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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Dragontamer said:
Phazers do exist in UU, don't they? I mean, Walrein has roar, yawn and encore, and any one of those can stop the cosmic powers. Then Lapras has perish song to force you out entirely.
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Lapras is as debatable a UU as Clefable.

Walrein, yes it could phaze Clefable but then what? You still have to take it out - besides the cosmic power set was only listed as a worse case scenario, there are many possible sets you could be facing, which is part of the problem.
 
Dragontamer said:
Phazers do exist in UU, don't they? I mean, Walrein has roar, yawn and encore, and any one of those can stop the cosmic powers. Then Lapras has perish song to force you out entirely.
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Yeah, just cause something has some nice stat-uppers doesnt mean it's BL automatically. Clefable dies to like 2 brick breaks. Octillery gets Haze, and so does Golbat. A lot of stuff can learn roar, too. Magic Guard is an extremely good ability, but other than that, nothing improved for Clefable.
 
Also theres other excellent UU hazers, Drifblim and Politoed also come to mind. Politoed is even able to run both Haze or Perish Song. Quagsire, Blastoise are other possibilities.

Phazers are abit more scarce only effective ones that come to mind being Walrein, Blastoise most are abit on the fragile side.

Walrein, yes it could phaze Clefable but then what? You still have to take it out - besides the cosmic power set was only listed as a worse case scenario, there are many possible sets you could be facing, which is part of the problem.
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Most of them being offensive which would require Clefable to be alot more fragile. Clefable doesn't have a awful lot of stats to be randomly distributing in all honesty.
 
Forsety said:
Also theres other excellent UU hazers, Drifblim and Politoed also come to mind. Politoed is even able to run both Haze or Perish Song. Quagsire, Blastoise are other possibilities.

Phazers are abit more scarce only effective ones that come to mind being Walrein, Blastoise most are abit on the fragile side.


Most of them being offensive which would require Clefable to be alot more fragile. Clefable doesn't have a awful lot of stats to be randomly distributing in all honesty.
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QFT

Clefable has only 473 base stats. It has 95/73/90 defences. It's fairly bulky, but it only goes so far. Toxicroak can nearly OHKO with Brick Break, it would be a OHKO with any item boost.
 
Thunderpup said:
Kangaskahn, with 105/95/80 in defenses, and a base 90 speed (important when you put him up against stallrein)
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Oh yeah I forgot about her. Mainly because I tend to associate the thing as a sweeper. But yes those defenses and typing most definitely lets it phaze too (My own one is a full sweeper hence why it didn't occur to me).
 
Forsety said:
Oh yeah I forgot about her. Mainly because I tend to associate the thing as a sweeper. But yes those defenses and typing most definitely lets it phaze too (My own one is a full sweeper hence why it didn't occur to me).
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It's okay, mine is a Subpuncher, and instead of return in the last slot, I threw in roar, mainly because she's used in BL and I don't want to run into stallrein and be unprepared.
(plus I run toxic spikes ;) ;) ;0)

But this is offtopic.

(and kanga doesn't count as much, because not a lot of people will put roar on it)
 
Thunderpup said:
Kangaskahn, with 105/95/80 in defenses, and a base 90 speed (important when you put him up against stallrein)
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Kangaskhan doesn't have that much Defense. It's base 80 just like her Special Defense.

On the subject of Kangaskhan, I'm wondering. What is it that makes Miltank BL but not her? Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that they serve completely different roles, but they seem to be equal in strengths and weaknesses. For instance, Miltank functions well as a physical tank with Curse and recovery, but at the same time sacrifices its decent speed and remains vulnerable on its weaker special side. Kangaskhan on the other hand can create 101 HP Subs and unleash powerful attacks behind it, but is also more frail defensively with no reliable recovery move. As for Scrappy, it is an undeniable improvement for Kanga, whilst on Miltank it is more of a dilemma. Do you go with full coverage with two attacks or gain two important resistances for better tanking ability at the cost of possibly being walled by something? Obviously they can both do much more than this but you get my point.

