Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[kek123]

Terrackion B+ -> -A
I think that terrakion should rise because of it diversity of sets and it more than satisfactory power with two stabs that are really good and being in the same speed tier as keldeo , and the offensive focus of the meta helps it to, it works great as a lead with taunt and stealth rocks I think its two choiced sets brings a great offensive presence as well a being a great knock of sponge with justified its a great power house with a good move pool , just food for thought though

 

[Subjugator]

I don't see any very good arguments against Landorus-Therian staying in A+ Rank. It is undeniably the definition of OU, as not only it is the most used, but it also has extreme versatility, power, bulk, movepool, offensive and defensive typing, and manages to stay afloat despite metagame shifts.

Viable Sets: Defensive, Offensive, Double Dance, Scarf, Swords Dance Salac

Offensive Moves Commonly Used: Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Rock Tomb, Earthquake, Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Superpower, U-Turn, Explosion, Substitute

Utility Moves Commonly Used: Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Smack Down, Toxic


The first thing that stands out to me is that Landorus-Therian is found on 30% of all Pokemon OU teams, the highest in the tier as a matter of fact. Even though in no way does high usage mean viability, but this does imply a correlation. Landorus-Therian is viable on several playstyles, and still is viable, through a number of metagame shifts, so it has stood the test of time. The ugly, hammerhead rocky bulldog is one of the most versatile in existence, as it is able to play roles such as Defensive and Offensive and many others that make it very splashable. If you run defensive builds, you find that Landorus-T can switch into a plethora of physical attackers, Intimidate them, and wall them in their face. If you run an offensive build you discover Landorus-Therian's awesome offensive and defensive typing that gives STAB on the highly spammable Earthquake, coupled with a Base 145 Attack. With a Choice Scarf you see that Landorus-Therian has a speed tier that is fast enough at +1 to outspeed and get the jump on at many of the tier's worst, such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, and Keldeo. I don't know much about the Double Dance, Scarf and Swords Dance Salac Sets, but I DO know that at +2, something is going to die.

Something that can be a rampaging offensive powerhouse and an indestructible fortress of solitude, among other things, should be S Rank imo. Yes, it does have it's round of flaws, but none of these are very big and none of these can't be solved with proper support. A thumbs-up for me.

 

[ethanlol]

I agree with the posts bumping up Landorus-T to S Rank. The reasoning for this is because it has a good ability (Intimidate), good typing, good attack (145), good speed, good STAB Earthquake. It can play as Scarf, Defensive, Double Dance etc. It truly has so many things that it can do which is why it is such a meta-defining mon. I agree with all the S Hype around it because of how versitile it is. The only glaring weakness is it's weakness to common types such as water and ice. It also provides good Momentum for Offense. It just does so much things that a lot of teams appreciate.

SSSSS Rank for Landorus-T

 

[TURBODERP]

In addition to all the points said about Lando-T deserving to go to S (which I fully support), there's also the reality that Lando-T is one of very, very few mons (Keldeo is probably another) where if you don't rapidly figure out (based on the opposing team's mons) what set it is, you can just instantly lose the game. As in, you think that the opposing Lando-T is Scarfed because they keep hard switching it out, when in reality it's Double Dance or just SD, and after one boost your normal checks/counters to Scarf Lando-T get blasted through. Just knowing what item Lando-T is running doesn't guarantee your safety-there are SD sets which run Leftovers to semi-bluff a bulkier set for instance. Keldeo is kinda similar in that Sub-CM is becoming more uncommon but it can completely run over teams that can handle Scarf/Life Orb Keldeo.

 

[Flarowak]

Idk why Lando-T ever really wasn't S-rank from the beginning tbh, and it should definitely be there now, since it is pretty much the biggest threat in the meta atm. All the points have been made, but I'll recap. Offensive and Defensive synergy and a typing that goes well with both playstyles as well as a great ability. Crazy versatility in its movepool as well as it's sets that it is able to run, making it extremely difficult to deal with at all times. 90% of the time when you see that mon on screen you consider it your #1 threat and try to take it out first. Lando-T for S please, he has earned it for the longest.

I would like to make a bit of an odd nom, but I do feel it's fitting. I've been using this mon A LOT lately and I feel like it deserves a bit of a bump.

Mega Absol for C+

Although it isn't the greatest and there arecertainly better choices, Mega Absol can really do a large amount of damage to teams in the current meta from my experience. I've fpund it's mixed attacking set to come with a bit of unpredictability and to pack quite a punch. Ice beam seems to be a great move for it to ruin a lot of common threats days sich as garchomp, lando and gliscor. All 3 of these mons typically think they can wall absol too so most times try to stay in and eat the ice beam. Fire blast is always a good option as well and I have found thunderbolt to be a bit more niche, but depending on what you need help taking out it works. It works as a pretty great revenge killer and with a little support it functions as a pretty great sweeper as well. At times it can even function as somewhat of a wallbreaker as well for it's teammates to help them procure sweeps. Again, not the greatest, but I feel it has enough unpredictability and niche to earn at least C+ between it's SD and AoA sets.

 

[matthewc20090]

Entei to B-

This is my first post here, plz dont hurt me

Entei should rise imo because a lot of it's "counters" are crippled by a burn (chomp, hippo, lando) unlike the other c+ mons. Nothing want to switch into entei because of a burn threat, and Espeed lols over other priority users (talonflame, pinsir) and lets it be a great revenge killer. Fire typing is actually ok defensively, as it resists bp and shard, two very common priority moves. It's speed tier, while not great, is enough to outspeed stuff like excadrill, and Espeed helps with that anyways. The rise of stuff like amoongus scarfchi and clefable makes it's job of wallbreaking a lot easier. Unlike the other c+ mons, it can actually take a hit, hit like a truck back, and still be faster than a good amount of the tier. Stealth rock weakness sucks for it, but rapid spin/defog support is pretty splashable. So yeah, entei to b-.

 

[Mr James Grey]

Alright there's actually a few mons this time around I have experience with so I'll comment on some of them.

