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Smogon Usage-Based Tier Update: February 2016

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Ya know, if you guy's really want shitmons like Ambipom/Cinccino in RU and Milotic in UU to move down, then try begging Antar to use the 1760 stats, and then promptly get rejected.

But even if it were possible to switch up there (though, let's be real, it'll never happen), I don't think it'd be a good idea. (Notably, we'd get bullshit like Lilligant in PU and Dugtrio in NU for instance (Though they may be more manageable if it did drop than I'm thinking it would be (which is none at all))
 
Melons-N-Soda, the reasoning for the different baselines is here and here.

I am always open to suggestions like this (keep in mind they need to be run past the various tier leaders and senior staff), but look at it from another perspective: the higher we make the baselines, the more "elitist" our tier lists become.

The purpose of a tier list within its own tier is to define the "threatlist" for that tier--you should not need to explicitly make sure your RU team has an answer for a Pokemon listed as NU. Basing the stats off of 1695/1630 stats acknowledges that a competitive player will be better than your average "casual" Showdown player. But raising the cutoff to 1760, in my opinion, is a bridge-too-far, and is essentially saying, "if you're not in the top 2.5% of all players, your experience means shit."

I hope that makes sense. Feel free to post a reply if you'd like to discuss this further.
 
Antar said:
Melons-N-Soda, the reasoning for the different baselines is here and here.

I am always open to suggestions like this (keep in mind they need to be run past the various tier leaders and senior staff), but look at it from another perspective: the higher we make the baselines, the more "elitist" our tier lists become.

The purpose of a tier list within its own tier is to define the "threatlist" for that tier--you should not need to explicitly make sure your RU team has an answer for a Pokemon listed as NU. Basing the stats off of 1695/1630 stats acknowledges that a competitive player will be better than your average "casual" Showdown player. But raising the cutoff to 1760, in my opinion, is a bridge-too-far, and is essentially saying, "if you're not in the top 2.5% of all players, your experience means shit."

I hope that makes sense. Feel free to post a reply if you'd like to discuss this further.
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So to clarify, does OU get to use the even higher benchmark of 1825 because the playerbase is that much larger?
 
jordanthejq12 said:
So to clarify, does OU get to use the even higher benchmark of 1825 because the playerbase is that much larger?
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The OU-UU cutoff is based off of 1695 stats, not 1825. The higher baseline is justified because OU is the default, "standard" metagame. Consequently, a much larger proportion of OU players are "casual" as compared to other metagames.
 
Torkoal in PU and Donphan in UU only get usage because they're hazard removers. Hazard removal in lower tiers is a bit desperate, especially in tiers where hazard stacking is common (NU for instance). (I'm guessing the Electric immunity and typing resisting all hazards is what makes Donphan appealing; Even though in this regard Gligar has these aspects as well but Donphan doesn't immediately die after being hit by an Ice-type move like Gligar does)
 
Ubers-wise, 1760 Yveltal being #4 and above Ho-Oh is pretty laughable among other things.

Also Antar , the usage tracker is looking for Dragon Ascent Rayquaza and calling it Mega Rayquaza while non-DA Ray (lol) is being counted differently which offsets Rayquaza's overall usage. It would be cool if the Dragon Ascent check could be removed in Ubers since Mega Ray was banned something like 2 weeks into oras (rip).
 
@WreckDa, I'm aware. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to handle this programmatically. I really just need to settle on something.
 
SO the month is changing and we have not only the Hidden Ability legendary birds, but also the Hidden Ability Regis coming up this Friday!
 
Joe Career said:
SO the month is changing and we have not only the Hidden Ability legendary birds, but also the Hidden Ability Regis coming up this Friday!
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Though I don't really think they'll have much use. Sturdy Regirock may have uses, but the other two are better off with their other ability in Pressure. Low ladder's going to start spamming Abomasnow + Articuno cores in NU but aside from that the HAs on the birds aren't going to be useful. (Maybe Moltes and Zapdos can cripple physical attackers but most physical attackers that switch in on them beat them regardless so w/e)
 
Melons-N-Soda said:
Though I don't really think they'll have much use. Sturdy Regirock may have uses, but the other two are better off with their other ability in Pressure. Low ladder's going to start spamming Abomasnow + Articuno cores in NU but aside from that the HAs on the birds aren't going to be useful. (Maybe Moltes and Zapdos can cripple physical attackers but most physical attackers that switch in on them beat them regardless so w/e)
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The Regi's have clear body for the abilities not pressure, and for the most part clear body is useless on them . As for the birds, other than Articuno, there isn't really any reason not to use their hidden abilities since imo pressure is a really bad ability, and free burns/paralysis could potentially make or break games.
 