I apologize if there is something really obvious I'm missing that makes Miltank superbroken in UU, but given that there has been no discussion on either of them until now, I wonder what everyone thinks about it.
 
Its a fantastic cleric that actually happens to be well rounded unlike Bliss simple as that. Does alot of things right cleric duties, quite fast, soak up physical assaults, can Seismic Toss or try its luck physically. Two excellent traits to choose from.

Kangaskhan's downfall is the lack of proper healing, its attack/speed isn't quite high enough to actually make it that absolutely threatening. Finally being Kangaskhan is actually incredibly easily walled, it relies so heavily on just well rounded physical assaults anything slightly tougher than usual proves a massive problem to it.

If I were to sum it up.
Kangaskhan = Quite well rounded
Miltank = Very well rounded
 
Scrappy means it hits all with Brick Break and Return, which is nice, but yeah, other than that, *shudder* Miltank is better, becuase it can wall.
 
ChouToshio said:
no stallrein without abamasnow . . .
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Snover however, has not been discussed yet. It is a NFE pokemon... but that is another discussion.

Unlike Abomasnow, Snover will be utter crap in UU. However, it shares abomasnow's snow warning, making it potentially very dangerous as it can set up Stallrein, Specs Glaceon, and really every other UU Ice pokemon who can learn blizzard.
 
Forsety said:
Its a fantastic cleric that actually happens to be well rounded unlike Bliss simple as that. Does alot of things right cleric duties, quite fast, soak up physical assaults, can Seismic Toss or try its luck physically. Two excellent traits to choose from.

Kangaskhan's downfall is the lack of proper healing, its attack/speed isn't quite high enough to actually make it that absolutely threatening. Finally being Kangaskhan is actually incredibly easily walled, it relies so heavily on just well rounded physical assaults anything slightly tougher than usual proves a massive problem to it.

If I were to sum it up.
Kangaskhan = Quite well rounded
Miltank = Very well rounded
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Well I wouldn't deny that Miltank is much more well-rounded than Kangaskhan, but what I'm really wondering is what separates them by a whole tier. In other words, what it is that makes Miltank 'uncounterable' if you will in UU. I can see why it was a real threat back in Advance, with no Specs or Life Orb making UU special attackers rather lacking in firepower to threaten significantly, but in D/P there are plenty of strong special attackers that can force Miltank out with the threat of a 1-2HKO, many of whom also possess decent enough Defense to switch in quite comfortably. After all, 80 base Attack isn't immediately threatening in anyone's book, and really needs Curse setup to start packing a punch, and it is no longer a guarantee that it can be pulled off.
 
On the other hand Rain Dancers, Sunny Day users function alot better when the extent of their fears is dealing with a Hippo baby and Snover.

In all honesty even if your that desperate your doing yourself more damage than you're doing favours. Your essentially running only 5 pokemon. I mean seriously Snover is the freakin equivilent of Farfetch'd in stats.

what it is that makes Miltank 'uncounterable' if you will in UU.
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One thing to note is what exactly are you countering? There isn't exactly a defined Cleric counter out there especially not for something that bulky. If you think about it another way, Miltank does the Cleric job pretty damn good. If not slightly better than Blissey as it does not risk stray OHKO's. Anything else good about you can find is nothing more than a bonus the icing on top of the cake.

However you have nailed a certain point that when you look at the fat cow bases they're actually almost identical to Kangaskhan's. So chances are the differences your looking for is in moves, traits. On Miltank's end is things like T-Wave, Heal Bell, Milk Drink, Stealth Rock, Seismic Toss, Zen Headbutt (rather handy for catching out dozy fighters). The thing has multiple roles which is something significant the big K just can't boast.

Heres the punchline the type of role it plays means you can slot it into any team and it wouldn't be disadvantaged whatsoever. What does that sound like? OU's of course.

