np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned

[Adamant Zoroark]

Punchshroom

As far as I'm concerned, the biggest thing about the Pursuit argument with Hoopa-U is that it's now mandatory to run Pursuit on everything but heavy offense. By the very nature of the Choice Specs set alone having no counters, unless your team is so fast and offensive that Hoopa-U can barely do anything, you pretty much auto-lose to Hoopa-U unless you have Pursuit. I don't honestly think I can name a single other Pursuit-bait Pokemon that you auto-lose to without Pursuit. Even Pokemon like Hydreigon and Kyurem-B still have switch-ins depending on what moves they run (even if they, strictly speaking, have no counters overall) so you can scout for what they have and act accordingly; hell, Greninja couldn't claim to dismantle everything defensive with four or fewer moves and even that was considered to put enough pressure on balance to warrant a ban (but to be fair, its higher Speed, which Hydreigon and Kyurem-B lack, is what put it over the edge).

Also, I'd like to point out that 5/8 of the stronq wallbreakers you mentioned are Mega Evolutions and the other three have actual counters. By the very nature of Mega Evolution, there is an inherent opportunity cost to running those Pokemon, and, furthermore, they are restricted from running any kind of power-boosting item like Life Orb or Choice Specs. There is virtually no opportunity cost to running Hoopa-U on your team, and I can't honestly see "lack of defensive synergy" being one seeing as it has exceptional Special bulk for an offensively-oriented Pokemon. Think of it this way: Imagine if there were a Pokemon with comparable Special Attack to Mega Gardevoir, comparable Special Defense to Mega Gardevoir, more base HP than Mega Gardevoir, only marginally weaker Attack-wise than Kyurem-B, and wasn't a Mega Evolution and therefore allowed you to run another Mega and hold a power-boosting item like Life Orb or Choice Specs? Actually, you don't need to imagine it because it exists already. It's called Hoopa-U.

Furthermore, about the whole "it's not so good against offense" argument (even though there are offense threats like Alakazam that Hoopa-U comes in on pretty easily due to the aforementioned Special bulk, unless you wanna start running Signal Beam Alakazam or something): Landorus-I wasn't exactly sweeping offense either.

 

[stardust93]

I'm gonna preface this by saying... Ban Hoopa

Pro-ban or anti-ban, we should all agree on one fact: Hoopa has no safe switchins. Let's take the recently most common specs set for example. Everything that's faster is either ohko'd or takes at least ~80%, while anything slower is 2hko'd or sometimes ohko'd. Hoopa can also run mixed LO, CB, ebelt, and so many different movesets that makes coming into it a pure guessing game. Even the "safe counters" like Hoopa and Klefki (not very good anyways) cannot come into sets like LO fire punch or specs.

Now I'd like to refute some of the common anti-ban arguments.

- "So what if Hoopa has no 100% switchins, the same can be said for Kyu-B and Manaphy": As bludz stated, what makes Hoopa different is that it has such a large array of options that switching into it sometimes is a pure guessing game. With something like Manaphy you could switch into Lati, Venusaur, Chansey, or Ferro rather safely, and even if it has the right moveset, you at least know what counters it. For Kyurem, theres Clefable, Scizor, Chansey, Ferro, Tyranitar, and more. For Hoopa though, all of the different item and moveset combinations that it can viably run makes it impossible to know what walls, if anything at all. Another thing that really makes Hoopa overpowering is the ability to often just click the appropriate dark STAB. Even vs resists, specs dark pulse or band hyperspace is difficult to switch into. Even Keldeo, a typically sturdy mon, hardly comes into STAB.
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 156-183 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

- "Hoopa is deadweight vs offense": If offense never runs Alakazam, Manectric, Latios, Thundurus, and all those other pokemon that Hoopa 1v1s, then yea! Let's not forget the fact that Hoopa is often paired with voltturn mons like Rotom that allow free switchins vs many things that Hoopa can take advantage of. Please also bear in mind that choice scarf is a viable set on Hoopa, while offense has a super tough time switching into that. Scarf isn't even a terrible item vs balance teams, because trick and coverage moves can definitely handle some walls, with the added bonus of really messing up offense while also reliably switching into and beating pokemon like Alakazam. Here is a replay of an SPL game of mine, showcasing the threat Hoopa can be vs offense teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519

- "Hoopa is easily beaten by pursuit, a very common move": Unlike Latios and other psychic types, Hoopa actually threatens to ohko literally all pursuit users. Tyranitar, Weavile, Metagross, and any other pursuit user is directly threatened by an ohko from Hoopa, so switching right in is not a safe means of dealing with Hoopa at all. Also, unlike other psychics, Hoopa isn't necessary killed by pursuit, as it can easily live a mispredicting Tyranitar pursuit or even a pursuit on the switch if at full. If the pursuiter mispredicts, then Hoopa can threaten to ohko back with a given coverage move.

