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STABmons Viability Rankings Thread v3 ✿
- Thread starter skies
- Start date
Nobody else is posting so I guess I will. (Some of this post is baconbagon's but he was too lazy to post so I'm posting it for him.)
B+ -> A
Rotom-H really isn't A-rank material in a metagame where Rotom-W, Terrakion, and Keldeo are so amazingly prevalent. It's A- at the very most, but it is easily worn down and cant even hit Ground-types with Scald like Rotom-W can.
S -> A+
Landorus-T still defines the meta to an incredible extent. Every physical attacker has to prepare for it, and defensive Mega Scizor is really rare right now anyway. I view offensive sets to be absolutely incredible as well, especially Explosion sets, which lure in and destroy typical defensive answers.
A+ -> S
I mean yeah Choice Specs-boosted Water Spout is really strong at maximum health but Scald is strong and useful regardless of Keldeo's health. I agree with this, but Keldeo should become S for its ability to burn all of its foes and not for Choice Specs Water Spout.
A+ -> A
Serperior's Speed IV doesn't really matter unless it's facing another Serperior, which will most likely be running Hidden Power Fire too. However, it should drop because it's been struggling with a lot of Pokemon.
A+ -> A
I agree that this should drop. I never really thought of it as A+ material, as it's a passive supporter. Yeah, Moonblast chips Diancie very quickly and Thunder Wave is amazing, but Klefki never had the role to be A+ in the first place. This was a long time coming.
A -> A-
Terrakion and Keldeo together yes. Chansey isn't really unviable by any means, but the general vulnerability to taunt Thundurus is also annoying, and although Baton Pass / Transform is stupid as usual, it could drop. Not sure though, it's still the fattest thing ever.
A -> A+
I agree with Mega Diancie being A+. Its frailty and low base Speed pre-Mega Evolving is really annoying, but seriously providing a FakeSpeed resist + Fighting neutrality is a huge utility, and Magic Bounce is great as usual. I don't know about its synergy, I think that Magic Bounce is the utility that puts it up there. It does struggle with Mega Lopunny though just like everything else in the metagame.
A -> A+
Gyarados cannot be A+ while it's weak to Stealth Rock in a metagame where Thundurus is so prevalent, and it gets worn down so quickly without roost. There's no way is this A+ material.
A -> A-
Weavile threatens Thundurus and Landorus-T hugely, so I'd prefer A, but I can see it in A- while Shift Gear users and Mega Lopunny are around.
A- -> B
"gyarados does everything better." Did you forget about Mega Gyarados's Mold Breaker, Dark typing, and the fact that it's more threatening than regular Gyarados at +1 Atk and Spe? Seriously, how does it struggle with Rotom-H at all when Gyarados doesn't seem to?
A- -> B-
Uh.... Unaware lets it take care of setup sweepers. Immunity to Electric-type moves makes it a good switch-in to Thundurus and Magnezone, something that Gyarados doesn't have. It resists Stealth Rock, and pre-Mega Evolved Gyarados is weak to it. Sure, A- is a bit high but are you kidding me?
A- -> B+
Yeah it's bad, except the fact that it single-handedly breaks stall with Air Slash, it has Thunder Wave to cripple its switch-ins, it has Oblivion Wing to heal itself up, and its especially effective against Keldeo and Serperior.
B+ -> B
No, I think it fits in B+. It has the bulk of any other pixie and it has the ability to escape non-Choice Scarf Pursuit with Baton Pass, and it can also use Baton Pass to give teammates boosts, which is enough.
B- -> B
He's The Reptile on forums. B is okay even though Mega Sceptile is really frail in a metagame where fast Ice-types and Ice Shard users are common.
C -> B
Breloom isn't stupidly strong, and it fails to threaten much of the STABmons metagame, but yes it is unprepared for, and it OHKOes Keldeo and Serperior with +2 Mach Punch. Landorus-T does cripple it though because of Intimidate, but hey what can you do (Ganlon Berry Natural Gift). I think this a good change but Breloom still hates FakeSpeed.
Rotom-H really isn't A-rank material in a metagame where Rotom-W, Terrakion, and Keldeo are so amazingly prevalent. It's A- at the very most, but it is easily worn down and cant even hit Ground-types with Scald like Rotom-W can.
Landorus-T still defines the meta to an incredible extent. Every physical attacker has to prepare for it, and defensive Mega Scizor is really rare right now anyway. I view offensive sets to be absolutely incredible as well, especially Explosion sets, which lure in and destroy typical defensive answers.
I mean yeah Choice Specs-boosted Water Spout is really strong at maximum health but Scald is strong and useful regardless of Keldeo's health. I agree with this, but Keldeo should become S for its ability to burn all of its foes and not for Choice Specs Water Spout.
Serperior's Speed IV doesn't really matter unless it's facing another Serperior, which will most likely be running Hidden Power Fire too. However, it should drop because it's been struggling with a lot of Pokemon.
