NOC Dragon Ball Z NOC - Day 4

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Letting our 8 targeting roles randomly run into Vegeta versus only 3 non-village roles run into Vegeta is a horrible option and anyone who thinks Vegeta shouldn't claim just to save villagers from targeting I'm pretty much going to hard accuse

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Vote Blazade


I hard accuse you of proposing anti-town strategies and stonewalling for no reason.
 
Also I'm suspicious as to why Jalmont and particularly Blazade are ignoring my list of roles earlier, which includes conditions under which roles ought to claim and which roles ought never to claim, he seems to be spending a lot of time talking about relatively minor stuff so I'm going to FoS Blazade for now.

I'm ignoring your list of roles because I have nothing to say about them. I only ever provide input on things I observe when I deem it necessary.
 
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Vote Jalmont


It is 100% necessary to figure out what roles we will tolerate claiming so that we can shut down the mafia trying to do dumb shit and then claiming 'oh but I wasn't clear because there was no consensus on who should claim and blah blah blah'. This is the most important thing to discuss right now.
 
Letting our 8 targeting roles randomly run into Vegeta versus only 3 non-village roles run into Vegeta is a horrible option and anyone who thinks Vegeta shouldn't claim just to save villagers from targeting I'm pretty much going to hard accuse

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Vote Blazade


I hard accuse you of proposing anti-town strategies and stonewalling for no reason.

BELIEVE ME, if I was scum, I would not be proposing something anti town from your perspective and instead be sucking your dick. This is like res all over again and I'm not getting lynched on your bullshit.

I think Vegeta can take a night depending on how they and others act, to be honest, and I think it should be up to them at the very least. You are right in that there is a lot of risk, but this is counterbalanced by the upside of a mafia dying versus town and the control Vegeta has over what roles he feels he'll be targeted with.
 
Do some math for me: Which is greater, 8/12 or 3/6.

Or just 8 or 3. And the 3 will never be on the same person.

While multiple village roles could die to Vegeta.

It is utter lunacy for Vegeta to risk half the village die by targeting him tonight (and yes this could in theory happen).
 
Again with respect to one person it makes less sense to talk about randomness and more sense to talk about context. Half the village targeting Vegeta is lunacy unless of course you are Vegeta which is clearly false.

there are 7 mafia roles that target, some multiple people, and 8 village roles that target. The village will not spread their actions as much, and they target from a bigger pool than the mafia does. More often than not this goes worse for them than us, and we still get the clear.
 
The mafia have Roleblocker/Framer, and will probably idle Transporter tbqh

Cell/Broly can't die in the night. The Androids target one person.

In other words there are three non-village roles with a real chance to die to Vegeta. There are eight village roles.
 
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Vote Jalmont


It is 100% necessary to figure out what roles we will tolerate claiming so that we can shut down the mafia trying to do dumb shit and then claiming 'oh but I wasn't clear because there was no consensus on who should claim and blah blah blah'. This is the most important thing to discuss right now.

I was going to vote to you but then I realized I didn't read Vegeta's role correctly.

Yeah, that role should claim lol.
 
The mafia have Roleblocker/Framer, and will probably idle Transporter tbqh

Cell/Broly can't die in the night. The Androids target one person.

In other words there are three non-village roles with a real chance to die to Vegeta. There are eight village roles.

OK I forgot those guys couldn't die in the night. The androids could spread and I think the transporter would only be deterred by the possibility of Vegeta but that's a fair point. It's more even handed than I thought
 
Okay I will ignore the most recent US votes, I need to talk about the US stuff before that first.

US what in gods name are you doing. Clears ARE USELESS IN NOC. This is not OC, cleans have no info, cleans are just as human as anyone else and know nothing more than any villager EVER. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT A CLEAN PERSON SAYS. Why? Because what you say is not judged based on your cleanness, you evaluate based on how much their argument holds up. You seem 100% set on playing this NOC like OC, fixated on creating a leader. Get it in you think skull, there is no benefit in doing it, Blazade's math made it clear, just as crossfire chance raises our better roles dying do too and I'd personally prefer not to waste it on vegeta especially so I don't have to watch you worship every single thing they say without consideration.

Also nice post about who can claim and who can't claim, cough I made one first cough. Your argument against me completely fucking ignored that I do not care whether mafia can or can't waste our claims, if we assure they die for wasting it, then we are trading every single one of the claims for a dead bad guy. If you can't see how rewarding that is, then I don't know what to fucking do here. Also you seem to be completely misunderstanding what a mafia is, because there is no way Framer ever makes people look like Broly, because Broly is Serial Killer not Mafia.