Starmie A- -> A:
This guy is kinda in a weird spot IMO because it can either do its job super well or just be kinda meh based on how your team matches up with your opponent. It is undeniably the best spinner in the tier, and even though it has a relatively low special attack for an offensive Mon it makes up for it with its stellar coverage, not to mention analytic. As for whether or not it should move up, I'm kinda leaning towards "yes" but could see why it shouldn't. Everyone will rave about the power analytic provides but I think it's other ability natural cure is just as useful in this meta. With scald everywhere, starmie makes a phenomenal absorber, especially with keldeo blowing through the tier like it is rn. And being a great keldeo check is another plus- unless it's scarf you always outspeed obviously, and starmie doesnt give a shit about calm mind boosts because of psyshock. Of course we all know starmie has issues with dark types and pursuit, but the meta is beginning to adapt to darkspam so it's a problem that, while not going away, is receding somewhat. Another problem it has is that it's really easy to wear down with a combination of coming in on hazards, life orb recoil, and any burns it absorbs while out. This issue can be kind of mitigated by running recover or leftovers, but if you run the former you miss out on that sexy coverage that is vital to starmie's effectiveness, and if you run the latter you lose out on a lot of power. Of course you can always run the bulky set (which I admittedly do love) but that set's viability has fallen a little. To sum things up though, I hesitantly think starmie should be given a raise, but if the meta proves foul we can always move it back down.

Klefki A- -> B+:
No, no, no, no, no. No drops. This little guy stays A-. He is arguably the best utility mon around for offense. Your basic klefki set looks something like Spikes/(Foul Play/Play Rough/Flash Cannon)/utility move/utility move. That is what I think is so great about the keys: you really get to decide what you want klefki to do for your team. And until you've used all those moves, often times your opponent wont know which ones you are running. This unpredictability allows klefki to be a great disrupter in OU. For example, a move that in my opinion is overlooked on klefki is magic bounce. Often times when klefki comes in, your opponent will switch in their bulky ground expecting a t-wave. Instead you can set up a spike stack on the switch in. Now usually, klefki would switch out of the bulky ground for fear of an earthquake, and if your opponent tries to predict this they might try to set up stealth rocks on you. But if you magic coat, those rocks will bounce right back! Of course we can theorymon about this kind of situation all day, but this is a tactic that I've actually put to use several times. I'll try to get a replay or two later. This was just one example, but my point is klefki has many tools at its disposal that allow it to surprise the opponent and disrupt what would otherwise be good plays on their part. Because of this, I'd say that klefki should definitely stay in A-.

I wont make a big long post about it, but I also wanted to mention that Mamoswine definitely needs to drop. The meta just hasn't been friendly to our frozen piggy friend, and even with his ridiculous power he has a hard time doing anything with that miserable base 80 speed. Definite drop.

I might add more about Toge later, but right now I'll just say keep it in B+.

 

[SketchUp]

: C --> C- or D
I like to use Krookodile in OU but it honestly is not really useful. So for those who don't know: Krookodile is an offensive Stealth Rock user with the power behind LO EQ and Knock Off, it can Pursuit trap slower Psychics and Heatran and it can check pokemon like Excadrill and Tyranitar because of Intimidate. So what exactly does Krookodile to what either Landorus-T or Tyranitar can't do? Almost nothing. I have build quiet a few times with Krookodile and the amount of teams it fits better on your team than either Offensive Rocks Lando-T, Scarftar or Bulky TTar are so small simply because the only situations you want Krookodile is if you want a combination of the niches of Landorus-T and Tyranitar. Of course Krookodile hits harder, can directly switch in against Hoopa-U and doesn't have big 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Ice (making it a better check to pokemon like Mega Manectric, Tyranitar and Toxicroak) but that's pretty much everything it has over both Landorus-T and Tyranitar. The biggest argument for a drop is that Krookodile is just not splashable at all. Landorus-T and Tyranitar just fit better on almost every team and there are only a few situations where you would prefer Krookodile. For example: You want to support CM Latios by trapping Jirachi, Heatran and Hoopa-U while also checking Tyranitar and Excadrill because they really annoy CM Latios. Landorus-T can't do the former and Tyranitar can't do the later but that's about it.

 

[Subjugator]

How does everybody feel about Emboar? It shouldn't really rise, but after laddering with it, I am completely amazed at how underrated it is. Emboar has a good physical movepool with Reckless, two nice STABs and a Base 123 Attack that hits with a Flare Blitz so hard that even Pokemon that resist it somewhat struggle to take it. Even mons that you would think would kill Emboar such as Mega Altaria and Slowbro are both hit hard by Head Smash and Wild Charge. Slowbro even loses to Emboar if it gets hit by Wild Charge on the switch. Mega Altaria can win against Emboar, but it still takes a huge chunk of damage from it. Even then, Mega Altaria only wins if it Mega Evolves prior. In addition, if Emboar is Jolly, it can outpace and defeat Support Mega Altaria with another Head Smash when it tries to switch in. There are other walls that are listed here.

Of course, Emboar isn't without his flaws. Lack of bulk and speed means that it must prey on a slow and defensive metagame to thrive, which this one is not. The sheer popularity of Landorus-Therian, TankChomp, the hype of Mega Latias, and the fact that it can't beat many of the walls 1v1 and much more cause Emboar to not reach its full potential, which is why it shouldn't rise. But, if you need the power of a freakin' nuclear bomb in your hands, and a cool macho pig wrestler at your side, consider Emboar for once. You may be surprised :).

