ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Take Azelfie]

Vigoroth D --> C

I haven't been playing all that much but I did use Vigoroth and it is really good rn. The mixture of its decent stats, great moveset and can use eviolite make it a very well rounded pokemon in the tier.

So obviously it gets much better with two of the most dominant fighting types leaving the tier thus, limiting the amount of mons that can threaten it. It boasts a great moveset with moves like taunt, bulk up and slack off, which allows it to beat other pokemon in the tier very easily. It can abuse facade to make up for its lack of status removal. Taunt separates it from most pokemon that can set up, and due to it's above average bulk with eviolite. It can out speed a decent majority of the tier with 90 speed which also allows it to beat almost every other Pokémon that can set up in the tier. Vital Spirit is also nice for stuff as well like the odd lilligant and co.

I wouldn't go as far as C rank because this tier still has a bunch of ghost that wall its best set to hell and back (Rotom, Drifblim, Mismagius, Haunter, Golurk) and there are still Hariyama and Poliwrath who either hit it really hard or it can be phazed out. Throh who might even get more usage also have a move to either phaze or crit. Not to mention we have the giant blob Quagsire who just doesn't care. Even though two thorns in Vigoroth's side left doesn't mean I'd let it go to C, I am even contemplating whether it should even be in C-.

 

[Shadestep]

Lanturn A- --> A
hey, I think this lil' water lamp needs to be higher up. It's proven to be a really reliable pivot and cleric on most balance teams, and mostly a 'oh shit, I don't have anything for Magmortar and Pyroar'-glue, on most teams. Volt Switch offers very easy momentum seeing as most of the electric-immunties in the tier fear a Scald, making it really risky to switch it in on Lanturn. With one of the things that can outspeed and OHKO Lanturn being gone (Sawk), I feel as if Lanturn has become a lot better. Annoying Offense-teams with Scalds, Toxics, even Thunder Waves, combined with being a great pivot, makes me think it deserves to be higher-up.

I think that the meta has shifted a lot with Sawk and Gurdurr being gone, which makes me interested in seeing changes in the VR. my nomination isn't based only on the fact that Sawk and Gurdurr are gone now, definitely not! It is part of the reason, but I think new rising stars will become the face of NU, mons such as Shiftry. I don't want to nominate it for S-Rank, but it is really really good right now. having (one of) the most powerful Knock Offs in the tier, together with a good speed-tier, strong STAB priority, and decent coverage options, I think it is really something to look out for.

 

[AJB]

Machoke Unranked > C-

After letting the metagame settle a bit I think it's safe to say that Machoke should be ranked. Previously almost totally outclassed by Gurdurr as a bulky Fighting type, Machoke finally has a niche of its own in this meta. The Dynamic Punch tank set is solid as even common fighting resists such as Mesprit and Xatu hate getting confused, and the Rest-Talk Guts set is really strong while maintaining longevity throughout a battle, something that cannot be said for other bulky Fighting types like Hariyama. Machoke's fairly impressive physical defense stat when factoring in Eviolite also separates it from bulky fighting types such as Yama and even Throh, not to mention that the decrease in teams stacking Fighting type resists due to Sawk and Gurdurr's absence also helps Machoke out greatly. rozes and I built a team pairing T-wave spam alongside Dynamic Punch Machoke, and it really showed it's value in test games. I'll edit in replays as I gather them, but yeah Machoke is cool and honestly underrated go and check it out *_*

 

[Raseri]

going to keep my arguments short because i want to drop a lot of things :o

Haunter from B+ to B

This thing is OK, but its hard to justify as a ghost type over Mismagius and Rotom. Its main niche is Sludge Bomb to break megadino. I know I was originally one of the people who hyped it up, but as MAudino moves to more offensive sets, the ability for Haunter to check it diminishes. It's still a neato offensive Ghost, but doesn't bring nearly as much to a team as other pokemon in B+

Pelipper from B+ to B

I hate posting this, but Pelipper just isnt as good anymore :( Zard dropping and Sawk leaving make it even more difficult to justify using Pelipper on a team. It is still one of the most reliable Defoggers, but it doesn't check as much, and Mantine's spdef is looking nicer and nicer every day. The main things it beat just moved up haha

Electivire from B to like C+ or something

idk this mon is just subpar. Not bulky enough to be a great pivot, not quite strong enough to be an elite wallbreaker. If it had Gunk Shot I would love it, but its a free switch in for MDino which is not good rn. It can check some rotom sets and lanturn most of the time, but otherwise I would almost always want a different electric type over it. Subpar Pokemon

Golurk from B to like C+ or something

Another mon I'm not a fan of. Its a SRer with a fighting immunity, but thats just not enough to justify using it on most teams imo. Most of the best Pokemon in NU just destroy this thing. It can check the other SRers like Steelix and Rhydon, but thats about it. Also losing to Kangaskhan is HUGE because thats one of the biggest reasons almost every NU team needs a normal resist.

Ninetales B -> B-

It's just kind of a subpar Fire-type. It checks the other Fire-types reasonably well, and handles stall quite well. But there are a lot of better Pokemon for those jobs. Weak to every type of hazard and having a really poor SpA stat for an offensive Pokemon just doesn't bode well for it. I think this mon got hyped up really early and we have just been too hesitant to drop it.

Kadabra B- -> C

This mon is just bad lol. Too many dark and steel types right now for it to function. Can't switch in on anything so it offers absolutely 0 defensive utility, which is something people use psychic types for. It might have a small niche on HO, but that is the only time I would ever consider using it.

Altaria C+ -> C-

use sliggoo lol

Sandslash C+ -> C-

big drop, but I haven't seen this used effectively in over 6 months. Its just so hard to justify using. Almost all the spinblockers can handle it if they run Colbur Berry. It can't set up SR and spin on the same set without having major problems, and its stats just arent quite enough to handle the big physical attackers. Sandslash is just a subpar choice right now

Cryogonal C -> D

rly bad spinner that doesnt fit on most builds and is so easily overwhelmed its not even funny. It beats the ghost types but good luck actually getting it in on anything!


Mons to go from D -> E
Kricketune - bad webs setter and webs are bad lol. Use leavanny,
Leafeon -> No real niche as a grass type anymore, SD Scep is better. I guess Leafeon can use a bulky set but thats still not enough
Lickilicky -> I tried offensive out and it was OK, but not enough to deserve a rank. MDino is better in almost every way. And other normal types make better offensive attackers
Murkrow -> sub par pokemon even with Evio. Outdone as prankster twaver by liepard and volbeat. No real niche and would never use on a serious team
Zebstrika -> i guess sap sipper is OK, but its piss weak and checks almost nothing defensively. No real niche and would never use on a serious team.

Also a special C- -> E
Sawsbuck. Its a Leafeon that can check Sceptile a bit better but still loses. Other than that it has nothing over it haha. No niche at all.

