Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[bludz]

Gonna give my 2 cents on some of the higher ranking nominations.

Landorus-T A+ -> S [no]
I don't really agree with this, though I debated it with myself and others for a while. It's true that viability shouldn't only be determined by how a pokemon acts as a teambuilding constraint, but how they alleviate them as well, which Landorus-T does a good job of. That said, there are two things that I think prevent it from being S rank. The first is that while it's a versatile pokemon, as a defensive pokemon it really doesn't preserve the role compression of say, Clefable. Clefable's best set walls a bunch of things, supports the team with paralysis, and can set up for a sweep late game. While Landorus-T is capable of setting up Stealth Rock, checking big threats in Excadrill and Charizard X, as well as providing U-turn support, these are all characteristics of its defensive set only. Arguments have made that Lando-T can be a revenge killer or late game sweeper, and while this is true, not a single one of these sets is really an "oh damn I gotta deal with this thing" when you see it in team preview. Basically all of its sets are A+ rank at best and arguing that it should move up to S on versatility sort of ignores that the best versatility is the kind that comes from singular sets less than the ability to run multiple sets. The other factor to me is that teams tend to be so ridiculously prepared for Lando-T - even if it is able to do some work it's still heavily pressured a lot of the time and doesn't turn the tables with pressure of its own very often.

Weavile A+ -> A [yes]
I think out of the main Dark-types in the tier right now - Bisharp, Mega Sableye, Tyranitar, Hoopa-U and Weavile - Weavile is the least viable of the bunch. Don't get me wrong, it's still a very good pokemon and a pretty strong restriction on teambuilding, but it simply isn't as consistent or threatening as the others. Sableye and Tyranitar are retardedly consistent and by far the best at providing the support that they do. Bisharp is still a ridiculous pokemon and capable of sweeping a ton of teams after a Swords Dance, synergizes amazingly with hazards and has a decent defensive typing to help it out. Hoopa is just.. man. You don't even prepare for this in the teambuilder really just because there isn't much of a point. If you're building offense you'll have your checks to it and if you are running bulkier teams you're probably gonna have problems. Arguments that its bad against offense aren't entirely untrue but it's still impossible to switch into and can get a kill any given match. Weavile's known for its matchup against offense, and on paper it is still really good. But Weavile is worn down so quickly by Life Orb + hazards and it's really susceptible to other priority users since Ice Shard isn't that strong when it's not a super effective hit.

The other thing is that its checks in Keldeo, Azumarill, Clefable, Klefki, and Mega Scizor (among a few others) are all extremely common. "But bludz, Tyranitar, Sableye and Bisharp checks are extremely common too!" That's true, but the difference is that Sableye and Tyranitar checks do not stop them from doing their job. Having a Keldeo on your team doesn't prevent Tyranitar from pursuit trapping stuff, and having Clefable on your team doesn't mean Sableye isn't cockblocking Ferrothorn for days. The point applies to Bisharp somewhat but most of its checks can be overwhelmed without too much hassle - Keldeo drops to a +2 Sucker Punch from standard LO variants after taking a Knock Off and a few SR switch-ins. On the other hand, these checks do prevent Weavile from sweeping. So yeah main point here is that Weavile actually looks like more of a threat than it ends up being a lot of the time. Still a good mon, but I think A rank is more appropriate.

On the note of some things that I said...

Tyranitar A -> A+
Um yeah so Sand is ridiculous and Tyranitar is easily the better setter. It's the best Pursuit trapper in the tier and it checks plenty of relevant things like Talonflame, Charizard X, and Mega Manectric. Chople Berry sets which have risen a lot in popularity give Tyranitar the role compression that warrants a rise. It sets up Stealth Rock, and also checks a lot of really big threats in 1v1 scenarios. The list includes Mega (and non-Mega) Alakazam, Mega Charizard Y, Hoopa-U, Tornadus-T, Weavile, Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, and more. Being able to actually have a 50/50 Pursuit vs Stone Edge scenario against stuff like Mega Zam, Zard Y, and Torn-T for sand teams is really huge - and the Ttar user is on the better side of these 50/50 scenarios. Scarf is still good too but yeah I think it's mostly the support set that's pushing it up for me right now.

Oh I also agree with Chansey to B+, but I don't think it should go any higher than that.

 

[kingmickey27]

Ok...this is my first time in here actually doing nominations so hopefully, i do ok.

Tyranitar A ---> A+ Agree
Tyranitar is the Pokemon that defines both sand and pursuit trapping. Its support set has the ability to set up stealth rock and the bulk to check both Mega Charizards, the Latis, and both electrics Manectric and Raikou which is very valuable for many different teams. It can even get around would-be counters like Garchomp and Landorus-T with Ice Beam or Ferrothorn and Skarmory with Fire Blast depending on your needs with its last moveslot. Aside from propelling Excadrill to a devastating sweep, Chople Berry Tyranitar can lure in and destroy any Gengar, Weavile, Hoopa, Tornadus-t, Alakazam, Charizard Y, and pretty much any Pokemon that relies on a non-STAB fighting move to get around Tyranitar.

Finally it doesn't make much sense to say "Excadrill is more viable than Tyranitar" because Excadrill's A+ ranking is reliant on Tyranitar. It's like Politoed back in Gen 5 where Politoed itself was trash, but it defined the rain playstyle and contributed heavily to the viability of several different pokemon.

Weavile A+ ---> A Agree
Keldeo being S-rank and Chople Tyranitar rising in usage hurts it immensely. It also doesn't last very long due to its stealth rock weakness and life orb recoil damage. Being weak to all forms of priority really sucks for it. Compared to the rest of A+, it just doesn't cut it. Few competent teams go in without some decent answer to Weavile whether its Keldeo, Mega Scizor, Klefki, or Azumarill and Stealth rock limits the time it can switch out. The meta has had time to prepare for Weavile since its big splash in OU so it should drop.

The A, A-, B+ zone seems kind of confusing. While Mega Altaria is noticeably worse than the rest of A, it's actually way better than the rest of A-
Mega Altaria A ---> A-
Mega Manectric A ---> A-
Raikou A- ---> B+
Mega Aerodactyl A- ---> B+

Mega Altaria sort of reminds me of Mega Gallade where it's the middle man between more specialized fairy types. In terms of pure power, Mega Gardevoir and Azumarill are usually better choices to smash through bulkier builds while Mega Diancie is a lot faster and has rock polish to help against those faster builds. The DDD set isn't that great because having fairy as your only STAB is terrible and it's really weak to start off with. Gardevoir is generally preferred for Special attacking sets because of its raw power. The Offensive Dragon Dance set is probably the best set atm but it does suffer from 4MSS because it has to choose between fire blast and roost. The best advantage that Mega Altaria has above its competitors is its great defensive typing and bulk (which allows it to set up Dragon dance a bit easier). Being able to check both Mega Charizards, Keldeo, Electric Types, Garchomp, Dragonite, and most fighting types is a really nice thing to have. The defensive traits it has generally makes it better than A-, while its own flaws make it worse than A. So, i'll agree with A only if...
Raikou moves from A- ---> B+. Excadrill, Mega Latias and Tyranitar's rise has spelled doom for Raikou. At the very least, Mega Manectric and Thundurus have ways to dent these pokemon. Aside from that, its best set in Calm Mind lacks immediate power.

and....

