot of time and is not really possible. It isn't really possible because two mons can do completely different jobs at which they are the very good and hence cannot be directly compared. Even if we do compare and rank them, the rankings would be based on an 'individual's bias'.

So, I support ranking mons in alphabetical order.

While I do agree/acknowledge that it would take a lot of time, we definitely can directly compare Pokemon directly.p and say which is better, at least pretty accurately. The current tiers already do that; a mon in S tier like Darkrai will prove better than compared to something like C-tier Salamence-Mega in direct comparison, even though they do completely different roles. Obviously, that comparison is easier and less contested than say Arcues v. Mray, but both are possible. And all viability rankings by nature are sort of based on (or at least influenced by) individual bias lol.

 

[TheHungrySage]

I'd like to see a general consensus on whether people would like the ordering by viability or if the alphabetical version we have now is fine.
Issues with ranking them all by viability is it would take heaps of time, however we would be able to analyse which pokémon are suited for their ranks better.
If we did choose to order by viability an example of the S rank would be something like this:

Rayquaza (Mega)

Arceus

Darkrai

Xerneas

Groudon (Primal)

Also as you can see, the Rayquaza AG analysis has been uploaded to Smogon, which should hopefully clear up some confusion for new players. Thanks to Funbot28 for taking the time to write this!

Essentially, Alphabetical or full fledged viability-based? If you're going to post, it would be beneficial if you actually explain why you think we should do that. If you agree with the viability method, do you agree with the ordering here? Anyways, feel free to discuss viability changes as always.

I know for example many believe Arceus is more viable than Mega Rayquaza, and vice versa, so this should be interesting.

I really have to second Drayden8437 here, ranking in terms of viability is just not possible, not because of the massive amount of work that would be involved, but just because ranking all of the Pokemon in AG against each other is like comparing apples and oranges-often, each Pokemon brings a completely different set of assets to a team that simply cannot be compared to anything else, let alone ranked.

As for the order of Pokemon in S rank, I would put them in the following order:

Arceus

Xerneas

Rayquaza (Mega)

Darkrai

Groudon (Primal)

Arceus outranks all the other members of this tier simply due to the way in which it presents an unrivaled ability to adapt to any team, by running bulk, attack, support, etc. Xerneas comes next for relatively the same reason as Arceus, the versatility it possesses. I place it here over Rayquaza Mega because I don't believe in Ray's defensive capabilities, whereas Xerneas possesses a good ability to defend itself as well as being able to sweep. Next up is Mega Ray, because it outranks Krai and Pdon in terms of attack potential to an extent at which their other capabilities become irrelevant. Darkrai is over Primal Groudon because, without the sleep clause, it is quite scary, just not to the extent of the previous four. Finally, Primal Groudon, because it sucks ass it possesses bulk and attack, but not enough of either to prove itself better than the other four.

 

[Daft Blaze]

While I do agree/acknowledge that it would take a lot of time, we definitely can directly compare Pokemon directly.p and say which is better, at least pretty accurately. The current tiers already do that; a mon in S tier like Darkrai will prove better than compared to something like C-tier Salamence-Mega in direct comparison, even though they do completely different roles. Obviously, that comparison is easier and less contested than say Arcues v. Mray, but both are possible. And all viability rankings by nature are sort of based on (or at least influenced by) individual bias lol.

While ranking we do not compare mons directly, lol. We are seeing how usable they are in the current metagame, and the pokemon whose niches outnumber their flaws are placed at the top. And the individual bias while comparing to mons in the same rank would be considerably greater.

 

[Adeleine]

While ranking we do not compare mons directly, lol. We are seeing how usable they are in the current metagame, and the pokemon whose niches outnumber their flaws are placed at the top. And the individual bias while comparing to mons in the same rank would be considerably greater.

Yeah, I guess it's true we rank by usability, not by as I said "betterness". But that's a minor point in this context; we still do directly compare Pokemon. We directly say that Groudon-Primal is more usable or has its niches outnumber its flaws more or whatever as opposed to your average Arceus-Poison or something because Groudon-P is in a higher tier. It's just a it more subtle and less used in the current format. This current ranking system is a direct ranking system, it's just we have a bunch of Pokemon tied for spots, if you catch my drift, so to speak. also, if you can't directly compare Arcues Normal and Arcues Fire and say that Normal has a higher niche etc., than how do you justify putting Fire in a lower tier?

I don't get where you're going with "individual bias" since it factors into all rankings (as I said before) and we have multiple people talking in this thread, including a council of 5 people that makes the final decisions.

What he said

Let's see if there's anything else...

Same argument in favor of the system really. As for the rankings, I put MRay over Xern because of its priority, because you don't need a viable bulk set to be viable (Mray can run DD, SD, all out Mixed attacker, Choice Specs, and maybe more), and because of its sheer speed and power without setup compared to Xern, but I see your logic and agree with the rest.

