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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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I don't think anyone's even suggested that Mamoswine was UU.

Anyway, I think Hitmontop should be BL. It's base attack is only a hair less than Ambipom and it has a *much* bigger list of Technician moves, including Pursuit, two stabbed priority moves (one for auto-first, one for auto-second), three un-stabbed prioirty moves (for extra options/surprise technique), a sub-breaker move that (I believe) effectively has 60 BP, also stabbed, and good, ol' power standby moves (EQ, Stone Edge, Close Combat) in case you want to use the *other* good ability he has instead.

Some configuration of this 'mon can demolish nearly half the OU/BL 'mons. If that doesn't get something into BL then I don't know what does.
 
X-Codes said:
I don't think anyone's even suggested that Mamoswine was UU.

Anyway, I think Hitmontop should be BL. It's base attack is only a hair less than Ambipom and it has a *much* bigger list of Technician moves, including Pursuit, two stabbed priority moves (one for auto-first, one for auto-second), three un-stabbed prioirty moves (for extra options/surprise technique), a sub-breaker move that (I believe) effectively has 60 BP, also stabbed, and good, ol' power standby moves (EQ, Stone Edge, Close Combat) in case you want to use the *other* good ability he has instead.

Some configuration of this 'mon can demolish nearly half the OU/BL 'mons. If that doesn't get something into BL then I don't know what does.
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Hitmontop doesn't get STAB on Fake Out, it can't do much of anything to the Psychic special walls in UU, and it can't U-Turn like Ambipom. It also has 70 Speed instead of Ampipom's 110, and its decent defenses are let down by its craptacular 50 base HP.

Hitmontop's trouble is no matter how you EV it, it will always either lack drability because of poor HP, be too slow to nail anything with a move above 60(adjusted for tech) BP, or be too weak to do much damage.

Intimidate is still a good ability since it can Bulk Up and switch into physical attacks.

Hitmontop just isn't unbalancing to UU. An effective 120(80 if it has Intimidate) BP Pursuit on Psychic walls, most of which carry Reflect, isn't that good. Hitmontop also has trouble with the CB Birds, as it can't hope to take out even Fearow with STAB Technician Mach Punch.

After all, they let Primeape into UU in an enviroment with no auto-Hail or Auto-Sandstorm, and its Subversaling is arguably a better skill. If Primeape gets set up, it can sweep, especially now that it can throw Ice Punch on there to deal with birds and Gligar. Nevermind it can now LOL Anger Point when a Sub gets haxed and have +6 Attack in addition to outspeeding everything.

LOL maybe we should think about sending Primeape to BL.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
It seems to be the general consensus at the moment that NFEs are banned from UU unless they 'serve a completely different purpose'. However this seems strange to me as everybody still seems to keep bringing up Tangela as a decent UU physical wall, and I can't for the life of me understand what different purpose it serves compared to Tangrowth.

If it were up to me, I'd judge every Pokemon completely on their own merits regardless of evolutionary line, but it isn't. As for Chansey, I think even if it were allowed consideration for UU, it would end up BL as it shrugs off the strongest special attacks in UU with even greater ease than Blissey in OU, not to mention the scarcity of Ghosts and 101 HP Substitute Pokemon to absorb Seismic Toss. Seems to powerful a wall in that environment to me.
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To me this whole No NFE thing seems ridiculous on its face.

Tangela's been in UU since RBY, Gligar and Piloswine since GSC. Why should we stop using them for competitive UU play just because Nintendo brainfarted out a new evolution for them last April?

While we shouldn't go listing every pokemon as part of a tier, I feel that pokemon that used to be final evolutions should be discussed and "grandfathered in" as it were, considering we've already got analyses for them in Advance and the changes in DP, while significant, do little to change their playstyle.

Why should we ban Tangela from UU because Tangrowth exists in OU? It makes no sense to me. Tangela would be perfectly viable in a UU environment. As to different purpose: Unlike Tangrowth, it doesn't have 100 Base attack so its mostly relegated to a special attacker with good defense, a hard find. Apparently it is also 10 Base points faster than Tangrowth, which is enough to make it a competent Sunnybeamer as well.

What about Magneton? It was OU last gen only because it was THE counter to Skarmory. I'm still a little worried about it because with 70 Base speed and a viable Specs set (Tri Attack/TBolt/HP/Flash Cannon) it could slaughter a lot of things in UU. It still gets stopped mostly by the Nidos, and Quags/Gastrodon(for HP Ice versions), but it would be quite a force.

Finally, is anyone really going to ban Aipom and Lickitung from NU? I mean, come on people, why do that.

As to Chansey: Its Blissey lite. That's all you need to know.
 
Well, what about Gligar? It now has SD+Roost+Life Orb+A respectable attack stat+STAB EQ+Stone Edge for fliers and can BP Rock Polish easily to stuff by coming in on Aggron(which probably won't be carrying Ice Beam).