 

[tmacbalanced]

I really agree with the nominations Raseri especially the ones below because I've used these pokemon a lot and they have been pretty tough to use.

Pelipper can be warn down very easily and some pokemon like Hariyama can lure it with stone edge and/or guts for the scald burn. Sure thick fat is preferred over guts but guts honestly is a good ability to use sometimes for wallbreaking. Its typing is decent though as there aren't many popular rock/electric types in NU or rock/electric coverage. And roost does help out with the sr weakness.

Electivire is that awesome looking pokemon that just has really weird stat distribution. It wants to go physical but it's STAB move isn't all that great in this metagame and doesn't have enough power behind it. It's not like Kangaskhan's scrappy double edge or Swellow's Boomburst. It also suffers from a weird speed tier but it can be a nice stop to rotom's volturn shenanigans and it's movepool is okay but definitely not great so, C+ may be a bit harsh.

Ninetales also suffers from a weird speed tier, sure it's hard to find a counter to great movepool but sometimes it doesn't matter as some don't have to switch, can just tank the 2HKO and knock it out or outspeed it and knock it out. It's great for late game though due to that movepool.

And there isn't really much to say about Cryogonal, it just sucks. Beating ghost types is pretty good though.

I did want to make a nom of my own though. Articuno from B to B-. It's hard to justify this as a good special attacker/pivot with Charizard/fire spam coming into play as well as Steelix being on a 1/3 of teams, there's also sceptile is goes mixed sometimes with the occasional rock slide for Charizard. Not only that, a lot of hazard removal pokes have not been as good lately and I've used Hitmonchan + Articuno and it's okay I guess. Articuno is still good but it definitely doesn't function as well it used too.

 

[Punchshroom]

Haunter from B+ to B

This thing is OK, but its hard to justify as a ghost type over Mismagius and Rotom. Its main niche is Sludge Bomb to break megadino. I know I was originally one of the people who hyped it up, but as MAudino moves to more offensive sets, the ability for Haunter to check it diminishes. It's still a neato offensive Ghost, but doesn't bring nearly as much to a team as other pokemon in B+

Rotom and Magius may be better Ghost-types (and honestly I question comparing Magius to Haunter in a strict sense), but Haunter is still really difficult to safely switch into for anyone who doesn't have a Skuntank, and Haunter has its ways around the latter. Its power and dual STABs are very nice for just crippling / punching holes into teams while barely requiring prediction, and although its bulk is awful, it can still take advantage of the numerous Poison-types in the tier. Should definitely not drop from B+.

Agree with pretty much everything else ras said tho.

C- to D

So far the only niche this thing has is that it offers the most immediately powerful (accurate) physical Water STAB in the tier. However, when its competition doesn't lag behind very much in terms of power while offering far more to the table, there is very little reason to consider Basculin at all. Like Swanna and Frogadier, Basculin's core issue lies in it not being fast enough to justify its paper thin bulk, although Frogadier manages to compensate with its several unique qualities. Basuclin's role as a physical Water-type holepuncher isn't really hard to come by, with the biggest competitor being Kabutops, which is far more equipped than Basculin at dealing with most of the tier's Water resists thanks to its helpful additional STAB. Basculin primarily operates via a hit-and-run playstyle which it frankly isn't very good at considering it cannot switch into pretty much any attack; Kabutops not only has the decency to resist Normal + Flying and quad resist Fire, but even has Swords Dance for better holepunching and cleaning potential.

B- to C- or D (should be E long ago smh)

This thing has been overhyped for way too long. WHOO STRONGEST FREEZE-DRY IN THE TIER BABY. Yeah and Kingler has the strongest physical Water STAB in the tier (stronger than Basculin!) and look where it's at. I compared Vanilluxe to Cryogonal last time, but I realized that a better comparison would be to Lapras, who is residing in C+. Yes, the power gap between their Freeze-Drys is still pretty large (~10% difference in power), but their Freeze-Drys net similiar KOes so that is one advantage lost. Vanilluze sits in a better Speed tier, but nearly all the mons that reside within that Speed tier are either Pokemon Vanilluxe cannot KO / loses to or cannot beat Lapras, the lone exceptions being Ludicolo and Stone Edge Barbaracle. Meanwhile, Lapras pretty much has Vanilluxe's entire offensive movepool (including Ice Shard if you're willing to make use of that; it's only ~4% weaker than Vanilluxe's), plus STAB Hydro Pump which not only eclipses Flash Cannon, but also lets it hurt Freeze-Dry resists for substantially more damage than whatever Vanilluxe has to offer, bar Explosion. Lapras even has defensive utility, namely being able to freely switch into the Scalds of the mons it wants to Freeze-Dry and being able to stand up to Aurorus.

All Vanilluxe really offers over Lapras are negligibly stronger Freeze-Dry and insignificantly higher Speed tier, compared to Lapras's actually relevant advantages in its superior movepool and resistances. Anything else Vanilluxe has leaves it completely eclipsed; Jynx has a stronger Ice Beam (and Speed tier and movepool and everything) if that's what you're looking for, while Rock Polish Regice and even Aurorus should be considered for your Speed-boosting Ice-type sweeper first. WHY THE FUCK IS THIS THING STILL HERE (and so high at that)

 

[erisia]

Nom nom noms.

B > B-: Disagree: Weakness to Stealth Rock is an issue that most Fire-types have, and I don't think Ninetales is directly outclassed by any of them because it's a setup sweeper rather than a straight-up wallbreaker or revenge killer like Magmortar or Pyroar. Its lack of power is pretty bad, but getting a Flash Fire boost from switching into Will-O-Wisps and Fire Blasts helps it somewhat, and being outright immune to Fire Blast is great. Also, Hariyama is even more common than ever and Ninetales just ruins it with Psyshock. Sceptile probably made it a little worse but Sceptile makes almost every offensive Pokémon worse.

C > D: Disagree: I feel like NU's relationship with Cryogonal has gone too far the other way now. Yes it has a terrible defense stat and not a lot of resists, but aside from that it actually has a lot of attributes that no other spinner in NU has, namely base 105 Speed and STAB Ice Beam / Freeze Dry. If you want a spinner on an offensive team and don't want to use Hitmonchan, Cryogonal is the next best pick, and being able to switch into dangerous wallbreakers like as Aurorus is also great. Yada yada Sceptile, but if it doesn't run Rock Slide or a physical set, Cryogonal can beat it too.