I agree that this should drop. I never really thought of it as A+ material, as it's a passive supporter. Yeah, Moonblast chips Diancie very quickly and Thunder Wave is amazing, but Klefki never had the role to be A+ in the first place. This was a long time coming.
Terrakion and Keldeo together yes. Chansey isn't really unviable by any means, but the general vulnerability to taunt Thundurus is also annoying, and although Baton Pass / Transform is stupid as usual, it could drop. Not sure though, it's still the fattest thing ever.
I agree with Mega Diancie being A+. Its frailty and low base Speed pre-Mega Evolving is really annoying, but seriously providing a FakeSpeed resist + Fighting neutrality is a huge utility, and Magic Bounce is great as usual. I don't know about its synergy, I think that Magic Bounce is the utility that puts it up there. It does struggle with Mega Lopunny though just like everything else in the metagame.
Gyarados cannot be A+ while it's weak to Stealth Rock in a metagame where Thundurus is so prevalent, and it gets worn down so quickly without roost. There's no way is this A+ material.
Weavile threatens Thundurus and Landorus-T hugely, so I'd prefer A, but I can see it in A- while Shift Gear users and Mega Lopunny are around.
"gyarados does everything better." Did you forget about Mega Gyarados's Mold Breaker, Dark typing, and the fact that it's more threatening than regular Gyarados at +1 Atk and Spe? Seriously, how does it struggle with Rotom-H at all when Gyarados doesn't seem to?
Uh.... Unaware lets it take care of setup sweepers. Immunity to Electric-type moves makes it a good switch-in to Thundurus and Magnezone, something that Gyarados doesn't have. It resists Stealth Rock, and pre-Mega Evolved Gyarados is weak to it. Sure, A- is a bit high but are you kidding me?
Yeah it's bad, except the fact that it single-handedly breaks stall with Air Slash, it has Thunder Wave to cripple its switch-ins, it has Oblivion Wing to heal itself up, and its especially effective against Keldeo and Serperior.
No, I think it fits in B+. It has the bulk of any other pixie and it has the ability to escape non-Choice Scarf Pursuit with Baton Pass, and it can also use Baton Pass to give teammates boosts, which is enough.
He's The Reptile on forums. B is okay even though Mega Sceptile is really frail in a metagame where fast Ice-types and Ice Shard users are common.
Breloom isn't stupidly strong, and it fails to threaten much of the STABmons metagame, but yes it is unprepared for, and it OHKOes Keldeo and Serperior with +2 Mach Punch. Landorus-T does cripple it though because of Intimidate, but hey what can you do
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Rhythms
rotom-h: none of the ground-types in the current metagame even like switching into rotom-h. specs sets ohko lando-t for example. and then there's defensive sets which threaten to burn with lava plume and such. it's not as easily worn down as you say, considering it has pain split to annoy the opponent. and it also doesn't need to really worry much about sr in a metagame with so much entry hazard removal.
landorus-t: meh i guess. i'm not a fan of this thing at all.
keldeo: doesn't matter much. plus specs water spout is what makes it hard to switch into, scald is what makes it impossible to switch into. unless you're toxicroak.
gyarados: uh yeah it def deserves a+ lol. rapid spin and defog are incredibly common, stealth rock isn't even an issue. plus you've got roost. and it should be running roost, unless ur like me and run offensive sets. tagging Eevee General for his thoughts on this since he uses gyarados more than anyone. i'm leaning towards a+, but he can decide.
weavile: i guess, but in the *current* meta, it needs to drop becuz of those two things.
mega gyarados: obv i didn't forget... what does dark typing provide for you? a weakness to pin missile, fighting-types, and you lose the benefits of a flying-type. the psyhic-type immunity doesn't matter when latios bops it anyways. mold breaker helps with what exactly??? giving up the ability to use regular gyarados sucks, and i'm not sold on this thing being usable at all. this is coming from someone who does use it on one of their fave teams.
quagsire: no, i am not kidding you. which set up sweepers? mega scizor 2hkoes with pin missile on a good day, thundurus easily overwhelms it, kyurem-b evades unaware, keldeo walks all over it, serperior is obv, it stops BD azu i guess but CB 2hkoes it, manaphy obviously wins, and the list goes on. unaware is cute, but it's so easy to take advantage of in the metagame. yeah it takes on magnezone, though it really hates doom desire, but a lot of things can come in on magnezone. quagsire is strictly outclassed by gyarados and will be dropping. maybe b- is an exaggeration, but it's going to be lowered. terrak also 2hkoes as well.
togekiss: show me togekiss being actually effective, and i'll keep it there. i've not ever seen it in the current metagame, and nobody is running it afaik. if you have examples, i'll keep it in a-, but i don't think that breaking stall in a metagame where stall is not as viable as other strategies is enough to keep it in the a ranks. and keep in mind that b ranks isn't even *bad*, it's just a step down from a rank, which is where togekiss belongs imo.