Mega Aerodactyl should move down to B+. I know this has been talked about already but hear me out. While its 4 attacks cleaner set is good at what it does, Mega Aerodactyl can only put in decent work against faster, offensive builds and has limited switchins due to Tankchomp, Stealth rock and Rocky Helmet Landorus-T. Sure, it has Roost and Taunt, but you have to give up important coverage to have these moves and with Landorus-T and Garchomp not letting up anytime soon, Ice fang/Aqua Tail is almost mandatory on Mega Aerodactyl. Consider the fact that I'm betting my Mega slot on such a matchup reliant pokemon, i don't see a reason as to why it should be in the same rank as Latias and Pinsir both of which put in considerably more work against a wider range of team archetypes. It fits in nicely with the likes of Mamoswine, Celebi and Dragonite in terms of effectiveness. Ranking it alongside Mega Heracross isn't a bad thing either as both really perform well against certain team archetypes. It should move down ESPECIALLY if Mega Altaria drops to A-

Mega Manectric should drop from A to A- Most Electric types have taken a tumble from grace with the rise of sand. It can't do much to Tyranitar (which can pursuit it too) or Hippowdon, while Excadrill beats it in sand. With ground types being everywhere, it's not that easy to volt switch anymore. while it is better than the rest of the current A-, it should move down if Raikou drops.

If Mega Aerodactyl and Raikou drop, then the overall power level of A- is comparable to Mega Altaria and Mega Manectric so their drop would make more sense.

Klefki should not drop from A- While Excadrill's rise hurts it a bit, the immense utility Klefki provides for Offensive teams is too good to pass up. From setting spikes to spreading status or setting up screens or being a lati check or emergency check to sweepers with priority t-wave, Klefki's niche is easily on the level as the other A- Pokemon. It even has a good enough movepool to get around many of its checks: Garchomp and Landorus can't do much to it if it has Magnet Rise and both despise toxic while both Mega Diancie and Sableye fear Dazzling Gleam and Flash Cannon. It's main draw over Thundurus is it's better defenses and better defensive typing. A- is a fair ranking for it.

Starmie is a bit overrated. The defensive set is terrible atm so I'll just talk about the offensive set. With this set, i find it gets forced out too often and it struggles a lot against bulkier builds. nothing has really changed for it to move up, except for maybe Keldeo to S. Even then, the offensive set struggles to actually take a specs secret sword consistently it gets defeated too easily with stealth rock and life orb damage and a lack of recover. Despite the fact that it's "the best spinner in OU," people seem to forget that rapid spin itself has taken a tumble from grace this gen, with Defog having many more viable users. I don't think it should move up.

I don't have an opinion on Mew, Gyarados, or Mega Medicham, so I'll abstain from talking about them.

Mamoswine should not drop. It's earthquake is insanely powerful while ice coverage is still strong. no pokemon aside from Skarmory, Slowbro, and Gyarados enjoys switching into Mamoswine and it's priority ice shard is still very valuable, nailing threats like Thundurus, Garchomp, and Landorus-T. Something else people seem to overlook is that it's a fantastic Electric type check, resisting both electric and ice while taking neutral damage from fire moves. It's actually a lot hard to switch in to than weavile and if you let this thing get a free switchin, something will most likely go down or take a lot of damage. Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, and Bullet Punch weaknesses are unfortunate, but its power makes up for it and so it should stay in B+

Reuniclus I wouldn't move it up yet. Dark types have lost a bit of potency but they haven't actually died out. The final nail in the coffin is that it's a free switch in to Hoopa-U (and giving the best wallbreaker in the tier a free switch in is not a good idea.)

Chansey should move up to B+ It's a lot better with Shadow Tag now gone. It's a full blown stop to almost every special attacker in the tier not named Keldeo or strong Psyshock users and even has the bulk to stop threats like Mega Diancie and Kyurem-B and weaker physical attackers. Aside from being the premier special wall in the tier, it also has a fantastic support movepool with Thunder Wave and Toxic to cripple common switchins, Stealth Rock, Wish and Heal Bell. I don't think it's A- because it is bait for set up sweepers and taunt and along with being incredibly passive.

Amoonguss I don't know all that much about this Pokemon but I feel like it's a bit overrated and overhyped. Yes, it checks a lot. Yes it has spore. But it's ridiculously passive and can get overwhelmed. No strong opinions on this one.

Mega Latias It's pretty good for what its worth, but I don't know if I'd move it all the way to A. BoltBeam T-wave is pretty nice to have, but it kind of leaves you vulnerable to Excadrill. Choosing to run Calm mind leaves you vulnerable to Pursuit Trapping and still Excadrill. Yeah it checks a lot of threats but I feel like it's a bit overhyped, but i don't have any strong opinions on whether it should move up or down.

The B- and C+ zone kind of seems a bit confusing
Mega Pidgeot B- ---> C+
Entei C+ ---> B-
Mega Houndoom C+ ---> C
Empoleon B- ---> C+

Mega Pidgeot seems a bit more niche than the rest of B-. Outside of being mostly overshadowed by Tornadus-t, Mega Pidgeot seems to be complete Tyranitar bait especially if you're running the stallbreaker set. The Stallbreaker set can really only put in work against one specific team archetype and struggles to do much against the others. For what it's worth, it fits C rank a bit more than B in that it's more of a niche choice.
Entei should move from C+ ---> B- It's definitely a force to be reckoned with. Something it has over the other wallbreakers in C+ is its access to Extremespeed which helps against faster builds while acting as a decent revenge killer. But Sacred Fire is the real selling point in using this Pokemon. Would-be switchins like Garchomp, Landorus-T and Tyranitar absolutely despise burns. I think it has enough qualities to rise to B-

Mega Houndoom C+ ---> C. It's not that good in the current meta. Excadrill and sand is everywhere. Aside from that, it's bait for Mega Altaria, Keldeo, Tyranitar, and Heatran. Unlike Infernape or Entei, it doesn't have insane coverage or priority and it takes up a Mega slot. Generally more trouble than its worth in my opinion
Empoleon B- ---> C+ Makes sense. It can work as a defogger/stealth rock setter but it's Keldeo and Electric (especially magnezone) bait and it can't beat any relevant Stealth rock setter like Garchomp and Landorus-T.

Mega Absol C ---> D It's really hard to justify using over Mega Diancie as an offensive Magic Bouncer. In terms of a fast dark type, I would generally choose Weavile. And in terms of Swords Dance + Sucker Punch, I would generally go for Bisharp. It's total Clefable bait and is hit hard by every form of priority. It's just more trouble than what it's worth when there are simply better options than can either provide more or threaten more with less of an opportunity cost.

Finally, Chandelure D ---> Unranked
It's total Tyranitar pursuit bait and it absolutely struggles with special walls. It has nifty immunities to normal, fighting, and fire but it doesn't have the bulk to actually take some advantage of this and its stealth rock weakness doesn't help it either. Earthquake being rampant in this tier really hurts it more than the rest of D-rank. Add a subpar speed and it always feels like I'm playing a pokemon down. It doesn't spinblock anything either with both Excadrill and Starmie beating it easily. It checks Mega Charizard Y but it's not like that niche can't be fulfilled by a better and overall more useful Pokemon.

tl;dr
Tyranitar A ---> A+
Weavile A+ ---> A
Mega Altaria and Mega Manectric A ---> A- Only if Raikou and Mega Aerodactyl A- ---> B+
Klefki and Starmie Stay A-
Mamoswine Stays B+
Reuniclus Stays B
Chansey B ---> B+
Mega Pidgeot (extremely niche pick) B- ---> C+
Entei C+ ---> B-
Empoleon B- ---> C+
Mega Houndoom (huge Keldeo bait) C+ ---> C
Mega Absol (use Mega Diancie imo) C ---> D (or even unranked)
Chandelure (ttar bait) D ---> Unranked

 

[yuruuu]

Having used Chansey quite a lot, even on non-stall builds, I fully support the rise of Chansey to B+. It provides an immeasurable amount of team support, in the form of yellow magic and stealth rock. Its normal typing I would say is a boon as it doesn't give it extra weaknesses. Things like Clefable, while typically able to take hits better, has some weaknesses to things like AV Metagross and Bisharp which it cannot check in a pinch, since it'll just evaporate. Chansey, on the other hand, can take a neutral hit from what seems to be absolutely anything. It may not take it well, but from full health it can easily paralyze any dangerous threat, even physical ones, including but not limited to both Charizard forms, Bisharp, etc. This does not include the huge list of
Special attackers that are never ever getting past Chansey. Insurmountable wall. Kind of Hippowdon, in this sense, in that it can check everything in the world with the condition that it must be at full.