The key thing about Emboar is prediction. A well-predicted Wild Charge will fell your opponent's Gyarados in a matter of seconds, a timed Head Smash can cause brain damage to the opponent's Mega Altaria.
EMBOAR VERSUS

Calcs and Matchup

vs

Life Orb
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 221-263 (56 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Choice Band
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 256-302 (64.9 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Conclusion:
Emboar, with a bit of luck and prediction, can defeat Slowbro on the switch-in.

vs

Life Orb
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 187-221 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 205-242 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Choice Band
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 237-279 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Conclusion:
Jolly Variants carrying Head Smash can brutalize Support Mega Altaria, on the switch-in.

vs

Life Orb
252+ Atk Life Orb Emboar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 218-257 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Choice Band
252+ Atk Choice Band Emboar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 250-295 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Conclusion:
TankChomp wins, but a lack of recovery means that it doesn't particularly want to take Superpower.

vs

Life Orb
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 168-199 (43.9 - 52%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 153-181 (40 - 47.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 127-151 (33.2 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 139-165 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 253-298 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 230-270 (60.2 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 191-226 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 211-248 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Choice Band
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 193-228 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 161-190 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 289-342 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-285 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Conclusion:
Once Lando-T gets his paws on him, it's over, but in the meantime, Landorus-Therian is hit hard by Flare Blitz and Head Smash, and since Lando-T Defensive is outsped by Emboar, Emboar can come in hard and hit with Flare Blitz before being dispatched by Earthquake. But unless Lando-T's set is already determined, Emboar unfortunately falls.

vs

Life Orb
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 8+ Def Gliscor: 220-261 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Choice Band
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 8+ Def Gliscor: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Conclusion:
Jolly Emboar outspeeds Gliscor and can mortally wound Gliscor before it is hit with Earthquake.

vs

Life Orb
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 207-243 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 226-266 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Choice Band
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 261-307 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Conclusion:
Sadly, Emboar loses again to a fat hippo, but at least some damage is dealt.

As you can see, Emboar does not win against any of these 1v1, and the ones that it does win on, it generally must rely on prediction and switch-ins. Emboar can also deal a huge chunk of damage towards most of these. Emboar isn't a very good Pokemon, but for a D-Rank mon, this isn't pretty damn bad in my opinion.

 

[Ramses]

Speaking of drops...

:C- --> D or Unranked
I really don't see the reason why this was still on the Rankings. It literally offers nothing for a team but a horrid spinner and setter. Really, there isn't any reason this should be used over the other countless Steel-types in the tier. It's most comparable by far to Ferrothorn and Skarmory, the former of the two sets Spikes and Stealth Rock extremely well itself, as well as maintain a constant method of chip damage through it's individual attacks and Leech Seed, while the latter can set Rock and Spikes while having Defog and reliable recovery. If you get to the point where you need to compress a hazard setter and remover, but only Forretress fits, you need to either rethink the build or just try Skarmory anyway.

:C- --> D or Unranked
I've used Froslass a bit and I have to say that's its extremely underwhelming. It's only true niche is being a suicide spikes setter, but there's little to no reason to not use Klefki over it. Klefki has so much great utility in priority Spikes + Thunder Wave and it usually pulls its wait in improving your matchup against opposing teams, bulky with Spikes, and offensive with Thunder Wave. I'm sincerely hoping no one mentions an offensive set since it hits like a pillow.

 

[HailFall]

Speaking of drops...

:C- --> D or Unranked
I really don't see the reason why this was still on the Rankings. It literally offers nothing for a team but a horrid spinner and setter. Really, there isn't any reason this should be used over the other countless Steel-types in the tier. It's most comparable by far to Ferrothorn and Skarmory, the former of the two sets Spikes and Stealth Rock extremely well itself, as well as maintain a constant method of chip damage through it's individual attacks and Leech Seed, while the latter can set Rock and Spikes while having Defog and reliable recovery. If you get to the point where you need to compress a hazard setter and remover, but only Forretress fits, you need to either rethink the build or just try Skarmory anyway.

Forry has a few small niches in rapid spin, access to 3 types of hazards, and volt switch allowing it to maintain momentum. Its certainly not amazing but unranked seems like taking it a step too far when you consider that this role compression is necessary for some teams

 

[AM]

Yeah I don't agree with Lando-T to S now, that's pushing it too high. Calling it an animal like Torn-T, the ease of Keldeo, or just the diversity and splashability of Clef is not necessarily too off but it's enough to how you play a Lando where it's fine as one of the better A+ mons. A lot of these lure options presented in the support noms are super team specific, like Smack Down, and a lot of times the idea of breaking its checks and counters means it needs to forgo a certain matchup to something else. It's definitely a dangerous mon but I've never been like "great here we go again with Lando-T" like I do with Torn-T when it's coming back again for about the 5th - 10th~ time in a match due to Regen. A lot of Lando-Ts success depends on the build catered around it, not on its own traits a lot of times. Definitely one of the top 3-5 A+ ranked mons but not S to me strength wise.

 

[jvl101993]

Yeah I don't agree with Lando-T to S now, that's pushing it too high. Calling it an animal like Torn-T, the ease of Keldeo, or just the diversity and splashability of Clef is not necessarily too off but it's enough to how you play a Lando where it's fine as one of the better A+ mons. A lot of these lure options presented in the support noms are super team specific, like Smack Down, and a lot of times the idea of breaking its checks and counters means it needs to forgo a certain matchup to something else. It's definitely a dangerous mon but I've never been like "great here we go again with Lando-T" like I do with Torn-T when it's coming back again for about the 5th - 10th~ time in a match due to Regen. A lot of Lando-Ts success depends on the build catered around it, not on its own traits a lot of times. Definitely one of the top 3-5 A+ ranked mons but not S to me strength wise.

I have to agree with this. Lando-T is a mon I use on virtually every one of my teams now, but I think it's more a top A+ threat, rather than a S Pokemon.

Yeah: we know about the sheer diversity in its sets and overall role compression it offers to teams, but I don't consider it a threat like the three S-class mons. AM also makes a really strong point in that Lando-T doesn't really have the best ways of "dealing with" its checks and counters. Torn-T has its wide movepool and unpredictability, letting you cater its moveset to whatever the team needs. Keldeo has Scald: while fishing for burns isn't exactly the most reliable method, the common Keldeo switch-ins don't really appreciate Burns (bulky Grasses, Latis, Azu, etc.). Clefable has that overall splashability factor and a moveslot that, again, can be used to cater to the team's needs. And like Scald, Thunder Wave isn't the most reliable way of dealing with something, but it is a way to really cripple its checks and counters. Lando-T really doesn't have that.

It's going to be one of the most used Pokemon in this current meta because of what it has to offer, but as a sheer threat, I wouldn't put it in S. Keep in A+.

 

[kingmickey27]

I have to agree with this. Lando-T is a mon I use on virtually every one of my teams now, but I think it's more a top A+ threat, rather than a S Pokemon.