I really don't want to bring this last point up, because it's such a terrible argument for not banning something, but I feel I need to persuade some people who have this fear.

- "If Hoopa goes, what will break fat teams/stall?": Generally, if there is an issue after a ban occurs, we can all act accordingly with future suspects. This isn't even relevant here though, because fat teams will not be an issue with Hoopa gone. We still have Gardevoir, Hoopa, Zards, Torn, and so many other viable wallbreakers that it is still hard to easily get away with bulkier teams. I can assure you that people won't be freely spamming stall or semi-stall in a Hoopa-less metagame, as we saw from the tier trends before it was released.

Please, if you value the health and development of the ORAS OU metagame, vote ban.

If you are not running taunt on torn t gard or on gengar there's no way you are beating stall. Which means mons like chansey will still wall you and you can always switch out chansey to another pokemon to take the knock off from torn example spe Def mega Sableye. They you are left with relying on hurricane confusion to beat it. Zard x can be stopped by unaware mons. And zard y is completely stopped by chansey. I'm not saying not to ban Hoopa cuz "omg what are we gonna do against stall". But not everyone here uses mons like torn t as a stall breaker when there is something like a Hoopa that can do a better job.

 

[Aquarium1]

gardevoir, gengar, tornt, and wisp talon do not face you to run a trapper... garde is countered by 90% of the steel types on balance, gengar is beaten by glisc and mandi, tornt is beaten by like every elec+spdef rachi, and wisp flame is beaten by tran and rock types, so these other mons dont really necessitate pursuit trapping like hoopa does. I can name a counter to any mon in OU bar hoopa, so I don't really get that point either.

Yeah because skarmory and jirachi definitely enjoy switching into a wil-o-wisp and scizor enjoys hp fire. Gengar can run hex or icy wind to beat gliscor and mandibuzz isn't nearly common enough to be mention. It also has a 50% chance to die to life orb blast focus after rocks so it isn't reliable. You do know burn cuts a pokemon attack in half basically making t-tar or whatever rock type your using useless and talonflame can run taunt for heatran. Either way the point I'm trying making is that there are plenty of other pokemon in the meta right now that are near impossible to safely switch into if there running the appropriate coverage move but I wouldn't say there broken. It's the same for hoopa. Really hard to switch into but has flaws that keep it balanced.

 

[Jaeck]

"hi, I'm the average oras ou player and because of hoopa-u I can't always switch to the counter, Smogon plz do something".

imo voting for the ban means that people want to play gsc with mega-Pokémon. sure, Hoopa-U is a dangerous threat thanks to huge firepower and coverage; but its speed is ridiculous and what about typing and physical defence? hoopa-u could be a good Pokémon only in a shitty metagame like oras, where 200 speed means fast! Moreover, suspecting every single threat that breaks balanced team is ridiculous, people (I think....I hope...) don't want to play only balance and stall teams! Banning one of the best stall and balance breaker will make oras ou more and more unpleasant.

 

[xray]

Not gonna post much because i am on my phone and people like CBB can do it better anyways and have the same opinion.
I think the problem with Hoopa-U is that its ability to run different sets which have different "checks" make it really hard to handle and almost impossible to switch in.
Especially since people have recognized the Specs Set it is a huge thread and incredibly metagame influencing.
And the problem is that most of the checks to the popular sets get blown back by different other sets.
Also i think Hoopa-U does not only have the ability to fuck up one playstyle.
Specs/Band just takes one mon from offense and Choice Scarf is incredibly effective vs Offense in general.
I think the effectiveness of each Hoopa-Set just depends on the metagame.
The crowd might run the popular sets but good players will always adapt to the meta and that will give us a meta incredibly influenced by the popular Hoopa-Sets.
People atm run Choice Specs/(Band). This forces many players to use Pursuittrappers to handle them. IMO many players would think about E-Belt because of that.
It easily drainpunches TTarn whenkt goes for Pursuit and kills it.
And at the time Hoopa uses E-Belt Sets, TTar will be forced to crunch/whatever. This would make Specs/Band more effective again etc.


My problem with Hoopa-U is that it is incredibly metagame influencing. I do not think it is overpowered but a bit too strong with its different sets, the OU Tier cant handle that. Banning it would make the ORAS OU metagame more balanced. I clearly dont think it would make stall too good because of the STag Ban.