I can think of a lot of stuff that can utilize Rock Polish in UU. Azumarill for one, since everyone wants it in UU. Octillery of course will utilize it very well.
 
Deck Knight said:
Hitmontop doesn't get STAB on Fake Out, it can't do much of anything to the Psychic special walls in UU, and it can't U-Turn like Ambipom. It also has 70 Speed instead of Ampipom's 110, and its decent defenses are let down by its craptacular 50 base HP.

Hitmontop's trouble is no matter how you EV it, it will always either lack drability because of poor HP, be too slow to nail anything with a move above 60(adjusted for tech) BP, or be too weak to do much damage.

Intimidate is still a good ability since it can Bulk Up and switch into physical attacks.

Hitmontop just isn't unbalancing to UU. An effective 120(80 if it has Intimidate) BP Pursuit on Psychic walls, most of which carry Reflect, isn't that good. Hitmontop also has trouble with the CB Birds, as it can't hope to take out even Fearow with STAB Technician Mach Punch.
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Actually... pursuit has 60 BP with technician no switch, 40 BP with intimidate, and 80 if they switch out, regardless of technician or intimidate.

After all, they let Primeape into UU in an enviroment with no auto-Hail or Auto-Sandstorm, and its Subversaling is arguably a better skill. If Primeape gets set up, it can sweep, especially now that it can throw Ice Punch on there to deal with birds and Gligar. Nevermind it can now LOL Anger Point when a Sub gets haxed and have +6 Attack in addition to outspeeding everything.

LOL maybe we should think about sending Primeape to BL.
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Hello Focus sash :-)
 
Davimert said:
Hello Stealth Rock/Spikes :-)
The only thing that beats Subversal Primeape is something with a priority move, as basicly everything will get killed by it's reversal/2nd/3rd attack.
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Yeah, it gets beaten by priority moves, which A LOT of things have. Remember, this was a good strategy back in ADV when Quick Attack/Mach Punch/Extremespeed were the only priority moves, but now there's things like Aqua Jet/Bullet Punch/Vaccum Wave/Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak and I think that's all of them.

Priority moves are a lot more abundant this generation, going from only 3 moves to 8 different ones. Especially Sucker Punch which a lot of pokemon get. You'll obviously be attacking with Reversal, so sucker punch will destroy it.

Just thought I'd mention that.
 
Technician affects base power of all moves 60 or less, he meant that the power is 80 regardless of the ability. Having played UU I can say that Hitmontop isn't that hard to counter as long as you're careful, it just relies on a bit of prediction. It can't really touch Psychics anyway, and there's Ground types for Stone Edge (which hits neutral on Psychics and isn't really that much of a threat)
 
The very thought of Hitmontop as anything but UU is pretty laughable in itself. Its pretty strong but its not exactly the easiest thing to setup with. You'd have an easier time labeling Hitmonlee as the CB user of death and even thats a stretch.
 
Deck Knight said:
To me this whole No NFE thing seems ridiculous on its face.

Tangela's been in UU since RBY, Gligar and Piloswine since GSC. Why should we stop using them for competitive UU play just because Nintendo brainfarted out a new evolution for them last April?

While we shouldn't go listing every pokemon as part of a tier, I feel that pokemon that used to be final evolutions should be discussed and "grandfathered in" as it were, considering we've already got analyses for them in Advance and the changes in DP, while significant, do little to change their playstyle.

Why should we ban Tangela from UU because Tangrowth exists in OU? It makes no sense to me. Tangela would be perfectly viable in a UU environment. As to different purpose: Unlike Tangrowth, it doesn't have 100 Base attack so its mostly relegated to a special attacker with good defense, a hard find. Apparently it is also 10 Base points faster than Tangrowth, which is enough to make it a competent Sunnybeamer as well.

What about Magneton? It was OU last gen only because it was THE counter to Skarmory. I'm still a little worried about it because with 70 Base speed and a viable Specs set (Tri Attack/TBolt/HP/Flash Cannon) it could slaughter a lot of things in UU. It still gets stopped mostly by the Nidos, and Quags/Gastrodon(for HP Ice versions), but it would be quite a force.

Finally, is anyone really going to ban Aipom and Lickitung from NU? I mean, come on people, why do that.

As to Chansey: Its Blissey lite. That's all you need to know.
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Because nintendo brainfarted out every pokemon we use, not just the ones you want to use to prove your point. As for Magneton I feel like that's a dead horse that needs no more beating.

Gligar is Gliscor lite. You are basically contradicting your whole stance by using that line to describe chansey.

Ness said:
There are plenty of Pokemon in UU with an ice move that will OHKO Gligar
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There are plenty of Pokemon in UU with moves that will OHKO MANY NFE's. that doesn't mean they should be allowed.

They either should or shouldn't. Once that's been established you can determine which ones are OP for UU.
 