 

[Chloe]

I did things:
New Role Compendium

This should help with some things, for new players and even experienced players who are looking for specific roles within a team.
It's still work in progress but I'm at the point, where I'm comfortable to talk about it. I still have to add a few things, fix a few things; so please do not point out all my mistakes in the thread and clutter it. If you see something that needs clarifying or something that needs changing, talk to me.

Also, I'm going ahead with Blissey to C- as the council decided that it deserved an increase.

 

[hexandwhy]

I really have to second Drayden8437 here, ranking in terms of viability is just not possible, not because of the massive amount of work that would be involved, but just because ranking all of the Pokemon in AG against each other is like comparing apples and oranges-often, each Pokemon brings a completely different set of assets to a team that simply cannot be compared to anything else, let alone ranked.

As for the order of Pokemon in S rank, I would put them in the following order:

Arceus

Xerneas

Rayquaza (Mega)

Darkrai

Groudon (Primal)

Arceus outranks all the other members of this tier simply due to the way in which it presents an unrivaled ability to adapt to any team, by running bulk, attack, support, etc. Xerneas comes next for relatively the same reason as Arceus, the versatility it possesses. I place it here over Rayquaza Mega because I don't believe in Ray's defensive capabilities, whereas Xerneas possesses a good ability to defend itself as well as being able to sweep. Next up is Mega Ray, because it outranks Krai and Pdon in terms of attack potential to an extent at which their other capabilities become irrelevant. Darkrai is over Primal Groudon because, without the sleep clause, it is quite scary, just not to the extent of the previous four. Finally, Primal Groudon, because it sucks ass it possesses bulk and attack, but not enough of either to prove itself better than the other four.

Personally, I'd choose this list.
Darkrai
Rayquaza/Arceus/Xerneas
Groudon

The difference between Darkrai, M-Ray, Arceus, and Xern is really small. They are all really good mons, but I listed Darkrai above everyone else because it's just too good. It only loses to Scarf mons/Mewtwo/Deoxys when it doesn't have a Sub up, and opposing Darkrai with Taunt. Nothing can really out class a mon that has the ability to single handedly sweep PREPARED teams. Try all you want, Lum or whatever. If you let it get a Substitute when rocks are on play, it's pretty much GG unless you have Lum + Roar Arceus, rely on DV miss, Scarf Genesect, Infiltrator Ninjask (lol, lost to that once), or have a Flame Orb Magic Guard Clefable, or some other obscure sets.

It's hard to choose who's better out of M-Ray, Arc, or Xern. If M-Ray didn't take up a Mega Slot, I can imagine it literally being S+++ rank. However, it does take a mega slot, which means that Mega Gengar can't be used in synergy (which would be pretty awesome). Arc is just everywhere. It's S rank material, obviously. Xern is good too. Scarf is a pretty good revenge killer, and GeoXern has been hyped up since the beginning of XY Ubers. Xern is probably very slightly beneath Ray or Arc because it lacks priority and it can't afford to hold Lum Berry or set up more than once.

Groudon Primal kind of pales in comparison and compared to the other mons, it looks like S- material. It's one of the best Rock setters, stops Scarf and P-Ogre from steamrolling most teams (they'd sure have a higher viability and usage rating if P-don didn't exist), and is one of the best Xern and Arceus phazers. It can deal a lot of damage and having a Will-O-Wisp + T-Wave immunity lets it use SD or Rock Polish to greatly increase it's offensive capabilities. However, I think it's one of the better set up fodder for Darkrai (it has 0% chance of carrying Lum Berry or Sleep Talk, but might have Roar, which it needs to be careful of) is incapable of holding items to aid it's stats, and has a bad speed tier along with no recovery aside from Rest. Due to its speed tiers, and special bulk, and recovery, it has a hard time being a sweeper or tank. It however is one of the best leads in AG capable of setting SR up and to Roar away and mons that can threaten the team.

 

[Adeleine]

Personally, I'd choose this list.
Darkrai
Rayquaza/Arceus/Xerneas
Groudon

The difference between Darkrai, M-Ray, Arceus, and Xern is really small. They are all really good mons, but I listed Darkrai above everyone else because it's just too good. It only loses to Scarf mons/Mewtwo/Deoxys when it doesn't have a Sub up, and opposing Darkrai with Taunt. Nothing can really out class a mon that has the ability to single handedly sweep PREPARED teams. Try all you want, Lum or whatever. If you let it get a Substitute when rocks are on play, it's pretty much GG unless you have Lum + Roar Arceus, rely on DV miss, Scarf Genesect, Infiltrator Ninjask (lol, lost to that once), or have a Flame Orb Magic Guard Clefable, or some other obscure sets.

It's hard to choose who's better out of M-Ray, Arc, or Xern. If M-Ray didn't take up a Mega Slot, I can imagine it literally being S+++ rank. However, it does take a mega slot, which means that Mega Gengar can't be used in synergy (which would be pretty awesome). Arc is just everywhere. It's S rank material, obviously. Xern is good too. Scarf is a pretty good revenge killer, and GeoXern has been hyped up since the beginning of XY Ubers. Xern is probably very slightly beneath Ray or Arc because it lacks priority and it can't afford to hold Lum Berry or set up more than once.