celebi: uh i've never seen that set used before, or even heard of it before. that sounds okay, but i still have never seen it. i don't feel strongly on this one at all since i've not used celebi as much as i should, so i guess i'll keep it in b+??
mega sceptile: oh duh i'm tired. also fast ice types doesn't matter when mega sceptile outspeeds all of them :0. ice shard sucks, but that's why it's so low on the tier list in the first place. b- is just not fair for it is what i'm getting at.
breloom: yh it's stupid strong i mean ffs +2 storm throw almost ohkoes a clefable @_@! choice band can just kinda click storm throw also, and it's gonna be doing some dmg.
i listened to ultralight beam while writing this, go listen to it here: https://soundcloud.com/musicwithmixing/ultra-light-beam. thank u for discussion rhythms
rotom-h: none of the ground-types in the current metagame even like switching into rotom-h. specs sets ohko lando-t for example. and then there's defensive sets which threaten to burn with lava plume and such. it's not as easily worn down as you say, considering it has pain split to annoy the opponent. and it also doesn't need to really worry much about sr in a metagame with so much entry hazard removal.
landorus-t: meh i guess. i'm not a fan of this thing at all.
keldeo: doesn't matter much. plus specs water spout is what makes it hard to switch into, scald is what makes it impossible to switch into. unless you're toxicroak.
gyarados: uh yeah it def deserves a+ lol. rapid spin and defog are incredibly common, stealth rock isn't even an issue. plus you've got roost. and it should be running roost, unless ur like me and run offensive sets. tagging Eevee General for his thoughts on this since he uses gyarados more than anyone. i'm leaning towards a+, but he can decide.
weavile: i guess, but in the *current* meta, it needs to drop becuz of those two things.
mega gyarados: obv i didn't forget... what does dark typing provide for you? a weakness to pin missile, fighting-types, and you lose the benefits of a flying-type. the psyhic-type immunity doesn't matter when latios bops it anyways. mold breaker helps with what exactly??? giving up the ability to use regular gyarados sucks, and i'm not sold on this thing being usable at all. this is coming from someone who does use it on one of their fave teams.
quagsire: no, i am not kidding you. which set up sweepers? mega scizor 2hkoes with pin missile on a good day, thundurus easily overwhelms it, kyurem-b evades unaware, keldeo walks all over it, serperior is obv, it stops BD azu i guess but CB 2hkoes it, manaphy obviously wins, and the list goes on. unaware is cute, but it's so easy to take advantage of in the metagame. yeah it takes on magnezone, though it really hates doom desire, but a lot of things can come in on magnezone. quagsire is strictly outclassed by gyarados and will be dropping. maybe b- is an exaggeration, but it's going to be lowered. terrak also 2hkoes as well.
togekiss: show me togekiss being actually effective, and i'll keep it there. i've not ever seen it in the current metagame, and nobody is running it afaik. if you have examples, i'll keep it in a-, but i don't think that breaking stall in a metagame where stall is not as viable as other strategies is enough to keep it in the a ranks. and keep in mind that b ranks isn't even *bad*, it's just a step down from a rank, which is where togekiss belongs imo.
celebi: uh i've never seen that set used before, or even heard of it before. that sounds okay, but i still have never seen it. i don't feel strongly on this one at all since i've not used celebi as much as i should, so i guess i'll keep it in b+??
mega sceptile: oh duh i'm tired. also fast ice types doesn't matter when mega sceptile outspeeds all of them :0. ice shard sucks, but that's why it's so low on the tier list in the first place. b- is just not fair for it is what i'm getting at.
breloom: yh it's stupid strong i mean ffs +2 storm throw almost ohkoes a clefable @_@! choice band can just kinda click storm throw also, and it's gonna be doing some dmg.
i listened to ultralight beam while writing this, go listen to it here: https://soundcloud.com/musicwithmixing/ultra-light-beam. thank u for discussion rhythms
I love Gyarados! No seriously I don't know how to build without it, but I understand its limitations. Thundurus comes in on any defensive variants, is never KO'd with Rocks up, can't be paralyzed, and forces out Gyara every time giving it a chance to Owing back HP/general Thundurus shenanigans. Sure it cold stops many threats (Heatran even with a burn, Keldeo even with a burn, most Scizors (relies on para tho), defensive Lando, FakeSpeeders without sleep moves,) it struggles to check them all consistently. And considering these threats are commonly stacked together they will wear Gyarados down in tandem until one or the other breaks through it. It's a solid A.
Now this little stinker is very overrated. I actually want to make a "Don't use that, use this" post in the STABmons thread about Quagsire v. Gyarados. Quagsire has no offensive presence against the things its supposed to be checking, forcing it to rely on weak-ass Scalds/Toxic to wear things down. It's pretty much obliged to carry Protect to ensure it can't be 2HKO'd on the switch because 95/85 bulk is not that impressive. That means it runs something like Scald or Toxic/Earthquake/Protect/Recover (or Spikes for those goofballs that overload their Unaware walls with too much utility). For example without Scald it fails to handle Mega Scizor and without Toxic it fails to check Mega Charizard X; whereas Gyarados threatens both with Twave and either of its STAB moves. It loses versus most things with Substitute, especially Kyurem-Black (so does Gyarados tbf.) In a world of Dragon Ascents and Close Combats Unaware is a double-edge sword because Quagsire ignores their defensive drops when attacking. It's a momentum suck, plain and simple. B+ or B is good.