It's probably not enough to make Moltres OU-viable, but Zapdos can at least have a chance to paralyze Mega Pinsir on the switch, which is pretty neat, but it makes it harder for SubToxic to stall Hippowdon out of Stone Edge PP (4 Stone Edges for Pressure, 8 for Static) so Pressure isn't totally useless.
 
Da Pizza Man said:
The Regi's have clear body for the abilities not pressure, and for the most part clear body is useless on them . As for the birds, other than Articuno, there isn't really any reason not to use their hidden abilities since imo pressure is a really bad ability, and free burns/paralysis could potentially make or break games.
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Well I failed research lol. Needless to say though my views on the new abilities have improved.

Now all we need is Hidden Ability legendary dogs. Those sound pretty neat actually.
 
Da Pizza Man said:
The Regi's have clear body for the abilities not pressure, and for the most part clear body is useless on them . As for the birds, other than Articuno, there isn't really any reason not to use their hidden abilities since imo pressure is a really bad ability, and free burns/paralysis could potentially make or break games.
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not sure if you're saying pressure is only bad on moltres and zapdos or bad on all 3 but it's definitely great on articuno
 
Da Pizza Man said:
As for the birds, other than Articuno, there isn't really any reason not to use their hidden abilities since imo pressure is a really bad ability, and free burns/paralysis could potentially make or break games.
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Outside of the subroosts sets, I don't see any reason why Moltres would not have Flame Body. As for Zapdos I'm going to guess that it can't have Static and Defog at the same time, so unless you're running a pure attacking set pressure will likely still be the norm.
 
Magnemite said:
not sure if you're saying pressure is only bad on moltres and zapdos or bad on all 3 but it's definitely great on articu no
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I meant it was bad on Zapdos and Moltres (Although I just realized that Static is incompatible with Defog, so that is a reason to use Pressure on Zapdos, but any other set except for SubRoost should use Static or Flame Body)
 
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Nah Pressure>Static on any even moderately bulkily-inclined Zap imo (and potentially Roost+3 attacks too, dependent on matchup) because it allows it to stall out Stone Edges with roost, which is big considering that it lures common users and is able to reach a point where it can wall them in half as much time - which is overall more consistent than Static. Also, for what its worth, lets it punish Gyro Ball that much more efficiently with it due to it limiting it to four uses assuming they all target zap.
 
gamer boy said:
Nah Pressure>Static on any even moderately bulkily-inclined Zap imo (and potentially Roost+3 attacks too, dependent on matchup) because it allows it to stall out Stone Edges with roost, which is big considering that it lures common users and is able to reach a point where it can wall them in half as much time - which is overall more consistent than Static. Also, for what its worth, lets it punish Gyro Ball that much more efficiently with it due to it limiting it to four uses assuming they all target zap.
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Although i personally have rarely any investment when it comes to UU, Static on Zapdos i have noticed to be very undervalued i saw this and thought i share it since it has valid points.

"The point of Static isn't that it is your last ditch chance of stopping a sweep; the point is that it discourages people from spamming certain moves. Things like Whimsicott, Beedrill or Mienshao are not going to feel comfortable spamming U-Turn (normally an incredibly low risk move) knowing that there's a 30% chance they'll be crippled for the match. It also means that things like non-Stone Edge Cobalions trying to wear down Zapdos by making it repeatedly switch into Rocks + Iron Head for a late-game sweep can no longer do that.


I also tend to think Defog on Zapdos is kind of not great anyhow, so the illegality of it doesn't really bother me. Some sets will definitely prefer Pressure, no doubt, but ironically Static can actually pressure opposing teams a lot more than Pressure can. I definitely think it's an upgrade for many sets."

Hogg made that post and it brought up some key points Static has and while Pressure is prefered for stalling out certain pokemon/moves the equal pressure Static can provide shouldnt be ignored completely
 
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