Its passivity is completely overstated, nothing can switch in safely on it to boost without getting paralyzed unless Ground type (electrics are typically special and Chansey still takes their +2 hits until Christmas). And if your team is weak to +2 Lando-T, for instance, it needs to be fixed. It's not a huge epiphany that Chansey can lose momentum-all passive ones do. But it also stops the opposing special mons from ever gaining any traction.


Has to run stealth rock though, way too passive otherwise. Toxic sucks compared to yellow magic even on stall haha I like my free turns to heal tyvm.

 

[bludz]

Speaking from experience using Mega Pidgeot its definitely a notch above the C+ rank megas like Ampharos and Blastoise. It seems sorta outshined by Torn-T but never missing makes it a lot more reliable and that much is big (evidenced by the number of arguments about missing hurricane). Being Ttar bait is not a viability killing quality really when that's only one aspect.

On that note Dugtrio might belong in C+. Statswise its a horrid Mon but trapping stuff like Ttar, Heatran and Diancie is pretty big, offering better support than the rest of C

Empoleon should definitely drop its not really all that good at anything. It promises role compression but is ultimately just too pressured to do all the things it wants to do.

 

[Subjugator]

Been playing a few games with Empoleon lately. My thoughts:

Empoleon is not nearly as good as I expected it to be. It can Defog well, but it's niche is hard to reach in a tier where Sand, Physical Breakers, and Bulky Offense run loose. It ends up losing out on checking many of the threats that it would seem to check on paper because of it's horrid defense stat and low speed, forcing it to take a hit before it can use Defog. Bulky Ground Types such as Garchomp, and Landorus-Therian do not really fear Empoleon as they can either pivot or phaze it out or use EQ. Sand is all-hell for Empoleon. Excadrill doesn't even need a Sandstorm to use Swords Dance as Empoleon is forced to switch. Hippowdon and Ttar don't particularly like Scald, but they are not necessarily destroyed by Empoleon.

Empoleon is like a "Jack of All Trades, Master Of None" without being a jack of any trade ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). Sorry for bandwagoning, but it should drop. Yep.

 

[kek123]

Lando stay's at A+
I really don't think lando is S rank quality I mean don't get me wrong it is a amazingly powerful mon but I don't think it has the same special traits that other S rankers do for example although one of the up side of lando is that it is extremely diverse and has multiply sets you can tell what set it is usually after the first turn it spends on the field because if it Rock then it'l probably go for rocks first turn and you will so lefties and if it goes for rocks and its no lefties it either soft sand or rocky helmet if it's scarf it wont go for rocks first and if it double dance you probably wont be seen until later into the battle.

Another reason for it not rise the S rank is that every thing is running Hidden power ice for it self and chomp for example I personally like running HP ice balloon heatran so when it feels like almost every special attacking attacker is using HP ice funnily enough because of this its quite easy to fun HP ice forcing lando to switch time and time again .Another reason for it not being S rank in my opinion is no reliable recovery as a mainly defensive although this is rather picky I really thing it is restricting factor since it make it easily whittled down by rock or non boosted attack for example it cant wall things like Zard X as well as say hippowdon since hit can be whittled also adding this point pretty much all of the the S ranks mons in oras so far have had recovery moves/reliable recovery (Mega sab=recover clefable=soft boiled torn-t=regenerator Zard x=roost keldeo=rest talk mega altiaria=roost) the only one I think that has been S rank with out a set that use reliable recovery is Mega metagross , please keep in mind this isn't me saying that only mons with reliable recovery should be put in S rank im just pointing out this trend and yes I do know that lando get access to rest but none of its viable set run it so i'm not counting it.

Although lando has array of set's and many usable sets it cant inflict any status on to the opposing pokemon like say clefable, keldeo and torn-t just in case I am needed to explain i will keldeo can cause burn clefable can t-wave and torn-t can confuse with hurricane so why does this matter well of these side affects you can never really get a free switch in to these mons well you can with ground and electric types on clefable but theres still moonblast that can lower spa where if you can predict lando for example you predict eq and you get it right theres no possiable side affects like burn or confuse this may be a bit picky but mons need to be really good to get into S rank right.

Sorry to bring up the history of S rank mons again but im going to none of the S rank mons in oras have every been weak to water iirc, being weak to water the most common pokemon type has to be a pretty big down fall in my opinion , I mean any mons that feels like its practically asking for keldeo to switch is at a bit of disadvantage since you have to u-turn predicting the switch some times even leading to over predicting (this does happen with other water mons as you know but keldeo was the easiest example to give) .

Over all with Lando i don't think lando should be S rank with problems like himself and chomp felling like the public enemy number one and two and every man and their dog running HP ice on almost any special attacker they use (a least that what it feels like) and lando having no reliable recovery and being weak to the most common type water i don't think he's S rank quality. But don't get me wrong i'd name him best mon in A+ with in a heart beat, just not S rank.

 

[Cheryl.]

Mamoswine should totally not drop to B. It's an amazing wallbreaker with awesome Ice/Ground STAB coverage, and the ability to pick off weakened threats with Ice Shard is awesome as well, and being able to OHKO Tornadus-Therian after Stealth Rock with Ice Shard is a testament to this thing's power. Furthermore, it actually punishes those teams that rely on something like TankChomp or Lando-T to check physical attackers, as it kills both of those, and then is basically free to destroy the opposing team. While it does have some weaknesses in being weak to common priority moves (Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet), and being hard to get into the battle thanks to it's meh defensive typing (It also can struggle to get through stuff like Mega Scizor and Skarmory), it's still a really awesome anti-meta wallbreaker, and in my opinion is one of the better B+ mons. Totally should stay B+. (Also being a nice check to Electrics such as Raikou and Mega Manectric on offense is a plus, love Thick Fat)

 

[Reiddos]

Weavile A+ ==> A Agree

Weavile hands down is in my top 3 pokemon to use in OU at the moment along with Zardy and Latios but I can totally agree with this drop.

As Bludz mentions it looks super good on paper but it has some really obvious flaws; super frail, loss of hp to residual damage and the frequency of it's checks to in the meta. That being said it's typing and speed are really nice and it can definitely force out pokemon. However most teams are prepared for it these days. I feel it's move slots are pretty 1 dimensional. It has to run knock off for the utlility and insane power, icicle crash/ ice punch needs to take up a slot as it needs that hard hitting ice move (both have their drawbacks), ice shard is super important priority. This leaves just 1 slot for it to surprise opponents.
The other main drawback to weavile is how fast it wears itself down. When it forces switches and attacks you lose 10% you then switch and if rocks are up, take another 25%.

Overall I think it needs the drop as it just isn't A+ material due to this reasons.

 

[AM]

What are peoples thoughts on Hoopa-U going back to S?

The Specs set, along with Hoopa-U itself, has started gaining a lot of attention amongst the OU camp on top of the other sets and varieties it has access to. It doesn't exactly provide any real defensive utility but it has shown to have enough offensive merit where people either, rely on Pursuit to take it out (mind you after something dies), or literally just say "screw it" in the teambuilder phase and hope it pans out well in the battle phase as it has no real theoretical counters.