Also okay 3 bad guys target? Technically 2 because with hidden Vegeta why would they ever Roleblock. But on the other hand, why would village rand target most of it's roles? Only Cop, Watcher, Tracker and Doctor are viable roles to do anything without much info to go on early nights, Doctor is also only working against 2 kills mostly early so likely idle, so it's really just 3 roles on village in danger of vegeta. NOW we need to consider with vegeta outed we could spam other abilities. Escort and Jailer are not worth it, hurting our info roles just as likely if not more likely than preventing a kill, Doctor yeah sure he can spam. Jack of All and Vig would still save their shit till they have a good idea where to throw their shit. On the other hand it allows mafia to throw out roleblocks and Androids to try do kills too(Oh come on, they are gonna obviously try and imply to each other in the thread who they want dead) with far less risk. Again there is no clear benefit from the targeting freedom. Then you consider YOU MADE A LIST of likely not Vegetas for people to target, gg no re, you already greatly lowered the chance anyone will run into the Vegetaran anyways. Point is I still think the strict no claiming unless found a bad guy should apply and then we trade claims for dead mafias however it goes.

I'd however wish to know if Cell and Broly really survive the Vegeta encounter? I mean by definition I always though Grandma/Veteran deaths just happen. By the same logic, would a Doctor targeting the targeter save the targeter of the Vegeta? Not likely but good to know anyways.
 
I feel like we basically need to compare the benefit of our three information roles rand-targeting freely with the downside of the mafia also being able to freely rand-target in order to really decide if a Vegeta claim D1 makes sense. To me, I'd much rather allow the information roles to start narrowing things down, especially considering that I don't see huge downsides to allowing the mafia to rand-target as well. Vegeta also allows the Doctor to start throwing out protections at no cost which could help prevent a kill or two throughout the game.

I honestly don't see as much use in Mr. Buu claiming, as having a useless role cleaned doesn't really do us any good. All that claim seems to do is allow the mafia a better chance of hitting one of our better roles.

This is still all dependent on how mafia claiming works, but I can see the benefits in Vegeta claiming and don't really see them in Mr. Buu claiming.
 
If we say 'no one can claim or we lynch them' then we aren't trading claims for bads, we're just wasting our claims.

If we do allow claims, then the bads can waste them without getting lynched.

You have to pick one or the other. You can't argue against using the claims ever, that's foolish. However once we by consensus allow claims, then we don't get to trade them for bads necessarily. We have to use them properly, and that is our main advantage in this game (our large number of roles and ability to claim). Also cleans are absolutely huge in this game because as the game numbers dwindle, having a few cleaned, unkillable people becomes way more valuable. The mafia will start to feel massive pressure to waste kills on our BPV to off him or her, and if we get a 100% cleaned Vegeta I don't see how the village loses ever unless literally every other villager dies.

Have to think about the long term prospects of getting cleans who can't be killed here. Our best chances of doing that are right now. The mafia is way less likely to go to a 50/50 with a Vegeta now than later, and that guarantees not only a clean now but a clean at the end of the game. This is what you're all missing here. The late game prospects of having a 100% cleaned Vegeta are insane. The mafia literally can't touch him ever, and they can't do much to the cleaned BPV either.

The other two claims I'm ok with waiting on guilties for, as I mentioned in my post previously. I do think that JoaT should use his check tonight because odds are the game won't last that long with so many roles flying around, and the BG will be more useful when we know more. Vig ought to be idled unless you have a really strong read on someone (jumpluff pls confirm whether the JoaT will suicide if he shoots a townie or not).

So no, clears are not useless, they are good now and way better later. I don't want to miss out on our opportunity to send a confirmed villager to the endgame 100%, and probably two.

And if we do pressure the mafia into a 50/50 then thats probably even better tbh.

Mithril hit on the main point while I was typing this up: We gain more from our roles than the mafia gain from theirs. By a LOT. We need to empower all roles as much as possible because it benefits us disproportoinately, and don't give me that 'half the village roles should idle' shit LW, if Vegeta claims then the Escort, the BG, and Jailkeeper should ALL be targeting someone who they think is dirty/clean/likely to be killed respectively. No village role should be idling if Vegeta claims, that's mafia talk.

