That's a fairly big if. Swords Dance'd LO Superpower does 115.52% - 135.99% to even the most defensive Lapras, so I can't say it should be called a real counter.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
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That's a fairly big if. Swords Dance'd LO Superpower does 115.52% - 135.99% to even the most defensive Lapras, so I can't say it should be called a real counter.
Feraligatr was one of the most beastly UU pokemon in ADV, and that was BEFORE it got physical STAB to work with, Superpower, OR Dragon Dance.
Although one thing that did make it effective was the fact if your opponent brought in (Physical Wall) you could just slaughter it with Hydro Pump, which generally silenced your opponent in short order.
Maganium is probably the best bet then. Switch in on swords dance, reflect after eating 53% from ice fang. Survive next turn with 25%ish damage due to reflect, Giga drain back some 40% health and deals like 80 to 90% damage.
If he Dragon Dances on the switch, even better. He outruns you anyway if you're running max/max +Def nature.
If he Dragon Dances on the switch, even better. He outruns you anyway if you're running max/max +Def nature.
CBgatr?Just plain WRONG.That would be cool to make a destroyer set,like a dragon dance feraligatr @ life orb with Dragon Dance,Waterfall,Superpower,Earthquake.
Also,Feraligatr should stay up in BL.But it might be too beastly for it O_O
But then again,I bet it could be decent in Gyarados,as a more physical defensive Gyarados.It has Swords Dance,and Dragon Dance + Ice Fang,Earthquake,Rock Slide,Aqua Tail,Waterfall,Stone Edge?,and other stuff.
Also,I think Ambipom isn't in Bl.It is a fast baton passer,decent attack, good movepool of physical attacks(most are from emerald),and a good speed stat too.
Also,Feraligatr should stay up in BL.But it might be too beastly for it O_O
But then again,I bet it could be decent in Gyarados,as a more physical defensive Gyarados.It has Swords Dance,and Dragon Dance + Ice Fang,Earthquake,Rock Slide,Aqua Tail,Waterfall,Stone Edge?,and other stuff.
Also,I think Ambipom isn't in Bl.It is a fast baton passer,decent attack, good movepool of physical attacks(most are from emerald),and a good speed stat too.
Ice Punch, not Ice Fang.
And I haven't calculated it out, but I'm pretty sure SD'd Ice Fang would deal more than 53%, especially if Feraligatr is packing LO. I could be wrong, though.
Lol. Ambipom revenge kills Feraligatr >_>
Jolly Silk Scarf Ambipom vs Feraligatr
Fake-Out 32.48% - 38.26%
Return 63.67% - 74.92%
No, I'm pretty sure we don't want a 115 base speed pokemon who forces out sweepers and has Focus Punch in UU. Talking about things that aren't countered... we're looking at Adv Tauros who gets a 50% boost on Fake-Out, and has complete type coverage with Shadow Claw, Focus Punch / Brick Break, fake-out and return.
...
Why the hell aren't people using this guy? o.O
"Weaker Gyarados" my ass. Ice Punch instead of Ice Fang, Superpower for base 120 Fighting, Slide / Quake, and both SD and DD... And then it gets fricken torrent at 33% health to boost waterfall even more >_>
Jolly Silk Scarf Ambipom vs Feraligatr
Fake-Out 32.48% - 38.26%
Return 63.67% - 74.92%
No, I'm pretty sure we don't want a 115 base speed pokemon who forces out sweepers and has Focus Punch in UU. Talking about things that aren't countered... we're looking at Adv Tauros who gets a 50% boost on Fake-Out, and has complete type coverage with Shadow Claw, Focus Punch / Brick Break, fake-out and return.
...