I don't think there needs to be an AM like essay on this (lol...) if you've been paying attention to OU in high ladder and tour formats so kind of curious on peoples stance on this nom.

 

[Subjugator]

Okay, now I will sum up everything I have gathered based on the last two pages.

Amoonguss B+ ---> A-: Hell Yeah! Amoonguss quickly distinguishes itself as one of the best pivots in OU with great defensive typing and access to Regenerator, along with neutrality to hazards, means that it can switch in comfortably many times. Using Spore + Foul Play or Clear Smog is an excellent way to bypass setup sweepers, and more often than not, Amoonguss finds a clear-cut niche in Stall, Balance, and Offense Playstyles. Amoonguss checks a wide variety of offensive threats such as Keldeo, Gengar, Tyranitar, Mega Scizor, Garchomp and more and is surely on the same level of Gyarados, Breloom, and Hippowdon. Rise to A-.

Mega Latias A- ---> A: Well to be fair, I have not used Mega Latias much but I've seen it used in action more often than not. It's a great Defensive CM user with a wide movepool and versatility, and it seems to have a massive increase in popularity due to SPL matches. However, it must be noted that Mega Latias is earning ample amounts of hype right now, but I can see it in A Rank. Rise to A.

Tyranitar A ---> A+: Now that Sand is making a comeback, Tyranitar probably deserves A+ Rank. It has so much to bring to a team, including drastically high defenses, high offense, weather, good typing, trapping support, SR, and much more. It's hard to note which set it's using at first, but almost all of them are very viable, and are pretty splashable on a team. On Sand, it is more viable than Hippowdon for the most part because of higher bulk and more movepool options. A+ for now. Rise to A+.

Mamoswine B+ ---> B-: Mamoswine, while very flawed, should not drop for now. It's a great lead that can set up SR and break past TankChomp and Lando-T, and hits Hippowdon hard, all of which are common on OU teams. Mamoswine is bound to deal some damage with its attack, and decent stat distribution. It's flaws come at the point of it's bad defensive typing and low special bulk, but that doesn't stop it from being a B+ mon. Keep in B+.

Hoopa-Unbound A+ ---> S: Nah. Hoopa-Unbound has very little going for it besides its offenses, and when you take into account it's bad typing, low bulk, and useless ability and low speed. As the metagame gets more offensive, Hoopa-Unbound finds itself like Donald Trump- unpresidental. Do not rise to S.

Mega Manectric A ---> A-: Mega Manectric is not A Rank Material anymore in my opinion. Unless it carries coverage, it's checks are way too common to consider justified for an A Rank Mon. Half the time, in my opinion, it must pivot out anyway when faced with an unfavorable matchup and just rack of hazard damage. Clefable, Hoopa-Unbound, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Heatran, Chansey, Mega Venusaur, Hippowdon, Mega Latias, and many, many others. Drop to A-.

Klefki A- ---> B+: One of the best Utility Roles of the entire tier deserves more than B+ rank tbh. Klefki is an awesome screener and spiker that provides support to its team, be it increasing their bulk or setting up three layers of spikes, or spreading paralysis around. Stay in A-.

Chansey B ---> B+: Yes. Chansey counters most special attackers, and has high defenses that are nearly unrivaled. It can spread massive Wishes, and is a staple on Stall Teams. Heck, if you are weak to Special Attacks at all, just slap the fat blob on your team and you now have one hard check. Rise to B+.

In conclusion,

Rise

Rise

Rise

Stay

Stay

Drop

Stay

Rise

 

[kingmickey27]

Yeah, Hoopa-U to S should happen. This is the single best wallbreaker in the tier with no safe switchins besides niche stuff like Mandibuzz. With a plethora of coverage options, nothing is safe from the sheer power of its moves, being able to 2HKO or outright KO the entire OU tier. The fact that it has incredible power on both sides of the spectrum makes it almost impossible to wall as common defensive backbones simply get overpowered by the power or the coverage that Hoopa-U possesses.

Every wall or defensive pokemon in the tier can easily die to this thing or take some massive damage:

Chansey (the premier "special wall"):

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 379-447 (59 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Hippowdon (the "premier mixed wall"):

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 271-321 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 201-237 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarmory (the "premier physical wall"):

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The other Hoopa sets can break past Skarmory with Special Moves.

Ferrothorn:

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-226 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega Sableye:

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 177-208 (58.2 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Landorus-T:

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Garchomp:

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Every dedicated defensive Pokemon that make up the defensive backbone of several teams is defeated with ITS STABS ALONE, even when fully invested into the respective defensive stat. In addition to the list above, Slowbro dies to any dark move, Tyranitar fears Drain Punch and Focus Blast, Clefable fears Gunk Shot, etc.

Offensive teams don't fare any better. Send a resist or bulky Pokemon and it should work out, right?

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 156-183 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 195-231 (56.8 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 143-168 (44.8 - 52.6%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO

Against offensive teams it's even easier to spam your STABs.

But outside of stating the obvious, I don't really understand the argument for "no defensive synergy." It has decent special bulk, meaning it can switch into a Lati, Alakazam, or Reuniclus and get a free kill on the switch if you need that. But outside of that, it isn't difficult to slap on some U-turn support especially with Landorus-T and Rotom-W being so high in usage and some priority absorber with Garchomp remaining high in usage as well. Tyranitar and Bisharp are super hesitant to switch in. It isn't uncommon to see people slap Hoopa-U on teams without a second thought simply because it breaks so much stuff in the tier.

If you ask me, this Pokemon is probably broken. The only "reliable" way to deal with it is pursuit trapping or Mandibuzz, and if you're forced to run these Pokemon just to eliminate or "check" Hoopa-U, it's probably too powerful for the tier. Even then, Hoopa has the coverage and the power to deal with these threats by simply tweaking its coverage moves and carefully playing around its opponent. It has other great traits too, like its versatility hitting from both attacking stats powerfully or running a viable choice scarf set to improve its matchup against faster builds or assault vest (which is bad if you ask me) if you want to be able to switch into special attacks more comfortably, to fire off an attack. Move it to S.

tl;dr

• Shatters every conceivable defensive backbone in the tier with its STABs alone
• Easily Spams STABs against less bulky builds
• Not much opportunity cost as it isn't difficult to slap on a slow U-turn or Volt Switch user like Landorus-T or Rotom-W
• The whole "no defensive utility thing" isn't 100% true because it does have decent special defense and an immunity to Psychic.
• Versatile with Scarf to improves it matchup against offensive/faster builds, Assault Vest, Band, Specs, or even Trick Room or Nasty Plot if you're that guy.
• No safe switchins aside from Mandibuzz (which is rare)
• Has ways to work around would-be counter counters with its insane power or its huge movepool.
• Move it to S

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Well I was going to post on Hoopa originally, but AM covered it pretty well, Specs Hoopa is just so ridiculously good (by far the best Hoopa set atm) and it's probably the only mon we have seen this generation which had a set with absolutely no switch-ins. I can't describe just how ridiculously good something with literally no switch-ins, not even niche stuff, is, but Specs Hoopa is probably the mon with the single best game-to-game performance right now. Against slower, bulkier teams, it obviously has no issue absolutely decimating any and all of them, especially when you consider that stuff like ScarfTar Pursuit doesn't even OHKO it (meaning it can, at worst, weaken the Tyranitar assuming you got it in safely against Hoopa without sacrificing something first, a tall order by itself). Against more offensive teams, there's still at least 1 key Pokemon it can just fire off its moves against with basically zero risk (Tank Chomp, Latios, Mega Metagross before it evolves, Keldeo that's anything except for LO/Specs Secret Sword locked, Manaphy, etc etc) which is great considering that it's definitely Hoopa's worst matchup to be in. When something this dominant against bulkier teams is also still useful against offense to such a massive degree, then thats kinda fucked. Stuff like Scarf/Band/LO Hoopa is just the icing on the cake, either outspeeding and O/2HKOing a large portion of the unboosted tier or doing better against particular opponents Specs doesn't really want to take on 1 on 1 like Fairies thanks to its ridiculously powerful Gunk Shot. In general, though, I think that Hoopa's Specs set by itself is so good that it deserves to raise to S, even with its "lacking defensive utility" (which is nonsense because it actually checks a lot of stuff, just via raw stats instead of brilliant typing).

