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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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Cloyster does not deserve BL. Torkoal has fewer weaknesses, can stealth rocks, spikes, rapid spin and explosion (like Cloyster), has similar Physical defense and significantly better Sp. Defense... and Torkoal is the premier UU spinner.
For crying out loud, Specs Glaceon Blizzard can 2-hit KO Cloyster, and it fricken 4x resists that stuff. And thats when Cloyster has 252 EVs in HP.
Wow, that's an incredibly naive thing to say. Firstly Snorlax tends to destroy all special threats that challenge Floatzel, and a free Psuedo-Curse from Bulk Up is always appreciated, but that's an example of a great recipient, and any well made squad will have one of these. Weavile also works well, as you can BP out when challenged by Starmie, and use the boosted Pursuit to OHKO Starmie, regardless of a switch.
However, in a pinch and when challenged by a special threat, Floatzel could just as easily Baton Pass his Bulk Up's onto Blissey or something similar who would greatly appreciate the Defence boosts, just like any other non-Shedinja Pokemon.
To say that there are very few Pokemon who can benefit from Bulk Up whilst countering a special attacker is really shortsighted. And lets not forget that he doesn't even need to BP out. After two Bulk Ups, STAB Waterfall from 500 Attack wipes out a lot of the special attackers.
If you don't understand the set, read the analysis again. Jumpman has made an incredibly detailed explanation of how it works.
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I'm getting the feeling that you didn't even read the past page of discussion. Have you ever noticed that everyone else is at least defending their viewpoint starting from the uu tier? Yea, that's probably because that is what the topic is essentially about: sharpedo, floatzel, rampardos, and the whole thing about who is too good/not good enough for uu/bl.
Eh, I edited a few things in there afterwards. But anyways...Sharpedo really doesn't deserve BL. It's countered by quite a few things in UU as I've already stated, and even if you don't have a direct counter it's possible to revenge-kill it or defeat it with priority moves. It also has very few opportunities to switch in thanks to it's awful defenses.
Torkoal can't spike, actually. I do agree that Cloyster has a strong case for UU, though.
On Sp. Def tiers, Cloyster's max Sp. Def is 114.98, 115.98 if you include +nature.
For comparison, a 0/0 Hitmon(top|chan|lee) scores 115.73, practically the same as Cloyster's maximum.
Well, comparing to hitmonchan is a bit harsh though since its sp def is actually good.
But what I was trying to get across with the sp. def thing was that investing some sp def evs will make a big difference in damage intake. I used an example of a modest max sp. attack lanturn surfing cloyster. Surfing on a max hp, min sp. def cloyster did an average of 40%, but the same surf dropped to 33% with only an extra 100 sp def evs. I guess cloyster can last longer against those kinds of sp. attackers (obviously not lanturn) by sticking with that kind of spread.
But what I was trying to get across with the sp. def thing was that investing some sp def evs will make a big difference in damage intake. I used an example of a modest max sp. attack lanturn surfing cloyster. Surfing on a max hp, min sp. def cloyster did an average of 40%, but the same surf dropped to 33% with only an extra 100 sp def evs. I guess cloyster can last longer against those kinds of sp. attackers (obviously not lanturn) by sticking with that kind of spread.
Are you even paying attention to what YOU say?
My posts were in response to those two quotes, in which you were clearly misinformed by believeing that a) Sharpedo and Floatzel are similar pokemon b) Floatzel is easily hazed. Then since you were still ignorant on the subject, I attempted to explain, but if you'd like me to explain why Floatzel is BL, then here:
Physical UU walls won't be able to keep up with him once he starts Bulking up in their face, with Waterfall hitting Super Effective. Should his health drop too low, he can Baton Pass the 2/3 Bulk Ups that he would have acquired against Aggron/Golem and come back out later, or he can just kill them with Waterfall and expect a sweep of his own. Even at low health, he can function as a revenge killer with that 105 base attack/115 speed.
Okay, so now we know the standard walls can't really counter him. A Thunder Probopass might do, but that's why you Baton Pass to Sandslash/Gligar etc and rip him a new one. Wood Hammer Sudowoodo could hurt, but it doesn't OHKO after a Bulk Up, whilst boosted Waterfall makes him cry.
Poliwrath can have a go, but Taunt removes Hypnosis/Haze from his arsenal, whilst Floatzel Bulks Up in his face. He won't want too many Focus Punches though. Baton Pass when you're done and start sweeping.