So why don't people use it? Because Bliss is also an excellent Cleric and it happens everyone needs a special sponge, its a 2 for 1 offer.

I wouldn't be against Miltank in UU, it could be a rather interesting experience. For one thing, Thick Fat variation gives Glaceon something to chew over
 
I'm quite new to this but, why Rampardos in the BL? It is a good Pokemon. brute force may be speed lacking thouh but it may be a bit over BL.
 
If you have been reading along: BL means OU that isnt used. Same power, but not popular. UU means its underpowered.
 
Dragontamer said:
However, it shares abomasnow's snow warning, making it potentially very dangerous as it can set up Stallrein, Specs Glaceon, and really every other UU Ice pokemon who can learn blizzard.
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Which is why I don't like the idea of weather coming down to UU. I've actually been looking forward to trying my hand at UU, but didn't want to until an actual list was made. That's getting off topic. What I want to say is, along with enhancing their own strategies, hail/sandstorm wreck a lot of others!

I always figured UU would be a place where Focus Sashers, Sucker punchers, stat-up berry users, reversal/flail users and the like would actually get to try their hand at being truly effective instead of being blasted in by instant weather. Sure there are still all kinds of spikes around, but as a threat to those "low health" strategies, they're nothing compared to a constant stream of damage that doesn't even require set-up.

That's the thing that really screws it up-- that the weather abilities don't even require a turn to set up! Plus the only way to get rid of them is to use rain dance/sunny day which have all sorts of other effects attached to them, and can be cancelled again just by switching snover/hippopatas in again. It's totally changed the way OU is played, and it will totally change the way UU works.
 
Rampardos is fine where it is. Too strong for UU, but not a popular attraction.

On the other hand Rain Dancers, Sunny Day users function alot better when the extent of their fears is dealing with a Hippo baby and Snover.

In all honesty even if your that desperate your doing yourself more damage than you're doing favours. Your essentially running only 5 pokemon. I mean seriously Snover is the freakin equivilent of Farfetch'd in stats.
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However, the vast majority of arguments for Glaceon and Walrein's place in UU was that their OU sets (Stallrein and Specs Blizzard) are impossible due to the lack of everlasting hail.

If Snover is in UU or below, then that nullifies most arguments against Glaceon and Walrein's BL status. That means stallrein IS viable.

Now, if Glaceon and Walrein are moved up to BL because of Snover (aka, snow warning), then we can clearly see a problem. We are losing 2 potential pokemon in a metagame just so that one pokemon (snover) can exist, and no one is going to fricken use snover anyway. I'd rather ban snover and be able to play with Glaceon and Walrein in UU. Hell, maybe snow warning is the push needed to make Lapras a BL pokemon as well. It already boasts dragon dance, curse + Ice Shard, Bolt/Blizzard/Surf, 101 subs (with only 12 EV investment >_> WTF at 130 base HP ) water immunity, rest/sleep talk and more. And forcing the opponent to have no leftovers is pretty sick.

Anyway, I ask: what counters stallrein in UU? Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick will miss on protect making it kill itself >_> Close Combat from Choice Band Pinsir is still only a solid 2-hit KO, and it is not like Pinsir will be able to counter Stallrein, it only prevents it from setting up. Meaning I can easily just throw down a pinsir counter, then throw out stallrein against whatever other guy you sent out.

Even weird stuff like Whirlwind Crobat will die to Blizzard, so that isn't even a complete counter. Slower phazers can be roared out as Walrein's base 65 speed is not that bad, especially in UU.

The list of counters is small with Stallrein. I mean, its like Whirlwind Crobat and Roar Manetric that can actually force it out, but even then you'll have to deal with it later, and you can't set-up as Stallrein is also a phazer. Taunt/Plot Crobat is 3-hit KOed by Surf and OHKOed by Blizzard if you include hail.

And thats IF Crobat makes it to UU.

Basically: It does not matter if you are running only 5 pokemon when the list of 1 pokemon's counters is very small. That is what you call over centralizing the metagame.
 
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