Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[MANNAT]

I really don't think that Weavile is A+ mon. Don't get me wrong, Weavile is majot thread, however it has "Alakazam's syndrom", which means if it does not OHKO something it almost always die. No defensive utility, weakness to rocks and life orb recoil heavily limits it's potential. Also weavile wants like 5 or even 6 slots. It really wants ice shard to not get crushed by scarf lando, scarf chomp(very underrated set) and deal at least chip damage do Mega Alakazam and other fast megas. Low kinck is important to get rid of Tyranitar, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Heatran. Pursuits is nice to trap (you don't have to take rocks damage more than one time).

But as I said thing that hold it most is rocks weakness (yeah, not having magic guard sucks a lot). Weavile comes on rocks 3 times and takes 3 LO recoils and it's gone! Even if your weavile check is something as shaky as Klefki, or Specs Keldeo, or Ferrothorn you can deal with thiat if you play smart.

Summing everything up, Weavile is not most viable attacker in tier. Very good but there are things that holds it's back.

1.) Weavile actually does have quite a bit of defensive utility. Pursuit trapping Latios means that it can't just Draco and get a kill every time it comes in since you've trapped it, which is huge for offensive teams, and it can come in handy in scenarios where like lati is spamming Psyshock to try and catch the clef in the back. Sure Weavile is frail, but so was greninja and that managed to grace s rank while it was in the tier.

2.) Weavile frankly doesn't have 4MSS at all, considering that all the relevant low kick targets get styled on by band barring a couple. Banded icicle crash 2HKOs ttar, banded knock 2HKOs tran, and not to mention that crash 2HKOs clef, so the temptation to use pjab isn't even there.

3.) Sure a rocks weakness is deterring, but with the great hazard control options that offense has with; mega diancie, Latios, latias, etc., you can stop hazards from going up pretty easily. Not to mention that mons 4x weak to rocks in mega pinsir and zardx (4x weak pre mevo) were in s rank at on point shows that a rocks weakness shouldn't stop a mon from being a high rank.

4.) You can deal with any mon if you "play smart", I've fucking beaten tg 3 attacks Manaphy with Sableye talon balance that had cune as its mana counter lol, so this is a moot point lol.

5.) The word is major, take more than 5 seconds to proofread a post before posting it on the Internet, PLEASE.

 

[Seth_]

I know that I said I wouldn't post in this infernal thread, but this post triggered me.Jesus this post made me cringe

1.) Weavile actually does have quite a bit of defensive utility. Pursuit trapping Latios means that it can't just Draco and get a kill every time it comes in since you've trapped it, which is huge for offensive teams, and it can come in handy in scenarios where like lati is spamming Psyshock to try and catch the clef in the back. Sure Weavile is frail, but so was greninja and that managed to grace s rank while it was in the tier.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 222-264 (74.2 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What if latios stays in?
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 317-374 (112.8 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Very shaky defensive utility.

2.) Weavile frankly doesn't have 4MSS at all, considering that all the relevant low kick targets get styled on by band barring a couple. Banded icicle crash 2HKOs ttar, banded knock 2HKOs tran, and not to mention that crash 2HKOs clef, so the temptation to use pjab isn't even there.

Yeah, it's 2HKO Ttar and gets OHKO back. Flawless.

3.) Sure a rocks weakness is deterring, but with the great hazard control options that offense has with; mega diancie, Latios, latias, etc., you can stop hazards from going up pretty easily. Not to mention that mons 4x weak to rocks in mega pinsir and zardx (4x weak pre mevo) were in s rank at on point shows that a rocks weakness shouldn't stop a mon from being a high rank.

Yeah, and now Pinsir is A- and zard A. Diffrent metagame, diffrent mons (weavile is nothing like both of them). Irrelevant.

4.) You can deal with any mon if you "play smart", I've fucking beaten tg 3 attacks Manaphy with Sableye talon balance that had cune as its mana counter lol, so this is a moot point lol.