Should stay S. "Rhythms'" (aka Bacon's) post says it all. I don't like Explosion, though. Why throw away one of the best mons in the game with an unboosted attack that has an immunity and is resisted by a very common type? What Steel-types are switching into Landorus-T you ask? Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory (if people are still running that.)
A+ still imo. It's good but predictable as hell. At least PZ has the option to go mixed/Plate/Agility.
A+ please. See above. Mixed Adaptability is stupidly effective. I hate Porygon-Z.
I still don't understand why Clefable is A rank. I've played hundreds of STABmons games and ran into it maybe twice. It gains a whopping 0 new moves. Steel types are on every team. Most pokemon that failed to 2hko it before now easily do so. It is outclassed in a utility role. And no one uses it.
Going through the pokemon that are A- and above, Unaware Clefable beats: M-Lopunny, M-Slowbro, Garchomp, (M)-Sableye, TTar, M-Gyarados, Weavile, and maybe PGon2.
It gets 2HKO'd or walled + statused by: KyuB, Lando, M-Scizor, Thundy, Zard-Y, Heatran, Hoopa, Keldeo, PGonZ, Terrakion, Tornadus, Azumarill, Zard-X, M-Diancie, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Gyarados, Klefki, Latios, Manaphy, Magnezone, Rotom-H, Scizor, Serperior, Aerodactyl, M-Blastoise, Chansey, Excadrill, Meloetta, Rotom-W, Thundy-T, and Ursaring.
As a utility pokemon it's outclassed by Klefki so hard. There's not a comparison to be made.
I have never seen an argument for why this is better than B except, "someone used it a while ago and the team was sick".
Going through the pokemon that are A- and above, Unaware Clefable beats: M-Lopunny, M-Slowbro, Garchomp, (M)-Sableye, TTar, M-Gyarados, Weavile, and maybe PGon2.
It gets 2HKO'd or walled + statused by: KyuB, Lando, M-Scizor, Thundy, Zard-Y, Heatran, Hoopa, Keldeo, PGonZ, Terrakion, Tornadus, Azumarill, Zard-X, M-Diancie, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Gyarados, Klefki, Latios, Manaphy, Magnezone, Rotom-H, Scizor, Serperior, Aerodactyl, M-Blastoise, Chansey, Excadrill, Meloetta, Rotom-W, Thundy-T, and Ursaring.
As a utility pokemon it's outclassed by Klefki so hard. There's not a comparison to be made.
I have never seen an argument for why this is better than B except, "someone used it a while ago and the team was sick".
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I didn't mention MG + CM because it's even worse than Unaware. The only pokemon that run Toxic more than 20% of the time are Forretress, Shedinja, and Quagsire, so I don't really understand why MG is a reasonable ability to chose. The only advantage is it lets you run Soft-Boiled, but Wish-Protect isn't THAT bad when it lets you actually beat SD Lopunny, DD Garchomp, and CM Slowbro.
STABmons is a totally different environment that OU. In OU, MG Clef narrowly avoids every 2hko ever, has an incredible ability, great typing, and good utility. In STAB, it gets narrowly 2hko'd by almost every single pokemon, has a useless ability, pretty bad typing, and is directly outclassed in its utility. The list of pokemon that it walls in OU that can straight up break it in STAB is pretty big: KyuB, Lando, Thundy, Scarf Keldeo, Scarf PGonZ, Terrakion, Azumarill, M-Diancie, DD Garchomp, Latios, Serperior, Aerodactyl, M-Blastoise, and Meloetta.
If you want a defensive setup pokemon, why wouldn't you use M-Slowbro? It's not like your MG Clefable is actually going to beat NP Thundy anyways (+1 vs +2 it takes 55% min from OWing). And MSlow can beat the rest of the S rank mons and a ton of the A ranks to boot.
STABmons is a totally different environment that OU. In OU, MG Clef narrowly avoids every 2hko ever, has an incredible ability, great typing, and good utility. In STAB, it gets narrowly 2hko'd by almost every single pokemon, has a useless ability, pretty bad typing, and is directly outclassed in its utility. The list of pokemon that it walls in OU that can straight up break it in STAB is pretty big: KyuB, Lando, Thundy, Scarf Keldeo, Scarf PGonZ, Terrakion, Azumarill, M-Diancie, DD Garchomp, Latios, Serperior, Aerodactyl, M-Blastoise, and Meloetta.