Yeah: we know about the sheer diversity in its sets and overall role compression it offers to teams, but I don't consider it a threat like the three S-class mons. AM also makes a really strong point in that Lando-T doesn't really have the best ways of "dealing with" its checks and counters. Torn-T has its wide movepool and unpredictability, letting you cater its moveset to whatever the team needs. Keldeo has Scald: while fishing for burns isn't exactly the most reliable method, the common Keldeo switch-ins don't really appreciate Burns (bulky Grasses, Latis, Azu, etc.). Clefable has that overall splashability factor and a moveslot that, again, can be used to cater to the team's needs. And like Scald, Thunder Wave isn't the most reliable way of dealing with something, but it is a way to really cripple its checks and counters. Lando-T really doesn't have that.

It's going to be one of the most used Pokemon in this current meta because of what it has to offer, but as a sheer threat, I wouldn't put it in S. Keep in A+.

While I don't think Landorus-T should move up, I don't think this is the right way to judge Landorus-T. It's kind of like the Mega Beedrill discussion I saw a few pages back where people were judging Beedrill based on how it couldn't rip apart teams rather than how well it could do its main job (momentum gainer). Unless we're talking about the Double Dance set, Landorus-T is usually trying to gain momentum for its team (the defensive and offensive stealth rock sets are probably the best sets) while checking several prominent threats in the tier like Charizard X, Garchomp, other Landorus-T and Excadrill. In fact, being choice locked into a ground type move is generally always a bad thing mostly because of Landorus-T's omnipresence. And often times, trying to sweep with Charizard X, Garchomp, other Landorus-T and to a lesser extent Excadrill is so restrictive because of Landorus-T. And of course you got the other positives like role compression and such.

On the other hand, Offensive Landorus-T easily gets screwed over by Rotom-W, Gliscor, Skarmory, and other Landorus-T (ironically, its popularity also screws it over) which often hurts its viability and yeah the "lure options" are often sacrificing something valuable. It's Defensive sets are heavily prone to being worn down from repeated assaults so it's pivoting and checking days are somewhat limited. I don't think that it has the right tools to be as effective as the current S-rank pokemon because it's defensive sets have a huge problem in getting worn down while the offensive sets gets completely screwed by common universal defensive threats in the tier. So Landorus-T should probably stay in A+


Something I have been curious about is Garchomp. currently, it's Tank chomp set has been rather lacking. Nothing is more satisfying than watching Talonflame and Mega Lopunny kill themselves don't get me wrong, but it gets worn down far too easily with hazards and constant switching in (even more so than Landorus-T because the latter has a flying type giving it an immunity to spikes, and the ability to hold lefties which somewhat helps with its lack of reliable recovery). In a tier where sand has become so common and Earthquakes from Excadrill are being flung everywhere, Landorus-T is often the better choice for a bulky ground type. It's still a very good answer to priority users and it is still a reliable stealth rock setter, but it is worse than Landorus-T by a wide margin in the current meta.

Generally it's offensive sets are a bit better right now but are those sets A+ worthy? because if I recall correctly, Garchomp moved up to A+ because of its Rocky Helmet set and not its Offensive sets earlier in ORAS. 102 base speed is rather slow by ORAS standards, it often stacks weaknesses when teambuilding, it has some difficulty switching in and it has common and universal counters like Keldeo, Latios and Weavile. Breaking something is generally really restrictive due to Clefable and Landorus-T. It's even worse for the choice scarf set especially now that revenge killing +1 Mega Charizard X isn't as important now. Locking Garchomp into relatively weak earthquakes and outrages in a tier where Landorus-T and fairies are everywhere is generally not good.

tl;dr Landorus-T: Stay A+
Garchomp: Sets have gotten significantly worse...is it still A+?

 

[Shuple]

While I don't think Landorus-T should move up, I don't think this is the right way to judge Landorus-T. It's kind of like the Mega Beedrill discussion I saw a few pages back where people were judging Beedrill based on how it couldn't rip apart teams rather than how well it could do its main job (momentum gainer). Unless we're talking about the Double Dance set, Landorus-T is usually trying to gain momentum for its team (the defensive and offensive stealth rock sets are probably the best sets) while checking several prominent threats in the tier like Charizard X, Garchomp, other Landorus-T and Excadrill. In fact, being choice locked into a ground type move is generally always a bad thing mostly because of Landorus-T's omnipresence. And often times, trying to sweep with Charizard X, Garchomp, other Landorus-T and to a lesser extent Excadrill is so restrictive because of Landorus-T. And of course you got the other positives like role compression and such.

On the other hand, Offensive Landorus-T easily gets screwed over by Rotom-W, Gliscor, Skarmory, and other Landorus-T (ironically, its popularity also screws it over) which often hurts its viability and yeah the "lure options" are often sacrificing something valuable. It's Defensive sets are heavily prone to being worn down from repeated assaults so it's pivoting and checking days are somewhat limited. I don't think that it has the right tools to be as effective as the current S-rank pokemon because it's defensive sets have a huge problem in getting worn down while the offensive sets gets completely screwed by common universal defensive threats in the tier. So Landorus-T should probably stay in A+


Something I have been curious about is Garchomp. currently, it's Tank chomp set has been rather lacking. Nothing is more satisfying than watching Talonflame and Mega Lopunny kill themselves don't get me wrong, but it gets worn down far too easily with hazards and constant switching in (even more so than Landorus-T because the latter has a flying type giving it an immunity to spikes, and the ability to hold lefties which somewhat helps with its lack of reliable recovery). In a tier where sand has become so common and Earthquakes from Excadrill are being flung everywhere, Landorus-T is often the better choice for a bulky ground type. It's still a very good answer to priority users and it is still a reliable stealth rock setter, but it is worse than Landorus-T by a wide margin in the current meta.