A- > B+: Agree: I'm not a fan of Rotom-Fan any more (hurrhurrhurr), mostly because Rotom's extra Speed and outright immunity to Fighting-type attacks (as well as spinblocking capabilities) are much more useful than Rotom-Fan's increased bulk, SpA, and Air Slash in general. Hex is such a strong move in this tier and Air Slash is much more situational in its utility, especially now that Sawk and Gurdurr have left. Lure sets are also pretty ineffective because everyone knows about Will-O-Wisp etc because of Rotom's proliferation. That said, it's still a good defensive pivot for some teams that appreciate Rotom-Fan's different set of resistances, so I don't think it should drop further than B+.

B- > E: Agree: As much as I love ice cream, I don't see why you'd ever want to use this over any other Ice-type. Cryogonal is actually better due to its better Speed tier, Lapras is a far better wallbreaker that provides more defensive utility to a team (it even gets an Ice Shard of similar power and doesn't use it despite having a worse Speed tier, which should tell you something about Vanilluxe's limited movepool). Regice also outclasses it in general too, outside of Freeze Dry. Oh, and Weather Ball is ass, Lapras is a much better Ice-type on a Rain-team due to STAB Hydro Pump (and even then why are you running Lapras on a Rain team). This thing is basically a trap for new users at the moment.

 

[DavidDMS]

Musharna A+ to S

Honestly, this thing deserves S rank as of now. Skuntank is basically the only thing that can handle CM with Signal Beam. Status assists in getting rid of your own Pokemon, and some run Heal Bell on their movesets. Powerful Knock Offs are not common in NU, and I feel Musharna can take advantage of this with its wonderful bulk.

Metang D to E

Steelix is in NU lol. Why would you ever use this.

 

[AJB]

Musharna A+ to S

Honestly, this thing deserves S rank as of now. Skuntank is basically the only thing that can handle CM with Signal Beam. Status assists in getting rid of your own Pokemon, and some run Heal Bell on their movesets. Powerful Knock Offs are not common in NU, and I feel Musharna can take advantage of this with its wonderful bulk.

Metang D to E

Steelix is in NU lol. Why would you ever use this.

In regards to Metang, while not the greatest pokemon it definitely has a niche over Steelix. Metang is a great switch in to special Sceptile, as even EQ fails to 2HKO and has been dropping in popularity anyway. Metang also handles Psychics such as Grumpig and Jynx far more effectively than Lix, as it's typing leaves it less vulnerable to coverage options like Focus Blast. Metang also has access to Pursuit to trap said Psychics and even weakened offensive Pokemon. Overall, Metang isn't the best pokemon around but it's niches over other Steel types such as Steelix should keep it in D.

Calcs

0 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 109-130 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Eviolite Metang: 45-53 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Eviolite Metang: 79-94 (24.3 - 29%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Grumpig Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Eviolite Metang: 74-88 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 51% chance to 4HKO

 

[DavidDMS]

In regards to Metang, while not the greatest pokemon it definitely has a niche over Steelix. Metang is a great switch in to special Sceptile, as even EQ fails to 2HKO and has been dropping in popularity anyway. Metang also handles Psychics such as Grumpig and Jynx far more effectively than Lix, as it's typing leaves it less vulnerable to coverage options like Focus Blast. Metang also has access to Pursuit to trap said Psychics and even weakened offensive Pokemon. Overall, Metang isn't the best pokemon around but it's niches over other Steel types such as Steelix should keep it in D.

Calcs

0 Atk Life Orb Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 109-130 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Eviolite Metang: 45-53 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Eviolite Metang: 79-94 (24.3 - 29%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Grumpig Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Eviolite Metang: 74-88 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 51% chance to 4HKO

Dang. I didn't even realize this stuff. Thank you very much! :D

 

[kay]

Well I had this whole Metang response written out but Aurosis summed it up well enough.

As for Musharna to S, we actually have a lot more mons in NU then Skuntank that can take on Signal Beam Mushrna such as Toxic Steelix, Toxic Mantine, and even things like SD Scyther and Rotom who can still deal with Musharna even after a few Calm Minds. Basically any mon with Taunt/ Toxic/ Encore can shut down Musharna. It even lost an insanely valuable use in being a dead stop to Sawk for teams. I don't think it's exactly an S rank mon.



Now with that being said that leads me to my own nomination -

Duosion Unranked ---> C/C+
This mon is really a product of the meta right now. With the removal of Sawk and the departure of Gurdurr, Duosion finds itself in a tier where most fighting types aren't carrying Knock Off which allows it to take on Fighting types such as Hitmonchan and Primape. Before you were forced into running Musharna due to the the pressure Sawk put on building, but now with it gone you can branch out and run this and it isn't over shadowed, it even has some amazing niches over Musharna.

Currently, one of the best stops to CM Musharna is Toxic from things like Mantine and Steelix as majority of Musharna do not carry heal bell, so no matter the set it will always limit the Musharna. This is a trend Duosion is able to abuse as it doesn't care for status users due to Magic Guard. It will fall easier under heavy offensive pressure, but if let alone for a turn or two it can get extremely bulky thanks to Acid Armor and Calm Mind. This thing is a nightmare for defensive teams to deal with and I think it's extremely viable in today's meta thanks to the meta shifts we've recently had.

EDIT: Shouts to rozes for using it in SPL

 

[Cased]

Just a few things I'm curious of what other people think. Tried talking to rozes / soulgazer about it but it seems that Indians and large Canadians only know how to say "Idk D:"

A- > B+: I think even without the Sawk ban, Vileplume looks a lot less attractive to me right now. It's still good, just not A- level. I think its use still has merits, but right now it's tough to use effectively due to 4MSS, people prepping a lot more for Grass-types, and an increase in threats that effectively beat it (Zard, Sliggo, Abomasnow, Weezing). Synthesis / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb are three staples, then the choices of HP Ground, Fire, or Worry Seed follow that up. tl;dr Worry Seed/Gastro Acid allows Vileplume to beat Malamar/Sliggo, hnnng fuck Sap Sipper. Being 2hko'd by HP Ice from Sceptile is a large deal, especially when you're taking a lot more damage from physical attacks (i.e standard Steelix Heavy Slam, Kanga D-Edge, Tauros Rock Climb) if you create a mixed defensive EV Spread, it becomes tough to use. Is it still a solid Pokemon? Yeah without a doubt, but I'm just sure it is currently an A- Pokemon right now.

B- > B: I guess this is just kind of a nitpick, but seriously a majority of set-up sweepers just straight up lose to this thing. While it can function as a balanced/stall win condition with Curse, it can also run a more of a support set with Encore/Toxic and things of that nature instead of Curse. I prefer Max Def or near close to that, being able to switch into things like Archeops (Which doesn't run Taunt nearly as often) and Tauros, two of the more forgotten threats with Sceptile and Fire-types being the main offensive threats people tend to worry about nowadays. Also with SpD, this can check CM Psychics as well, which is pretty neat. I think that B+ is where it should be but I understand than what people make it out to be (beats 80% of set-up sweepers in the tier!).