If you want a defensive setup pokemon, why wouldn't you use M-Slowbro? It's not like your MG Clefable is actually going to beat NP Thundy anyways (+1 vs +2 it takes 55% min from OWing). And MSlow can beat the rest of the S rank mons and a ton of the A ranks to boot.
Magic Guard does more than defend against Toxic - immunity to all hazard damage and potential Scald burns is really nice, making it better than Unaware who gets worn down easily by hazards.
MG Clef can still avoid a ton of 2HKOs in STABies - things like Thundurus-I haven't gotten a power boost unless they start running Aeroblast / Hurricane randomly which is unlikely. Also some of the things that you listed are incorrect - Thundy cannot break Clef unless it gets lucky with Parahax or is running NP which is definitely not the only or even the best set (imho its 3 attacks + twave), it has a better match-up with DD Chomp than it does against SD Chomp, Keldeo can only really break through it early game due to how Water Spout works, Azu's Play Rough does more than Water Shurriken and Crabhammer isn't as common outside of Band which it loses to in OU anyways, certain Lando-T sets (defensive) still lose, and M-Diancie doesn't win anymore than it normally does unless you run Head Smash. Meanwhile you still have a great match-up against mons like AV Torn-T, Raikou, and Slowbro.
I don't understand how its typing and ability become "bad" - Sure, Steel-types are a bit more common than they are in OU (and I say a bit since the common Steel-type of STABmons are also very common in OU), but Fairy is still an excellent and border-line broken type, giving you great offensive and defensive prowess, and Magic Guard is still a great ability if only for the hazard immunity.
I wouldn't use M-Slowbro over Clefable because I might want to run another Mega alongside Clef, such as M-Scizor or M-Lop - maybe even M-Venusaur if I'm feeling frisky. Alternatively, I don't want to stack weaknesses / resistances on my team, since M-Slowbro is almost always ran in balanced team where this stuff is really important. This is not to say that M-Bro isn't amazing - it is a great mon - but it does not directly outclass Clefable at all.
Against I can see Clef dropping to A- or maybe even B+ if people really don't like Clef being that high, but B is too low imho.
MG Clef can still avoid a ton of 2HKOs in STABies - things like Thundurus-I haven't gotten a power boost unless they start running Aeroblast / Hurricane randomly which is unlikely. Also some of the things that you listed are incorrect - Thundy cannot break Clef unless it gets lucky with Parahax or is running NP which is definitely not the only or even the best set (imho its 3 attacks + twave), it has a better match-up with DD Chomp than it does against SD Chomp, Keldeo can only really break through it early game due to how Water Spout works, Azu's Play Rough does more than Water Shurriken and Crabhammer isn't as common outside of Band which it loses to in OU anyways, certain Lando-T sets (defensive) still lose, and M-Diancie doesn't win anymore than it normally does unless you run Head Smash. Meanwhile you still have a great match-up against mons like AV Torn-T, Raikou, and Slowbro.
I don't understand how its typing and ability become "bad" - Sure, Steel-types are a bit more common than they are in OU (and I say a bit since the common Steel-type of STABmons are also very common in OU), but Fairy is still an excellent and border-line broken type, giving you great offensive and defensive prowess, and Magic Guard is still a great ability if only for the hazard immunity.
I wouldn't use M-Slowbro over Clefable because I might want to run another Mega alongside Clef, such as M-Scizor or M-Lop - maybe even M-Venusaur if I'm feeling frisky. Alternatively, I don't want to stack weaknesses / resistances on my team, since M-Slowbro is almost always ran in balanced team where this stuff is really important. This is not to say that M-Bro isn't amazing - it is a great mon - but it does not directly outclass Clefable at all.
Against I can see Clef dropping to A- or maybe even B+ if people really don't like Clef being that high, but B is too low imho.
Uhh, not to be rude, but have you played STABmons? I looked back through the last 10 months of usage and couldn't find a month where NP was under 50% or out of the top 4 moves on Thundy. What 3rd attack do you even run? Superpower? Dragon Ascent? Those don't hit anything. The mixed wallbreaker set is real, but is largely outclassed by the NP set because it already breaks every wall. Also Steels are WAY more common in STABmons that in OU. If you go through and add up the percent usage of steel types in the top 50 in STAB and OU you come out with 128 to 74. That's 1.7x as many steels.
It seems like we agree on almost everything in your second paragraph: DD Chomp breaks Clef, so does SD Chomp, so does Keldeo, so does Azumarill, so does offensive Lando, so does Head Smash Diancie. I don't really understand the argument you're making here.
At the end of the day, Clefable simply does not have the stats to function as a defensive win-con in the STABmons metagame. I don't really see how this is disputable. The support it needs to win is generally: remove 4 of the opposing team because 32/42 of the pokemon currently ranked A- or above can stop it from sweeping. This is not the same as "Pokemon that are extremely potent in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame and have minor flaws that can be mitigated with the right support, if any", and is much more in line with, "These Pokemon can sweep or wall some portions of the metagame but might have flaws that require more support. They can perform very well in one role, but may struggle in multiple capacities. They still have more positive traits than negative".