Another, probably more controversial, nomination I want to make is Rotom-W to A+. If you've been keeping up with recent tournament matches, Bulky Offense is starting to really lift off as a popular playstyle again recently, and Rotom-W is definitely one of the cornerstones of Bulky Offense because it not only provides momentum but also a softcheck (Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Keldeo) or hard counter (Excadrill, bulky Mega Scizor as long as you have something to actually kill it once it's burned, pretty much every Talonflame set, Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross especially with Zen Headbutt falling somewhat out of favor to have both Ice Punch and Thunderpunch) to a lot of different dangerous Pokemon in this metagame. Obviously, it can't do all of that at the same time, but the fact that it can check so many at once means that you can pick out the most dangerous one and have the rest of your team dedicated to other threats. Volt Switch is obviously one of the best moves in the game, and having a STAB move that severely punished ground types looking for a free switch-in makes it just perfect because it means that it's hard to prevent Rotom from actually gaining momentum as stuff that beats it (Latios, Serperior, Amoonguss, Clef) is just a free Volt Switch to something that absolutely destroys those (hint hint Specs Hoopa). While some people might think that Rotom-W gets worn down easily because its only recovery is Pain Split that... honestly isn't the case lol. If you've ever used Rotom, most of the mons that actually want to come in on it are very likely to be at full health such as Regenerator Pokemon (Tang/Amoong), Clefable, or even stuff like Latios or Serperior who despise taking hits unless they really have to. While it's possible for them to sacrifice something to keep Rotom at low health, that probably means you either fucked up with it or it already sacrificed most of its health to deal with a threatening Pokemon, thus fulfilling its job. In short, Rotom is probably one of the most reliable and useful Pokemon in this metagame for Bulky Offense, and I feel that it's better than pretty much everything in A bar Tyranitar, and even half the stuff in A+, at least in this metagame. Its sheer utility not only while checking dangerous threats but also while grabbing momentum is only really paralleled by Vest Tornadus-T in this metagame, and I think its spot on the rankings should reflect just how good of a Pokemon it is right now.

Other stuff that should happen is moving Latias down cause it's fucking awful (like, honestly, at least get Mega Latias out of the same rank as this junk), and I'd argue that even half the mons in B+ are just flat out better than it (MHera, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, the rain cast, Terrakion, Gastrodon, probably all of them bar Celebi and maybe Togekiss in fact) so move it down to the depths of hell. In my 2+ years watching XY and ORAS games I haven't seen Healing Wish change the outcome of a high level game even once, and Colbur TWave was a nice gimmick while it lasted, but even that's better done by Latios nowadays just because people don't just straight up expect it on Latios as soon as they see it lack LO. Latias is just garbage.

I also agree with dropping Manectric cause it sucks ass but thats a different story.

just my 2 cents.

No safe switchins aside from Mandibuzz (which is rare)

I agree with your post in general, but I'd just like to point out that even Mandibuzz isn't really "safe" considering that Specs Hoopa really doesn't need its 4th slot at all (Trick is fucking garbage after running around with it for a while), so Thunderbolt is a totally good and viable option, making it literally uncounterable.

 

[TURBODERP]

Even if you're not running Thunderbolt, if you have Rocks up, Mandibuzz can only check Specs Hoopa once or twice and then it falls, and if Mandibuzz is the Defogger as it usually is (even though IMO it's not great as a Defogger due to being Rocks weak and liking to have U-Turn/Taunt/Toxic/Knock Off), then it's under heavy pressure anyways against a good team (speaking as a huge Mandibuzz user and proponent).

Thunderbolt is also just strong neutral coverage too.

....Jesus, Specs Hoopa is a monster.

 

[bludz]

Honestly I hadn't though about the Hoopa to S thing too much til TDK brought it up the other day. To be honest I feel like Life Orb has been overhyped as the best set for a while and I've been a strong proponent of Choice Band (which can 2HKO Mandibuzz using Gunk Shot with Stealth Rock, up so that's another reason it's not a counter) as being easier to use. Been using Specs the past few days and I have enjoyed it as much as if not more than Band, since you rarely have to use anything other than your 2 STAB moves. It's just so easy to double out into Hoopa from say Heatran on an incoming Starmie or something and just click Dark Pulse with very little repercussion. So far I would say Tbolt is the best last move, it's the only one I've actually used - I tried Grass Knot and Hyperspace Hole (OHKOs Mega Diancie through Protect the turn it Megas) but never ended up using either of them in any match. Tbolt just gives you a nice neutral hit if say your opponent has a Thundurus out and a Mega Gyarados (prior to Mega Evo) in the back, and situations like that among others.

It's been kinda underrated for a while now for its "bad matchup" vs offense and lack of defensive synergy with anything. But in terms of just getting KOs it's easier than just about anything to slap on a team and get a kill per match with the right prediction. I mean, nothing can switch in reliably and there are a number of things it can take a hit from, so it's going to get off a few attacks per game, which is enough if you play it right. Honestly inclined to agree with a move to S.

 

[bluegrass]

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Damn if rocks are up not even Mandi avoids the 2HKO, although that spread was from the calculator and might be dated.

I think Hoopa-U is deserving of S rank, bad physical defense doesn't make up for the fact that only way to really "counter" him is by using a pursuit trapper. None of them can even switch in either so you're almost always going to lose a mon to this thing. Not to mention he has a bizillion different sets he can run, all of which are mostly viable, adding a surprise factor.

 

[TPP]

> A+

I've been wanting to do this one for a while. Rotom-Wash is extremely fun to use right now with everyone Sand and/or Torn-T (Rotom's one of the few switch ins for Torn-T, so it's really nice for that role). Mega Pinsir making a comeback also helps promote Rotom's usage, and Rotom being able to burn everything that isn't Clef (fire types naturally won't wanna switch in, so it's kinda like Scald in a sense) is really nice too. Grass types are generally the most common switch ins for Rotom, and being able to burn them like Keldeo would in hopes of wearing them down can be really helpful later in the game, especially for mons that appreciate them being gone like Keldeo. One cool thing about Rotom-Wash, is that it's the only Volt Switch user that doesn't get shut down by sand, meaning it'll be more reliable than Mega Manectric and Raikou (against Sand) to get stuff like Hoopa-Unbound in safely. This one isn't too important, but Lando-T being on more teams than Tank Chomp helps Rotom-Wash a bit as well, since it can force out and easily manage Lando-T, as opposed to not being able to immediately defeat Garchomp. There's not much to explain that CBB didn't already explain, but basically that 1st line sorta says (with a rise in Sand + Torn-T) for what's changed in the meta for Rotom-Wash to rise.

 

[Shuple]

Hoopa-Unbound A+ -> S Neutral
Rotom-W A -> A+ Agreed

Hoopa-U has a bad matchup against the mainstream nowadays aka Offense,and Sand Offense doesn't leave Hoopa-U much momentum due to the Sand Rush Exca and Tyranitar, Tyranitar can act as a shaky check switching into some of Hoopa-U's Choice moves or just getting in by sack,and Pursuit it off,it is probably in a drop of matchup against the metagame.
While if it got a momentum,a kill is almost guaranteed.It do has great viability itself,the suggestion of raising maybe cuz it is underrated before?
I like it pretty much since a Hoopa-U in team can wreck all the potentially Stall teams met in a Find Battle,free my teambuilding pressure from losing momentum/matchup against Stall teams.
Idk whether you think it is a good comparison but I'd like to compare it with another powerhouse named Zard-X, I know it struggled against sand harder than Hoopa-U,but against offense it works out better due to Dragon Dance's Speed raise.