 

[pj]

so ok tot it was april fool but ok
hoopa-u it a mon more like landorus but wit less speed and bulk also tis mon shud predict inorder to get a kill wch is more like 50-50 situation and you need to have correct move set in order to pressure your opp. Even tho people say that in stall not exacty in balance cuz in most of the balance we can see a pursuit trapper which tend to run scarf like ttar,bisharp etc which pressures the hoopa-u to get as many kill before it revenges and not like it don't even have any check there is mandibuzz wch is very much viable in OU. It struggles vs priority as can get okho after sd in most of cases and there are fast mons like torn,scarf rache,scarf lando wch are seen normal in ou tier as it loses momenetum vs this type of mon as it can freely U-turn. Also in paper u can say it can 6-0 stall but on reality it can be easy worn turn by toxic or LO vs stall and it needs right moveset and item in order to be effective more or less it can make a hole in a team wch can be done by many other mons do also I belive if a player doesn't carry counter or check of a mon they shud be punished wch can be seen in many matchs where people lose cuz of team building error. About item if it has spec vs a ho team it cant be that painfull or scarf vs stall etc like that it need to have a correct item also its bit exaggeration to say hoopa-u 6-0 stall cuz it most of case it can ezly worn down also vs balnce it maybe affective but not broken I wud say cuz it can be ezly trapped or killed after the defence drop and it takes million damage by spikes or steath rock vs ho it cant come in for free it shud come in after sacking a mon or playing smart wit U-turn etc and can ezly get koed by any scarf mon such as exca lando etc, also prior hoopa-u meta and current meta I havnt seen a lots of change.

becuz of this reason I wud like it to not banned

 

[Niadev]

tbh I don't know what we were expecting, letting a 680 BST with decent coverage on both ends into the tier, even with the poor defensive synergy and speed it has. But hey, 1st suspect where I actually know what we're dealing with :D (I was around in Round 5, but I'd never faced GothSable at the time so I didn't know what made it so borked).

My thoughts:

I'm honestly undecided on this thing. HO makes it really difficult to do it's job sometimes, and it can still be statused and taken on by stall, especially if it's locked into something that the stall team has a resist for. Life Orb can be problematic if it's not choiced in anyway for stall, but it typically doesn't run a move to beat Mandibuzz on those sets, Pursuit is common on most teams nowadays. It's also much less of a centralising force than Mega Sableye imo, because that thing forced you to run specific Pokemon to beat it (and honestly still does), not accounting for Goth.

I have to say though, I cannot think of a single other Pokemon that's a case of "what's ur sac bro" from the get go. The closest that comes to it is a +1 Zard X, but even that has set specific switchins - Quag switches in on any set bar Adamant Outrage, though it can't do too much back to a Wisp Zard - and it's not from the get go like Hoopa is. But Hoopa is not the only Pokemon without a single true counter among all it's potential sets, with the other being Xard. It's also not bad vs offense either, as it can tend to use any special attacker not running bug coverage or is a STAB fairy into cannon fodder.

However, with the prevalence of U-turners like Lando-T, Torn-T, and Scizor among others, it struggles vs many offensive teams. Pursuit can make short work of Hoopa if rocks are up, and it's defensive synergy is nonexistent.

So instead of all that, I'll just use the Tiering Policy:

Uncompetitive: Hoopa doesn't immediately introduce elements that reduce player interaction like Aegislash did and it's King's Shield 50/50s. The closest it comes to being uncompetitive is guessing which set it's running and realising if you mess up, something important died.
Broken: Hoopa isn't so good it's something that mandates being used like Aegi, MKanga, Greninja or so on. However, it's much better at it's job than most of the tier's dominant wallbreakers, meaning it's pretty darned good in comparison to the rest of the tier. I feel Hoopa, as a result, may be too good for the tier.
Unhealthy: I honestly feel this might be where Hoopa lies. It makes stall and balance pretty hard to pull off successfully, what with Hoopa being in 15% of Smogon Tour matches (the ladder usage stats haven't updated yet, but if the tour usage is anything to go by, it's likely it'll see at least 10% usage). But stall can die in a fire while dying in a fire seriously don't ban Hoopa I want my sanity please I don't care what you have to do make stall unviable please I'm begging you I'd probably take torture over playing vs stall. It's neither particularly broken nor uncompetitive, but leaves the metagame in a somewhat undesirable state, as not all playstyles are as viable as would be desired in a meta where all playsytles are viable (if that makes any sense lol).

I'm still somewhat undecided on whether or not it should be banned, so posts in this thread may change my mind. Now then, time to rebuild my past 4 teams that used Hoopa-U and fail at laddering, and attempt to take part in a suspect tour and hopefully get reqs that way. But there's one thing I know for sure - Hoopa-U's a pretty cool looking Pokemon (imo) and it'll probably be horrible in Primal Groudon: The Tier Ubers. And of course this'd come not long after I submitted a Hoopa team to an OM.

 

[AM]

Re: Everyone who keeps saying stall or fat teams will be overpowered if Hoopa-U gets the boot.