B+ > A-/A: I find it surprising that Skunk is so low on this chart. It has a plethora of effective moves it uses well, and imo, has the most reliable Defog in the entire tier. While its Defog is heavily pressured by a majority of Stealth Rockers, the Shuca berry set with Dark Pulse / Hidden Power Grass / Fire Blast threatens probably 80-85% of hazard setters in the current tier. The Sucker Punch / Pursuit set is great at pivoting into a plethora of attacks and stopping Psychic-types in their tracks way more often than not. Also has the ability to invest in more bulk than the aforementioned set. With Lum / trapping mindgames, Skunk is able to pressure so many offensive threats in the current tier with Sucker Punch / Pursuit, not even mentioning Taunt and a filler slot to help it against whatever it wants. Aftermath is neat, doesn't play much into its effectiveness, I just think it's neat :3.

B -> B+/A-: I just think Piloswine is so insanely good right now, while I experimented with Max Special Defense to check Fire-types and surprisingly tank things like Life Orb Leaf Storm from Sceptile, any real EV spread works out for Piloswine for what you want it to do. Max Attack is really strong, and Ground/Ice is such good coverage in general, esp. in NU. Ice Shard to revenge common offensive threats like Sceptile, Swellow, and Archeops is awesome as well. Having super-effective STAB against Xatu is great as well, unlike a few Stealth Rock Pokemon who struggle to reliably set Rocks against a team with Xatu.

There's other shit I disagree with slightly but most people have brought it up, mainly stuff like Rampardos and Lanturn being low in their own ways, also Swanna/Frogadier are good, Scarf Frogadier is the goat,,,

 

[shiloh]

Just a few things I'm curious of what other people think. Tried talking to rozes / soulgazer about it but it seems that Indians only know how to say "Idk D:"

A- > B+: I think even without the Sawk ban, Vileplume looks a lot less attractive to me right now. It's still good, just not A- level. I think its use still has merits, but right now it's tough to use effectively due to 4MSS, people prepping a lot more for Grass-types, and an increase in threats that effectively beat it (Zard, Sliggo, Abomasnow, Weezing). Synthesis / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb are three staples, then the choices of HP Ground, Fire, or Worry Seed follow that up. tl;dr Worry Seed/Gastro Acid allows Vileplume to beat Malamar/Sliggo, hnnng fuck Sap Sipper. Being 2hko'd by HP Ice from Sceptile is a large deal, especially when you're taking a lot more damage from physical attacks (i.e standard Steelix Heavy Slam, Kanga D-Edge, Tauros Rock Climb) if you create a mixed defensive EV Spread, it becomes tough to use. Is it still a solid Pokemon? Yeah without a doubt, but I'm just sure it is currently an A- Pokemon right now.

B- > B: I guess this is just kind of a nitpick, but seriously a majority of set-up sweepers just straight up lose to this thing. While it can function as a balanced/stall win condition with Curse, it can also run a more of a support set with Encore/Toxic and things of that nature instead of Curse. I prefer Max Def or near close to that, being able to switch into things like Archeops (Which doesn't run Taunt nearly as often) and Tauros, two of the more forgotten threats with Sceptile and Fire-types being the main offensive threats people tend to worry about nowadays. Also with SpD, this can check CM Psychics as well, which is pretty neat. I think that B+ is where it should be but I understand than what people make it out to be (beats 80% of set-up sweepers in the tier!).

B+ > A-/A: I find it surprising that Skunk is so low on this chart. It has a plethora of effective moves it uses well, and imo, has the most reliable Defog in the entire tier. While its Defog is heavily pressured by a majority of Stealth Rockers, the Shuca berry set with Dark Pulse / Hidden Power Grass / Fire Blast threatens probably 80-85% of hazard setters in the current tier. The Sucker Punch / Pursuit set is great at pivoting into a plethora of attacks and stopping Psychic-types in their tracks way more often than not. Also has the ability to invest in more bulk than the aforementioned set. With Lum / trapping mindgames, Skunk is able to pressure so many offensive threats in the current tier with Sucker Punch / Pursuit, not even mentioning Taunt and a filler slot to help it against whatever it wants. Aftermath is neat, doesn't play much into its effectiveness, I just think it's neat :3.

B -> B+/A-: I just think Piloswine is so insanely good right now, while I experienced with Max Special Defense to check Fire-types and surprisingly tank things like Life Orb Leaf Storm from Sceptile, any real EV spread works out for Piloswine for what you want it to do. Max Attack is really strong, and Ground/Ice is such good coverage in general, esp. in NU. Ice Shard to revenge common offensive threats like Sceptile, Swellow, and Archeops is awesome as well. Having super-effective STAB against Xatu is great as well, unlike a few Stealth Rock Pokemon who struggle to reliably set Rocks against a team with Xatu.

There's other shit I disagree with slightly but most people have brought it up, mainly stuff like Rampardos and Lanturn being low in their own ways, also Swanna/Frogadier are good, Scarf Frogadier is the goat,,,

idk D:

**C -> C+

Weird nom but I really do think Gogoat is deserving of a little bump up in the VR. I originally thought of using this when I played waters Week 8 and it got three kills. Its extremely bulky on both sides especially with Bulky Up, and has the offensive stats to back it up. The spread I run has enough speed for standard Skuntank + Magmortar and is able to OHKO both of them after a Bulk Up with Earthquake. Its great coverage of Horn Leech / Earthquake / Rock Slide means it has basically no switch ins, and can only be revenge killed. The problem w/ that is that its still incredibley bulky, being able to live things like Charcoal Fire Blast from Charizard and every move Sceptile wants to throw at it. Honestly its one of the better wallbreakers in the tier right now, and I think it should get a little bump in Viability to reflect that.

set

control (Gogoat) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Horn Leech
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

**Unranked -> B+

Ok another huge jump in viability, but this one mainly comes due to the departure of two great fighting types in NU, Sawk and Gurdurr. Throh is probably one of the better replacements to Gurdurr to to its immense bulky + good coverage and abilities. The ability to just shuffle around entire teams with Circle Throw is amazing, and allows it to get chip damage off on all of its checks like Scyther / Weezing. It has two main sets in the meta right now, Bulk Up and Two Attacks. Both have merits and both take advantage of teams with only 1-2 Fighting Checks like the majority of teams now. Here is a video aim made using a team I passed him and in basically every game Throh plays a major part. It being unranked right now is a huge travesty, and it should honestly be bumped up to B if not B+.

set

Throh @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Knock Off / Bulk Up

 

[boltsandbombers]

Back at ya with a fresh new update!

