Steel have been mostly offensive for some time now, but I do agree that the balanced build is still viable. I haven't seen Ferrothorn on steel for a while
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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
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Steel teams have taken a more offensive approach, credit to the famous all falls down Ho steel team! As one of the only balanced steel players left, I feel and Hope it rises. (It's still good I promise)
Not to discredit AFD, but as someone who started playing mono late XY, I was exposed more to PSM HO team. I think what differs on these teams is the scarfer/special attacker with some teams using zone to help vs water, while others use scarf rachi or scarf empoleon
BlackJak
formerly Balanced Break
Zaaaam these stats though.
Not really a surprise, since everyone and their mother runs Hyper Offensive Sample teamed steel. But like the people above me said, Balanced Steel would be a nice change of pace in the metagame. I was also pretty surprised that water was high on usage, and somehow Ground and Dark, especially dark with access to Hoopa, isn't higher than Bug. The good thing about bug as some people labeled it to be mediocre after that long Genesect ban it actually seems well, and new teams are being developed with it. And although Grass isn't really favorable in the metagame, I'm still surprised how it beat Ghost in terms of lower tier types. Nevertheless, hope stats are a little bit different this month though.
Not really a surprise, since everyone and their mother runs Hyper Offensive Sample teamed steel. But like the people above me said, Balanced Steel would be a nice change of pace in the metagame. I was also pretty surprised that water was high on usage, and somehow Ground and Dark, especially dark with access to Hoopa, isn't higher than Bug. The good thing about bug as some people labeled it to be mediocre after that long Genesect ban it actually seems well, and new teams are being developed with it. And although Grass isn't really favorable in the metagame, I'm still surprised how it beat Ghost in terms of lower tier types. Nevertheless, hope stats are a little bit different this month though.
TheAce22
Banned deucer.
So just my opinion on the usage stats:
Steel has risen a lot since last month with HO steel becoming a definite prominent force on the ladder. Definitely a nice team to use when your'e not sure what else to use since it can have a decent match up against most things assuming you play it right.
Fighting also dropped a bit in usage, not a whole 1% but did drop below Steel and Water, probably because the constant rising of popularity of physic which will probably start seeing more usage with aegi banned. (ALAS, PSYCHIC WENT OVER FLYING)
Fire also decreased a bit after that big rise in popularity from December to Janruary tilting to 4% now, although it might have something to do with LTLC as well :p.
Anyways I'm excited for next month when the March Stats are going to be realeased to see how the Aegi ban has affected the meta.
Steel has risen a lot since last month with HO steel becoming a definite prominent force on the ladder. Definitely a nice team to use when your'e not sure what else to use since it can have a decent match up against most things assuming you play it right.
Fighting also dropped a bit in usage, not a whole 1% but did drop below Steel and Water, probably because the constant rising of popularity of physic which will probably start seeing more usage with aegi banned. (ALAS, PSYCHIC WENT OVER FLYING)
Fire also decreased a bit after that big rise in popularity from December to Janruary tilting to 4% now, although it might have something to do with LTLC as well :p.
Anyways I'm excited for next month when the March Stats are going to be realeased to see how the Aegi ban has affected the meta.
The Aegi ban really won't effect things a terrible amount. I'd say for the first month after the ban, Ghost's usage is actually going to spike a slight amount as people will be trying to figure out the new archetype to the type (as it is currently the exact team of Gengar / Aegi / Mega-Sab / Chandelure / Golurk / Jellicent over 60% of the time). After this initial period of trial, I'd imagine, unless someone stumbles across some great innovation to the type, it'll drop right about on level with Ice and Rock, with Doublade taking over Aegi's slot.
I noticed psychic above flying i wonder if this has to do with how good psychic wallbreaking core is verse the standard use of balanced flying. Also noticed the drop of fight to ace. Its interesting that its still up that with psy and flying right at the top. Mega gallade useage probably adds to that bc u can tailors its sets to really destroys both of those teams
Sakis
Banned deucer.
I noticed that now Mega-Gyarados is more used that Mega-Charizard Y, i guess this happened because Psychic's increased usage. I would like to see the Thundurus-I used more along with Gyarados , as i think it is a really good parnter as it can punch holes to the opposing teams, it can speed cripple faster threats allowing Mega-Gyarados an easier sweep and in general, it has a lot of potential depending on the moveset. Nasty plot Thundurus-I in particular with Thunder Wave - Nasty Plot - Thunderbolt - Hp Ice it can provide Flying with an immidiate way of breaking balanced types such as Psychic (Mew in particularly) but at the same time it allows you to keep that priority T-Wave which is really useful.