Though you guys consider Spec Hoopa-U is its best set,I prefer LO (NP) set,which I think is at the same level as the Spec set and suit the playstyle of myself better.Choice Pokemons rely on 50/50 to wallbreaking too much,and if you win the first 50/50 such as clicking Psyshock against a switched-in Chansey/Clefable/Sylveon,you need to play another 50/50 to predict whether your opponent will switch out or clicking Soft-Boiled,if you made the wrong choice,you will lose momentum when it switched out and have something resisting Psyshock come in,or watching it reborn while your Hoopa-U switched out and was predicting a Steel/Dark-Type switch ins.
I know Trick is available,but I prefer Scarf Tricking,since it is the same set - 3 move slot and probably equal to no item after Trick used,if you face Stall-esque teams,it is same with Spec Tricking,while Scarf set has a better matchup against Offense style.
Mandibuzz doesn't really act as a solid check against it,though can switch in many of its regular moves,Trick and LO Nasty Plot Focus Blast can demolish it.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 387-456 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

LO NP Hoopa-U's power:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 551-649 (85.8 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 437-515 (110.9 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 403-476 (102.2 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 294-347 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W is great,and brainless,with almost no weakness,some precious resistance against stuffs like Talonflame and non-Mold Breaker Excadrill,pivoting with Volt Switch and can Will-O-Wisp Spam,Hydro Pump patch up the former 2 moves' dead place,leaves its pivoting and Will-O-Wisp Spamming hard to inhibit,works out well against all styles around the metagame.It deserves A+ Rank IMO.

 

[squidlick]

Long time lurker but here's a topic I can agree on.

Rayman's cousin Hoopa-Unbound to S should definitely happen. It's ridiculous. I've tried all of the sets but the one I like the most is the Scarf set, oddly enough. I've found myself sweeping late-game with Hyperspace Fury and even Gunk Shot at some points when checks such as other Scarfers and physical walls are out or weakened(resisted HyperFury still does a respectable amount factoring in hazards). A lack of physical bulk really isn't that much of a setback considering Hoopa-U doesn't want to stay in on hard hitters as is, but even that works to Hoopa-U's benefit via the element of surprise; removing something like Latios early game is wonderful. And that just adds to the guessing game Hoopa-U forces as is with the amount of sets it can run.

TLDR: Hoopa-Unbound is amazing and should ascend to S rank.

 

[kek123]

Hoopa-u to S rank NO!

Personally I don't think hoopa-u can be S rank because of its dismal defence stat pretty much any physical attack kills and being quad weak to bug makes it that much easier to spam u-turn on it in combination with sad defensive stat come it speed tier 80 which is almost terrible for OU almost all of the other mons that like to run max speed in the tier out speed it leaving it helpless to almost any physical attacking mons , and in my opinion i think hoopa-u is one of the least splash-able mons in the tier if you wont to use Hoopa-u effectively you need to be using it on HO or a Volt-turn team in my opinion although scarf is a bit more flexible I dont think it any were near as good as the life orb set since even thought LO isnt very flexible and can only really be use on HO or Volt-turn its a lot better than scarf as degreed by the OU set viability which states that LO and band or better than scarf the point is that Hoopa-u is really hard to use since it is such a struggle to get it on to the battle field unless you are running HO or volt-turn even then its not easy with electric immunity every wear and rocky helmet's every where to whittle u-turn users . Another flaw to hoopa-u is that it's sooooooo easy to revenge kill since when it use Hyper space fury it lowers defence making it food for any physical attackers and if you switch it and they predict and set up with something you're usually in for a world of pain since most hoopa-u team on HO like I said before so you can be easily be swept after trying to keep you Hoopa-u alive . Another problem of hoopa-u for me is although it may have quite a few sets it easy to read the 4 main set are LO and the 3 choice option you can usually tell what iteam hoopa-u is from Damage calc for the 3 choice options or for life orb you can just see its health go down .last point also the meta does not favour hoopa-u since it is currently since it is so fast and offensive and hoopa-u prefers a slow defensive meta since in nature Hoopa-u is a wall breaker but when there no walls what does hoopa-u do? Nothing much to be honest , hoopa-u's use ability in a match heavily depends on when kind of team its facing and I don't think there should be mons in S rank that are only helpful versus only certain match ups.

Over all hoopa-u's dismal defensive stat and its rather low speed stat limits that impact it can have on game and I find very often that hoopa-u can be a bit of a liability specially against HO which is not a characteristic of an S rank pokemon.

 

[HailFall]

Hoopa-Unbound to S

Agree
Hoopa-u is an amazing mon. Its stab is stupidly spammable, its power is amazing, and it 2hkoes the entire tier. Its somewhat dissapointing speed can be patched up easily by pairing it with a twave spreader like togekiss or clef. People very often ignore hoopa's impressive special bulk that allows it to take weaker special hits from offense with ease and stoumach a few more powerful ones too without going down. Another very impressive aspect of hoopa-u is this: versatility. You almost never know what set hoopa is running right off the bat -- its very unpredictable. this unpredictability allows it to be a formidable threat to ALL PLAYSTYLES. Offense deals with hoopa by sacking a mon -- how is hoopa "dead weight" against offense if it can force the opponent to sack something and then revenge kill it? It easily 6-0s most stall with a little team support, and it also a large threat to balance because of its sheer power, bulk, and usable speed tier. Its been a game changer time and time again for me and i cant agree more with the rise. I would go as far as to say that hoopa-u is the best wallbreaker in the entire tier at the moment because it fits on balance and offense extremely well, 2hkoes the entire tier due to its insane offenses (meaning no switchins), has a huge aspect of unpredictability, and has some flexibility defensively too.

 

[Mur]

Hello vr thread n_n
Some of the recent nominations are interesting so I'll give some my thoughts :o

Agreeing with hoopa to S: If you haven't read Cbb's post on the last page go do it because he explained why this change should happen. Like he and most others have said specs is just a fucking nasty set especially since it's stab+fighting coverage is good enough to let you tailor the 4th slot to whatever the fuck you want although tbolt is definitely the most useful in common situations. I never really understood why people picked on hoopa's fragility when it shouldn't be staying in on hits anyways plus it's spdef and typing is enough to let it check a ton of special attackers/pivots commonly found on offense. This and the versatility between it's other sets makes it such a defining force in the tier. Like scarf can wreck offense late game pretty easily since most teams only can fit on like 1 dark resist in the first place and that's assuming it doesn't have a coverage move to break them for itself earlier in the game, not to mention with spikes it can become kind of absurd :o. The reason why I mention scarfs pros despite it being one of the lesser sets is because the amount of bluffing you can do when the set isn't revealed is kind of hilarious. If you bring in hoopa against anything important on their team that scarf can check (think torn or lop etc) they aren't gonna risk that so it's just another way to abuse the versatility and power of this beast to get free kills in matchups where it's supposed to "do nothing". Of course ttar and sand being everywhere isn't great for it and it's inability to switch in too easily (although it isn't really hard to get it in imo) are negatives for it's rise I really don't think it's enough to deny the significance of hoopa's presence in the tier so move this beast to S.