Rises:
Piloswine B -> B+
Duosion Unranked -> C
Machoke Unranked -> D 
Throh Unranked -> C+

Drops:
Vileplume A- -> B+
Pelipper B+ -> B
Articuno B -> B-
Electivire B -> B-
Golurk B -> C+
Ninetales B -> B-
Kadabra B- -> C
Sandslash C+ -> C-
Vanilluxe B- -> C+
Altaria C+ -> C
Basculin C- -> D
Cryogonal C -> C-
Sawsbuck C- > E
Kricketune D -> E
Leafeon D -> E
Zebstrika D -> E
Lickilicky D -> E
Murkrow D -> E

Nominations we didn't follow through with:

Musharna A+ -> S
Lanturn A- --> A
Quagsire B- -> B
Gogoat C -> C+
Vigoroth D -> C-
Haunter B+ -> B

Lanturn, Gogoat, and Haunter were all very close votes (hence why they did not go through), so use those as discussion points for the next update. If it hasn't been stated earlier, the general precedent we have for the VR decisions is to follow through with nominations that have a clear majority in the voting, and in this particular case these three previously mentioned Pokemon didn't get a ton of discussion in the thread itself so more arguments for one side or other other would be appreciated to help us decide.

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah I ain't letting up on Vanilluxe until I see it in the E Ranks, or better yet not see it on the ranks at all, where it belongs. Keeping it in C+ implies it is better than C mons like Beheeyem, Carracosta, Kadabra (which previously occupied the same rank as Vanilluxe in B-), Stoutland, etc. is laughable; hell, pretty much all of the C- Rank mons have at least more merit to be placed on a team than Vanilluxe. For real though, why are we so insistent on keeping this thing ranked? "Ampharos syndrome"?

C- to C

So I was looking through the Rankings again and stumbled upon this. Considering it heavily competes with Guts Swellow and Archeops when it comes to the holepunching front and has lacking Speed in comparison, I concluded that the primary reason this is even ranked would be for its Choice Scarf set, something the competing birds cannot pull off. Then I pondered again and realized that a powerful Scarf Brave Bird isn't even that terrible in NU to begin with. It faces mild competition from Scarf Scyther, but Dodrio hits much harder than Scyther (Brave Bird hits ~21% harder than Tech AAce, and Return does 9% more), which makes it a more effective cleaner, while also not needing hazard control nearly as badly. It still has useful tools like Knock Off to cripple resists and Pursuit to chase fleeing foes and/or ensure KOes. Considering the resurgence of Scarfers since Sceptile's inception, being above the cut in Speed against most of those Scarfers while still retaining ample power against most non-bulky Pokemon (Scyther tends to suffer in this aspect) could warrant a rise for Dodrio here.

Meanwhile gonna shamelessly c/p QQ's nom here, made before Sawk and Gurdurr left:

Rotom-Fan -> B+

This is going to sound really weird, but why is this A- lol? Almost everything this want to do, base Rotom does better. Being slower is not a benefit right now, because you're still competing with the same pokemon, and even worse sets like Scarf rotom manages to outspeed more relevant mons like +2 oma. Hexwisp rotom is also a better bulky mon than defensive rotom-fan, because you can still invest a bunch in offensive power since your typing gets you immunities rather than resists. Literally the only thing this has going for it is the flying stab, and even that isn't worth much when shadow ball/hex can hit almost everything just ask hard. Rotom-fan is just outclassed by its own forme right now, and the rankings should probably reflect that.

The loss of two prominent targets that Rotom-S could check/revenge more effectively than Rotom only served to hurt its standing. Rotom's typing offers many similar resists but lacking the Stealth Rock weakness, and Rotom-S does not have the insane damage potential that Rotom has with its STAB Hex. Due to this, Rotom-S is largely relegated to a more defensive role, with its Grass resistance helping it combat the massive threat that is Sceptile, but even then its SR weakness can get in the way of it walling things properly. A drop to B+ seems plausible for Rotom-S.

 

[Blast]

Hello I use Vanilluxe a decent bit and I think you guys are really overexaggerating its lack of a niche over other Ice-types. I'm mostly neutral on its current rank and wouldn't be opposed to dropping it to C, but it's far from this laughably unthinkable piece of shit you're making it out to be.

The power difference between Vanilluxe and Lapras isn't 10%, it's about 17% if they're holding the same item, and this power difference is definitely notable with Ice Beam against neutral targets (since Water-types aren't your only targets), which is a big reason no one ever runs LO Lapras. LO Vanilluxe and Specs Lapras have roughly the same power, but the Choice lock comes with its own set of problems. Also, the reason Lapras doesn't use Ice Shard is because it can't afford a) the power loss from LO, b) the recoil, and c) a Defense-hindering nature. Vanilluxe doesn't suffer from these problems nearly as much, so it can actually afford to run Ice Shard. And speaking of which, Ice Shard isn't used because Vanilluxe's movepool is just "that" bad, it's used because it's a good move to have. Being able to actually check a weakened Sceptile (plus Archeops, Vivillon, Lilligant, Swellow, etc) instead of the other way around probably speaks for itself. I also don't think outspeeding Ludicolo + Barbaracle + positive-nature Abomasnow is "insignificant" but w/e I digress.

Now of course I'm aware that Lapras's Water resistance and Water STAB are huge advantages of their own, and honestly I'm not even arguing Vanilluxe is better than Lapras, but I see much more reason for Lapras to just rise than for Vanilluxe to go to E or something, lol. Not having a Choice lock and providing a soft check to lots of scary fast threats are perfectly valid niches, and even if Lapras has better coverage, Vanilluxe's coverage is still solid as a standalone mon (idk why anyone's bringing up random moves like Weather Ball, it just uses Ice Beam | Freeze Dry | Ice Shard | [Explosion/HP Ground] which is perfectly fine). I don't even think dropping it one more rank is out of the question, but dropping it off the list altogether is.

 

[Deej Dy]

After complaining that Charizard isn't worth of A+ rank for a week in chat and no one really disagreeing, I figured I'd ask for it to drop. To be honest I don't even think it should be A. A- seems more appropriate. My reasons are below.

- Pyroar is better.

- No really, Pyroar is better. It's faster, takes less SR damage and its coverage STAB outside of Fire blast isn't only 75 BP. Did I mention that the female lion has a different avatar? Sure, Zard has more variability in sets, but most (if not all) of them are worse than the LO set (I liked the D-dance at first, but now I realize it's not so great ;/)

- It's a real pain to teambuild with and part of A rank definition is the degree of "splashability" it has on teams. Zard has about as much splashability as a rock.

- Once the BW2 Nostalgia boner wears off you realize its bad.


I know this is short and meme-y, but I really do think it should drop.


Also Shaneghoul wants Pawniard to rise.

 

[Punchshroom]

The power difference between Vanilluxe and Lapras isn't 10%, it's about 17% if they're holding the same item, and this power difference is definitely notable with Ice Beam against neutral targets (since Water-types aren't your only targets), which is a big reason no one ever runs LO Lapras.