Seo.
Guest
people use mega gyarados more then mega charizard because it takes less to stealth rock plus it has a rock resistance, but ya u have a point, it probably raised in usage since psychic increase in usage.
Nitpick: Mega Gyara doesn't resist rock, it is neutral. I see your point though
Seo.
Guest
ya my bad, neutral XP
When I was making my HO Flying, I had in mind to break through as many types as I can given the wide offensive selection that the Flying type had to offer. I turned to Mega Gyarados because 1.) the Psychic MU becomes much easier, and 2.) Mega Gyarados worked better with Landorus-I to sweep through Steel, particularly HO Steel. Mega Charizard Y is by no means a "lighter" threat than Mega Gyarados versus Steel, but Mega Charizard Y is prone SR, and on top of that, it can be threatened with Bisharp's Sucker Punch & Scarf Magnezone. If rocks are up and either Scizor or Doublade has snagged a Swords Dance, Mega Charizard (assuming 0/4) is dead weight. Mega Gyarados resists all priority from standard HO Steel, has a critical typing that allows it to set up on Bisharp, Scizor, & Doublade, AND can't be revenged by Magnezone after +1. All of this on top of Mega Gyarados' ability to break through Psychic and it was crystal clear to me why Mega Gyarados was the better choice.
Essentially, Mega Gyarados is an immediate answer to the dominating types in the current metagame. It would only be natural for this shift to happen as those types gained more of a following in the ladder.
Essentially, Mega Gyarados is an immediate answer to the dominating types in the current metagame. It would only be natural for this shift to happen as those types gained more of a following in the ladder.
The voting stage for the Hoopa-Unbound suspect has ended. Thanks to everyone who participated in the suspect!
Monotype requires a 60% majority to implement a change via suspect test. Thus, with only 50% of the voters supporting a ban, Hoopa-Unbound will NOT be banned from Monotype.
You may view the votes here.
Feel free to discuss the suspect test results here.
Monotype requires a 60% majority to implement a change via suspect test. Thus, with only 50% of the voters supporting a ban, Hoopa-Unbound will NOT be banned from Monotype.
You may view the votes here.
Feel free to discuss the suspect test results here.
As someone that actually enjoys the use of balance orientated teams, I'm actually quite pleased with this outcome.
I'm very curious to see what types/mons will rise in usage bar obvious things like Bisharp on [offensive] Steel to combat yet another 10+% usage of the type for an unknown amount of months. It would be neat to see another rise of Bugs, but with the loss of Genesect to aid against Flying and Ground, I doubt that it'll take off too much. Maybe it's time that we see some cool threats such as Crawdaunt on Water or a higher use of Hydreigon on Dragon to try and ct the type
I'm very curious to see what types/mons will rise in usage bar obvious things like Bisharp on [offensive] Steel to combat yet another 10+% usage of the type for an unknown amount of months. It would be neat to see another rise of Bugs, but with the loss of Genesect to aid against Flying and Ground, I doubt that it'll take off too much. Maybe it's time that we see some cool threats such as Crawdaunt on Water or a higher use of Hydreigon on Dragon to try and ct the type
Banning Aegislash is the right thing to do, yes it destroys ghost, but so did banning Mega Charizard X from fire. Aegislash should of been banned then. If you are making a rule that hurt some types horribly, there should not be any exception no matter the argument. Its great that the council has finally realised this mistake and have fixed it. And with this, maybe the argument of type only bans will come back if everyone is still mad about this a month later. But for now its a step forward that shows the council actually slightly know what they are doing.
TheAce22
Banned deucer.
Mega Charizard X being banned didn't ruin fire, it wasn't even the main mega at the time, Y was because it could get up sun.
Only few people used Zard X on fire, Zard Y was more useful since it offered a viable sun setter, which again is really useful on fire. Zard-X was great though, i think someone even peaked the ladder using Zard-X fire. edit: sniped by ace
Even though i was really vocal how ghost got ”destroyed” by the Aegislash ban i have to admit that i have changed my mind since. Obviously ghost is a lot worse than it was before, but its not that bad if im being honest. I have used ghost without Aegislash in Official Tours and other random tours with decent success. Its seriously not that bad. Mega-Sableye can win games alone and all you have to do is take advantage of the immunity cores that ghost offers. If you want to use ghost effectively you have to change your image of it. Its not that fun balance oriented type that it was before, Its very defensive nowadays. With all that being said i don’t think its better than Fairy or Poison, but its still better than the low tier types such as Ice, Electric, Grass and Rock.