This was only the case arguably cause of Shadow Tag when you stop complaining and crying about M-Sableye. I know there's a circle of people who like to seriously entertain that M-Sableye is the end of the world when relying on their M-Gross offenses 6-0d by it but it really isn't and keeping Hoopa-U for the reasons to have enough viable breakers for stall is hypocritical when there are plenty available either through coverage options or mons like M-Gardevoir themselves. The notion of bulky teams ruining the meta is weird when the meta took a more bulky offensive direction from the hard offense and stall that occupied the meta some months ago and after the various suspect tests I would like to say relatively for the better (subjective but we havent heard huge outcry except for Hoopa). The "don't let the meta become bulky fat shit" and "we cater too much to stall" mentality is just flimsy when the meta has stabilized to a point of bulky offense (could go into detail the problems with actual stall these days but it's been said so many times) and Hoopa-Us presence was strong enough at that point to warrant a suspect. There can be so many reasons to explain your logic of keeping it around but it most certainly should not be implying that Hoopa-U is holding defensive teams back from being overpowered.

 

[Hand Relief]

so u know i wnted to post about hoopaunbound because i herd about the suspect um on my phone so, hoopa is versatile, it hs alot of move that beat sevreal pokemons in the game,like dark pulsse, thunderbolt,focus blast etc...So. basically,it can be very scary threat.It can struggle with toxic spike,spike,stealth rock,sand damage,hail damage, hoopa takes damage from these weather ,and if you dnt prepare for it u will get beaten quick. Hoopa-Unbound form has no recovery for the magma storm heatran,....Talonflame Brave Bird,Landorus Earthquake,you know?Hoopa struggles with Hyper Offencive Playstyles because it has slow speeed and cqan be revenge kill by many fast pokemons in tier,so it can be versatility with low speed not good,Stall Playstyle has to deal wit it good or they lose becuz to many pokemon weak too it. I dnt know I play on ladder one time and iwas beated by a hOOPa. Sry about the mistake by the way english not my first language..

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

FINALLY! I don't get why this thing wasn't tested earlier. This thing is insanely powerful, enough to punch holes in even the toughest of walls, and Choice Band/Specs sets just push it over the edge. The only things close to that kind of power are Mega Heracross (who can't hold an item and has low Speed), Mega Charizard Y (who can't hold an item and needs the sun to sweep effectively), or Kyurem-Black (who has a very limited physical movepool). And not only is it very powerful, its also deceptively bulky as well (at least on the Special side). Most of you may not know this, but Hoopa-U can live a sun-boosted Fire Blast from MegaZard Y without any HP or Sp.D investment. Don't believe me? Head to the Calculator, put in Hoopa-U vs Mega Charizard Y, and see how much Fire Blast does to this thing. It's still 2HKO'd, but with that power Zard Y won't get a second hit off anyway. Not that it's the most broken thing ever: It has shitty physical bulk and meh Speed, which may be the reason it's been OU since it was released. But none of these cons can overshadow its insane power and good Special bulk, which makes it too broken for OU imo. Ban this shit.

Also, I can't believe it took this long for people to realize the power of the Specs set. Specs Hoopa was always good, and it will always be good even in Ubers. Just sayin'.

 

[GrapeFrost]

Hoopa is next level broken. It's basically greninja but stronger and without protean. Is such a malevolence to the tier, although I've never had a problem with it because I was able to predict around it, and people don't use it right in 1200s to low to mid 1300s. Despite this, this is from personally experience. Hoopa is a bit too broken for OU in my opinion. Hoops is a Pokemon I personally love using for its diversity at its ability to damage through subs, but when it has the defenses of latias, and the attack stats of mega diance, you know that's a red flag, not to mention that it still can sweep teams in ubers. So, do I think it deserves a ban? Yes.

 

[xray]

Btw guys you should know that the PS ORAS OU Ladder does not really represent the ORAS OU metagame. I ladder enough to know this.
I doubt a Hoopa-U Ban would make Stall more popular on the ladder.
Stall already is very popular on the ladder because it is the easiest way for semi-good players to win vs. "noobs" or unexperienced players.
For Smogon Tournaments i think a Hoopa-U Ban would not make Stall too good.
Just do it like me and use cool stuff like Mega Garchomp which blows Stall away. eZ

 

[Kibblecat]

The Hoopa-U Meta isn't totally unplayable, but my opinion is that I preferred without. We're in the interesting situation now of having had a meta without Hoopa-U prior to it's release, and so weighing up how close it might be after the ban and deciding if that's a healthier metagame or not.