The best way of countering him in OU is the use of faster special attackers who can OHKO (note: Alakazam, Sceptile, Jolteon). However, in UU he would be faster than every single Pokemon except Swellow, who is of course physical. So the best bet would be a specialised Choice Scarfer, but who's really gonna use Scarf Manectric?
So there ya have it. He's incredibly hard to stop in UU, as not too many Pokemon like the concept of boosted Waterfalls, and the ones that do can't do anything to stop him fro Baton Passing the boosts to a counter and attempting a sweep. That is why he is BL, whilst Sharpedo is not, so hopefully your question has been answered and we can drop this Floatzel business. Thank you.
EDIT: Agreeing that Cloyster should be UU. He's very predictable and easily countered by the likes of Blastoise who can Toxic him, Spin away his spikes and ware him down with Surf. Needs to watch out for Explosion though. There's nothing BL about Cloyster.
Okay, I'll compare to Torkoal.
Torkoal: 252 HP, 12 Def, 28 Sp. Def, 212 free EVs.
Bold (+ Def - Atk)
122.74 Defense Tier, 115.93 Sp. Def tier.
Cloyster: 252 HP, 252 Sp. Def,
Calm. (+ Sp. Def, - Atk)
122.76 Defense Tier, 115.93 Sp. Def tier.
Needless to say, if you're worried about actually surviving those Sp. Atks, Torkoal is much better.
Uh, genius, NOW you decide to talk about uu's. Before, you talked about a tier that nobody was talking about. You were supposed to explain how they were too good for uu, which you were failing to do so until now. Btw, I had other sentences after that quote about hazing floatzel, so you are now basing your posts off of a cut explanation between posts. And: you completely missed the fact that any grass can walk in on floatzel.
@dragon: torkoal, as mentioned earlier, can't spike though =[
Ah, I see. Floatzel and Sharpedo are really too different to be directly compared, though. Mainly due to Floatzel's Baton Passing capabilities, but it's also much faster and slightly more durable, if slightly weaker.
Hmm...I haven't played with it much either, but I don't really don't see how Probopass unbalances UU in any way. It's an effective wall and destroys some of the common fliers as well as offering decent support (Toxic, T-wave, Gravity, Sunny Day...no Rain Dance, though), but is beaten fairly easily by any strong offensive pokemon with a fighting or Ground (assuming no magnet rise) attack.
I'd think Probopass would be UU, simply because it can't really -do- damage without Explosion or a super-effective hit; most Pokemon with fairly decent Special Defense and HP are capable of setting up something (Probopass is slow, so it likely won't be able to Taunt in time, if it even has Taunt).
No chance at all, sure its defenses seem intimidating. I play with one in my main team and you won't believe how incredibly paranoid I have to be about even the slightest fighting/ground attack and be cautious of water attacks. Of course hes good against everything else but I'm sure you'd notice too Fighting/Water or Ground/Water gives great offensive coverage in general and is a headache from a defensive standpoint.
In terms of offense its not too terrible but a lack of special Rock STAB means its strongest STAB is Flash Cannon. But if it runs Thunder with that its nothing more than a sad excuse for a Magnezone and its only other option is Hidden Power and Earth Power. You can play with Gravity too but theres better users for that.
In fact only reasons I use it is because it screws over any Garchomp after Magnet Rise who tends to be a common switch in. Kills Skarmory, sets Stealth Rock, can paralyze, Specsmence sponge and has a awesome moustache.
A few people mentioned this earlier too, Cloyster's BL position seems awfully premature especially since the thing can't even get Stealth Rock and dies as horribly fast as Sharpedo on the special side and some pretty easy to exploit weaknesses.
Oh and while speaking about BL's there was one I've been meaning to bring up.
Claydol, trying it out lately the physical/special split seems to have horribly hurt it. Now Claydol doesn't actually have very good HP/defense but in Advance when the best physical combos were Ghost/Fighting, Fighting/Rock, Ground Rock Claydol could stop 2 out of those three dead. Nowadays Dark, Ice, Water, Grass, Bug, Ghost are all worries and quite taxing on the thing. Calm Mind is a really nice addition but with the lack of any real recovery and so many weaknesses...
Yes, they walk in while he Bulk Ups, then get absolutely demolished when he Baton Passes to Rapidash. You obviously don't get it, so just drop it ffs.