The Bulletproof I feel is a good idea to claim simply because of the late game potential. However if people feel that it's too useless and would rather the mafia try to rand it then ok, I can get on board with that. Vegeta should be 100% claiming though at the very least.
 
US stop twisting everything in your favour, the blatant disregard at what I'm actually saying and what you are making it out to be what I'm saying is appalling.

If we say 'no one can claim or we lynch them' then we aren't trading claims for bads, we're just wasting our claims.

If we do allow claims, then the bads can waste them without getting lynched.

I made it perfectly clear, and said it multiple times too, I want a middleground, no one claims unless they have a result which implicates someone as BAD, the end. At least for now, learning innocent or not exactly damning Watcher and Tracker results later can be useful. You are simply ignoring that MAFIA CAN'T WASTE THEM IF WE SET a rule, and if we set the rule EVERY USE OF THE CLAIMS WILL GET US A BAD(minus framer shit, FUCK YOU FRAMER). Why? Because A, info role finds a bad and claims or B, mafia ignores rules, tries wasting claim when underpressure solidifying the lynch and getting us a BAD.

Another thing to note is, just add the condition that Vegeta can claim if being lynched as well, you get your wish and we are more likely to pull out a mafia cc this way which according to you is beneficial. Same difference, Vegeta can't die, but we need not use the claim on him unless needed and stilll have him around as a clean. If we carefully restrict the use of claims, we will either trade them for bads early, or keep them for late and abuse the fuck out of it at LYLO.

And please, enlighten me what a clean person except hammer the vote, which really just means that in a 2v1 endgame you change the thing from p much a 33% to a 50%, which we kinda need to reach first, and even then the benefit is marginal at best. Tell me what the clean will be good for, come on actually arguments please, not fucking "it's good now and totally radical later DUDE". Convincing is not I'm right you wrong hear me roar, it's here is what I think, why I think it, show me why it's wrong. Please try to do that.
 
Vegeta living and unclaimed is essentially the same as a Doc doing their thing because Vegeta is protected and has more upside but less direction. Escort hitting town is always bad so they should make that call

I never proposed never claiming because in LYLO guess what, we get a bunch of confirmed town at the end of the game if the mafia haven't traded claims for deaths. We're either getting 4 dead mafia off them claiming or a bunch of confirmed town when we need it the most, on info roles no less

Info roles should have no problem firing freely even if Vegeta is up and the watcher and tracker will probably figure out who vegeta is anyway (especially if there's target claiming going on). If Vegeta wants to make the judgement call like he feels like he'll be investigated (for example if he's under suspicion) then HE can make the call to come out. Vegeta will have to come out sooner or later but I would like to try and get some value out of it at the very least. Vegeta is almost certainly going to be alive in endgame and I don't think we need to waste a claim or any of the potential stealth vegeta upside to make that happen. IN FACT, the only way realistic way vegeta dies is if he claims, gets counterclaimed, and loses the 50-50

I love how quickly this turned into you yelling the same thing over and over while at the same time asking for discussion on it.
 
LW you legit are saying never claim -> sometimes claim which basically just opens us to mafia wasting claims when we allow claims to be used. That is what I was saying and you know it.

Vegeta needs to claim because the odds are that he's going to kill a villager a night given how many targeting roles we have. I don't really care about the rest all that much because I trust the information roles to claim when they get a guilty, that's fine. I can get on board with that.

No, it shouldn't be up to Vegeta because if Vegeta is an idiot and gets 2-3 villagers killed for no reason before claiming then I will be very upset. This is a completely obvious choice.

LW can you be more clear on precisely what conditions you'd like to see each role claim under, or which roles ought to never claim? Or at least where you disagree with my list earlier.

As for clears in the lategame, if you really can't figure out that having 1-2 cleaned people lategame in an NOC who can't be killed by the mafia massively increases the odds the village will actually be able to seal the deal, then I don't know what to do for you. Think about the possible scenarios, the possible roles which are still alive, and it'll become obvious that the last few non-cleaned villagers will be essentially targeting mafia 100% at that point and we will force 50/50s simply by process of elimination if we have a few cleans who the mafia can't touch. It informs all of our roles which, as I mentioned, helps our roles a lot more than the mafias' (and we have a lot more than the non-villagers do to boot), and helps even more once process of elimination helps narrow down who could possibly be mafia from the perspective of the non-claimed, non-cleaned information roles.