Why the hell aren't people using this guy? o.O
"Weaker Gyarados" my ass. Ice Punch instead of Ice Fang, Superpower for base 120 Fighting, Slide / Quake, and both SD and DD... And then it gets fricken torrent at 33% health to boost waterfall even more >_>
Ok, in order to give this tier discussion some legs, I'm gonna make a list of all the pokes who have yet to make BL or OU, and therefore be allowed in UU play:
Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Armaldo
Azumarill
Banette
Bastiodon
Bellossom
Bibarel
Blastoise
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Clamperl
Clefable
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Crobat
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Fearow
Feraligatr
Froslass
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lapras
Linoone
Lopunny
Lunatone
Luxray
Manetric
Mantine
Meganium
Mightyena
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Pikachu
Pinsir
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Regigigas
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Slowking
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Swellow
Tentacruel
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Trapinch
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Xatu
Yeah, it's big. I even took out the painfully obvious NU pokes, and its still friggin huge. A couple things that caught my eye would be Absol, Armaldo, Ursaring, Typhlosion, Cradily and Crobat making the list.
Feraligatr (as well as anything else that would be agreed to be BL at this point on) is bolded red until its put on BL.
Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Armaldo
Azumarill
Banette
Bastiodon
Bellossom
Bibarel
Blastoise
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Clamperl
Clefable
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Crobat
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Fearow
Feraligatr
Froslass
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lapras
Linoone
Lopunny
Lunatone
Luxray
Manetric
Mantine
Meganium
Mightyena
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Pikachu
Pinsir
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Regigigas
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Slowking
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Swellow
Tentacruel
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Trapinch
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Xatu
Yeah, it's big. I even took out the painfully obvious NU pokes, and its still friggin huge. A couple things that caught my eye would be Absol, Armaldo, Ursaring, Typhlosion, Cradily and Crobat making the list.
Feraligatr (as well as anything else that would be agreed to be BL at this point on) is bolded red until its put on BL.
Unless I'm missing something, that seems to be the most logical conclusion.
Oh, and for the record, SD'd Ice Punch does 61.81% - 72.53% to Meganium without a boosting item. After Reflect, it does 30.77% - 36.26%. Meganium does have a pretty good chance of staying alive, but not for long... And that's without Life Orb factored in. With LO, you get 80.22% - 94.51%. Any other boosting item would probably increase the damage to a certain 2HKO, as well.
Yeah, Feraligatr is a bit strong. lets get back to Snover. >_>
Toxicroak seems BL with Sucker-Punch and Swords Dance. While he may look vunerable with Fighting/Poison, he has numerous awesome resistances including water absorption, resists the fighting / rock combo, and 4x resists bug. He himself has the ability to Taunt / Swords Dance to block phazers.
In OU, he has to carry Sucker Punch as 85 base speed is a bit low. But in UU, I don't think he has much to worry. Either way, he has Sucker Punch + Taunt, so there is also a good "bluff" factor in as well. He doesn't need sucker punch, and can easily replace it with swords dance instead.
Taunt / Swords Dance / Stone Edge / Brick Break is scary. He can't be phazed, he can come in to common choice banded attacks, he can bluff with sucker-punch, etc. etc. (or hell, he can sucker-punch period over swords dance, or over taunt)
Toxicroak seems BL with Sucker-Punch and Swords Dance. While he may look vunerable with Fighting/Poison, he has numerous awesome resistances including water absorption, resists the fighting / rock combo, and 4x resists bug. He himself has the ability to Taunt / Swords Dance to block phazers.
In OU, he has to carry Sucker Punch as 85 base speed is a bit low. But in UU, I don't think he has much to worry. Either way, he has Sucker Punch + Taunt, so there is also a good "bluff" factor in as well. He doesn't need sucker punch, and can easily replace it with swords dance instead.
Taunt / Swords Dance / Stone Edge / Brick Break is scary. He can't be phazed, he can come in to common choice banded attacks, he can bluff with sucker-punch, etc. etc. (or hell, he can sucker-punch period over swords dance, or over taunt)
Ehh, why use Brick Break when you can use Cross Chop?
Also, do remember that Toxicroak can run a special attacking set with Nasty Plot/Focus Blast/Dark Pulse/Taunt or Sucker Punch. Yes, it does have a really good movepool.
One big thing about Toxicroak is that it's very unpredictable in what it runs, and may be a physical attacker/special attacker/sub-puncher with rain, etc. Plus this guy can actually abuse weather in UU extremely well with Dry Skin restoring 12.5% every turn in the rain. It can switch in really easily on many attacks, especially with the absorbing ability.