I always use Claydol in OU, and whilst he performs well in that tier, thanks to some key resistances and helpful support options, that doesn't neccesarily mean he'll be too good for UU so I see where you're coming from. I think he'd be a good addition actually. As it stands, the premier UU physical walls are weak to Earthquake and Focus Punch so Claydol could mix things up a little. He wouldn't exactly be an unbreakable physical wall either as Cacturne, Sharpedo, Absol, Banette, Carnivine, Crawdaunt, Iron Fist Hitmonchan, Kabutops, Kingler, DD Lapras, Octillery, Pinsir and Shiftry are all physical attackers that can get past Claydol quite easily.
I think we covered Cloyster for UU earlier. Basically my argument was:
The only things Cloyster got from DP were Skill Link (only useful with Icicle Spear and Spike Cannon, AKA way worse than Shell Armor), Ice Shard, Brine, and Avalanche (not even Waterfall yeesh).
On the other hand, now damn near everything can smack its craptastic SD, even things that before it could pretty much switch in on with impunity. Venomoth is probably the best example, but basically anything that now uses Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Earth Power, Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast/HP Fighting, Shadow Ball, or Sludge Bomb as their main STAB attack (or another option like Focus Blast/HP Fighting). On the physical side, now it has to deal with Close Combat and Stone Edge. Even though the punches are much weaker now, a lot of their users in UU also have Swords Dance or Bulk Up.
Sharpedo has next to nothing to warrant being BL. Anything it doesn't KO destroys it in return, it has loads of revenge killers, and it has at least one complete counter. A Life Orb version would make a pretty good late-game sweeper, but Sharpedo is hardly alone in that function.
The only things Cloyster got from DP were Skill Link (only useful with Icicle Spear and Spike Cannon, AKA way worse than Shell Armor), Ice Shard, Brine, and Avalanche (not even Waterfall yeesh).
On the other hand, now damn near everything can smack its craptastic SD, even things that before it could pretty much switch in on with impunity. Venomoth is probably the best example, but basically anything that now uses Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Earth Power, Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast/HP Fighting, Shadow Ball, or Sludge Bomb as their main STAB attack (or another option like Focus Blast/HP Fighting). On the physical side, now it has to deal with Close Combat and Stone Edge. Even though the punches are much weaker now, a lot of their users in UU also have Swords Dance or Bulk Up.
Sharpedo has next to nothing to warrant being BL. Anything it doesn't KO destroys it in return, it has loads of revenge killers, and it has at least one complete counter. A Life Orb version would make a pretty good late-game sweeper, but Sharpedo is hardly alone in that function.
Ok (BAN ME PLEASE), if you want to get very situational: lanturn shits on floatzel and on rapidash. For fucks sake, you are posting as if I never played pkmn before when that is ironically your situation, especially when you can't even write on topic, while I have been here ages ago. The sharpedo thing was originally more of a question for me, but you did nothing to answer but add situational shit.
And then Floatzel Baton Passes its Bulk-Up to Quagsire or Gastrodon instead, rendering Lanturn near-useless. That's the power of Baton Passing, and a a passed Bulk-up is extremely useful in UU.
Remember To Respect, Jebroni, there's even a song about it if you need some more study on the matter.
Another vote for giving Claydol a shot in UU ...
Has Jynx been decided yet ... I'm getting foregtful in my old age?
In previous battles I've been surprised how easily she was defeated ... of course I never play lower tiers without Banette but still ... what do others think? Does she still warrant BL status?
Has Jynx been decided yet ... I'm getting foregtful in my old age?
In previous battles I've been surprised how easily she was defeated ... of course I never play lower tiers without Banette but still ... what do others think? Does she still warrant BL status?
That's the explanation on the first page, anyways.
Anyways...I definitely think Claydol can be considered for UU. It still has the title of best spinner (By that, I mean it resists SR and is immune to both spikes plus it has Shadow Ball to hit ghosts, not that it's better in general than any other spinner). It'd probably be the unquestionable choice for Rapin Spinner if it was allowed in UU, since it functions as a decent (though nowhere near unbeatable) tank in UU. Hard to say...but many UU Pokemon can hit one of it's weaknesses, and it's defensive stats aren't higher than many other UU tanks, so it definitely deserves consideration.
Its basically known there's no decent UU Counter for the Lovely Kiss/Sub/CM/Ice Beam Jynx other than your 4x Ice resists. Even then if you replace Sub or even CM with Psychic its tough to deal with.
Although, with the advent of more priority moves, Facus Sash users that can KO back, and especially Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, Jynx is a lot harder to use. Jynx is still especially dangerous, though.
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