If Vegeta gets counterclaimed (which as I said is less likely today than any other day for obvious reasons, the mafia isn't organized yet and might not even be able to talk to each other directly (jumpluff PLS CONFIRM)), then we get a mafia for Vegeta AT ABSOLUTE WORST. That seems like a pretty good trade to me, which mafia role will they part with? If the roleblocker dies then our reviver and jailkeeper can claim/target freely to pseudo clean themselves in the event they are getting mislynched, if the framer dies our information roles become empowered, if the Transporter dies then any concerns we had about Tracker/Watcher go away as well.

Plus Blazade remember we have a reviver. If we lynch Vegeta Day 1 we just revive him and lynch the counterclaim for free before our reviver gets randomly killed. It's sooooo good for us it's insane if that happens.

Normally if the reviver just revives someone who died it cleans that person, but that person gets killed ASAP afterwards. That can't happen with Vegeta (or to a lesser extent the BPV). In other words, in the absolute worst case scenario of Vegeta claiming, we get Vegeta cleaned and into the endgame and a dead mafia.

It's not 'yelling' it's me pointing out the flaws in counterarguments and/or agreeing to things that you or LW are saying, such as coming around to the idea that maybe the BPV claiming isn't as slam-dunk as originally thought.
 
It's yelling when you bold and italicize and font change.

We've got a reviver and while reviving vegeta revives someone eternal you're not getting more info out of it. It makes sense but when mafia roles start dying we may find another role worth reviving if we've got a doc and they don't have an RB.

But it's good to see your true motivation finally slip out. "If Vegeta is an idiot I'm gonna be mad". You can't take the risk because you don't believe other people are going to be able to play the game effectively. These people you want to clear, they're just as unkillable whether they're out or not.

Socially, if the Doc was going to hit Vegeta, then the mafia was probably going to kill him.

If the investigators were going to hit him, he Framer would probably want to frame him.

If Mafia want to avoid being NKed using their factional, they have to use Cell which makes Cell vulnerable to Tracking and Watching

Vegeta hard counters the Androids where Doc and RB can't

Roleblockers on either side are deterred but the mafia one is more deterred because of their smaller pool

A transporter feels unsafe targeting two people with vegeta in the game.
 
You are not pointing out flaws, you are ignoring parts of our arguments to spin it in your favour. I made my fucking claim rules clear, DO NOT CLAIM UNLESS YOU GOT RESULTS THAT IMPLICATE SOMEONE AS BAD, add in the exception of Vegeta claims(First you are like it's great if Vegeta gets counterclaimed, then you are like he should claim early because then it's more likely he'd get counterclaimed?). The end, we can agree to change these rules later in the game, but these are perfect for the early game. There is no reason to set complex whatifs for claiming in the mid-late game when those can be decided there and then based on the game state when the early game plan is no longer viable. The fact you keep repeating that mafia will come and waste our claims shows you are completely missing the point here.

Also again point was made, only 3 villagers get likely benefits of targeting nightly, on the other hand the pressure on the mafia is way greater for using anything under circumstances where they can hit Vegeta, which is why I really disliked you making a decent target list for them. Then there is the fact hidden Vegeta highly dissuades the Twins from trying to murder(especially if their individual targets even on failing a kill can cause one of them to die to Vegeta, confirmation please). Blazade also made a good point that by outing Vegeta we are trading one unkillable person for another essentially if doctor is allowed to target freely, so again the difference is minimal.

Also god, how dense are you, WE KNOW HOW LATE GAME WORKS WITH CLEANS. But we also pointed out, HEY, VEGETA LIVES TO LATE GAME ANYWAYS!!!! Not to mention that saved claims generate even more cleans or straight up 50/50s. What I'm waiting for is you telling me, why the fuck we need a clean now, besides you being stuck in the village needs a leader mindset.

I played plenty of small games with Vegeta roles, and them claiming is the minority, most of the time the meta is built around the risk of it. The pressure on the mafia side always remains greater in regards to the Veteran role, the most we need to risk reasonably is 3 1/17 rolls (assuming we lynch someone) on the other hand the bad cases for serial killer would be (assuming we lynch a mafia to give them the most favourable results) 7/17 (kill fails on 3 people, 4 are killable mafia and twins) while for mafia it's 5/15 (3 failures to kill, 2 twins killable). Twin I'm gonna assume they target the same person, is 5/16 where 1 time they instalose, and that's assuming they kill, they rolling 1/16 twice if they fail to kill on dying to Vegeta. Then there is the mafia roles, where Framer is the most reasonable one to be assumed used, simply because of the pay off if it works. Still one can assume mafia will just idle all of them, especially transporter which is the weakest to Track and Watch, not to mention double Vegeta chance, and the chances of doing something useful being limited, not to mention potentially harming like roleblocking Broly. In the end the numbers support us, simply because the gains of vegeta claiming early game are p much changing bad kill results to Same/OneLess but at the same time allowing unlimited use, and removed need of using Godfather for killing, which is huge in keeping their mole clean looking.
 