Such badass.

bludz edit: yeah no memes

 

[MANNAT]

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 222-264 (74.2 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What if latios stays in?
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 317-374 (112.8 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Very shaky defensive utility.

Yeah, it's 2HKO Ttar and gets OHKO back. Flawless.

Yeah, and now Pinsir is A- and zard A. Diffrent metagame, diffrent mons (weavile is nothing like both of them). Irrelevant.

bludz edit: yeah no memes

what Latios in their right mind would stay in on Weavile? Not to mention rocks+lo recoil from the mon you sac to get Weavile in. I also mentioned the nifty psychic immunity it gets, but fee free to skip that comment.

Tar is gonna be coming in on the switch in into Weavile to "check it" when you've revealed pursuit. Try and think with your head next time.

I like how you managed to gloss over my comment about hazard control and the point of the example was to show that a rocks weakness shouldn't stop something from being high ranked, not to mention that the metagame adapted around zardx and pinsir because of how good they used to be lmao.

 

[false]

all the relevant low kick targets get styled on by band barring a couple. Banded icicle crash 2HKOs ttar, banded knock 2HKOs tran, and not to mention that crash 2HKOs clef, so the temptation to use pjab isn't even there.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but Low Kick is used for its ability to OHKO certain Pokemon such as Heatran, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados along with a bunch of other stuff. Yes, CB Knock/Crash is able to 2HKO a lot of stuff, but that's assuming everything is having to switch into Weavile in the first place. What about in a 1v1 situation? Banded Knock isn't OHKOing Heatran from full is it? What about Tyranitar? Sounds like Low Kick might be pretty useful in some situations huh.. Weird...

4.) You can deal with any mon if you "play smart", I've fucking beaten tg 3 attacks Manaphy with Sableye talon balance that had cune as its mana counter lol, so this is a moot point lol.

I don't know if you're boasting or what, but your point is a 'moot point' if you make the assumption that your opponent in that scenario played badly (which it sounds like he did giving the matchup you explained). Also, try to refrain from using, what I'm assuming is an experience you've had once on the ladder, as a reason as to why someone's point is invalid. Unless you can cite a real example from a tour. I wouldn't go around making such incredibly bold statements.

Secondly, no, you absolutely cannot deal with any mon if you play smart. There are some teams that unfortunately will fold to a certain Pokemon. You can attempt to put yourself in a situation to lessen that Pokemon's effect. However, if your team is not prepared for a certain Pokemon, there are absolutely situations where you will fold to a Pokemon regardless of how smart you play (unless you luck a lot I guess)

I scrounged around for literally 3 seconds and found this game (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-70259) which I think does an ok job of showcasing my point I guess. Although I shouldn't need to give an example.

------------------------------------------------------------

So that this post isn't complete shit, I'll add a few discussion points as well.

I'm cool with this getting a rise to A. I think its a really good glue for a lot of bulky offenses either as a Rock setter or as a Scarfer. It's a reliable user of Healing Wish, which is rare to find good users of, and the fact that it's paired with stuff like Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir not only allows it to fully take advantage of how well it can grab momentum, but it also allows those Pokemon to play a bit more recklessly and freely knowing that they have a second chance at life if they need it, if 1 Mega Medicham wasn't threatening enough, how about 2? Other than that, it checks tons of popular threats such as Latios, Clefable, Mega Gardevoir etc. and is just a great mon rn. I just generally feel like a lot of the A- mons are a bit more 'niche' and less splashable and effective than Jirachi is currently, it seems to fit better in A imo.

I think I stated in my last VR post, or maybe I didn't I can't remember, but I feel like of the 3 grasses sitting in the B+ tier, Tangrowth is the best of the group. Whilst Amoonguss arguably performs the role that it performs about as well as it can, that doesn't make it better than the likes of Tangrowth which provides utility on a larger spectrum than Amoonguss is able to. Physically Defensive Tangrowth (I don't think Avest is anywhere near as good) is able to provide utility in checking such as large number Pokemon so reliably whilst also managing to be less passive than Amoonguss thanks to a better SpAtk as well as access to Knock Off. This additional utility is what sets Tangrowth apart, and I think if you're going to rise any of the 3, this is the one, although I don't have a problem if they all stayed in B+ either.