Im going to drop here the team i have been using in OT’s. It’s basicly a little bit modified and updated version of Wyn ’s ghost RMT
(http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-ghost-immune-core-challenge-35.3553479/ go drop a like :]). Its really defensive and passive, which i admit suits my playstyle well.
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
Shedinja @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- Shadow Sneak
Chandelure (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Trick
- Energy Ball
Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Acid Armor
- Recover
- Toxic
Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dynamic Punch
- Stealth Rock
Sableye (M) @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 244 HP / 208 Def / 36 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Dark Pulse
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
Shedinja @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- Shadow Sneak
Chandelure (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Trick
- Energy Ball
Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Acid Armor
- Recover
- Toxic
Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dynamic Punch
- Stealth Rock
Sableye (M) @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 244 HP / 208 Def / 36 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Dark Pulse
Just give it a go, if you feel like Ghost is completely garbage or just want to see how ghost works now. Its not going to be great in ladder since its filled with psychic teams that have Hoopa-U and Dark teams but i guess u can try it there too.
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Just commenting on the Mega Gengar thing: Banning Perish Trap would be a complex ban, which would be a step in the wrong direction. If we have to implement a complex ban just so 1 pokemon can be unbanned, then it's not worth it to unban that pokemon.
Okay first off fix your post because it took me a while to figure it out. Mega Gengar is absolutely ridiculous, no, I know regular Gengar hits harder, but are you even aware of how dangerous Shadow Tag is? And that, coming from a Pokemon with 130 base speed? The only reason monotype didn't do anything with Shadow tag is because its limited to ONE type, and you have better options over it typewise. Now look at Mega Gengar, it turns Poison vs Psychic from a disadvamtage to a huge advantage. You're literally switching into Slowbro and getting kills, you're switching into Lati@s, Mew, Jirachi (unless scarf) and getting kills. Same thing applies for Ghosts. If you're so paranoid about fixing a type, why not help Ice or Grass or Rock? They need way more than Poison (which is underrated) or Ghost (drop Aegislash butthurt plz). Another hilarious thing I saw is talking about Zekrom. This is exactly like Kyurem-W, "Hey let's make a shitty type less shitty by introducing a broken AF mon". That's how ridiculous you sound right now. I'm sorry but if you're unsure of posting, please talk in the Monotype PS room for opinions and then trying out here. Thanks
e: he deleted kek
e: he deleted kek
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Sorry, you implying Aegislash on ghost is broken here? Because quite honestly I don't see it being comparable to Kyu-W on ice nor Mega-Gengar on poison. Just my thoughts.
You misread entirely, I never said Aegislash is broken, I said Mega Gengar is rofl.
The untouched Psychic cores are probably the strongest in the post Hoopa-U Suspect metagame. I'm talking about the two cores Slowbro / Mew and Mega Gardevoir / Victini / Hoopa-U (On a side note, Mega-Medicham is also incredibly powerful in the offensive core). These cores happen to support each other very well, and also receive amazing support from flex Pokemon like Jirachi, Latias, and Latios.
I want to discuss these two cores from a purely defensive point of view (mainly because I'm verbose and this was way too long already).
First, the defensive core of Slowbro / Mew is incredibly difficult to break. Slowbro is one of the premier physical walls across all types. Slowbro's biggest weaknesses are super effective moves primarily coming from special attackers or set up sweepers. This is where Mew is a beautiful complement to Slowbro. Mew eats up special attacks with absolutely no problem. Mew can switch into most STAB neutral special attacks to deflect off of Slowbro. Some slower physically based sweepers can eat a crippling Will-o-Wisp from Mew. These two also have incredible support options, boasting very reliable recovery and status. Mew can further set rocks, Defog, Taunt, and even Heal Bell.
To go further, the offensive core still provides defensive utility. All three of Mega Gardevoir, Victini, and Hoopa-U have respectable defenses in some way. Mega Gardevoir and Hoopa-U have phenomenal Special Defense, and Victini shares the 100/100/100 defenses that Mew has. These three Pokemon carry key resistances to Psychic weaknesses. With naturally good base defenses, the offensive core is seriously supporting the already formidable Slowbro / Mew core.