Groudon Primal kind of pales in comparison and compared to the other mons, it looks like S- material. It's one of the best Rock setters, stops Scarf and P-Ogre from steamrolling most teams (they'd sure have a higher viability and usage rating if P-don didn't exist), and is one of the best Xern and Arceus phazers. It can deal a lot of damage and having a Will-O-Wisp + T-Wave immunity lets it use SD or Rock Polish to greatly increase it's offensive capabilities. However, I think it's one of the better set up fodder for Darkrai (it has 0% chance of carrying Lum Berry or Sleep Talk, but might have Roar, which it needs to be careful of) is incapable of holding items to aid it's stats, and has a bad speed tier along with no recovery aside from Rest. Due to its speed tiers, and special bulk, and recovery, it has a hard time being a sweeper or tank. It however is one of the best leads in AG capable of setting SR up and to Roar away and mons that can threaten the team.

To me, Darkrai's fairly long flaw list makes marking it as the best Pokemon in the entire tier. It has 0 versatility as it can really only run one general set viably, is very predictable, is very prepared for, and has big 4MSS problems (can't run all of Nasty Plot/Substitute/Sludge Bomb). It relies on hitting an 80% accuracy move to avoid being turned into Darkrai-paste, often multiple times, and if its opponent exits sleep early it can have big problems (especially if it doesnt have Substitute). You also fail to mention Darkrai's issues setting up, as while its speed makes setting up possible quite often (i mean, i still have it in 3rd place), Lum Berry is very common and things like Arceus and Mray can use it to set up and sweep because it doesn't have strong damage until it has a Nasty Plot or two under its belt and has already begun to set up.
No reason to mention completely ridiculous things like Ninjask when Diancie-Mega (probably the second or third most viable mega in the tier) shatters it and Sleep Talk Ho-Oh forces it out unless DK has strong boosting already done. Speaking of Diancie-Mega, the existence of it and the somewhat-less common Sableye-Mega can make using Dark Void far from a sure thing, making Darkrai often a liability in those cases. Gengar-Mega has a decent shot to at least kamikaze if it can predict well and has Protect, since it outspeeds and has stuff like Destiny Bond and Taunt and attacks etc.

The only thing you slight Mray for is that it takes up a mega slot, and the opportunity cost isnt that huge when its the best Mega in the tier. Especially with Lum Berry, it picks apart and destroys so many teams. This is partially due to it having priority and a setup move that boosts both speed and offense, neither of which Darkrai has. Arceus-Normal also has awesome versatility due to its surprisingly good typing, coupled with a great movepool and stat spread, which lets it run both offensive and defensive sets of many kinds. It also has priority, while Darkrai has neither versatility nor priority.

Since it has Rock Polish (and Swords Dance too), I'm not sure i'd go as far to say it belongs in an S-, but I do agree with it being in the bottom of S.

 

[HunterStorm]

To me, Darkrai's fairly long flaw list makes marking it as the best Pokemon in the entire tier. It has 0 versatility as it can really only run one general set viably, is very predictable, is very prepared for, and has big 4MSS problems (can't run all of Nasty Plot/Substitute/Sludge Bomb). It relies on hitting an 80% accuracy move to avoid being turned into Darkrai-paste, often multiple times, and if its opponent exits sleep early it can have big problems (especially if it doesnt have Substitute). You also fail to mention Darkrai's issues setting up, as while its speed makes setting up possible quite often (i mean, i still have it in 3rd place), Lum Berry is very common and things like Arceus and Mray can use it to set up and sweep because it doesn't have strong damage until it has a Nasty Plot or two under its belt and has already begun to set up.

AG rais don't rely on Nasty plot to be potent, so that argument kind of falls in itself. The idea is to abuse bad dreams and no sleep clause and NP is "one" of the many ways of doing it (not even top 2, IMO). Moreover, rai isn't supposed to switch in vs Mray and try to win games (although, it can be taunted to allow a setup to be stopped and revenge killed in the next turn, or spam sub vs ascent and weaken Mray via ascent damage). Rai's job is to find mons in a team that it can void (there are plenty), ensure it has sub on as that mon dies (which isn't too hard) and it is simply unstoppable (unless ridiculous hax). Running taunt ensures no recovery or stalk BS, running HP steel deals with probably the only reliable rai check and NP gives it more power. I've seen people opt for double team to piss people off. So rai not being versatile isn't true, either.

No reason to mention completely ridiculous things like Ninjask when Diancie-Mega (probably the second or third most viable mega in the tier) shatters it and Sleep Talk Ho-Oh forces it out unless DK has strong boosting already done. Speaking of Diancie-Mega, the existence of it and the somewhat-less common Sableye-Mega can make using Dark Void far from a sure thing, making Darkrai often a liability in those cases. Gengar-Mega has a decent shot to at least kamikaze if it can predict well and has Protect, since it outspeeds and has stuff like Destiny Bond and Taunt and attacks etc.