It seems like we agree on almost everything in your second paragraph: DD Chomp breaks Clef, so does SD Chomp, so does Keldeo, so does Azumarill, so does offensive Lando, so does Head Smash Diancie. I don't really understand the argument you're making here.
At the end of the day, Clefable simply does not have the stats to function as a defensive win-con in the STABmons metagame. I don't really see how this is disputable. The support it needs to win is generally: remove 4 of the opposing team because 32/42 of the pokemon currently ranked A- or above can stop it from sweeping. This is not the same as "Pokemon that are extremely potent in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame and have minor flaws that can be mitigated with the right support, if any", and is much more in line with, "These Pokemon can sweep or wall some portions of the metagame but might have flaws that require more support. They can perform very well in one role, but may struggle in multiple capacities. They still have more positive traits than negative".
I've played a lot of STABmons - ever since it was Gen 5. I didn't say it wasn't the most common set - its just that, imho, it's not the best set. I personally like Tbolt / Fblast or HP [Ice] / Owing / Thunder Wave to generally be better. The main point was that Thundy doesn't always have NP, so it doesn't beat it 100% of the time.
What I was getting at is that a lot of what you posted basically has similar, if not the same, match-ups as it does in OU so bringing up those specific examples is kind of moot. Also, those mons only do it under certain circumstances (Keldeo needs to be at an HP where Water Spout isn't stronger than Origin Pulse, Azu needs to be banded or at +6, Chomp needs SD, ect). Meanwhile it has a good amount of good match-ups against good mons, such as (listing from S to A-): Defensive Lando-T, non-NP/Taunt Thundy, Scarf Keldeo mid-game (or even max health Keldeo if both of them are in against each other - a single Moonblast makes Water Spout not a 2HKO), Tornadus-T, non-Head Smash M-Diance, non-DD/SD Garchomp, M-Sable (and normal Sableye), basically all forms of Rotom (even Rotom-Heat since it can't do anything to Clef), bulky TTar, and non-SD Weavile. Keep in mind that a lot of the set-up mons don't want to set-up on Clefable, as they either take a Thunder Wave or take loads of damage. This is also not accounting for dank Flamethrower predictions.
Clefable is good enough to work as a win-con on balanced teams. Of course certain things beat it, but that doesn't mean that it's not effective at what it does - which it definitely is. "32/42" is absolutely not correct - even if it were correct, you're making it sound like 32 out of 42 counter clef which is absolutely not true. In fact, the only counters I see are Scizor, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Klefki, and Excadrill - and those don't appreciate taking a Flamethrower or a Thunder Wave. Clef does not require you to remove 4 of the opposing team.
I'm aware that STABmons =/= OU - that's why I'm not arguing for S-Rank because it's clearly not. The lowest Clef deserves to be is A-/B+ imho.
arcanine should be ranked somewhere! i'm thinking b or b-?
what do you guys think of mega scizor's placement? drop to a+? it's still incredibly threatening. i'm curious!
i'm thinking hoopa-u is borderline s as well. it's just so stinking good lol. it sucks v fakespeed but literally i mindlessly spams moves and 2hkoes most resists lol... maybe not, but i'll bring this up for discussion! i'm thinking a+ at the moment, but just some thought makes me consider s in the back of myb mind. discuss!
what do you guys think of mega scizor's placement? drop to a+? it's still incredibly threatening. i'm curious!
i'm thinking hoopa-u is borderline s as well. it's just so stinking good lol. it sucks v fakespeed but literally i mindlessly spams moves and 2hkoes most resists lol... maybe not, but i'll bring this up for discussion! i'm thinking a+ at the moment, but just some thought makes me consider s in the back of myb mind. discuss!
No it shouldn't
Bisharp wasn't the best even when it did have access to shift gear, and now it's ultimately not as good unless you run the standard OU set and have a Pokemon to baton pass speed into it
If anything it should be C
I'll reply to the other stuff later
Bisharp wasn't the best even when it did have access to shift gear, and now it's ultimately not as good unless you run the standard OU set and have a Pokemon to baton pass speed into it
If anything it should be C
I'll reply to the other stuff later
it should absolutely not be c lol...
bisharp is still insanely strong. it resists fakespeed, it punishes defensive lando-t, parting shot, and defog and just having it puts pressure on the opponent since they know they have to be more cautious with the above stuff otherwise bisharp threatens to punch holes in teams. you cannot honestly tell me bisharp is as bad as mega sharpedo. it's not that niche, and it's certainly not as niche as things like rhyperior and mega pinsir. and krookodile is above it, and krookodile is where it's supposed to be. bisharp is arguably better, and should be ranked as such. i've never heard of bisharp + baton pass and i can't imagine that would be any good... yeah, i don't see this as a valid anti-argument. maybe b rank, but it's not dropping and it's certainly not b-.