And, that said, just because the meta before Hoopa-U may or may not have been healthier, doesn't automatically make the Hoopa-U meta an unhealthy one. Having it slightly off balance doesn't mean it's unplayable. Banning Hoopa-U or not will basically be deciding whether we need to prune the metagame to optimise it, or whether we only need to ditch the biggest problems and leave a little more in the hands of Game Freak. Despite the fact that I'm fine with the Hoopa-U meta to an extent, I'd lean towards the former and say that if we can improve the metagame we should.

TLDR - Is the Hoopa metagame really unbalanced? Not as much as it could be, it's not exactly unplayable. Would it still be better off without it? Probably yeah. I doubt I'll get reqs because of time constraints but if by some miracle I do, I'll be voting Ban.

 

[Nash.]

The main problem is that Hoopa causes bulkier teams to usually sac a pokemon in order to get their pursuit user in to revenge. Hint the word usually. Hoopa has very little safe switchins if any at all. You cannot be entirely sure if your check with for sure be able safely switchin. Pursuiting is an option but if the hoopa is running not choice sets that aren't noticeable to determine (life orb taking health) you could pursuit on a not switching out hoopa and get dropoped by an EBelt drain punch.

The speed stat is understandably a weakness, but a pokemon doesn't have to be able to be very single playstyle to become ban worthy. Hoopa still provides a huge advantage in the balance and stall matchups to the point where they are force to run a pursuit trapper to deal the pokemon. Isn't that what restrictive teambuilding is, Where you are pretty much forced to run a certain pokemon and others ways aren't that effective?

Even against the worse of matchups (Hyper offense) Hoopa has enough Special bulk to where it can come in on Latio's psyshock, Alakazams psychic/shadowball. Raikou's thunderbolt/HP ice (not sure of exact calcs so don't crucify me if I'm off a little on a calc, i figure you can get the point that I'm trying to make) So it isn't even useless it it's most disadvantaged matchup. Hell, even the AV set (while unpopular) is still a viable set for these matchups, making it able to avoid 2HKO and dish out a good hit since HO teams are usually not bulky enough to take even not damage boosting hits.

Hoopa does have use in disadavtaged matchups, and excels in matchups against bulkier teams. It has various sets that can be used to beat various of matchups, thus making it a overcentralized threat.

 

[Baharoth]

I really wonder if these suspect threads will ever change... anytime some powerful wall breaker pops up the crying starts: "meh this thing has no switch ins whatsoever, yeah it has a bunch of (crippling) flaws but hell it has no switch ins. Yeah prediction goes both ways but this thing just ohkoes everything (with the right move)". It was like this with Metagross and Lando-I and now its the same again with Hoopa.

Especially the prediction part is really fun because the proban arguments all read like Hoopa will always predict right and use the right move. Yeah Keldeo gets ohoed by Psyshock and Latios by Darkpulse and Tyranitar by Focusblast but what if your Specs/Band Hoopa faces a team with all 3 of them (not too unlikely considering they are all top tier threats)? Prediction goes both ways so statistically everytime you manage to get your Hoopa in safely, which is hard enough, (yes i know double switches but thats a prediction again you know) you have a 1/3 chance to actually kill something, its just a guessing game at this point and not a very favorable one for Hoopa. Even more so because even if you get the prediction right and Keldeo/Latios bite the dust its everything Hoopa will ever do in this game because due to its inability to switch moves its now food for Ttar. Best case is a 1on1 trade worst case you use shock on the Ttar switch and Hoopa dies in vain. And situations like this are really common, maybe not with these exact same mons but you will find dark resists and psychic/fighting resists on pretty much every decent team. The power of Specs/Band Hoopa is certainly impressive but its nothing special for OU standards, anyone ever tried slapping a Band/Specs on Kyurem B and use 4 attack moves? Its pretty much the same as with Hoopa, nothing lives to tell the tale if it predicts right. Diggersby is a similar case with 4 attack moves and a Band/Life orb. Or the good old Mega Metagross set with Grass Knot which seems to be forgotten by now. I could go on with other wall breakers but i think you get the point.

From my perspective hoopa isn't any better than most of the other wallbreakers, i honestly find it to be worse most of the time because the number of mons it has a good matchup against is pretty small even on defensive teams. All the physical oriented walls like hippo and ferro (yes ferro is ohoed by focus blast but would you take that 30% risk willingly?) aren't exactly good prey for hoopa because they can hit back really hard and in hippos case hoopa can't even okho without Grass Knot. Aside from Slowbro, Amoonguss, Rotom and maybe Heatran there isn't much on balance/stall that Hoopa can safely go up against. Kyub has a much wider range of mons it can face without any worries and unlike Hoopa it can even switch into many of them and it has the bulk and recovery to stay around for a while.

There arent many constant switch ins for it, sure, but you can always get the prediction right or have something like AV Torn/Klefi to switch in at least once and force it out. And if you play properly/dont get utterly outplayed by your opponent Hoopa won't get that many switch in opportunitys to push you into a corner. And if you play bad/get outplayed and lose like 2+ mons to this glasscannon i dare say that you deserve to lose.