It doesn't "shatter" rai if there's a move that straight up OHKO's Mdiancie and has more than 10% usage(HP Steel - too desperate, but not non existent). All stalk users are entirely shut down by taunt. Mgar w/o fmiss is no where near a counter for darkrai, unless you like depending on ridiculous 50-50's.

The only thing you slight Mray for is that it takes up a mega slot, and the opportunity cost isnt that huge when its the best Mega in the tier. Especially with Lum Berry, it picks apart and destroys so many teams. This is partially due to it having priority and a setup move that boosts both speed and offense, neither of which Darkrai has. Arceus-Normal also has awesome versatility due to its surprisingly good typing, coupled with a great movepool and stat spread, which lets it run both offensive and defensive sets of many kinds. It also has priority, while Darkrai has neither versatility nor priority.

Since it has Rock Polish (and Swords Dance too), I'm not sure i'd go as far to say it belongs in an S-, but I do agree with it being in the bottom of S.

Since when does darkrai need set up moves to be considered good? It's like comparing apples and oranges. Mray and E killers are good BECAUSE they run setup priority. There is no other reason. Darkrai's reasons are different - it relies on a brilliant speed tier coupled with abusing a very reliable status and sub + whatever move suits your mood. While Mray and E killers can take 3-4 mons on a good day, Rai can potentially 6-0 teams.

P.S - Not advocating Rai's superiority over the others, there were just a lot of flaws in that argument which needed to be pointed out.

 

[hexandwhy]

To me, Darkrai's fairly long flaw list makes marking it as the best Pokemon in the entire tier. It has 0 versatility as it can really only run one general set viably, is very predictable, is very prepared for, and has big 4MSS problems (can't run all of Nasty Plot/Substitute/Sludge Bomb). It relies on hitting an 80% accuracy move to avoid being turned into Darkrai-paste, often multiple times, and if its opponent exits sleep early it can have big problems (especially if it doesnt have Substitute). You also fail to mention Darkrai's issues setting up, as while its speed makes setting up possible quite often (i mean, i still have it in 3rd place), Lum Berry is very common and things like Arceus and Mray can use it to set up and sweep because it doesn't have strong damage until it has a Nasty Plot or two under its belt and has already begun to set up.
No reason to mention completely ridiculous things like Ninjask when Diancie-Mega (probably the second or third most viable mega in the tier) shatters it and Sleep Talk Ho-Oh forces it out unless DK has strong boosting already done. Speaking of Diancie-Mega, the existence of it and the somewhat-less common Sableye-Mega can make using Dark Void far from a sure thing, making Darkrai often a liability in those cases. Gengar-Mega has a decent shot to at least kamikaze if it can predict well and has Protect, since it outspeeds and has stuff like Destiny Bond and Taunt and attacks etc.

The only thing you slight Mray for is that it takes up a mega slot, and the opportunity cost isnt that huge when its the best Mega in the tier. Especially with Lum Berry, it picks apart and destroys so many teams. This is partially due to it having priority and a setup move that boosts both speed and offense, neither of which Darkrai has. Arceus-Normal also has awesome versatility due to its surprisingly good typing, coupled with a great movepool and stat spread, which lets it run both offensive and defensive sets of many kinds. It also has priority, while Darkrai has neither versatility nor priority.

Since it has Rock Polish (and Swords Dance too), I'm not sure i'd go as far to say it belongs in an S-, but I do agree with it being in the bottom of S.

1. Diancie is definitely not the second most viable Mega, as M-Ray and M-Gar exist. Even then, I'd say MMX is better.
2. Darkrai has a little flaw list, with the biggest problem being it's sleep move having only 80% Accuracy.
3. It does have close to zero versatility, but it has two viable set, thank you very much. (Taunt + Sub is better when you have rocks in play, and Nasty Plot is more power in general. Sludge Bomb is for pesky Fairy types, but is less viable than the main 2)
4. Sableye is a set up bait to Darkrai, because little carry Snarl and setting up Substitue + Nasty Plot is really easy on it. Sableye isn't going to live a *4 Dark Pulse. M-Diancie dies to 2 SR damage and three Dark Pulses, and it has a whopping 20% chance to get flinched by Dark Pulse while trying to break Substitute. That means it only can come in on Darkrai twice, or three times if revenge kills. It only gets three tries when Darkrai can get over 5 opportunities per game, if played right. Diancie also has very weak defenses along with a lack luster speed stat of 120, making it easy for Arceus to just plain OHKO with a super effective moves, or set up on it. Darkrai can also run HP Steel for the OHKO (#JuicyStrats), or use Sludge Bomb for the 2HKO after some residual damage. Darkrai is good due to it's unrivaled set up opportunities and the fact that each time it sets up, it can be lethal for the opposing team. Arceus can only set up once or twice per game, and it doesn't always sweep when it sets up. Darkrai can set up many times bar DV miss, and almost always can kill a mon or two, and occasionally sweep the opposing team.
5. Beating M-Gar could potentially be worth sacking your Darkrai, depending on how the game goes. And M-Gar is on the same level as Mewtwo as it has the status as a mon that outspeeds Darkrai.