nah bish can go up. people run all this weird parting shot stuff but standard swords dance-boosted sucker punches just roll over so many teams. the mindgames are annoying, but they're as dangerous for the opponent as they are for the bisharp user
especially extreme speed / sucker punch 50/50s those are just plain gross
love hoopa-u so much and specially-oriented sets in particular are absolutely insane but right now i can't see it being s. priority is common as usual, mega scizor has to run bullet punch now and lopunny is absolutely dominant
scizor should probably drop now :( it's got all these new fast fire-types to worry about. bulky sd is probably the best at the moment because it honestly takes on lopunny fairly well
i find arcanine kinda bad but sacred fire is great i guess. entei is about as good too, they share a slightly different set of advantages but i find edgequake coverage really nice alongside sacred fire. intimidate is pretty interesting for arcanine, it probably fits around b-
the rankings seem kinda short at the moment, is there never going to be a d-rank? we generally have enough pokemon for it
I should really be using capital letters but too late for that now
especially extreme speed / sucker punch 50/50s those are just plain gross
love hoopa-u so much and specially-oriented sets in particular are absolutely insane but right now i can't see it being s. priority is common as usual, mega scizor has to run bullet punch now and lopunny is absolutely dominant
scizor should probably drop now :( it's got all these new fast fire-types to worry about. bulky sd is probably the best at the moment because it honestly takes on lopunny fairly well
i find arcanine kinda bad but sacred fire is great i guess. entei is about as good too, they share a slightly different set of advantages but i find edgequake coverage really nice alongside sacred fire. intimidate is pretty interesting for arcanine, it probably fits around b-
the rankings seem kinda short at the moment, is there never going to be a d-rank? we generally have enough pokemon for it
I should really be using capital letters but too late for that now
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Since when did this become a thread where your opinion had more priority over others? I never said I'd seen BP + Bisharp, it was simply an example. Also, all of the things you listed apply to Mega Scizor too, bar Defiant punishment, but it's not moving up to S++ (if that existed), is it? I never said it was less viable than Mega Sharpedo or Krookodile, so I don't know why you brought them up. Not to mention that almost every FakeSpeeder carries Fighting or Fire coverage (Stoutland had Superpower, p-z has fire or fighting Judgment, Ursaring has w/e, and Mega Lopunny can run hjk) so even if it does resist FakeSpeed, every viable fakespeeder has coverage for it. It definitely should not be B+, nor anything higher. It should remain where it is or move down.
E: posted too soon, wait a bit pls
there is no reason to be hostile. obviously this thread is not "my opinion and no one else," otherwise the rankings would look exactly how i want them to, and they don't. bp+bisharp isn't an example because it's not used. you can justify bp+rampardos to make something "viable" and it's not working. i bring up the comparisons to the other pokemon because they're in the rankings around bisharp.....
please see bacon's post. if there's enough support from him, then i'm going to move it up in 24 hours unless i see a valid objection.
...I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm just replying angrily because you're ignoring my objections. And yes, BP+Bisharp IS an example because an example doesn't necessarily need to be used. I also don't see how my objections aren't valid, but it's whatever.
i addressed your points rhythms. there's no need to continue this argument anyways, it's just making this thread more clogged up. it's not productive.
Ok so going back on topic, here are some of my opinions for S-Rank:
S to A+/A: So after Shift Gear was banned it obviously took away Mega Scizor's best set and amazing offensive capabilities to an extent. But, I have been trying Swords Dance sets with Gear Grind and they have been putting a lot of work against more bulky offense and balanced teams. It's amazing typing and stats let it be able to set up on a majority of the metas top threats such as Kyreum-B and Latios pretty effectively. It did lose some viability, but its still an amazing mon nonetheless. While were at it we could also drop regulare Scizor to maybe A- or B+.
A+ to S: Hoopa-U is honestly the most scariest mon in the entire meta (even more than Kyreum-B imo), the diversity between its sets in addition to the constant pressure it can apply to your opponent with Sucker Punch 50/50s and momentum with Parting Shot truly makes it stand out. Yes it has low defenses and average speed, but STABmons does remedy this a bit by giving it priority and a way to pivot around safetly. This monster should definitely rise. Fakespeed kinda died down after Lovely Kiss and Belly Drum were banned anyways.
A+ to S: This thing is just a spiraling snowball of insanity. Once it sets up a couple of Cosmic Power/Calm Mind its really hard to stop. Its typing also lets it deal with common offensive types such as Fire, Fighting, and Ice. Thew only downside is that it has an average Sp.Def whicvh makes it sometimes hard to setup on things such as Thundurus and Serperior. Want others opinion though.
well, i don't think we should drop scizor much since its main tool even before ban remains unchanged: choice banded gear grind.
anyways, i pushed hoopa-u to s; put mega scizor down to a+; arcanine to b; bisharp rises to b. b+ maybe in the future, but we'll see.
i'm not sure myself on mega slowbro. admittedly, i haven't used it. i'll build a team w/ it and come back o_o.
anyways, i pushed hoopa-u to s; put mega scizor down to a+; arcanine to b; bisharp rises to b. b+ maybe in the future, but we'll see.
i'm not sure myself on mega slowbro. admittedly, i haven't used it. i'll build a team w/ it and come back o_o.