So no, i don't see a good reason to ban this thing outside of the fact that it causes guessing games that usually end with a dead mon if either side guesses wrong. But thats a case with any powerful attacker so nothing new here. Having no switch ins assuming perfect predicts all the time ins is an old story and a stupid one. Its just like with Metagross, the hypetrain left the station full with people who think this thing is a monster when its really not that great if you take a closer look but i somewhat doubt Hoopa will have the same luck that Metagross had back then.

 

[WhiteQueen]

Chansey and I both hate the perpetual 50/50 mind games that Hoopa-U inflicts whenever it's in the battlefield, so I'm gonna get reqs to BAN it for both of our sanity. Pokemon should always be a game comprising of 70% "skills" and 30% luck. With Hoopa-U around, it becomes an agonizing 50/50 guessing game every time you face it.

When people cried about how overpowered Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye were not too long ago, I quickly shut them down by easily providing a list of counters/checks to show why those Pokemon were overrated. With Hoopa-U, only my Chansey and Mandibuzz can somewhat safely switch into it. That's it. Only two viable switch-ins. Ban it.

 

[MANNAT]

Yeah because skarmory and jirachi definitely enjoy switching into a wil-o-wisp and scizor enjoys hp fire. Gengar can run hex or icy wind to beat gliscor and mandibuzz isn't nearly common enough to be mention. It also has a 50% chance to die to life orb blast focus after rocks so it isn't reliable. You do know burn cuts a pokemon attack in half basically making t-tar or whatever rock type your using useless and talonflame can run taunt for heatran. Either way the point I'm trying making is that there are plenty of other pokemon in the meta right now that are near impossible to safely switch into if there running the appropriate coverage move but I wouldn't say there broken. It's the same for hoopa. Really hard to switch into but has flaws that keep it balanced.

HP Fire does the same damage as focus blast to both skarmory and jirachi so that's a moot point. Wisp means that you have a harder time dealing with other mons on stall like chansey and leaves u more vulnerable to twave/toxic. Icy wind doesn't guarentee an OHKO on gliscor and gengar gets blown the fuck back by knock off. TTar is literally only supposed to beat talon and last time i checked 4x super effective stone edge murders talon even when ttar is burned lol. If talon uses taunt, then it cant run bulk up and has a harder time breaking the rest of the team. Hoopa is different because there is no way to ensure you won't lose against it when using stall.

 

[noob nightmare]

At last! God The OU council has finally listened to us!

It's not funny at all to be forced to sacrifice one of your pokemon when facing this beast. Specially if you are using stall.

Edit: I really hope this isn't a joke. If it turns out to be one, the creator of this thread should hide as soon as possible.

 

[bludz]

I think comparing to old suspects is often a really bad thing to do since there are all sorts of flawed comparisons. Realistically Hoopa isn't much like Mega Meta, Landorus, Aegislash or Greninja, outside of being a good wallbreaker with nice coverage. There is definitely merit to considering past precedent but this needs to be treated with a caveat.

Furthermore, real original insight comes primarily when the unique attributes of the current suspect are weighed against the current metagame and the influence this suspect has on it.

I like playing offense. It's my bread and butter; balance is OK sometimes if I feel like being less aggressive. My desire to ban Hoopa has nothing to do with caring about the viability of fat teams or any playstyle really. We suspect things to balance the tier, but that doesn't mean we have to concern ourselves with making all playstyles equally viable. People crying out that stall will be OP and that the pro ban side are stallers are just looking for any excuse for an argument. Stall wasn't OP after Landorus got banned, and we still have fucking Manaphy which no longer has to deal with Goth shenanigans. Offense will be fine without Hoopa, that should not be a concern at all lol

The problem here is that counterplay to this monster is really limited in the team builder, and more limited in actual play than it is made out to be. "In practice" its easy to check in a 1v1 scenario when you consider all the threats that outspeed it. But as soon as you pair it with Rotom (this combo is so broken seriously) it gets free switches into mons like Latios, Venusaur, Amoonguss, Raikou and other things that really don't threaten itwhen its remotely healthy

Pursuit trapping as counterplay is not an empty threat but it also isn't a foolproof strategy. Furthermore as it has been mentioned multiple times, no Pursuit trapper can switch in safely and take out Hoopa before it gets a kill. I mean honestly if you are running Pursuit on every team for a Mon that isn't even guanteed to be KO'd by it, then lol

 

[stardust93]

At last! God The OU council has finally listened to us!

It's not funny at all to be forced to sacrifice one of your pokemon when facing this beast. Specially if you are using stall.