Agreeing with this too. Besides stating the obvious, I thought p2's replays showcased just how dextrous Alomomola is at dodging Focus Blasts and Dracos showing that it's a Pokemon that is well trained, so that should account for something too. Almomola is an unbelievably fat piece of shit that is impossible to kill and is easily as good if not better than some of the other defensive Pokemon such as Celebi, Togekiss that are sitting in the B rank right now.

 

[bludz]

Enough with the personal attacks (I just deleted a new incendiary post). Update coming soon so shut the hell up with this nonsense please. When someone is so totally off the mark maybe you should just ignore the hell out of their post instead of everyone correcting them and turning into one of these shitstorms good lord. This is why people dislike the vr thread just saying.

 

[bludz]

Yo. Update time. Sorry been busy guys so the rankings are a bit more out of wack than usual. This should help some.

Jirachi A- -> A
Zapdos C+ -> B-
Tangrowth B+ -> A-
Togekiss B -> B-
Mega Swampert B- -> C+
Kyurem C- -> C
Magneton C- -> C
Dugtrio C- -> C
Crawdaunt B- -> B

Discussion points:

Politoed & Kingdra B -> B-
Rain is an incredibly matchup dependent playstyle and doesn't see much usage in tour play. Fair to say these mons are not all that effective when compared to the likes of Slowking and other B rank mons.

Mega Latias A- -> B+
Yeah this thing has lost a fair amount of effectiveness. Been a little out of the loop myself so I don't have the most solid reasoning to explain here but if you play a fair amount you should be able to see why this is being nominated.

Azumarill A -> A-
Probably the most controversial discussion point of the bunch. Choice Band long being heralded as the best set is just not all that great right now. It has more common switch-ins these days with Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Mega Scizor all being popular. BD is quite possibly the better set at this point and isn't that immediately threatening until setting up.

Alomomola B- -> B
Seen a few tour games where this thing just puts in work. Fat waters can be annoying to take out, especially without the secondary weaknesses that a mon like Slowbro carries. Reliable recovery and Regen makes it a real bitch to wear down and just has absurd bulk. Passive as hell but it can wall quite well.

Crawdaunt B -> B+
Hype train. Very few switch-ins, and threatens quite a few pokemon on bulky offense. Also threatens stuff thats gained popularity like Scarf Lando. Destroys stall. CB is good.

also for the record

cb weavile sucks the dick. please stop using it as an argument point when it literally fits onto one stall archetype as a trapper and otherwise restricts the offensive capabilities of a high speed tier mon that can clean offensive teams when it is able to switch moves.

 

[SJCrew]

The biggest problem with Mega Latias right now is that it cannot do shit to CB Ttar without wasting moveslots. CBTar has surged in popularity on both ladder and in tour, and using a mega slot on something that has no answer to that is damning.

Azu is definitely losing out to defensive Grasses becoming way more popular, and it's not a guarantee that you can capitalize on the kill Azu gets from BD because you basically trade off all of its defensive utility and lose Azu in exchange for the ability to lure the defensive Grass. It doesn't pull enough weight on teams these days.

 

[Glue]

alomomola needs a rise to B rank while I don't really use alomomola on my teams since I'm starting to enjoy the more offensive playstyle these days, alomomola is such a pain in the ass and find it really hard to beat the fat fish, with electrics types facing a decline in usage and everyone running specs keldeo and weavile these days including it makes annoying cores with pokemon like heatran and amoonguss I agree with alomomola rising up a rank

if the mega latias nomination was done 2-3 months ago I would disagreed dropping to B+ rank however using it now just feels underwhelming as heck, first of all while I'm not sure if this a fair argument mega latias has the 4MSS now like it wants to run calm mind, ice beam, thunderbolt, surf, reflect type, roost, dragon pulse, thunder wave and maybe even more moves that it would like to run but it can't because of the 4MSS also like what SJCrew said Tyranitar being everywhere including pokemon like mega scizor, jirachi and clefable being everywhere it really messes up mega latias becoming very effective in ou metagame and B+ fits mega latias more imo