On the other hand, there's also a huge reason why Vanilluxe itself hasn't been seen in once in two blue moons. If Life Orb Lapras is as bad as you make it out to be, Vanilluxe must surely be faring even worse by comparison. This was like the whole deal with Ampharos being ranked for its Agility set, even though Lanturn does it fundamentally better and yet is never seen using it, which should tell you about how viable Agility Amph is (its recent fate in the VR is apparent enough). Yes, this would imply Vanilluxe is strictly worse than LO Lapras. You know why?

LO Vanilluxe and Specs Lapras have roughly the same power, but the Choice lock comes with its own set of problems. Also, the reason Lapras doesn't use Ice Shard is because it can't afford a) the power loss from LO, b) the recoil, and c) a Defense-hindering nature. Vanilluxe doesn't suffer from these problems nearly as much, so it can actually afford to run Ice Shard. And speaking of which, Ice Shard isn't used because Vanilluxe's movepool is just "that" bad, it's used because it's a good move to have. Being able to actually check a weakened Sceptile (plus Archeops, Vivillon, Lilligant, Swellow, etc) instead of the other way around probably speaks for itself.

Lapras's Hydro Pump hits harder than Vanilluxe's Ice Beam, so Lapras not only doesn't falter in terms of neutral power, but also has far better neutral coverage. And how are the latter two disadvantages reasons to justify using Vanilluxe over LO Lapras? It's not like Vanilluxe has any easier of a time dealing with those issues, and Lapras even has ways to slightly circumvent those problems with Water Absorb and its special bulk, respectively, while Vanilluxe has none of those. As for Ice Shard, I see no reason why Lapras shouldn't consider it when it is only ~4% weaker than Vanilluxe's (assuming Lapras is also LO), and you're not using Vanilluxe's Ice Shard to OHKO things so much as pick off weakened targets, so the miniscule power difference hardly matters there. Besides, if you really wanted a souped up Ice Shard while still having anti-Water qualities, Abomasnow is always an option.

Btw, you're right that the power difference between Lapras and Vanilluxe's similiar moves are larger than was advertised (apparently I miscalced somewhere), but my earlier point still stands: the power difference between their Freeze-Drys is largely irrelevant when they nab mostly the same KOes, and in events that Lapras's Ice Beam fails when Vanilluxe's Ice Beam would succeed, Lapras can just fall back on Hydro Pump, which also makes Lapras more difficult to wall.

Now of course I'm aware that Lapras's Water resistance and Water STAB are huge advantages of their own, and honestly I'm not even arguing Vanilluxe is better than Lapras, but I see much more reason for Lapras to just rise than for Vanilluxe to go to E or something, lol. Not having a Choice lock and providing a soft check to lots of scary fast threats are perfectly valid niches, and even if Lapras has better coverage, Vanilluxe's coverage is still solid as a standalone mon (idk why anyone's bringing up random moves like Weather Ball, it just uses Ice Beam | Freeze Dry | Ice Shard | [Explosion/HP Ground] which is perfectly fine). I don't even think dropping it one more rank is out of the question, but dropping it off the list altogether is.

It doesn't really matter how solid a mon's coverage is or how solid its sets are on paper if it is hopelessly outclassed by the competition. I was thinking about naming this "Ampharos, Ursaring, and Vanilluxe syndrome", but that name's too long.

So people have been hyping up Throh recently, and I can see why considering the decrease in competition for a Fighting slot, and perhaps something to fill in the void left by Gurdurr (hint: nothing can really fit in Gurdurr's shoes). For a bulky boosting mon, it's bulky on both ends, can hit decently hard (especially with Guts), and can phaze; what's not to love? The problem I have with Throh is its presence until the very late-game is rather poor. Throh requires a lot of things not just weakened, but out of the way entirely in order to even begin sweeping: this includes Ghost-types, Psychic-types, most Flying-types, certain Poison-types, Fairies (there aren't many, but all of them cause untold pain for Throh), and the occasional special nuke your opponent may have. Until then, all Throh can really do is phaze, which can be a problem in itself when Throh actively invites in most hazard removers upon stepping into the field. Throh's insufficient number of resistances and reliance on RestTalk to remain healthy also make it awkward to utilize whenever it is not boosting for game. Compared to other bulky boosting RestTalkers, such as Malamar, MAudino, and Sliggoo, Throh requires more preparations and doesn't offer as much defensive utility. Meanwhile, any other set Throh wants to do usually leaves it outclassed by its brethren, namely Hariyama and Poliwrath. C+ seems like a good fit for Throh for now.

Edit: MaroGod here enlightened me on the possibility of an offensive BU + 3 attacks Throh with Storm Throw, Knock Off, and most notably Zen Headbutt. With Guts, this makes Throh into an interesting corebreaker, though it would still be hindered by bad Speed, lack of priority, and tendency to get worn down, and Guts Yama can still give this competition. I wouldn't object against a rise to B-.

- It's a real pain to teambuild with and part of A rank definition is the degree of "splashability" it has on teams. Zard has about as much splashability as a rock.

......Looks pretty splashable to me.

 

[MaroGod]

Im heavily on side with Punchshroom when it comes to Vanilluxe all you two have done is compare Lapras+Vanilluxe but isnt about time acknowledging every other Ice-Type avalable? Of course different roles all around but who honestly considers Vanilluxe over Articuno,Jynx,Aurorus,Cryogonal,Regice,Abomasnow and Rotom-F? Again yes different roles all around but when it comes to an Ice-Type rarely will there be more then one and in near every single situation given when have you ever felt like out if all the options you needed a Vanilluxe? Its a fun mon but come on realistically its just straight outclassed and worthless considering the competition.

To not make this a straight Vanilluxe bash my thoughts also on Throh.

When Gurdurr+Sawk were gone i was in chat mentioned Throh and the massive discussion began (at the time had no idea of its not being ranked) playing around with it honestly its a pretty nice mon despite taking the fighting slot. Its phazer set for defensive/hazard stack teams is solid and is great against other set-up sweepers (previously mentioned by Punchshroom bar MAudino) which can generally be troubling ive also enjoyed offensive BU+3 Attacks being Storm Throw,Knock Off,Zen Headbutt which makes for an overall decent Early/Midgame breaker and has the ability to do serious damage as well as open up for strong nukes/cleaners when its done. In the end personally for me i feel its B- or C+ and hopefully could go higher in the future depending on how the suspect goes.

Camerupt to C+
I personally don't understand why this is in B- i know Rotom is a big threat and all+it can make a powerful wallbreaker but i just find it pretty disapointing in practice its very easily worn down if SpD and rarely makes good use through out a game were id just prefer something else and it becomes more of a check for Special attackers and id end up sacking it or the pokemon im currently in with and as for wallbreaker yes it can be devistating but i feel like i could just use Mag or Pyroar even Charizard and get the same results.