Generally it's offensive sets are a bit better right now but are those sets A+ worthy? because if I recall correctly, Garchomp moved up to A+ because of its Rocky Helmet set and not its Offensive sets earlier in ORAS. 102 base speed is rather slow by ORAS standards, it often stacks weaknesses when teambuilding, it has some difficulty switching in and it has common and universal counters like Keldeo, Latios and Weavile. Breaking something is generally really restrictive due to Clefable and Landorus-T. It's even worse for the choice scarf set especially now that revenge killing +1 Mega Charizard X isn't as important now. Locking Garchomp into relatively weak earthquakes and outrages in a tier where Landorus-T and fairies are everywhere is generally not good.

tl;dr Landorus-T: Stay A+
Garchomp: Sets have gotten significantly worse...is it still A+?

Garchomp<Landorus-T IMO,yeah I agree with your suggestion about Garchomp.

Lando-T IMO is a combination of Tank and Pivot,while Tank Chomp is a Tank which acts a bit worse than Lando-T both on offensive and defensive sides,while also a Contact Punisher,or...a U-Turn Punisher,but unlike STAB U-Turn users like Mega Scizor and Mega Beedrill,many non-STAB U-Turn Pokemons can do heavy damage on it by their STAB moves,such as Lando-T,Torn-T,and Hydreigon.It should get a lower Rank than Landorus-T IMO.

As for the Lando-T,IMO it is almost the same level on threat as the Torn-T,with less coverage but more switch-in chances(LO Torn-T is fragile both on physical and special,AV set has good special bulks but not that powerful).Both are dangerous mons right now.

 

[DracoNinja]

kingmickey27

what has actually changed that tankchomp is now not as good? i still find it perfectly fine as a sr setter, and spikestack has always been a commonplace in the tier. dunno i've always felt that chomp and landt check different things, chomp checks lop, bisharp, heatran, sciz better while landt checks zard x, exca, talon, pinsir etc u get the point. sd chomp is pretty good at breaking up offense/balance from the get go and shift momentum to your side but becomes a significantly worse check to the above mentioned mons, which is actually a pretty big trade off, good or bad is up to your team. so what if chomp's typing "stacks", the only relevant ground chomp probably wants to be paired up with is scarf landt which is fine considering chomp can weaken stuff like hippo/rotomw with toxic or skarm/ferro with fire blast and pave a way for landt to win lategame. not sure as to how keld/latios/weav are "counters" for chomper, keld taking around 45~50% from eq alone is actually a pretty big dent, lati for sure is taking a big amount from dtail and weav is also definitely taking a huge amount from eq, and that's just from the defensive set with 0 investment in attack. never found scarf chomp useful but i've never played with it so im not gonna comment on that. think chomp is still one of the better mons in a+, i don't see a drop in viability in terms of its tankchomp set but a rise in viability in terms of its offensive sr set, which if anything should solidify its position in a+ rather than drop it.

Shuple

care to explain how landt is almost on the same level on threat as tornt? i'm gonna assume when u mean "offensive threat" u will be talking about sd+rp since sr sets obviously can't hold a candle to tornt in terms of offensive power and i think its dumb to compare scarf landt to lo tornt since they play completely different roles. flying as an offensive typing is so much stronger than ground rn, its resists aren't that many in the game and tornt usually has ways to counterplay/wear down those checks that aren't named manec or rotomw. landt having a significantly shittier speed tier compared to tornt already makes it less threatening vs offense, meaning it requires a turn of set-up compared to tornt. i don't think there is a set that can compare to tornt being able to sponge hits from stuff like serp/keld/gengar etc so there is no point for comparison. not sure how dd landt has "more switch-in chances" compared to tornt, they don't even switch in vs the same stuff to begin with. if u could enlighten me how landt is "almost on the same level on threat as the Torn-T", it would be great.


would like to bring up a potential rise for mheracross from b+ to a-. i feel that rn the meta is more favorable for it, more scarf ttar, more sand offense, more mlati balance all of which are huge boons for mheracross since it straight up dismantles those type of builds. been taking a liking to adamant mheracross with sub rn, never felt that sd was really needed but with adamant nature u can 2hko clef with rock blast from full hp which is pretty great imo. sub is pretty nice as a failsafe considering it forces out a ton of switches and considering most teams end up having to pivot around to beat mheracross, sub pretty much guarentees you will kill something just so your opp can break the sub and force u out. can't really switch in on anything cuz it still kinda risks getting 2hkod, i think it's on the same level as breloom in terms of wallbreaking potential, altho admittedly it may be an incorrect comparison considering breloom fares better vs offense while mhera fares better vs balance but that's the closest you can get.

 

[Scandal]

A+ has two thresholds the higher A+ stuff such as Mega Scizor, Mega Char-X, M-Diancie, Lando-T, you know the big dogs and then some of the lower A+ stuff such as Thundurus, Manaphy, M-Lopunny who are big threats but not always going to put in a crazy amount of work or splashability on teams. Weavile can definitely be in the same rank as Gengar who's Wisp variants screw over every would be answer and switch into it in tandem with its coverage options while taking a dump on those Chomp, Tar, Skarm, Clef balances people have an over dependency on in a lot of tour settings such as OST. It can definitely be in the same rank as Kyurem-B who is arguably to me an A- rank mon but it won't become a realization until a couple of months down the line. It can definitely be in the same rank as something like Tyranitar who Idc what anyone says is such a great mon that provides so much utility to a team and defines the pursuiter role in OU and should be A+ under the support role. It can be in the same rank as Gliscor, Serperior, and most of the other A rank mons, mons that funnily enough some teams and builders haven't learned how to handle even to this day because of their snow balling effects.

I know I'm a bit late, but this made me wonder if it'd be better to change how we list the mons in the ranking. For example we could do it like the UU viability ranking and sort the mons by viability within their tiers. So Lando-T would be high A+ mon while Thundurus would be a lower A+ mon. Or we could even do it like the BW OU viability ranking and add more subrankings. Personally I'd prefer the second option because there are just so many mons in one ranking where some of them shouldn't be in the same rank as other ones but shouldn't really drop either. Any option is fine tho as long as it makes the ranking clearer.

 

[Clair]

We already have a huge amount of discussion and regular nominations for Pokemon to change tiers within the current system. Ordering every OU-viable Pokemon from best to worst would be a massive and ongoing undertaking - and for what?