If we consider potentially having specially defensive Jirachi, Assault Vest Meloetta, or even just the resistances Latias and Latios bring in our flex spot, the team is melding together very nicely.
The core only has a few weaknesses. Teams running Mega Gyarados threaten sweeping completely. Teams that have both Volcarona and Mega Scizor put enough pressure on Victini to threaten one of them will sweep, which non-Mega Scizor teams fail to do. The HO Steel pressures the team hard enough for one of the potential sweeps to succeed. It is nevertheless possible to play around these problems with options such as Colbur Berry, Trace Gardevoir, Will-o-Wisp Mew, and others.
To cut this short, I'll briefly note how ridiculous the offensive core is in the offensive sense. Wallbreaker Mega Gardevoir, Scarf V-create from Victini, and Band/Specs/LO Hoopa-U will rip huge holes through every team. Slightly off topic, but this is especially true of Specs Hoopa-U, which even the OU tier is currently struggling with.
What can be done about these Psychic cores? After the Hoopa-U suspect, I'm not sure where to look next, beyond perhaps Mew, which notably doesn't address the problems with the offensiev core. I would find it difficult to target Mega Gardevoir or Victini to suspect if Hoopa-U's suspect ended in a no ban vote. Slowbro is also far from banworthy in my opinion, as it is simply tremendously supported by a team of specially defensive Pokemon. Nevertheless I would feel very uncomfortable if we do not at least scrutinize this type and its cores.
I want to discuss these two cores from a purely defensive point of view (mainly because I'm verbose and this was way too long already).
First, the defensive core of Slowbro / Mew is incredibly difficult to break. Slowbro is one of the premier physical walls across all types. Slowbro's biggest weaknesses are super effective moves primarily coming from special attackers or set up sweepers. This is where Mew is a beautiful complement to Slowbro. Mew eats up special attacks with absolutely no problem. Mew can switch into most STAB neutral special attacks to deflect off of Slowbro. Some slower physically based sweepers can eat a crippling Will-o-Wisp from Mew. These two also have incredible support options, boasting very reliable recovery and status. Mew can further set rocks, Defog, Taunt, and even Heal Bell.
To go further, the offensive core still provides defensive utility. All three of Mega Gardevoir, Victini, and Hoopa-U have respectable defenses in some way. Mega Gardevoir and Hoopa-U have phenomenal Special Defense, and Victini shares the 100/100/100 defenses that Mew has. These three Pokemon carry key resistances to Psychic weaknesses. With naturally good base defenses, the offensive core is seriously supporting the already formidable Slowbro / Mew core.
If we consider potentially having specially defensive Jirachi, Assault Vest Meloetta, or even just the resistances Latias and Latios bring in our flex spot, the team is melding together very nicely.
The core only has a few weaknesses. Teams running Mega Gyarados threaten sweeping completely. Teams that have both Volcarona and Mega Scizor put enough pressure on Victini to threaten one of them will sweep, which non-Mega Scizor teams fail to do. The HO Steel pressures the team hard enough for one of the potential sweeps to succeed. It is nevertheless possible to play around these problems with options such as Colbur Berry, Trace Gardevoir, Will-o-Wisp Mew, and others.
To cut this short, I'll briefly note how ridiculous the offensive core is in the offensive sense. Wallbreaker Mega Gardevoir, Scarf V-create from Victini, and Band/Specs/LO Hoopa-U will rip huge holes through every team. Slightly off topic, but this is especially true of Specs Hoopa-U, which even the OU tier is currently struggling with.
What can be done about these Psychic cores? After the Hoopa-U suspect, I'm not sure where to look next, beyond perhaps Mew, which notably doesn't address the problems with the offensiev core. I would find it difficult to target Mega Gardevoir or Victini to suspect if Hoopa-U's suspect ended in a no ban vote. Slowbro is also far from banworthy in my opinion, as it is simply tremendously supported by a team of specially defensive Pokemon. Nevertheless I would feel very uncomfortable if we do not at least scrutinize this type and its cores.
I'll be completely honest, I've been kinda unsure about the direction the metagame is going. I believe it was Acast that said not to long back, "Higher used types are being used more, and lesser used types are being used even less." I feel with the recent Aegislash ban, for Ghost at least this will be more so drastic, and it's beginning to become more evident. Granted, there's reasons as to why a lot of these types are used so less, its because they typically have very strong weaknesses (ones that are prominent in the current metagame) that cause them to typically lose a lot more than they will will, and as what EienSeiryuu was saying, types like Psychic are near fullproof if used right.