Agreeing with rotom-w to A+: Again if you haven't read what Cbb had to say about this go do it. Anyways, the popularity of sand and offensive flying types makes rotom almost mandatory on the bo style teams that are very popular at the moment. The true strength to rotom though is it's ability to generate momentum in a way that is almost unstoppable. Momentum generating cores have always been kind of strong throughout oras and rotom is usually the core to these at the moment. Having the ability to volt to ttar on a lati or a medi onto ferro can put people into some nasty positions which is something that just makes rotom such an asset to have on a ton of builds. Yeah I don't think I have to go too in depth on this it seems pretty obvious to me why this should rise ._.

Agreeing with ttar to A+: Ttar is possibly the best glue mon in this tier right now next to like torn or clef. Being the main setter of the omnipresent sand playstyles that exist in this meta combined with the massive amount of things it can do is just too much to simply be A. Scarf helps put more pressure on opposing teams in conjunction with hazard stack since almost all of the hazard removers in the tier risk getting trapped when they go to lift the hazards from the field. Also being one of common defensive core's only ways to limit the molestation from hoopa is a pretty valuable role to have at the moment. I haven't even gone into the versatility of all it's sets like chople and cb but I don't think I need to. Ttar is just too much of a staple right now so I think it's ranking should reflect that.

Agreeing with Lando kitty form to S: I don't think anyone can deny the versatility and significance this mon has on the tier. The defensive set is easily one of the most splashable mons in the tier and is also somewhat of a staple to a lot of builds these days because of how well it checks sand and a ton of other physical threats in the tier enough to the point where it's usually chosen over tank chomp these days. However, I don't think the defensive set and it's utilities are what make it S imo. It's combination of sets is what makes me kind of want it to move up. Scarf is a very nice option for speed control with some decent defensive abilities on offensive teams and is easily one of the better momentum grabbing mons in the tier imo due to the amount of physical attackers it can check and force out, ultimately leading into you u-turning out into one of the many wallbreakers in the tier (ayyy hoopa). DD is easily one of the most consistent sweepers in the tier especially that it can set up on it's own common as fuck defensive set lol. Lum/yache+intimidate+typing just give it so many nice opportunities to set up and dismantle opposing teams. These are what I'd consider to be the "big three" lando sets but subsalac, offensive sr, defensive rh sd and whatever else people have created with this thing just give it near unmatched versatility in the tier. Just the amount you can do with lando make it a guessing game of what it's going to do and can easily influence plays early on when it's set is yet to be revealed. However, I can totally see why people would be against this rise. Lando is easily the most targeted mon in the tier like almost every team has a random hp ice or some way of luring/pressuring lando. The lack of recovery is also very annoying, especially when it's such a targeted mon. The way I look at it though is that these lures/pressuring tactics are just a result of lando's dominance on the tier so I don't really think it's viability should be held back by this. In my eyes something that completely dictates how many offensive cores are built, especially those primarily consisting of physical attackers, should be S rank. Also, if anyone saw the reiku vs ABR game lando tanked a fucking icicle crash from weavile ._.

Also why the fuck is Mlatias A-? This thing is the staple of balance right now and is waaay better than pretty much everything in A- and looks a lot better with mons like ferro, garde, char y etc. Boltbeam is just such incredible coverage which allows it to check some nasty wallbreakers like mana, crawdaunt, keld, char y, and a handful of others I'm probably forgetting. The last move on Mlati is also pretty free and can be used in a bunch of different ways. Twave is easily the most popular since it provides some nice speed control and just makes switching into this more annoying than it is already. Calm mind can make for a pretty sweet win con and makes this things bulk even more dumb than it is already. Reflect type is cool to just sit there in front of darks and be fat and can also be used in some other creative ways like denying ferro its leech seed recovery. I've also seen roar which can be pretty nice to wear down opposing cores since hazard stack cores is usually where Mlati is most potent in. I don't think anyone can deny the amount of important mons this thing checks and the amount of utility it brings to balances which is why it is typically the go to mega on these types of teams at the moment.

 

[Ptyra]

Mega Heracross B+ -> A-
This thing is a monster. I played it for a long time, I grew up 274th on the OU ladder with Mega Heracross and it's definitely not B+ material imo. Except Landorus-T which is quickly worn down and Gliscor, Mega Heracross has no switch-in. Basically, when I play it, Heracross makes a kill each time it comes on the field. Thanks to its good bulk, that's not hard to send him on stuff like Knock Off, Earthquake, Grass-type moves. Mega Heracross fucks up status with Substitute, usually unexpected while amazingly good on it. Sub allow Mega Heracross to avoid RK and wrong prediction, like doing Pin Missile on an incoming Talonflame and be forced out. Heracross enjoys to set up Substitute against stuff like Rotom-W, Mega Sableye, Amoongus which try to cripple it with status.
But Mega Heracross doesn't perform only agains Balance and Stall. It's also very good against offense. With a partner like Prankster TWave Thundurus, Mega Heracross is an amazing cleaner et a great win condition. Once its checks are paralyzsed or weakened, it's easy to sweep an entire team with Heracross, or at least make free KOs.
Heracross also has Moxie before it mega evolves, a great ability. Before mega evolution, it's a good check to Hoopa-U. Heracross can tank some Combat or Dark-type moves and KO back with Pin Missile because it's faster and gains a Moxie boost.
A- rank seems fine for Mega Heracross because it's easily checked by faster sweepers. But with its good bulk and monstruous power, Heracross doesn't fit in B+. Very underrated threat.

Landorus-T stays A+
A good mon but easily checked, not really a big threat in this metagame. Checks lots of things, good typing, movepool, but no reliable recovery and esay to check.

Togekiss B+ -> B/B-
Togekiss is a bit bad in this metagame. It doesn't really perform against any playstile, is weak to SR, too slow. I don't really see why it's B+.

Tyranitar remains A
Just like Mega Heracross, I played Ttar very much. Its support set is great, particulary with Chople Berry it checks so many threats and get surprise KO, but Ttar is so quickly worn down. It makes its job, puts Stealth Rock, sand, but it cannot reliably check Gengar/Tornadus-T/Alakazam during the entire battle. Scarf is very good to but lacks a bit of power and misses stuff like Mega Lopunny, Tornadus-T that it would enjoy to outspeed.

Rotom-W remains A
Not that good than it used to be. The metagame became pretty aggressive, many sweepers easily break through Rotom-W (Thundurus, Hoopa-U, Mega Heracross, etc) and it's quickly worn down because of Stealth Rock, potential Scald burn and some shit like that. Still Rotom is a great pivot and very annoying for some teams, but not A+ material imo.


My other thoughts :
Mega Latias -> A
Hoopa-U -> S
Starmie remains A-
Mega Altaria stays A
Mega Manectric remains A
Mega Medicham remains A
Raikou stays A-
Klefki stays A-
Gyarados stays A-
Reuniclus remains B
Mamoswine stays B+
Mew drops to B+
Amoongus grows up to A-
Abstains on Weavile

 

[Altina]

Rotom-W should remain in A
Rotom-W as stated by many people is an extremely splashable mon that is good against some trends such as increased sand usage and the fact that it is an amazing SI to the mandatory ground types that are present on most teams. I don't believe rotom-w is as good as it is hyped up to be as while it can soft check common mons on offense such as lopunny and weavile, I find it rather easily worn down and it can't really switch in to a number of physical mons after a couple of stealth rock switch ins. Normally another defensive mon is crucial to be paired up with rotom-w to alleviate pressure. Furthermore, it is a bummer that it can be 1v1ed by stuff it is supposed to check like Spdef Gliscor and Spdef Talonflame as you have to hit like 4 hydro pumps in a row (around 40% chance) to beat them and you can actually get roost stalled out due to having only 8pp.