As a guide for newer players, the current rankings system works fine at showing them what is viable and what is less so. An extra nuanced ranking system isn't adding any value. It would just be an outlet for more experienced players to debate ad infinitum. Even as an attempt to provide an accurate snapshot of the metagame, the complexity and subjectivity involved would be prohibitive.

Moving on, I find the Landorus discussion really interesting. People often say that splashability =/= viability but this isn't really the case. Consider defensive Lando-T. I agree with AM that its net impact on games is less than that of our current S ranks. However, by checking so many threats at the teambuilding stage, Lando alleviates a theoretical defensive burden from its team mates; they avoid having to use otherwise inferior options to patch up weaknesses. This results in optimised set choices and a more effective team. In this scenario, Landorus' contribution to the team's success goes beyond its direct impact in matches.

While obviously impossible to quantify, this factor should be something to keep in mind when ranking exceptionally "splashable" mons. In terms of Lando specifically, I'm pretty ambivalent either way but would lean towards putting it in S rank.

 

[Scandal]

That's why I said that I'd prefer the option of adding more subranks. That way you wouldn't have to order every mon, just a group of them. And if you look at the BW ranking the A-Rank is the only one with extra subranks. And since the A-Rank is the only one that actually needs more subranks we could do it like that. So I don't really see much reason not to do it.

 

[Vert]

Garchomp<Landorus-T IMO,yeah I agree with your suggestion about Garchomp.

Lando-T IMO is a combination of Tank and Pivot,while Tank Chomp is a Tank which acts a bit worse than Lando-T both on offensive and defensive sides,while also a Contact Punisher,or...a U-Turn Punisher,but unlike STAB U-Turn users like Mega Scizor and Mega Beedrill,many non-STAB U-Turn Pokemons can do heavy damage on it by their STAB moves,such as Lando-T,Torn-T,and Hydreigon.It should get a lower Rank than Landorus-T IMO.

As for the Lando-T,IMO it is almost the same level on threat as the Torn-T,with less coverage but more switch-in chances(LO Torn-T is fragile both on physical and special,AV set has good special bulks but not that powerful).Both are dangerous mons right now.

the difference between garchomp and landorus-t is if you want that chip damage versus checking sand. first of all, i would like to kindly address that you check yourself before making incorrect comments. lando-t, torn-t, and hydreigon aren't doing jack shit with u-turn to tankchomp

onto my stance: landorus-t isn't ready to rise in the current state of this metagame. especially, in this metagame where keldeo and rotom-w is omnipresent and are also the most annoying 'mons to deal with as well. while the comments on smack-down, knock off, toxic, etc are nice. you are being contradictory with your comments because you say all this shit landorus-t can check then by saying you have these other moveslots to do work, you lack the ability to check other shit. scarf landorus-t is an absolute shit check to excadrill and knock off rocks means you lose to talonflame. toxic asks stuff like subdd gyarados and even dragonite to set up on you late game. smack down is pretty situational and the offensive sets using it fall flat from the main purpose it should move up to s. while versatility is a good thing, i don't think it applies to the context of a landorus-t. clefable can still check the same shit even if it uses different sets because its typing and having only one good spread is what makes it so powerful. keldeo's other sets still don't prevent you from burning shit and checking scizor and bisharp for example. finally, we have tornadus-t whose av sets are just so damn hard to wear down and life orbs sets remind us of xy greninja in terms of sheer power and coverage. however, landorus-t doesn't do these things and has more of a supporting role instead of one that can be fully functional to completely demoralize teams. that is the difference between s rank and possibly one of the best 'mons in a+, landorus-t.

 

[Shuple]

DracoNinja

I'm trying to list all the checks and switch in chances of about the Viability of Landorus-T ('s Bulky set,which I think is the most viable set rn,if it can get to the S Rank it is this set it should thank to),I find talking with theory is not objective and may leads to pointless denying each other.Though I hope this could put an temporarily conclusion to the Landorus-T issue,I realized it is really complicated,during this progress I found my opinion may not be that solid too,but I’ll still put it out for discussion.


Sets:

Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Knock Off


Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge/Smack Down
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off


The extra move slot means coverage options,since these moves are regular choices of the mentioned sets,it is necessary to taking them into consideration when talking about the viability of the sets.


About the switch in side, with the top 50 Pokemon,Tornadus-T can switch into:


Skarmory,
Ferrothorn(not on T-wave/Gyro Ball),
Breloom(not on Spore/Rock Tomb),
Mega Venusaur(not on Sleep Powder),
Amoonguss(not on Spore/Stun Spore),
Opposing Scarf Earthquake,Choice Keldeo’s Secret Sword,etc.


And beat them 1v1 or forcing them to switch out,aka a check.

Though Torn-T has 3 Resistance and 1 Immune,the Ground/Fighting/Bug-Types can beat it with their second STAB move or coverage moves such as Stone Edge or Ice Punch,some on its switch in and some after its switch in,so Torn-T can’t check them and get momentum here.


Torn-T is checked by:


Rotom-Wash,
Thundurus,
Mega Diancie,
Mega Manectric,
Raikou,

Though called a check,they are mostly 3HKO by LO Torn-T and can be fouled by U-Turn.


As with Landorus-T:


Switch-in chances for Landorus-T:


Excadrill,
Garchomp(witout Toxic),
Talonflame(witout Will-o-Wisp),
Tyranitar(witout Ice Beam),
Jirachi,
Hoopa-U(Band set),
Mega Charizard X(without Will-o-Wisp),
Mega Diancie(not on Moonblast),
Magnezone,
Mega Metagross(witout Ice Punch),
Scizor(no Mega),
Opposing Scarf Earthquake,Choice Fighting-Type moves,etc.


When offensing,Landorus-T is checked by:


Opposing Landorus-T,
Ferrothorn,
Skarmory(if without Smack Down),
Rotom-W(if predicted by Smack Down,it is forced out,but not that important though),
Breloom,
Slowbro,
Hippowdon,
Gliscor,
Quagsire,

The former few checks without reliable recovery is able to break through,the latter are hard checks but U-Turn on them is a solve.

Landorus-T has 326 Attack before any investment,though not as powerful as Tornadus-T’s 301 SpA. LO Hurricane,it can 2HKO/3HKO almost any hi-usage Pokemon not listed above.Torn-T may be able to 2HKO nearly anything not checking it,while I’d point out that its main attacking move Hurricane has a 70% accuracy,with which taken into consideration its viability really exists unstability.