 

[MZ]

Guys, since we aren't doing ranking in order of viability (unless gooser pulls a 180?) the AG ladder thread would be a better place to discuss this. Also to suggest that darkrai has no flaws/the biggest one is dark void missing is to ignore its extreme frailty, poor matchup versus ekiller spam, difficult matchup versus bouncers, and weakness to pretty much anything faster, and even mentioning HP steel is just not relevant. Taunt is really ass too but p much everybody calls it good so wat do. But yeah, if you want to respond to this, just CP the quote to the ladder thread so this stays open for actual resource discussion.

 

[Adeleine]

This replay clearly shows Regular Groudon is a team-sweeping offensive threat and should join its big brother in S. I mean come on it doesnt even a set up move http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-334148775

But being serious now. While I love that Groudon-regular got brought up to C+, I still nominate him for B-. His ability to hold a Lum Berry and good defensive typing (while drought is up I believe only weak to grass and ice, fairly uncommon types in AG) give him versatilies Groudon-P doesn't have access to, such as much more reliably threatening and often defeating Pokemon such as Klefki (if they swag you keep the free attack boost as Groudon-regular), Groudon-P, and Darkrai.

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 320-378 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 262-309 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Groudon Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 292-344 (103.5 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


This is fairly minor, but is still the most competent Pokemon at setting up Sun for Pokemon like Ho-Oh. To me it just has too much niche to stay in the C tier.

 

[hexandwhy]

This replay clearly shows Regular Groudon is a team-sweeping offensive threat and should join its big brother in S. I mean come on it doesnt even a set up move http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-334148775

But being serious now. While I love that Groudon-regular got brought up to C+, I still nominate him for B-. His ability to hold a Lum Berry and good defensive typing (while drought is up I believe only weak to grass and ice, fairly uncommon types in AG) give him versatilies Groudon-P doesn't have access to, such as much more reliably threatening and often defeating Pokemon such as Klefki (if they swag you keep the free attack boost as Groudon-regular), Groudon-P, and Darkrai.

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 320-378 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 262-309 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Groudon Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 292-344 (103.5 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


This is fairly minor, but is still the most competent Pokemon at setting up Sun for Pokemon like Ho-Oh. To me it just has too much niche to stay in the C tier.

1. That replay is terrible.
2. I don't really think the max attack set is the best as Don can run T-wave + Rocks + Dragon Tail, which helps in more situations. However, I do like Lum Don, and I've been using it here and there.

I do think it's better than P-don in many situations, and actually fits in just as many teams as a regular P-don would. I think people either underrate it (because they see little Groudon on the ladder, and the bandwagon effect is a thing) and have never tried it. The only con of using regular Don is losing to Xern (you can still t-wave it on the set up turn if your on the field, and follow up with a powerful EQ, at the cost of your Don's life), and not having the capability to switch into P-Ogre or Scarf Ogre. It actually fairs better against Arceus due to no longer being weak to Earthquake, and does better against obvious things like Darkrai (the opponent might use it as an Anti lead against what they think is P-don, and then might be surprised because it was a regular Don), Klefki, etc. Also, if you're using this Don, it should be treated as a suicide lead (switch it out if it will be useful later game) followed up by Mewtwo/Arceus. I believe this is one of LinearCurve's main strategies, and if you want a good example of Lum Don in action, just look at one of his replays. I'd say B rank is pretty suitable for this thing.

 

[Adeleine]

1. That replay is terrible.
2. I don't really think the max attack set is the best as Don can run T-wave + Rocks + Dragon Tail, which helps in more situations. However, I do like Lum Don, and I've been using it here and there.

I do think it's better than P-don in many situations, and actually fits in just as many teams as a regular P-don would. I think people either underrate it (because they see little Groudon on the ladder, and the bandwagon effect is a thing) and have never tried it. The only con of using regular Don is losing to Xern (you can still t-wave it on the set up turn if your on the field, and follow up with a powerful EQ, at the cost of your Don's life), and not having the capability to switch into P-Ogre or Scarf Ogre. It actually fairs better against Arceus due to no longer being weak to Earthquake, and does better against obvious things like Darkrai (the opponent might use it as an Anti lead against what they think is P-don, and then might be surprised because it was a regular Don), Klefki, etc. Also, if you're using this Don, it should be treated as a suicide lead (switch it out if it will be useful later game) followed up by Mewtwo/Arceus. I believe this is one of LinearCurve's main strategies, and if you want a good example of Lum Don in action, just look at one of his replays. I'd say B rank is pretty suitable for this thing.