 

[false]

I spoke about Alo already like 5 seconds ago, but I'll touch on the other points too since they're up now :o

Yeah you can drop both of these. Kingdra is probably as good as, if not worse than, the likes of Hydreigon and Raikou which currently sit in B- rank, and Poli can't really be ranked above Kingdra seeming that it basically doesn't exist without it so yep. Also, if these drop, then you have to drop Kabutops too because otherwise they'd all be the same rank, which would make no sense because Kabutops is quite clearly a second rate Swift Swimmer and not at the same level as the likes of Kingdra.

I think perception of this will be skewed a bit here since B+ rank is where Hippowdon is, and for some reason most people seem to think Hippo is complete garbage, even though Hippo isn't bad. I'm 50/50 on this, but leaning towards drop because I feel Mega Latias is actually in a kinda similar situation to Hippowdon and I think it deserves the same rank. I think one thing that's worth mentioning here is the fact that Mega Latias is a super good mon, it's just annoyingly useless in some matchups, and is also relatively passive seeming that Dragon Pulse or BoltBeam coverage don't bother anything that has recovery unless you're hitting it super effectively. Like Hippowdon, it can be used to great effect in certain matchups when it can wall over half a team, and just have its way. However, there are also matchups where it's pretty useless (In Hippowdon's case its usually due to multiple powerful special attackers, or a number of super effective physical attackers) where the likes of Band Tyranitar can come in almost as it pleases and really force the hand of the Mega Latias user. I think passivity is the biggest issue here, when Mega Latias has a bad matchup it literally does close to 0. Defog sets are cool and pretty underrated, but even that set isn't A- alone, so I guess I'm leaning towards drop for now.

I've used BD Azu quite a lot recently and I've gotta say I think keeping it at A is fine. One of the things I think a lot of people miss when looking at Azumarill is just how much defensive utility it provides, especially when also packing a Sitrus Berry. Even if you're running a BD set, which is by far the best set right now, you often don't even need to get off a Belly Drum to have a positive effect. Sometimes even just the threat of Belly Drum is enough to cause your opponent to play a certain way. Azumarill is also a pretty good check to the likes of Keldeo, Mega Charizard X, Latios, and Weavile which are all massive threats to a large number of standard offense builds, and when you consider the best types of teams to fit Azumarill on now, they're ones that often appreciate having any Pokemon that can provide any semblance of defensive synergy. I think the days have gone where CB Azu is the best set, and I'm confident that BD is better, I also think Jolly is the best nature, and is well worthwhile for sniping Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, as well as also being able to check other Azumarill since you'll always attack first. Maybe it's just me looking at Azu in a positive light, but I feel its overall utility is just a little bit better than most of the offensive Pokemon in the A- rank, and I'm ok with keeping it in A.

I'm leaning towards yes on this, simply because it literally dismantles defensive cores, and is way better than the other offensive Pokemon in B. Honestly right now I think a lot of the B ranked offense mons are actually better than their placing, and Crawdaunt is one of them. Crawdaunt is inherently going to be a matchup dependent mon just because of how slow and frail it is, but I don't think that holds it back seeming that is has such an overwhelmingly strong matchup vs fatter teams. It's kinda like Mega Manectric in reverse I guess, although Mega Manectric is just a bit better and probably the best offensive mon in B+ imo.