I have a Mega Slowbro team, and it is insanely good, but not quite S rank imo. It struggles with some common things such as Thundurus, Serp, Mixed Kyurem B with Freeze dry, Special Hoopa, Zard Y, Porygon Z, Sylveon, Gengar, Meloetta, and the Rotoms, all of who are A- rank or above in STABmons. These all OHKO if Mega bro hasn't set up a CM/cosmic power boost, and they all 2HKO if it has. This imo makes Mega Slowbro fit the definition of A rank as provided in the OP.
To be truly amazing, Mega Slowbro needs support from a SpD wall such as Chansey, Heatran, or Meoletta or something else to take out the strong special attackers. I personally find Heatran to be an amazing teammate for it, as it can take out many of the SpA attackers above. Mega Slowbro is amazing, but it falls just shy of being S rank IMO.
To be truly amazing, Mega Slowbro needs support from a SpD wall such as Chansey, Heatran, or Meoletta or something else to take out the strong special attackers. I personally find Heatran to be an amazing teammate for it, as it can take out many of the SpA attackers above. Mega Slowbro is amazing, but it falls just shy of being S rank IMO.
After beta and I used Megabro extensively on our rmt, I really felt it was not quite S rank material. It's very, very threatening and incredibly good for offensive teams, but lacks the real metagame influence needed to qualify for S-rank - most teams don't have to run a dedicated check since enough mons naturally check it anyways.
Heavily disagree with Hoopa-U in S rank. Hoopa-U was a mon I ran into very commonly on the ladder, and every time, it really wasn't that threatening. Scarf Hoopa-U appears to be very dangerous to our team, but in reality, it ended up being handled somewhat easily. Non-scarf variants aren't even that good due to the lack of bulky teams in the metagame, and most offensive teams can easily beat it before it even attacks. Scarfed variants are so easily revenge killed I have a hard time grouping it in S-rank as a mon that "defines the metagame". It simply doesn't define the current metagame as a scarfer and doesn't fit at all with Kyube, Landorus, and Thundurus. While it hits hard, it's certainly not game breaking and won't sweep teams. It also lacks the ability to check a lot of threatening sweepers in the metagame, mostly due to being outsped (Megazard x, Chomp, Gyara), losing to priority (Lopunny, T-tar), or being crippled in the process of attempting to check (Thundurus, which almost always runs twave over taunt nowadays).
So basically, as a scarfer, it doesn't have the ability to revenge kill many sweepers, loses to common priority, is somewhat easily checked, and misses out on many important KOs with neutral attacks. It also HAS to be given a free switch and completely surrenders defensive synergy in a lot of situations, due to the majority presence of physical attackers and its lack of bulk. I don't see it as an S-rank threat, and in fact, my ladder experience made me think it's not A+ worthy either, because I CERTAINLY don't think it's nearly as threatening as Keldeo, Lopunny-Mega, Heatran, and Porygon-Z.
Now can we please stop with the psuedo-shitposts on this thread? I've seen way too many poorly explained, incomplete arguments for any decisions to have been made recently, and almost everybody on this thread is participating.
Heavily disagree with Hoopa-U in S rank. Hoopa-U was a mon I ran into very commonly on the ladder, and every time, it really wasn't that threatening. Scarf Hoopa-U appears to be very dangerous to our team, but in reality, it ended up being handled somewhat easily. Non-scarf variants aren't even that good due to the lack of bulky teams in the metagame, and most offensive teams can easily beat it before it even attacks. Scarfed variants are so easily revenge killed I have a hard time grouping it in S-rank as a mon that "defines the metagame". It simply doesn't define the current metagame as a scarfer and doesn't fit at all with Kyube, Landorus, and Thundurus. While it hits hard, it's certainly not game breaking and won't sweep teams. It also lacks the ability to check a lot of threatening sweepers in the metagame, mostly due to being outsped (Megazard x, Chomp, Gyara), losing to priority (Lopunny, T-tar), or being crippled in the process of attempting to check (Thundurus, which almost always runs twave over taunt nowadays).
So basically, as a scarfer, it doesn't have the ability to revenge kill many sweepers, loses to common priority, is somewhat easily checked, and misses out on many important KOs with neutral attacks. It also HAS to be given a free switch and completely surrenders defensive synergy in a lot of situations, due to the majority presence of physical attackers and its lack of bulk. I don't see it as an S-rank threat, and in fact, my ladder experience made me think it's not A+ worthy either, because I CERTAINLY don't think it's nearly as threatening as Keldeo, Lopunny-Mega, Heatran, and Porygon-Z.
Now can we please stop with the psuedo-shitposts on this thread? I've seen way too many poorly explained, incomplete arguments for any decisions to have been made recently, and almost everybody on this thread is participating.