Torn-T also 2x weak against Stealth Rock.

What I mean by saying Landorus-T is dangerous like Tornadus-T I mean there aren’t many switch in against it,and with the only ones you face the U-Turn.A hard hitting Pokemon with U-Turn is always awesome,especially when it also has bulky.


Vertex

Yeah,I think chip damage is a better idea than Anti U-Turn.To go further,I realized I have made a poor example,I mean that Tank Chomp is conceived to take chip damage,and recoil chip damage back,which is the right way to make use of Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin.While it is difficult to operate due to its high risk of being predicted by opponent.

The common occasions Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin works IMO:


Jirachi,
(Mega) Scizor,
Bisharp and non Ice Beam Tyranitar,
Non Will-o-Wisp Talonflame,
Predict for Landorus-T’s U-turn and switch in,
Predict for Scarf/Fat Excadrill’s Iron Head/Rapid Spin and switch in,
Predict for Aqua Jet/Bullet Punch/Quick Attack and switch in,

Out of these occasion,Tank Chomp is a slow,recoverless Pokemon with just decent bulky and can do only restricted damage,it is not only "checking sands versus chip damage",it do act worse than Landorus-T on both power and damage-absorption.

 

[DracoNinja]

Shuple

sry but when was a pokemon's viability determined by the number of mons it can come in against and/or the number of checks it has? for example, keldeo has a lot more checks/counters compared to stuff in a+/a tbh, and yet doesn't have /that/ many free switch-ins so going by your logic keld shouldn't be in s. also why are you disregarding the other sets that tornt/landt have? just nitpicking ur post but fwiw the only mons in your list that actually "switch in" vs lo tornt is really rotomw lol, thund gets 2hkod by hurricane after sr, mdiancie loses to iron tail/gets 2hkod by focus blast, manec gets 2hkod by focus blast after sr, raikou loses to sr+knock off+superpower, nice switch-ins lol. that's how big of an offensive threat lo tornt is, being able to actually beat its own checks with the appropriate combination of moves. i still don't see the comparison between defensive landt vs lo tornt, they play completely different roles and hence they can't even be compared with each other because obviously landt is checking more shit because of its defensive bulk, but even then av tornt cannot compare to landt because they check completely different thinks and are tanking shit from opposite sides of the spectrum. also so what if tornt has 70% acc, when it hits something is getting bombed. so what if its "unreliable", mons is a game of "risk vs reward" anyway. i think there was a discussion about tornt's reliability when it was being nommed to s tier, so go look for it in the earlier pages. don't get how tornt's weakness to sr comes into play at all when it's not hindering its ability to fire off strong hurricanes/whatever move. i guess ur limiting its staying power especially when coupled with lo recoil but if tornt can fire a number of hurricanes repeatedly, it's v safe to assume you are fucked either way.

can you define the word "dangerous" for me. my personal definition of "dangerous" is the amount of offensive threat a mon gives, how is landt as equally threatening as tornt? how exactly is landt's u turn "strong"? it doesn't 1hko its would be switch-ins, all it does is just maintain momentum for your team, as the move is intended to be in the first place?



lol in all honesty i don't find landt deserving of s rank at all. in terms of utility wise all it does is set up sr, check a bunch of stuff but yet its facing the problem where it becomes easy to overload it, for example zard x+sand exca putting immense pressure on landt alone. i guess this can be said for just about every pivot/tank in the tier but this problem is more obvious for landt (and tbh by extension, garchomp too) cuz of its lack of recovery+the number of things it may actually need to check in a game. also there are certain conditions that need to met for landt to be a check as shuple did correctly mention, it can't just freely come in on talon cuz of fear of wisp etc. i feel that landt is only a+ tier as a supportive threat, which is appropriate considering the 4 best sr setters in the tier are landt, chomp, heatran and clef, are all a+ in their role as an sr support.* if u can convince me that landt is better/more reliable then the other 3 sr setters, i'll be inclined to agree and support a raise to s but other than that, its fine as is.

* clef is s only cuz of its cm+mg set honestly

 

[Shuple]

Shuple

sry but when was a pokemon's viability determined by the number of mons it can come in against and/or the number of checks it has? for example, keldeo has a lot more checks/counters compared to stuff in a+/a tbh, and yet doesn't have /that/ many free switch-ins so going by your logic keld shouldn't be in s. also why are you disregarding the other sets that tornt/landt have? just nitpicking ur post but fwiw the only mons in your list that actually "switch in" vs lo tornt is really rotomw lol, thund gets 2hkod by hurricane after sr, mdiancie loses to iron tail/gets 2hkod by focus blast, manec gets 2hkod by focus blast after sr, raikou loses to sr+knock off+superpower, nice switch-ins lol. that's how big of an offensive threat lo tornt is, being able to actually beat its own checks with the appropriate combination of moves. i still don't see the comparison between defensive landt vs lo tornt, they play completely different roles and hence they can't even be compared with each other because obviously landt is checking more shit because of its defensive bulk, but even then av tornt cannot compare to landt because they check completely different thinks and are tanking shit from opposite sides of the spectrum. also so what if tornt has 70% acc, when it hits something is getting bombed. so what if its "unreliable", mons is a game of "risk vs reward" anyway. i think there was a discussion about tornt's reliability when it was being nommed to s tier, so go look for it in the earlier pages. don't get how tornt's weakness to sr comes into play at all when it's not hindering its ability to fire off strong hurricanes/whatever move. i guess ur limiting its staying power especially when coupled with lo recoil but if tornt can fire a number of hurricanes repeatedly, it's v safe to assume you are fucked either way.

can you define the word "dangerous" for me. my personal definition of "dangerous" is the amount of offensive threat a mon gives, how is landt as equally threatening as tornt? how exactly is landt's u turn "strong"? it doesn't 1hko its would be switch-ins, all it does is just maintain momentum for your team, as the move is intended to be in the first place?



lol in all honesty i don't find landt deserving of s rank at all. in terms of utility wise all it does is set up sr, check a bunch of stuff but yet its facing the problem where it becomes easy to overload it, for example zard x+sand exca putting immense pressure on landt alone. i guess this can be said for just about every pivot/tank in the tier but this problem is more obvious for landt (and tbh by extension, garchomp too) cuz of its lack of recovery+the number of things it may actually need to check in a game. also there are certain conditions that need to met for landt to be a check as shuple did correctly mention, it can't just freely come in on talon cuz of fear of wisp etc. i feel that landt is only a+ tier as a supportive threat, which is appropriate considering the 4 best sr setters in the tier are landt, chomp, heatran and clef, are all a+ in their role as an sr support.* if u can convince me that landt is better/more reliable then the other 3 sr setters, i'll be inclined to agree and support a raise to s but other than that, its fine as is.