 

[tmacbalanced]

I agree with Chariard going to A-. So to go into more detail than Deej without the memes lol I've heard that bulky sd zard with wisp, acro, and roost is it's best set. Another good set being sd, roost, eq, and acro, as well as, the choice specs set and special attacking LO set.
This may sound weird but I want to compare the no item Acrobatics SD set with Archeops. First of all, it is MAD HARD to pull of a swords dance with this poke because of stealth rocks, how easily it can be pressured, and how easy it can be revenge killed. I prefer Archeops because of it's immediate power, sure it has defeatist but at least it has a better speed tier and can sort of pull off roost too. It may not have as good as bulk as zard does but it doesn't really matter as zard can be weakened way too easily and be knocked out just as easy because of that. Sure it can wisp but it doesn't really matter all that much when some physical attackers run lum and can boost up, have toxic, or like rhydon and can just knock it out anyways with a stone edge. And at least Archeops can threaten opposing pokemon out so it can roost up, and it does have it's utilities just like zard does with defog and stealth rocks.
And other fire types can boast better power as well, like magmortar though it may suffer poor speed but at least it can flame charge up to fix that problem and it boasts as better bulky fire type. Combusken can just protect and boost with speed boost, has better bulk due to eviolite and isn't as weak to rocks with it's fighting typing so it can pull off a better wisp. And it can baton pass speed boosts. And as Deej Dy stated before, Pyroar is just flat out better, I mean sure zard handles hariyama better than pyroar can but at least pyroar handles a lot of other stuff better due to a better speed tier and a better second STAB. And it can be outclassed by ninetales as ninetales handles hariyama even better and has a better movepool as well as nasty plot. Also, Swellow is a better specs user without flying STAB and it doesn't have to worry about locks as much as it can rely on u-turn and BOOMburst 2HKOs most of the tier.
Also, even if Sceptile leaves, I would still stand by this as other fast pokemon will come out of the works that can take on Charizard. Such as Floatzel and maybe Zebstrika to a certain degree (I remember it being decent before Sceptile came) and both can easily take on Charizard.
Also, I would say that Charizard is the most difficult SD, Fire type, flying type, special attacker, etc. to support. I just feel like it's outclassed in every way.

 

[Shadestep]

After complaining that Charizard isn't worth of A+ rank for a week in chat and no one really disagreeing, I figured I'd ask for it to drop. To be honest I don't even think it should be A. A- seems more appropriate. My reasons are below.

- Pyroar is better.

- No really, Pyroar is better. It's faster, takes less SR damage and its coverage STAB outside of Fire blast isn't only 75 BP. Did I mention that the female lion has a different avatar? Sure, Zard has more variability in sets, but most (if not all) of them are worse than the LO set (I liked the D-dance at first, but now I realize it's not so great ;/)

- It's a real pain to teambuild with and part of A rank definition is the degree of "splashability" it has on teams. Zard has about as much splashability as a rock.

- Once the BW2 Nostalgia boner wears off you realize its bad.


I know this is short and meme-y, but I really do think it should drop.


Also Shaneghoul wants Pawniard to rise.

I definitely disagree with this. Charizard is in the right place in A+, because it has a lot more going for it than Pyroar and I think it's unfair and not right to compare it to Pyroar. Pyroar only has Specs/LO/Flame Plate, with lacking coverage.
Charizard on the other hand, has a plethora of sets that all accomplish different things and support teams in different ways. Wisp Zard punishes Steelix and Rhydon switch-ins, leaving them vulnerable for a teammate to set-up on them or them just to be weakened so that something else can sweep.
Special sets are incredibly hard to switch in to, with no real counters as Fire Blast + HP Grass + Focus Blast + Air Slash hit the entire tier and have a good chance to break through fat walls as Musharna and Mega Audino.
Zard is also more splashable than Pyroar in my opinion. it has Roost which increases its longevity by a lot (look at Scyther for example), and can - something Scyther can't - punish its switchins with a Wisp, which is incredibly useful.
Its weakness to SR is incredibly annoying, yes, but it's not that hindering that it can't do the thing it's supposed to do with SR up. it can still switch-in to most Hitmonchans with SR up and Roost off any damage dealt, while threatening it out with a powerful Acrobatics.

I know your post didn't really have a lot of arguments and I'm not sure if you really meant it but i wanted to address it seriously as I think it's one of the most solid mons on balance teams and I also don't think the Special set is the best.

 

[Mikael]

just reminding that these mons here need a dex link ;)
- Abomasnow
- Sliggo
- Camerupt
- Throh
- Altaria
- Electrode
- Machoke

 

[boltsandbombers]

just reminding that these mons here need a dex link ;)
- Abomasnow
- Sliggo
- Camerupt
- Throh
- Altaria
- Electrode
- Machoke

Linked Abomasnow, Camerupt, and Sliggoo. As for the others, Throh does not have an analysis yet, Electrode's analysis is in progress, and Machoke will not be getting an analysis unless it moves higher in the rankings.

 

[Blast]

On the other hand, there's also a huge reason why Vanilluxe itself hasn't been seen in once in two blue moons. If Life Orb Lapras is as bad as you make it out to be, Vanilluxe must surely be faring even worse by comparison. This was like the whole deal with Ampharos being ranked for its Agility set, even though Lanturn does it fundamentally better and yet is never seen using it, which should tell you about how viable Agility Amph is (its recent fate in the VR is apparent enough). Yes, this would imply Vanilluxe is strictly worse than LO Lapras. You know why?

Lapras's Hydro Pump hits harder than Vanilluxe's Ice Beam, so Lapras not only doesn't falter in terms of neutral power, but also has far better neutral coverage. And how are the latter two disadvantages reasons to justify using Vanilluxe over LO Lapras? It's not like Vanilluxe has any easier of a time dealing with those issues, and Lapras even has ways to slightly circumvent those problems with Water Absorb and its special bulk, respectively, while Vanilluxe has none of those. As for Ice Shard, I see no reason why Lapras shouldn't consider it when it is only ~4% weaker than Vanilluxe's (assuming Lapras is also LO), and you're not using Vanilluxe's Ice Shard to OHKO things so much as pick off weakened targets, so the miniscule power difference hardly matters there. Besides, if you really wanted a souped up Ice Shard while still having anti-Water qualities, Abomasnow is always an option.

Btw, you're right that the power difference between Lapras and Vanilluxe's similiar moves are larger than was advertised (apparently I miscalced somewhere), but my earlier point still stands: the power difference between their Freeze-Drys is largely irrelevant when they nab mostly the same KOes, and in events that Lapras's Ice Beam fails when Vanilluxe's Ice Beam would succeed, Lapras can just fall back on Hydro Pump, which also makes Lapras more difficult to wall.