Granted it is still a really annoying mon to face due to its ability to pivot with volt switch and spread burns to wear down opposing teams, but I do not think that it is on the same level of utility as other mons in A+

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Mega Heracross B+ -> A-
This thing is a monster. I played it for a long time, I grew up 274th on the OU ladder with Mega Heracross and it's definitely not B+ material imo. Except Landorus-T which is quickly worn down and Gliscor, Mega Heracross has no switch-in. Basically, when I play it, Heracross makes a kill each time it comes on the field. Thanks to its good bulk, that's not hard to send him on stuff like Knock Off, Earthquake, Grass-type moves. Mega Heracross fucks up status with Substitute, usually unexpected while amazingly good on it. Sub allow Mega Heracross to avoid RK and wrong prediction, like doing Pin Missile on an incoming Talonflame and be forced out. Heracross enjoys to set up Substitute against stuff like Rotom-W, Mega Sableye, Amoongus which try to cripple it with status.
But Mega Heracross doesn't perform only agains Balance and Stall. It's also very good against offense. With a partner like Prankster TWave Thundurus, Mega Heracross is an amazing cleaner et a great win condition. Once its checks are paralyzsed or weakened, it's easy to sweep an entire team with Heracross, or at least make free KOs.
Heracross also has Moxie before it mega evolves, a great ability. Before mega evolution, it's a good check to Hoopa-U. Heracross can tank some Combat or Dark-type moves and KO back with Pin Missile because it's faster and gains a Moxie boost.
A- rank seems fine for Mega Heracross because it's easily checked by faster sweepers. But with its good bulk and monstruous power, Heracross doesn't fit in B+. Very underrated threat.

Landorus-T stays A+
A good mon but easily checked, not really a big threat in this metagame. Checks lots of things, good typing, movepool, but no reliable recovery and esay to check.

Togekiss B+ -> B/B-
Togekiss is a bit bad in this metagame. It doesn't really perform against any playstile, is weak to SR, too slow. I don't really see why it's B+.

Tyranitar remains A
Just like Mega Heracross, I played Ttar very much. Its support set is great, particulary with Chople Berry it checks so many threats and get surprise KO, but Ttar is so quickly worn down. It makes its job, puts Stealth Rock, sand, but it cannot reliably check Gengar/Tornadus-T/Alakazam during the entire battle. Scarf is very good to but lacks a bit of power and misses stuff like Mega Lopunny, Tornadus-T that it would enjoy to outspeed.

Rotom-W remains A
Not that good than it used to be. The metagame became pretty aggressive, many sweepers easily break through Rotom-W (Thundurus, Hoopa-U, Mega Heracross, etc) and it's quickly worn down because of Stealth Rock, potential Scald burn and some shit like that. Still Rotom is a great pivot and very annoying for some teams, but not A+ material imo.


My other thoughts :
Mega Latias -> A
Hoopa-U -> S
Starmie remains A-
Mega Altaria stays A
Mega Manectric remains A
Mega Medicham remains A
Raikou stays A-
Klefki stays A-
Gyarados stays A-
Reuniclus remains B
Mamoswine stays B+
Mew drops to B+
Amoongus grows up to A-
Abstains on Weavile

I don't stand by Mega Heracross rising. Yes, it's a very efficient tool against stall, but being prey for Talonflame and Unaware clef (reletively common Pokemon on stall, escpecially in the case of the latter) certainly is suboptimal when compared to other breakers such as Hoopa-U. Yes, I understand it can rock blast Tflame, but it can only do that on the switchin. Torn-T can generally walk all over it, grabbing momentum or just ripping it apart with hurricane. While I do agree that Mega Cross is one of the better Pokemon in B+ I don't think it should move any higher than that due to being very easy to whittle down and bait for any offensive mon that can smack it super effectively. Granted, many wallbreakers are, but essentially auto-dying to any flying move hurts. A lot. My main beef, though, is hat Mega Heracross just isn't as good as many of the mons in A-. I mostly referencing Starmie here, which in my opinion is definitely superior to Mega Heracross.

 

[Albacore]

I've been kinda going back and forth on whether or not I think TTar should be A+ rank. Since pretty much everything has been said about why it would merit a rise, I’m going to focus more on its flaws here.

The popularity and effectiveness of Excadrill and Keldeo is a double edged sword for it, since, while it does provide great support to both of these, it’s also very weak to both, meaning that a team with Tyranitar needs to account for these two more than usual (which is especially annoying in Excadrill’s case since actual answers to it are very limited). There’s also a bunch of other stuff that can deal with it relatively easily depending on what coverage it runs, if you disregard the Band set which suffers from a bunch of other flaws and clearly isn’t the ste that’s pushing it into A+ rank territory.

This doesn’t necessarily prevent a Pokemon from being A+, after all, Heatran and Ferrothorn are weak to a bunch of things and are still A+, but both of these are imo a lot more splashable since the things they’re weak to are generally not as hard to deal with, they can wear down their checks more easily, have an easier time handling multiple things per battle, and they hold their own against a large portion of the tier better than TTar, whose typing renders it weak to a pretty big number of Pokemon. TTar itself needs support to function, so using kinda restricts you into a certain type of team.

But once again, this doesn’t prevent a Pokemon from being A+ if the support it provides is good enough : just look at Mega Sableye. And while, like Sableye, TTar does provide really good and reliable support, it doesn’t really do that much else than what it’s specifically used for, and as a result, isn’t as guaranteed to put in work. I’ve had quite a few battles where TTar just could not do anything, and that’s pretty much never the case for Mega Sableye unless you misplay horribly.

I’m still not sure it should stay in A rank, though. You can forgive any flaws a support Pokemon has if builds that rely on it are very potent, and that’s arguably the case for Tyranitar. It’s certainly a pretty defining threat,and a godsend to a bunch of teams, but I’m just not convinced the support it provides is quite good enough to mitigate its flaws entirely.


Speaking of dark types that may rise, after playing around with it more, Hoopa-U does seem like an S rank to me. It’s kind of an odd case in the sense that, unlike the current S rank lineup, it’s not splashable at all. However, it is a very, very good Pokemon to build around. In fact, I’ve had more success building around Hoopa than anything else recently, and I’d even call it the most threatening Pokemon in the tier period. As long as you provide minimal support, it simply shreds teams, and surprisingly consistently too. You can use the argument that it’s bad against offense, which is kinda true, but it’s so ridiculously good against everything else that it’s definitely worth it, and besides, it can still use/bluff Scarf and come in on various special attackers, which will lead to, if not a KO, then at least massive damage on a key dark resist. Anything else than offense just hates dealing with Hoopa-U, and often loses like 3 Pokemon to it.

Another great thing about Hoopa-U is that it’s completely and utterly brainless. I’ve used Hoopa somewhere around 30 times in the past few days and I think I maybe clicked something to other than its dark STAB twice. It takes no effort to use, and while predicting does definitely help, it’s not even needed since Hoopa hits Dark resists so hard anyway. It’s kinda hilarious how your opponent always knows exactly what’s going to happen, yet is powerless to prevent it.

And yes, it has some pretty obvious flaws, but they’re pretty negligible when it’s so good, especially given the way the metagame is going. It’s a bit like Sableye when it was S rank : you can’t just slap it on your team and expect it to work, however, teams that use it happen to be particularly effective at the moment very effective. I wouldn’t say the discovery of the Specs set is really that much of a factor to its rise, (it’s barely different from Band all things considered) but the slight decline of hyper offense and shift towards pivot-based bulky offense/balance, which Hoopa-U is both excellent on and excellent against (especially MLatias teams which it pretty much autowins against) are great things for it. Although that may change in the future, the metagame is particularly kind to Hoopa-U at the moment, and the rankings should reflect that.

Oh yeah and Latias should drop, regardless of whether MLatias rises or not. Don't really feel like elaborating much, it's just a harder to justify using than anything in A-, especially when you compare it to stuff like Starmie.