1. Obviously. Lol.
2. I tried a support set similar to what you said but I was set-up for too many things: without Lum, Darkrai makes mincemeat out of you, and if you don't run 252+ Attack in addition you have no shot of OHKO (unless you do 252 Hammer Arm or something which gives you 69% chance -kek-). 252+ Dragon Claw at least lets you do something to Mray (252+ Atk Groudon Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 214-252 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) as well. Twave does have some good utility though, especially against Xerneas. I'd still run 252+ attack though, which lets you do 55-65% with blades (which i prefer over EQ since the extra power matters for things like Xern and especially Krai) and paralyze Geoxern which in all honesty isn't too bad of a way for Groudon to go.

It actually fairs better against Arceus due to no longer being weak to Earthquake, and does better against obvious things like Darkrai (the opponent might use it as an Anti lead against what they think is P-don, and then might be surprised because it was a regular Don), Klefki, etc.
Natch
Also, if you're using this Don, it should be treated as a suicide lead (switch it out if it will be useful later game)
Exactly what I do. Rocks/Blades/Claw/Hammer Arm atm to ensure the OHKO on Krai excluding Rocks but I may well replace it in favor of Twave.

 

[hexandwhy]

1. Obviously. Lol.
2. I tried a support set similar to what you said but I was set-up for too many things: without Lum, Darkrai makes mincemeat out of you, and if you don't run 252+ Attack in addition you have no shot of OHKO (unless you do 252 Hammer Arm or something which gives you 69% chance -kek-). 252+ Dragon Claw at least lets you do something to Mray (252+ Atk Groudon Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 214-252 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) as well. Twave does have some good utility though, especially against Xerneas. I'd still run 252+ attack though, which lets you do 55-65% with blades (which i prefer over EQ since the extra power matters for things like Xern and especially Krai) and paralyze Geoxern which in all honesty isn't too bad of a way for Groudon to go.

It actually fairs better against Arceus due to no longer being weak to Earthquake, and does better against obvious things like Darkrai (the opponent might use it as an Anti lead against what they think is P-don, and then might be surprised because it was a regular Don), Klefki, etc.
Natch
Also, if you're using this Don, it should be treated as a suicide lead (switch it out if it will be useful later game)
Exactly what I do. Rocks/Blades/Claw/Hammer Arm atm to ensure the OHKO on Krai excluding Rocks but I may well replace it in favor of Twave.

The support set I mentioned was used by LinearCurve and you're supposed to run Lum on it...

 

[MZ]

I highly disagree that it should be used as a suicide lead, the point of don is that it's a superior check to Pdon so if you want to go sui use exca or something. Hammer arm also sounds extremely mediocre, this one I have not used but Blades is plenty strong. I didn't really know what moveset to run, but blades/rocks/edge/filler seems plenty fine, it's just that dclaw, roar, fire punch, twave, etc all seem more attractive than hammer arm. I just can't see groudon being worth a B rank as the arguments presented don't really address it too well, the point is to look at its niche outside of what Pdon does. Practically this boils down to checking other Pdon, Groundceus, Darkrai, and Klefki better, and that is solid but it's a single check to mons you still want more to handle. When I finally used this thing it definitely exceeded my expectations since I expected it to suck and I'm not against going up to B-, but I don't see it in B.
Mega Mewtwo Y also needs to drop again, unless anybody has used it to some success and hasn't told anybody else, is there a single person who wants to use this? Yes, usage and viability are not connected, but exactly when is it better to use the mega versus regular? Y has better bulk for taunt/CM sets and an immunity to void, so I suppose it checks darkrai better but it's still a poor CM user. Not exactly the mon I'd have told you I wanted in the same rank as Espeon, but there you go.

 

[Adeleine]

I highly disagree that it should be used as a suicide lead, the point of don is that it's a superior check to Pdon so if you want to go sui use exca or something. Hammer arm also sounds extremely mediocre, this one I have not used but Blades is plenty strong. I didn't really know what moveset to run, but blades/rocks/edge/filler seems plenty fine, it's just that dclaw, roar, fire punch, twave, etc all seem more attractive than hammer arm. I just can't see groudon being worth a B rank as the arguments presented don't really address it too well, the point is to look at its niche outside of what Pdon does. Practically this boils down to checking other Pdon, Groundceus, Darkrai, and Klefki better, and that is solid but it's a single check to mons you still want more to handle. When I finally used this thing it definitely exceeded my expectations since I expected it to suck and I'm not against going up to B-, but I don't see it in B.
Mega Mewtwo Y also needs to drop again, unless anybody has used it to some success and hasn't told anybody else, is there a single person who wants to use this? Yes, usage and viability are not connected, but exactly when is it better to use the mega versus regular? Y has better bulk for taunt/CM sets and an immunity to void, so I suppose it checks darkrai better but it's still a poor CM user. Not exactly the mon I'd have told you I wanted in the same rank as Espeon, but there you go.

I've been experimenting with Groudon-Reg and have gotten rid of Hammer Arm, because as you said it is just too mediocre to merit a moveslot. Really just ensures the KO on 100% hp Darkrai from what i've seen (as opposed to 60% or w/e with Blades). I've replaced it with Roar for the moment, and so far I'm seeing as optimum running basically what you said except Roar (or twave or something else useful) instead of Edge.
I pretty much agree with all of what you said (I said it was good to have suicide earlier, but based on what you're saying i probably wasn't thinking of suicide in the right way), and did myself nom it to B- (not to B regular).
I agree with dropping MMY as well. I haven't really used it (since its badness) and have kept quiet since maybe I'm missing something or whatever, but yeah I feel the same way.