* clef is s only cuz of its cm+mg set honestly

Okay I know,problem is the word "dangerous" and "threat"(in the 2nd last post I've ever posted,might be different from yours),I mean the pressure a Pokemon put to its opponent on operating - move selecting or switch selecting - according to the result of the Pokemon's move.

I think the divergence between us might be about the importance of maintaining momentum?I think it is a "dangerous","threatening" move,you may say it is team-depandant,how useful it is is depending on the Pokemon I have can switch in,but it also prevent your opponent to get momentum,which IMO is important and momentum often leads to a kill/wallbreaking chance unless you two are both running stall team.

I don't think it is a better SR mon than that three,I suggest for Landorus-T to be S based on its U-turn and its attacking power that force its foe not to just switch in something can take U-turn and won't leave the biggest threatening Pokemon in Landorus-T's team towards its opponent to switch in and get momentum.That's why I think it is a good U-turn user,probably the best momentum gainer in the metagame.

Your first paragraph shows we really has different thinking method.To mention LO Torn-T is because it is the first set on OU Set Viability Ranking for Torn-T,the similarity of Torn-T and Lando-T is they both have a good coverage/move pool and can run U-Turn.The 2 Hurricane/2 Focus Blast statements show you love gambling,the chance to get 2 70% hit in a row is 49%,and Focus Blast is in the Other in usage stats while Iron Tail is 7.838%,which shows having these moves is a lure and let them lose to many Pokemon it could have defeated.Landorus-T can run Grass Knot,just saying,and can make its check list short almost half.

About all the Landorus-T discussion,I think I might be start from my own feeling - I feel like it is good as the other S Rank Pokemons,and my statements may leads to some misunderstanding,sry for that.But after this post I'm pretty sure I've described it out pretty correctly,and completely.If you have different opinion I probably won't respond for I might have nothing more new to say,and the discussion about this one Pokemon is long enough.

Thank you.

 

[kingmickey27]

kingmickey27

what has actually changed that tankchomp is now not as good? i still find it perfectly fine as a sr setter, and spikestack has always been a commonplace in the tier. dunno i've always felt that chomp and landt check different things, chomp checks lop, bisharp, heatran, sciz better while landt checks zard x, exca, talon, pinsir etc u get the point. sd chomp is pretty good at breaking up offense/balance from the get go and shift momentum to your side but becomes a significantly worse check to the above mentioned mons, which is actually a pretty big trade off, good or bad is up to your team. so what if chomp's typing "stacks", the only relevant ground chomp probably wants to be paired up with is scarf landt which is fine considering chomp can weaken stuff like hippo/rotomw with toxic or skarm/ferro with fire blast and pave a way for landt to win lategame. not sure as to how keld/latios/weav are "counters" for chomper, keld taking around 45~50% from eq alone is actually a pretty big dent, lati for sure is taking a big amount from dtail and weav is also definitely taking a huge amount from eq, and that's just from the defensive set with 0 investment in attack. never found scarf chomp useful but i've never played with it so im not gonna comment on that. think chomp is still one of the better mons in a+, i don't see a drop in viability in terms of its tankchomp set but a rise in viability in terms of its offensive sr set, which if anything should solidify its position in a+ rather than drop it.

Honestly Tankchomp is just not at the same level as Defensive Landorus-T these days. The main reason is because the ever so popular Excadrill can click Earthquake against Garchomp switchins more freely. Being a Bisharp check is really nice, but checks to dark types aren't difficult to come by in this tier (especially with keldeo now in S and dark spam in general losing a bit of potency) and Excadrill is just a more relevant threat in the metagame at the moment. Before this happened, Garchomp was perhaps better or at the same level as Landorus-T at one point, but the meta has shifted more in favor of landorus-t and its stronger points over chomp such as the spikes immunity, discouraging earthquake, completing voltturn cores, generally blanketing physical attacks better with its intimidate ability and typing, along with being just so much more splashable have all become much more favorable qualities to have. Yes, Garchomp and Landorus-T check different things, but the things Landorus-T check are more relevant in the metagame at the moment so the tankchomp set has fallen out of favor.

In this meta, i think Offensive Garchomp > Defensive. But something I was unsure about is whether or not its offensive sets are A+ worthy. Garchomp moved up to A+ (and was nominated for S) mostly due to its Tankchomp set. So I am questioning, with the tankchomp set being worse than Landorus-T by a very noticeable margin in this meta, is Garchomp still A+ due to its offensive sets?

 

[kek123]

Conkeldurr C+ -> B-
although Conkeldurr isn't the best pokemon in OU by a long stretch , but I think it deserves better than C+ for many reason one of them being it great more pull against this current meta having access to move like poison jab to deal with clef and ice punch for lando and chomp and access to the other elemental punches. Also conkeldurr is very versatile with 3 great ability sheer force , guts and iron fist and two main sets being life orb and assault vest. Another factor is it priority mach punch being very valuable in such a offensive meta. Also the decrease in usage of mega venusaur helps as well , also ferrothorn and heatran being as prominent as ever being is another reason.

Personally I don't get why Conkeldurr was C+ in the first place , I mean don't get me wrong I wouldn't rank conkeldurr any higher than B- but I really think that C+ is a little low for Conkeldurr being lower than things like toxicroak and lucario , but I think now is the time for it to rise with things like M-alt and Mega metagross not being as popular as previously and the meta generally suiting it now more than it did before.