Edit: I really hope this isn't a joke. If it turns out to be one, the creator of this thread should hide as soon as possible.

It's not funny to be forced to sacrifice a mon especially if you are using stall?? Who here thinks facing mega Sableye quag chansey amoongus alomomola skarm all in the same team is fun?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Who here thinks facing mega Sableye quag chansey amoongus alomomola skarm all in the same team is fun?

Manaphy, Mega Garchomp, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham (all but Sableye), and plenty of others. Let's not act like if Hoopa U left stall would be an unbeatable playstyle okay? OU has plenty of Wall and Stallbreakers. This is such a desperate stretch from the anti ban side, it's more annoying than it is anything.

I'll make a legitimate post later, I just regurgitated my food reading this slippery slope BS.

Then again, it is a suspect thread.
What can you really expect?

 

[Nash.]

It's not funny to be forced to sacrifice a mon especially if you are using stall?? Who here thinks facing mega Sableye quag chansey amoongus alomomola skarm all in the same team is fun?

May not be fun to play against but it shouldn't be a point whether or not to ban or not ban a Pokemon . The ban or not ban should be a reflection of how the Pokemon impacts the meta, not "I hate stall and hoopa helps me with it"

 

[baddummy]

What won't come as a surprise to anyone who knows how I vote, is that I'm strongly against a ban.

Hoopa-U isn't broken because it has no switch-ins

There needs to be more substance to an argument than this. Just look at pokemon like Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, and Torn-T. I've included Torn-T specifically because it is not a mega. These are pokemon which also don't have any switch-ins. Furthermore, Heracross is bulkier, Gardevoir is faster, Torn-T is much faster. I don't doubt that Hoopa-U has advantages over these pokemon, I'm just pointing out that they also have advantages over it. What needs to be established is that if these pokemon don't have switch-ins, and Hoopa-U also doesn't have switch-ins, then why is Hoopa-U unhealthy, while these pokemon are not? What I'm getting at here is that no switch-ins alone is not a good enough argument to ban Hoopa, because there are other pokemon that fill this same requirement.

This is why claims of "There's plenty of other stuff that can run over stall, you don't need Hoopa-U in the tier to do that" don't quite ring true. If Hoopa-U isn't unique in its ability to have a very good matchup vs fat builds, then that means it doesn't particularly stand out in the meta, and therefore should stay.

Hoopa-U isn't actually some brainless force that gives free wins

Before you're even in a position where you get an opportunity at getting a kill, where you still need to think about what coverage move is the best option, you need to think about the turns leading up to this situation. How did Hoopa-U come in? It certainly can't switch in on much. It doesn't just come in for free on anything, with weak defences, and a grand total of 1 immunity, and no resistances. It's not as simple as just clicking dark pulse and getting kills, as many pro-banners would make out, because it's actually a difficult pokemon to get in, and people unsurprisingly pack dark resists on their team. Prediction arguments work both ways, so you're not always going to be able to click the appropriate coverage move on the right switch. Please don't look at a scenario where a player has already made the correct plays to end up in a favourable situation, and then is using a free turn to capitalise off of it.

Hoopa-U certainly has weaknesses, it is physically frail, very weak to u turn, and only has 80 base speed. These weakness, with the correct teambuilding support, can be overcome, this is true, and good Hoopa-U teams will have ways to pivot into it, and something to deter u turns,. Let's relook this argument. If you take a very powerful breaker, and support it correctly, with the right team members to overcome its flaws, you can end up with a very favourable matchup vs defensive teams. This shouldn't be a problem. This is standard teambuilding, and in this case, while it may be Hoopa-U getting the kills, it's due to the support by the pivots, and pokemon that can eat up the physical hits, that enable it to do so. This isn't a case of 1 pokemon running through a whole team.


Specs does not actually push Hoopa-U over the edge, I really don't like this point as an argument

It can be argued that specs is the best set, sure. Personally, I think Band has some notable advantages in being able to hit through subs, being able to just click the dark STAB and not worry about whether chansey comes in or not, and also having a super effective move to hit clef with, as well as its main move having a straight up higher base power. On the flip side, specs has a stronger fighting coverage move, its main stab doesn't drop its defence, so it's not as vulnerable to pursuit, and it also can hit from both sides of the spectrum with psyshock.

However, whichever way you slice it, while the pursuit weakness might be alleviated slightly, Hoopa-Unbound still has all the same weakness that make it manageable. It's still slow, it's still frail, it's still weak to u turn. It still requires support to get it in safely, and a huge amount of support to take on the many, many revenge killers that it has. Specs still requires just as much support as band does, so while it might be the favoured set, it isn't some game-breaking innovation that destroys the meta.