 

[QT]

I highly disagree that it should be used as a suicide lead, the point of don is that it's a superior check to Pdon so if you want to go sui use exca or something. Hammer arm also sounds extremely mediocre, this one I have not used but Blades is plenty strong. I didn't really know what moveset to run, but blades/rocks/edge/filler seems plenty fine, it's just that dclaw, roar, fire punch, twave, etc all seem more attractive than hammer arm. I just can't see groudon being worth a B rank as the arguments presented don't really address it too well, the point is to look at its niche outside of what Pdon does. Practically this boils down to checking other Pdon, Groundceus, Darkrai, and Klefki better, and that is solid but it's a single check to mons you still want more to handle. When I finally used this thing it definitely exceeded my expectations since I expected it to suck and I'm not against going up to B-, but I don't see it in B.
Mega Mewtwo Y also needs to drop again, unless anybody has used it to some success and hasn't told anybody else, is there a single person who wants to use this? Yes, usage and viability are not connected, but exactly when is it better to use the mega versus regular? Y has better bulk for taunt/CM sets and an immunity to void, so I suppose it checks darkrai better but it's still a poor CM user. Not exactly the mon I'd have told you I wanted in the same rank as Espeon, but there you go.

I have been playing around with Y, and I really really like it. It is't amazing, but its very solid pokemon.
First off is its great matchuup. While using it means you cant use Mray, it comes out well against many top tier threats.

S-rank

It obviously beats Darkrai due to its great special bulk and immunity to sleep.
Focus blast has a 46% chance to ohko arceus after rocks, while lumceus has only a 70% chance to 2hko it back. Focus Miss makes that matchup even worse, but this is still a coinflip.
Offensive Pdon is an ohko on MMY- it loses this. MM2Y has a shot at beating specially defensive varients, but this shouldn't be relied on.
Ice beam deals 76-90 to Mray, guarenteed after rocks, while Mray sometimes misses out on the 2hko back.
It can taunt Xern, and 2hko's with psystrike, but loses to scarf variants or xerneas that use moonblast while it uses taunt (or geo while it doesn't). Usually a win.

It beats about half of s rank 1v1

a-rank

It beats arc Fairy, loses to Arc Ghost, easily beats klefki, loses to ho-oh, and beats lugia.
It beats Diancie, beats Mgar, Beats special but loses to physical groundceus, and loses to Yveltal.
Beats Steelceus, Beats Mewtwo, beats Kyogre Primal, and loses to Giratina-O
Good, but with a few qualifiers.

B-Rank

It beats Rockceus, waterceus, Deoxys-A, Skarmory, and MMX.
It beats Dragonceus, smeargle, giratina and sableye, while losing to Genesect, Kyogre, Scolipede, and Zekrom.
It beats the entire B- rank

In my experience, Its usually as solid-if not more so- thatn MMX, and has a pretty good matchup against the tier. Everything slower loses, and nothing that wins comes off unscathed. While it does require rocks (and appreciates stick web for letting it defeat all the scarfers), MM2Y requires little else to sweep. It has a great matchup against most teams, and is solidly better than its regular form. WHile using it does mean you can't use MRay, so does using every other mega in the tier. It is worlds better than all the garbage in the C rank (Blaziken, really?), especially Lucario, a fellow mega. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say it's probably regular B material. It isn't amazing, but its not bad by any means.

TL;DR- MM2Y isn't a world shattering threat, but it still has the power, ability, and speed to make an impact-unlike all of C rank.

 

[MZ]

I have been playing around with Y, and I really really like it. It is't amazing, but its very solid pokemon.
First off is its great matchuup. While using it means you cant use Mray, it comes out well against many top tier threats.

S-rank

It obviously beats Darkrai due to its great special bulk and immunity to sleep.
Focus blast has a 46% chance to ohko arceus after rocks, while lumceus has only a 70% chance to 2hko it back. Focus Miss makes that matchup even worse, but this is still a coinflip.
Offensive Pdon is an ohko on MMY- it loses this. MM2Y has a shot at beating specially defensive varients, but this shouldn't be relied on.
Ice beam deals 76-90 to Mray, guarenteed after rocks, while Mray sometimes misses out on the 2hko back.
It can taunt Xern, and 2hko's with psystrike, but loses to scarf variants or xerneas that use moonblast while it uses taunt (or geo while it doesn't). Usually a win.

It beats about half of s rank 1v1

a-rank

It beats arc Fairy, loses to Arc Ghost, easily beats klefki, loses to ho-oh, and beats lugia.
It beats Diancie, beats Mgar, Beats special but loses to physical groundceus, and loses to Yveltal.
Beats Steelceus, Beats Mewtwo, beats Kyogre Primal, and loses to Giratina-O
Good, but with a few qualifiers.