It doesn't really matter how solid a mon's coverage is or how solid its sets are on paper if it is hopelessly outclassed by the competition. I was thinking about naming this "Ampharos, Ursaring, and Vanilluxe syndrome", but that name's too long.

Why are you acting like any of the sets you mentioned have identical playstyles? Nothing is "strictly worse" than anything unless they have the exact same roles and need the exact same teammates, which these two clearly don't share. They're different Pokemon, with different sets, niches, requirements, and pretty much everything else. So no, I'm not implying Vanilluxe fares worse than anything just because some other Ice-type can't use Life Orb very effectively. I'm implying that Vanilluxe has valid niches over all of Lapras's sets, and all the other Ice-types.

Water Absorb and high bulk are the REASONS Lapras can't afford Life Orb and Ice Shard. It's a bulky attacker that's meant to actually switch directly in on stuff and start attacking. Vanilluxe isn't, hence why it doesn't mind recoil and running a -Def/SpD nature as much. Also, Abomasnow is slower than Vanilluxe, has Snow Warning which fucks a lot of potential teammates, and stacks excessive weaknesses with Grass-types.

And like I said, I'm aware Hydro Pump is Lapras's biggest selling point, but it doesn't change Vanilluxe's advantages over it. It's not /necessary/ for Vanilluxe to have a Water STAB and immunity to be usable. Like if it really matters so much to have something that can whack common Ice resists, Explosion is fine for that. Is it BETTER than STAB Hydro Pump? No, but it doesn't have to be.

 

[Punchshroom]

Why are you acting like any of the sets you mentioned have identical playstyles? Nothing is "strictly worse" than anything unless they have the exact same roles and need the exact same teammates, which these two clearly don't share. They're different Pokemon, with different sets, niches, requirements, and pretty much everything else. So no, I'm not implying Vanilluxe fares worse than anything just because some other Ice-type can't use Life Orb very effectively. I'm implying that Vanilluxe has valid niches over all of Lapras's sets, and all the other Ice-types.

Yes yes Lapras and Vanilluxe are not the exact same Pokemon, and neither are Ursaring and Zangoose, or Kingler and Samurott, etc. Do these minuscule semantics really matter in the larger picture here, because simply being "unique" does not save a mon from being unranked around here; the existence of an E Rank to begin with is proof enough.

Water Absorb and high bulk are the REASONS Lapras can't afford Life Orb and Ice Shard. It's a bulky attacker that's meant to actually switch directly in on stuff and start attacking. Vanilluxe isn't, hence why it doesn't mind recoil and running a -Def/SpD nature as much. Also, Abomasnow is slower than Vanilluxe, has Snow Warning which fucks a lot of potential teammates, and stacks excessive weaknesses with Grass-types.

See this is what I don't understand about this: you say these are the reasons you say that Lapras cannot afford Life Orb while Vanilluxe 'can', but why even bother with Vanilluxe at all? I don't see why LO Lapras cannot operate in a similar fashion to LO Vanilluxe about not eating direct hits (albeit it takes them much better) while still having the option to switch into things, while Vanilluxe barely offers anything in return; a slightly better Speed tier to outspeed a select few Pokemon and a stronger Freeze-Dry that doesn't net much more KOes aren't reasons to warrant Vanilluxe over Lapras alone, and the other offensive Ice-types kind of overshadow it from there. In any case, if Abomasnow's Snow Warning and overlapping weaknesses with fellow Grass-types is bothersome, this still does not particularly justify Vanilluxe over Lapras. I can tell from these examples that Vanilluxe is just another "super-team-specific mon" that has to dig around for all sorts of scenarios to warrant use over its competition.

And like I said, I'm aware Hydro Pump is Lapras's biggest selling point, but it doesn't change Vanilluxe's advantages over it. It's not /necessary/ for Vanilluxe to have a Water STAB and immunity to be usable. Like if it really matters so much to have something that can whack common Ice resists, Explosion is fine for that. Is it BETTER than STAB Hydro Pump? No, but it doesn't have to be.

I don't really know what argument you're trying to make about Vanilluxe's advantages over Lapras being "intact"; just know that the Hydro Pump advantage alone overshadows whatever advantages Vanilluxe has by a huge margin. One of Vanilluxe's biggest issues is its reliance on iffy coverage moves like HP Ground and Flash Cannon to circumvent resists, or be forced to use Explosion to trade 1v1 instead of punching through cores over time, not to mention the 4MSS Vanilluxe would face by having to fit dual Ice STAB + coverage moves + Explosion + Ice Shard. Meanwhile all Lapras needs is dual STAB (which can easily include Ice Shard), which gives it fairly consistent power even if it whiffs its intended target.

But hey like if you want to keep Vanilluxe ranked so badly, might as well rerank Glalie to C Rank as well eh? Its Freeze-Dry, like Lapras's, still nets similiar KOes as Vanilluxe's, it also has Ice Shard and Explosion, it actually hits the 80 Speed tier. Hell, it has Earthquake to hit Magmortar and Super Fang to smack Hariyama; you don't even need Explosion! It gets Spikes too, so why not? Surely a Pokemon with so many "unique" advantages deserves even more credit than Vanilluxe amirite? Why not rank other things like Furfrou, Unfezant, Wigglytuff, Ariados, etc.?

But seriously though, why do we insist at keeping Vanilluxe ranked like our lives depended on it? Mons like Ampharos, Kingler, and Ursaring that could also theoretically work on paper didn't receive anywhere near as much unwarranted support. Even PU acknowledges how bad it is.

Edit: By the way...

Now of course I'm aware that Lapras's Water resistance and Water STAB are huge advantages of their own, and honestly I'm not even arguing Vanilluxe is better than Lapras, but I see much more reason for Lapras to just rise than for Vanilluxe to go to E or something, lol. Not having a Choice lock and providing a soft check to lots of scary fast threats are perfectly valid niches, and even if Lapras has better coverage, Vanilluxe's coverage is still solid as a standalone mon (idk why anyone's bringing up random moves like Weather Ball, it just uses Ice Beam | Freeze Dry | Ice Shard | [Explosion/HP Ground] which is perfectly fine). I don't even think dropping it one more rank is out of the question, but dropping it off the list altogether is.

I just realized: why even bother with HP Ground, or indeed any sort of alternative coverage on Vanilluxe at all? Isn't Vanilluxe's niche whole existence to be used simply to lure out Freeze-Dry resists, primarily Thick Fat Pokemon and AV Mortar, and blow up on them (the lone exception being Piloswine, which, hey presto, Lapras conveniently swats aside)? Anything else Vanilluxe wants to try is done better by pretty much every other Ice-type in the tier. By the way, this niche still only warrants D for Vanilluxe at the very best, though it is still very easily E worthy imo.