A metagame shift isn't necessarily a bad thing

Every time I jump into a suspect thread, I realise everybody their own view of what OU should be like, and this time is no different. Then, I start typing up my own post, and I realise that I'm doing exactly the same thing. When it's all said and done, people are going to vote for the metagame that they personally want to play.

As it is, the metagame that Hoopa-U creates is much faster, and more offensive. Keeping above positive 80 speed is important, and pursuit is more common to trap Hoopa-U, but certainly not mandatory. People who prefer a more defensive metagame are clearly going to vote to ban Hoopa-U for that reason, while people who prefer a more offensive one are going to vote to keep it. I can't change personal preference, and most posts here will just be thinly concealed ways of expressing that preference. However, every good pokemon has a powerful impact on the metagame it's in, and so it's not like Hoopa-U changing the metagame in this way is at all unhealthy. The metagame with Hoopa-U in it is still skill-based, requires solid teambuilding and for mons to be supported. It doesn't give free wins, unless the opponent is dumb enough to spam slow bulky psychic types.

Hoopa-U does deter people from using passive teams that can't apply any sort of offensive pressure, and in particular ones without tyranitar, I realise that. However, to continue to use these teams, despite a metagame shift, is lazy teambuilding. There are numurous ways of getting around Hoopa-U. It can be pursuit trapped, it's extremely physically frail. Hell, Torn-T is notable in particular as it can u turn out on Hoopa-U, or, if you predict the switch out, which they almost certainly will, you can just get a kill straight back with life orb hurricane. This is not a switch-in, this is applying offensive pressure right back in order to work your way around a glass cannon, rather than just letting it sit there and fire off moves.

This is a slow pokemon with exploitable weaknesses, and very weak defensive typing. There are clear ways to adapt to it, those ways are not niche or extremely restrictive, and it doesn't subtract from the skill of a game once you do so. So the only conclusion I can think of is that the ideal meta for the pro-ban side is one where they don't have to adapt to Hoopa-U. I'm not going to go for this line of thinking, and suspect voters shouldn't either.

The "I need a switch-in" to everything mentality has been outdated for a long time, and if Hoopa-U forces people to finally drop it for good, then I can only say that this is a good thing. Hoopa-U is just the epitomy of a glass cannon, and while it may be the most effective breaker in the tier, a lot of these posts pointing out anything similar to you being able to pivot it in with the right support, and then pick up a kill, should really try replacing Hoopa-U with any of the other other powerful breakers in the tier. It doesn't really add anything to the discussion in my opinion, because that's just how you support and play a breaker.

These are the real questions that I believe we should be asking:

Does Hoopa-U deduct from the skill of a game once you accept and build for a meta with Hoopa-U in it?

Does Hoopa-U force specific pokemon to be used, once you accept the fact that in this new meta all teams must be able to provide a certain amount of offensive pressure?

I strongly believe the answer to both of these is "No." The metagame has undeniably changed with Hoopa-U in it, but it is still as healthy and skill based as it always was, which is why, if you disregard any personal preference, you'll see that Hoopa-U is perfectly fine for the tier. This isn't about keeping Hoopa-U specifically to demolish stall, this is about keeping Hoopa-U because the meta is still competitive with it in it.

I thought I'd make a quick edit, just look at this post by Outrageous Fortune, http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...und-6-purple-haze.3568442/page-3#post-6733781
This post provides more evidence than any other in this thread, where you can see this new metagame in action, and it's clearly fair and skill based.

For these reasons, please vote do not ban.

 

[stardust93]

Manaphy, Mega Garchomp, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham (all but Sableye), and plenty of others. Let's not act like if Hoopa U left stall would be an unbeatable playstyle okay? OU has plenty of Wall and Stallbreakers. This is such a desperate stretch from the anti ban side, it's more annoying than it is anything.

I'll make a legitimate post later, I just regurgitated my food reading this slippery slope BS.

Then again, it is a suspect thread.
What can you really expect?

I never said that if Hoopa leaves ou, stall becomes an issue. I'm just saying that don't say it's not fun to sacrifice a mon against hoopa especially using stall. That makes no sense. Against hoopa, more often than not you will sac a mon to check the moveset it's running in order to revenge. But that's the case against powerful attackers in this tier. While it's true you can never know the moveset it's running until u sac something to safely switch a mon to revenge, its still possible to play around it. There are no true counters to all these wall breakers you speak of. There are only checks to these. All these wall breakers require a pokemon to be sacrificed in order to check them. So I'm not sure why hoopa is the only issue here

 

[xray]

I'm Rick Astley : MGarde, MHera, Torn-T all have switchins...
I can list you some via PM... but your post doesnt rlly make sense...
These mons are not comparable to Hoopa-U. Maybe MGarde a bit but they dont have as many possible movesets as Hoopa-U has nor do they have "no switchins"...