B-Rank

It beats Rockceus, waterceus, Deoxys-A, Skarmory, and MMX.
It beats Dragonceus, smeargle, giratina and sableye, while losing to Genesect, Kyogre, Scolipede, and Zekrom.
It beats the entire B- rank

In my experience, Its usually as solid-if not more so- thatn MMX, and has a pretty good matchup against the tier. Everything slower loses, and nothing that wins comes off unscathed. While it does require rocks (and appreciates stick web for letting it defeat all the scarfers), MM2Y requires little else to sweep. It has a great matchup against most teams, and is solidly better than its regular form. WHile using it does mean you can't use MRay, so does using every other mega in the tier. It is worlds better than all the garbage in the C rank (Blaziken, really?), especially Lucario, a fellow mega. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say it's probably regular B material. It isn't amazing, but its not bad by any means.

TL;DR- MM2Y isn't a world shattering threat, but it still has the power, ability, and speed to make an impact-unlike all of C rank.

But what is it doing that regular two can't? Its stall breaker set is better thanks to extra bulk but if any of those are talking about bulky or CM regular two can pull that off as well. I just skimmed that and don't disagree with any except
68 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 283-335 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
but I also don't see why it fares better versus these than regular two, which is sort of the point of dropping it since it's not worth the slot. But like I said, I haven't used it much so a more qualified opinion is good.

 

[Adeleine]

But what is it doing that regular two can't? Its stall breaker set is better thanks to extra bulk but if any of those are talking about bulky or CM regular two can pull that off as well. I just skimmed that and don't disagree with any except
68 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 283-335 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
but I also don't see why it fares better versus these than regular two, which is sort of the point of dropping it since it's not worth the slot. But like I said, I haven't used it much so a more qualified opinion is good.

This was the question I was about to ask until Megazard asked it first. The opportunity cost is pretty huge if you aren't gaining enough to compensate for it. And also, I feel like you overrate MMY to a degree in your analysis.

"Focus blast has a 46% chance to ohko arceus after rocks, while lumceus has only a 70% chance to 2hko it back. Focus Miss makes that matchup even worse, but this is still a coin flip."

You presume you have rocks up but your opponent doesn't. +2 Extreme Speed is a guaranteed OHKO after rocks. If both sides have rocks up, and assuming you run 252 Timid (iirc you need that to beat 252+ Darkrai) your chance to win is that Focus Blast hits and OHKOs. Mathematically, if I do have my math right, this means that you have basically
a 30% chance to win that matchup (minor note, the chance to OHKO is slightly less than what you said, at 43.8%),
a 30% chance your team has to deal with a basically full health +2 Ekiller (FM Misses),
and 40% chance a heavily injured +2 Ekiller still lives.

If neither team has rocks up, you have practically the same scenario. Thats not really what I'd call a coin flip; rather, it's quite against you. And this presumes Jolly LumCeus. While I do think Jolly Lumceus is usually the best set, it is also the one that looks like it is the most in your favor at first glance to me, which means that other matchups against Ekillers may be worse.


"Ice beam deals 76-90 to Mray, guarenteed after rocks, while Mray sometimes misses out on the 2hko back."
I'm fairly confident that Mray doesn't have to worry whether it will get a 2hko.
252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 334-394 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO.
Consequently,
+1 252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 501-589 (141.9 - 166.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You win if rocks are up, but otherwise you have a still-alive and boosted Mray, which could either be frustrating or death depending on the circumstances, your team, and whether Mray is holding Life Orb.


It can taunt Xern, and 2hko's with psystrike, but loses to scarf variants or xerneas that use moonblast while it uses taunt (or geo while it doesn't). Usually a win.

Even not taking into account that you lose to the Scarf set, a good Xern player will know that the MMY player has 2 acceptable options: Psystrike and Taunt. If the Xern user correctly predicts which one will be used, Xern wins. If not, Xern loses. Hinging on one prediction when both sides have 2 options to choose from seems more like a coin flip to me.

TLDR/Conclusion So you say it beats half of S rank 1v1, when it seems to me like it beats like 1 (darkrai) + 0.5 (xern, like coin flip) + 0.3 (mray, mmy absolutely requires rocks) + 0.2 (Arceus, low win probability for MMY huge risk of rampaging ekiller), which adds up to 2.


To not be too lengthy I'll just cover the A ranks briefly. They mostly seem on par to me, but...
I dont see how it "easily beats Klefki" since it has no immunity to swagger, a respectable attack stat to hit itself with, is weak to Foul Play, and is absolutely crippled by Thunder Wave, as speed is one of its biggest assets.
"beats Kyogre Primal"
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 243-286 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y in Heavy Rain: 324-382 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y in Heavy Rain: 324-382 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Another big general problem I see is that Psystrike OHKOs very few things, and very many things can 2HKO MMY or at least cripple it in return, limiting its opportunities to switch in and make a difference.