Traditionally, UU is designed around two ideas..
1. Fun
2. Balance

The balance factor is important yes, but the #1 factor, fun, relies on UU being as different a metagame than OU. I wouldn't mind NFEs in UU, but I'm pretty sure other people would prefer a UU metagame that doesn't feel like "OU lite"
 
Dragontamer said:
Traditionally, UU is designed around two ideas..
1. Fun
2. Balance

The balance factor is important yes, but the #1 factor, fun, relies on UU being as different a metagame than OU. I wouldn't mind NFEs in UU, but I'm pretty sure other people would prefer a UU metagame that doesn't feel like "OU lite"
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LOOK OUT EVERYONE ITS SNOVER AND HIPPOPOTAS GET OUT EVERY...

Seriously, I don't see how including pokemon that were in UU as of last March makes UU "not fun" or "OU lite."

What I am saying is we make an exception for pokemon that previously were fully evolved. This leaves us with pokemon we already have old analyses for that simply need a revamp. Chansey and Rhydon (and Dusclops) are already known for BL, and the rest we all know were UU. Aside from a few changes, most of them are basically the same animal they were (Oh, except Yanma doesn't neccesarily suck anymore). The only NFE that I think might get bumped up to BL for the sheer OU-Lite factor is Piloswine, or Glgar since it can now Polish-Pass in addition to sweep, like a mini-Scizor.
 
I know I'd probably be in fits of laughter upon seeing a Hippopotas or Snover in UU...

Therefore I propose a ban for the sole fact they OHKO the opponent into a state of unrecoverable laughter!
 
Deck Knight said:
LOOK OUT EVERYONE ITS SNOVER AND HIPPOPOTAS GET OUT EVERY...

Seriously, I don't see how including pokemon that were in UU as of last March makes UU "not fun" or "OU lite."

What I am saying is we make an exception for pokemon that previously were fully evolved. This leaves us with pokemon we already have old analyses for that simply need a revamp. Chansey and Rhydon (and Dusclops) are already known for BL, and the rest we all know were UU. Aside from a few changes, most of them are basically the same animal they were (Oh, except Yanma doesn't neccesarily suck anymore). The only NFE that I think might get bumped up to BL for the sheer OU-Lite factor is Piloswine, or Glgar since it can now Polish-Pass in addition to sweep, like a mini-Scizor.
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I don't follow your logic. The new NFEs are okay because we used them before D/P? Where does that leave the old NFEs that can do things in UU like Kadabra and Haunter?

Also, the fact those pokemon were in UU before D/P doesn't mean anything whatsoever. The standard metagame has changed, and so will the UU metagame. Gliscor is OU, and as such Gligar would ruin the aspect of UU that makes it a distinctly different metagame from the standard one.
 
The whole "distinctly different metagame" thing is total garbage, are you going to ban Gastrodon because it plays like Swampert?

Kadabra, Haunter, and Chansey are simply too powerful for UU, the latter two especially, but the rest of NFEs aren't unbalanced. A lot of them don't even play the same (Shelgon is way more bulky than Salamence, and Tangela has crappy attack while relying on its good special attack) and others aren't even that good (Pupitar, Shelgon.)

A case can be made for Gligar since it can not only Baton Pass Rock Polish and Swords Dance, but also go defensive with Roost/Stealth Rock/etc. Sneasel is up for debate as well, but banning all the other NFEs just because they have OU "big brothers" is silly.
 
Forsety said:
I know I'd probably be in fits of laughter upon seeing a Hippopotas or Snover in UU...
Click to expand...

Hippopotas wouldn't be *that* bad of a tank in UU. It can achieve 340 HP and 280 defense, so with Slack Off it could sponge physical hits decently. I wouldn't pick it if it wasn't for Sandstorm, though. And Snover would be...a worse form of Abomasnow. Which isn't particularly threatening in the first place.

Is there an official statement out on whether NFE Pokemon are allowed in UU or not? It's pointless arguing about it if the rule is already set.
 
Snover in UU changes everything. With permanent hail, Specs/Scarf Glaceon _WILL_ rape teams. So yeah, we'll need some NFE talks before we can really continue a Glaceon argument.
 
I realise I've said this before but Clefable really wants its fat pink arse kicking to BL, otherwise it could really centralise the UU metagme. Since the addition of Wonder Gaurd the only way of countering it is to always pack one of the Hitmon's or Primeape, although if its set up one or two cosmic powers even that is not a gaurantee.
 
I realise I've said this before but Clefable really wants its fat pink arse kicking to BL, otherwise it could really centralise the UU metagme. Since the addition of Wonder Gaurd the only way of countering it is to always pack one of the Hitmon's or Primeape, although if its set up one or two cosmic powers even that is not a gaurantee.
Click to expand...

Phazers do exist in UU, don't they? I mean, Walrein has roar, yawn and encore, and any one of those can stop the cosmic powers. Then Lapras has perish song to force you out entirely.
 
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