I would like to hear some counters for it...although I suppose Psychic moves count as one...
Well, specifically Substitute to block Sucker Punch and then a psychic attack.
What is the general stance on Slowking? So far, there was only minimal discussion about it, and I believe that whoever posted about it said that it should be moved to BL. Is there anyone with a counter-argument saying that it should stay UU?
If anyone has missed it, here's my stance on the subject.
If anyone has missed it, here's my stance on the subject.
Slowking, is, well... slow.
But he's very powerful.
There's not a lot seperating him and slowpoke. Just some different stat allocations, and slightly differing movepools.
I think slowpoke has a ton of potential.
And he should be BL.
Actually I predicted you'd try use this argument hence why I brought up Noctowl. It can Whirlwind and Hypnosis too you know and is faster than Walrein, therefore it doesn't necessarily have to try outstall you but its definitely disrupting your play.
Why the hell would I run a Muk with absolutely no attack? Thats a massive waste if I ever seen one and 1HP damage is hardly anything when Taunt would stop you attempting any sort of stall. For example my favourite is Subpunch I could run only 180 s.def EV's with Adamant and 404HP and Walrein would NEVER break Muk's sub in one Surf and Taunt would leave you in a bad position.
Now this still leaves me with enough attack EV's for 302 attack which against even a full 252/252 +def Stallrein takes well over regions of 51-60%. That sends you onto a defensive with a locked down Pokemon and the fun part is Muk still has room to further enhance its defenses and also a slot for one more move in this kind of setup. Of course you could run a more offensive Walrein but then you compromise much of what makes the defensive set so effective.
Anyway back on the topic I think its more or elss an overwhelming call for Feraligatr to be moved.
As far as this topic has gone going from Slickee's list the ones who had most arguments with least objections against for BL were.
-Feraligatr
-Poliwrath
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ninetales
-Ursaring
As for debatables.
-Regigas
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Slowking
I haven't included BL's who were suggested for a move down to UU.
Anything its weak to. Psychic, Flying, Ground, Fire. (Remember Dry Skin gives it a added fire weakness).
It doesn't have great defenses only usuable so anything super effective will cripple it instantly.
@Shiny Oddish
Yeah missed that, I thought it was already in BL. Edited above post.
But basically if anyone has any last objections to the first list than say them now because they are very much on the waiting list for a move given all the discussion.
I still say Clefable, but as I appear to be the only one ... guess its staying, I'll just have to learn to like Toxicroak or one of the Hitmons.
I say Feraligatr, Crobat, Slowking and Typhlosion move up to BL. Heres why.
Crobat: Fastest Hypnosis in the game, Brave Bird, decent attacking stats. Nast Plot + Air Slash too.
Feraligatr: Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, good physical movepool. High Attack, Defense, HP, decent Speed. No 4x weakness, unlike Gyardos.
Typhlosion: Choice Scarf/Specs eruption, anyone? Impossible to stop without Ninetales or Rapidash on your team, or a water+rock type. Way too deadly.
Slowking: Nasty Plot + two special STAB = ownage. It's bulky too, and makes a good trick roomer. Also gets Slack Off.
UUs:
Ursaring is too slow for BL, Pinsir is OK, but outclassed by Herra (and has a sucky type) Ninetales is needed to absorb fire, Azumarril is pretty good, but not BL matierial. Poliwrath is UU too, its OK, not great. Regigas + slow start = fail.
Now before I get flamed about Azumarril again: A water type with 218 special attack would do as much with hydro pump as Azumarrils CB aqua jet does. Do you see that ruining the UU metagame? No.
Quick Feet doubles Ursaring's speed when inflicted with status condition, and it can still abuse STAB Facade, learns a Fighting/Ghost attack and Swords Dance. What in the UU is a sure fire switch in?
It's the Hypnosis + Nasty Plot combo with a fairly decent speed that has people worried with Ninetales. And they should be ... it is a contender for BL consideration. However if Glaceon remains UU there is a good case for keeping Ninetales, as she makes a great counter to Glaceon.
Azumarill is more than just Aqua Jet ... besides Aqua Jet is the weakest attack it runs off that 600+ stat irregardless of STAB.