It's yelling when you bold and italicize and font change.

We've got a reviver and while reviving vegeta revives someone eternal you're not getting more info out of it. It makes sense but when mafia roles start dying we may find another role worth reviving if we've got a doc and they don't have an RB.

But it's good to see your true motivation finally slip out. "If Vegeta is an idiot I'm gonna be mad". You can't take the risk because you don't believe other people are going to be able to play the game effectively. These people you want to clear, they're just as unkillable whether they're out or not.

Socially, if the Doc was going to hit Vegeta, then the mafia was probably going to kill him.

If the investigators were going to hit him, he Framer would probably want to frame him.

If Mafia want to avoid being NKed using their factional, they have to use Cell which makes Cell vulnerable to Tracking and Watching

Vegeta hard counters the Androids where Doc and RB can't

Roleblockers on either side are deterred but the mafia one is more deterred because of their smaller pool

A transporter feels unsafe targeting two people with vegeta in the game.

I feel like the problem with this logic is that it assumes everybody in the game is going to think the same way. People interpret people's actions in very different ways in NOC, so just because you think somebody's play should result in obvious targets, we can't assume that it is going to.

It also assumes if Vegeta stays hidden that the other mafia roles will even be used (which in my opinion they wouldn't be). Instead, we'd have two kills happening (free to shoot since Broly / Cell are immune to NKs) and our three info roles targeting and just hoping they don't hit Vegeta. If they do, we probably just lose at that point. The mafia having Framer / Roleblocker / Transport idle seems like something they'd be happy to do if it meant none of the village roles were doing anything.

It just seems to me like we lost out on too much possible benefit by preventing our roles from doing anything (while simultaneously risking watcher / cop / tracker to a random target of Vegeta) by not having Vegeta claim.

I don't see any use in other claims personally (in fact, I think LWs idea of any other claim = mafia is probably solid here), but having Vegeta claim just makes sense to me.
 
I said specifically he's LESS likely to get counterclaimed, not more.

Also apparently you have no idea how late game works because you keep saying that cleaned villagers who are unkillable are 'worthless in an NOC'. Seemsgood.

Please target Vegeta tonight LW.
 
I feel like the problem with this logic is that it assumes everybody in the game is going to think the same way. People interpret people's actions in very different ways in NOC, so just because you think somebody's play should result in obvious targets, we can't assume that it is going to.

It also assumes if Vegeta stays hidden that the other mafia roles will even be used (which in my opinion they wouldn't be). Instead, we'd have two kills happening (free to shoot since Broly / Cell are immune to NKs) and our three info roles targeting and just hoping they don't hit Vegeta. If they do, we probably just lose at that point. The mafia having Framer / Roleblocker / Transport idle seems like something they'd be happy to do if it meant none of the village roles were doing anything.

It just seems to me like we lost out on too much possible benefit by preventing our roles from doing anything (while simultaneously risking watcher / cop / tracker to a random target of Vegeta) by not having Vegeta claim.

I don't see any use in other claims personally (in fact, I think LWs idea of any other claim = mafia is probably solid here), but having Vegeta claim just makes sense to me.

If you really think most of the mafia will idle (I don') then that is absolutely worth it as a deterrent. I'm not assuming people will think the same but mentioning lurking variables that affect the way roles think and noting that if a town is drawn to vegeta then a corresponding mafia also has reason to be.
 
Jack of all trades does not suicide upon a misfire
Claim rule I am keeping as I judged it with the obvious caveat I am going to judge it contextually, i.e. you can't just claim four things and have it count as four claims. It's always been an inherently contextual rule. It's clear MysticSoul didn't want angleshooting
NK immune roles do not die upon targeting Vegeta

I think those are all host questions. In future please try to compile them for me so I don't have to go through nine different tags upon waking up

I have the doctor, I'll be back later
 
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