I was actually talking to scpinion 1 day just debating about the recent ban, and there's 1 thing in particular that really struck me from our discussion. There used to be a philosophy we had that stated that we'll try our best to make every type at least usable. I noticed it was removed, and during our talk he talked about the integrity of Ghost as if it didn't matter at all. What frustrated me most was that this was a type that was highly doable to ladder with, as numerous people had great success on the ladder (granted it was difficult I could imagine, but very doable). He did mention UU Monotype being a place where these lower used types can thrive, but, its not an Official Metagame, its just a Monotype community-driven one. Yea its fun, but when are you really gonna play this metagame competitively? There's not gonna be a ladder for it, and there will probably be much less tours for it than with the main Monotype Metagame.
The point I want to drive home is, why can't we try to make it so that these types can at least be doable in the current metagame? I'm 9.99 times sure out of 10, people do have bias towards their favorite types, and will often use that the most out of everything. Now I'm not saying we should repeat what we did ages ago unbanning Kyurem-W and Skymin, but why not put this into consideration when we're talking about potentially banning or unbanning a major element out of or into the meta? For example, the problem with Psychic going on right now mentioned above, Ghost could actually flourish to balance that out a bit, and it itself would have more usage. But with the Aegislash ban, its near impossible to ladder with it and do "good." Now you could compare Ghost with Ice in the fact that Scizor completely wrecks it. As mentioned in the OP, even with Scizor banned, Ice would still not do all that good, and Steel would still have a good chance to wreck it, while we nerf a non-broken type. It in the end all depends on with what we were to gain, and what we were to lose. Ghost was by no means broken, and Aegislash alone wasn't, as we know the reason it was originally was banned on Steel was because of the broken Immunity Core it formed. When Aegislash was banned from Ghost now, they lost a key defensive pivot, and one of few Physical/Mixed Attackers, and there isn't really anything that can full proof replace it, and the type's now plummeted in viability.
Tl;Dr I think next time before we make a major decision that could affect the metagame, we put ALL 18 types into consideration. Each one should have the opportunity to be at least usable, and be able to have a chance in the competitive metagame.
I was actually talking to scpinion 1 day just debating about the recent ban, and there's 1 thing in particular that really struck me from our discussion. There used to be a philosophy we had that stated that we'll try our best to make every type at least usable. I noticed it was removed, and during our talk he talked about the integrity of Ghost as if it didn't matter at all. What frustrated me most was that this was a type that was highly doable to ladder with, as numerous people had great success on the ladder (granted it was difficult I could imagine, but very doable). He did mention UU Monotype being a place where these lower used types can thrive, but, its not an Official Metagame, its just a Monotype community-driven one. Yea its fun, but when are you really gonna play this metagame competitively? There's not gonna be a ladder for it, and there will probably be much less tours for it than with the main Monotype Metagame.
The point I want to drive home is, why can't we try to make it so that these types can at least be doable in the current metagame? I'm 9.99 times sure out of 10, people do have bias towards their favorite types, and will often use that the most out of everything. Now I'm not saying we should repeat what we did ages ago unbanning Kyurem-W and Skymin, but why not put this into consideration when we're talking about potentially banning or unbanning a major element out of or into the meta? For example, the problem with Psychic going on right now mentioned above, Ghost could actually flourish to balance that out a bit, and it itself would have more usage. But with the Aegislash ban, its near impossible to ladder with it and do "good." Now you could compare Ghost with Ice in the fact that Scizor completely wrecks it. As mentioned in the OP, even with Scizor banned, Ice would still not do all that good, and Steel would still have a good chance to wreck it, while we nerf a non-broken type. It in the end all depends on with what we were to gain, and what we were to lose. Ghost was by no means broken, and Aegislash alone wasn't, as we know the reason it was originally was banned on Steel was because of the broken Immunity Core it formed. When Aegislash was banned from Ghost now, they lost a key defensive pivot, and one of few Physical/Mixed Attackers, and there isn't really anything that can full proof replace it, and the type's now plummeted in viability.
Tl;Dr I think next time before we make a major decision that could affect the metagame, we put ALL 18 types into consideration. Each one should have the opportunity to be at least usable, and be able to have a chance in the competitive metagame.
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