It's the Hypnosis + Nasty Plot combo with a fairly decent speed that has people worried with Ninetales. And they should be ... it is a contender for BL consideration. However if Glaceon remains UU there is a good case for keeping Ninetales, as she makes a great counter to Glaceon.
Azumarill is more than just Aqua Jet ... besides Aqua Jet is the weakest attack it runs off that 600+ stat irregardless of STAB.
No, he hasn't. Seriously. We're talking bout the 'King, not the 'poke! But he certainly looks BL to me. He's capable of 375 HP/280 Defence/280 Sp Def AND Nasty Plot with two special STABS, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball (Hi Grumpig and Hypno) etc.
Glaceon, the special Ice type, counters Ninetales, the special defensive Fire type? I'm not sure how that one works.
Ursaring certainly looks BL to me. He was BL last gen and through the introduction of Toxic Orb and Quick Feet he has improved massively. He doesn't suffer from Swellow's movepool drawbacks so can easily destroy the UU walls. He'll be tough to stop.
As for the others, they could easily go in either tier so I think solid testing is required.
Skiddle, can I mention something? In many of your posts, instead of providing reasoning as to why X pokemon would unbalance or overcentralize the UU metagame, you're simply providing reasoning as to why it's a good pokemon. I do agree with many of your choices, but you're not providing evidence that proves that something does or doesn't belong in UU, like "X pokemon lacks a real counter", or "X pokemon can outspeed all of UU after 1 speed boost and 1-2HKO any pokemon that attempt to wall it", or "X pokemon can effectively wall every physical attacker in UU without a fire move". I don't mean to be rude, but if you're not giving real reasons as to why pokemon belong where they do, then you're not contributing a whole lot to the discussion.
Anyways...I'm of the opinion that Slowking is definitely a possibility for BL, though I think it could still be considered for UU. It's not outspeeding anything, but it can pose a sweeping threat in UU thanks to Nasty Plot combined with it's durability, and with Shadow Ball it's not going to be stopped by any of the UU special walls. Actually, it makes a very effective special wall itself (95/80/110 defenses, compared to Hypno's 85/70/115 and Grumpig's 80/65/110. And unlike either of those two, it has a reliable recovery move, along with higher sp atk and a much better offensive movepool). Water type adds weaknesses to Electric and Grass, though, making Slowking weaker against several other special threats like Manelectric. I'm somewhat unsure of how much of a sweeping threat Slowking poses thanks to the fact that it's so slow and can easily be statused or just KO'd. It's coverage is also somewhat questionable, especially if it's using Shadow Ball for Grumpig/Hypno. It could go either way, I think.
Anyways...I'm of the opinion that Slowking is definitely a possibility for BL, though I think it could still be considered for UU. It's not outspeeding anything, but it can pose a sweeping threat in UU thanks to Nasty Plot combined with it's durability, and with Shadow Ball it's not going to be stopped by any of the UU special walls. Actually, it makes a very effective special wall itself (95/80/110 defenses, compared to Hypno's 85/70/115 and Grumpig's 80/65/110. And unlike either of those two, it has a reliable recovery move, along with higher sp atk and a much better offensive movepool). Water type adds weaknesses to Electric and Grass, though, making Slowking weaker against several other special threats like Manelectric. I'm somewhat unsure of how much of a sweeping threat Slowking poses thanks to the fact that it's so slow and can easily be statused or just KO'd. It's coverage is also somewhat questionable, especially if it's using Shadow Ball for Grumpig/Hypno. It could go either way, I think.
It should also be mentioned that Slowking can set up Trick Room for itself to make it faster than almost anything, although that would probably give it serious four-moveslot syndrome, as if it didn't already have it.
I also don't think Slowking would need Shadow Ball, given that Surf would still 2HKO Grumpig/Hypno after a Nasty Plot.
It seems to me that Slowking has a special movepool so large that it poses a threat to almost anything in UU (although light, bulky Waters such as Lapras and Lanturn may stand a chance of walling it, not sure), but not enough moveslots to cover everything. Whether that makes it BL or not I couldn't say without testing it.
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