Yo, but if Crawdaunt rises then Breloom and Dragonite should at least be discussed to rise as well in my opinion. I'm an avid Breloom lover, but oh my god so many teams are underprepped for it its insane. So many offenses have their Breloom switchin as the likes of Latios or Garchomp which both actually get obliterated by Bullet Seed (Latios literally dies to 4 Seeds + Mach after Rocks) and then Breloom literally wins. Breloom's access to Spore is actually insanely useful when you consider that it actually gives it a way easier time vs stuff like Clefable, Skarmory etc etc, which makes it that much harder to beat. Swords Dance is crazy strong, you OHKO stuff like Serperior and Mega Diancie at +2, and you can even 2HKO stuff like bulky Mega Scizor and Physically Defensive Skarmory. It's also amazing vs the ever common Sand archetypes, and is just generally way better than people give it credit for. Yeah it doesn't provide any defensive utility at all really, but it comfortably switches into Landorus I guess, and Crawdaunt has literally 0 defensive utility too, and that's getting discussed for a rise. Also tons of those ass stall teams are running no Grass type like this then Breloom literally pressures them so much and you win in like 3 seconds.

As far as Dragonite is concerned, I think it's shown how effective in WCoP since its literally styled on multiple people with Sub+Fly, and band is still stupidly good and way underrated. Bandnite's ability to support a breaker like Mega Charizard X is crazy since no one things twice about throwing in their Landorus/Heatran/whatever and then realising they're fucked when they take 50 from Outrage. Iron Tail OHKOs Clef, it has great priority in ExtremeSpeed, and a really useful ability in Multiscale. Breloom and Dragonite are both easily better than stuff like Mega Aero and Gyarados so please consider them for a rise too ;-;

 

[ceal]

cb weavile sucks the dick. please stop using it as an argument point when it literally fits onto one stall archetype as a trapper and otherwise restricts the offensive capabilities of a high speed tier mon that can clean offensive teams when it is able to switch moves.

Thank Christ someone finally said it.

Mega Latias is pretty deseving of dropping IMO, doesn't really beat trappers outside of Reflect Type and even then:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 222-262 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

If your opponent already shows Reflect Type then you can easily predict him to click it in the face of CB Tar and do over half with Edge. At that point it's just forced or has to roost on the dodge and from there any time Latias is trapped by Tar it becomes a lot of 50/50's whether to Reflect Type on the Pursuit or switch on the Edge.

Not to mention it wastes the mega slot on utility Latios can still provide (tho to a lesser extent obviously) all the while retaining the ability to nuke shit with Draco and lure things with coverage.

Azu can also drop, it's a really strong attacker and that's about it. Sure it in theory has a lot of defensive utility via its typing but the two main things its typing allows it to "beat", Keldeo and Weavile, are two things that it risks a ton by switching into (Keldeo can burn with Scald and Weavile can knock off Band both of which makes Azu considerably easier to handle.) Not to mention that metagame trends are largely against it.

Daunt can rise to B+, easily dismantles most cookie-cutter BO teams and can still pose a threat to offensive teams with Jet. Slightly worse than Nido or Kyurem IMO but still deserving of a rise.

Yo, but if Crawdaunt rises then Breloom and Dragonite should at least be discussed to rise as well in my opinion. I'm an avid Breloom lover, but oh my god so many teams are underprepped for it its insane. So many offenses have their Breloom switchin as the likes of Latios or Garchomp which both actually get obliterated by Bullet Seed (Latios literally dies to 4 Seeds + Mach after Rocks) and then Breloom literally wins. Breloom's access to Spore is actually insanely useful when you consider that it actually gives it a way easier time vs stuff like Clefable, Skarmory etc etc, which makes it that much harder to beat. Swords Dance is crazy strong, you OHKO stuff like Serperior and Mega Diancie at +2, and you can even 2HKO stuff like bulky Mega Scizor and Physically Defensive Skarmory. It's also amazing vs the ever common Sand archetypes, and is just generally way better than people give it credit for. Yeah it doesn't provide any defensive utility at all really, but it comfortably switches into Landorus I guess, and Crawdaunt has literally 0 defensive utility too, and that's getting discussed for a rise. Also tons of those ass stall teams are running no Grass type like this then Breloom literally pressures them so much and you win in like 3 seconds.

As far as Dragonite is concerned, I think it's shown how effective in WCoP since its literally styled on multiple people with Sub+Fly, and band is still stupidly good and way underrated. Bandnite's ability to support a breaker like Mega Charizard X is crazy since no one things twice about throwing in their Landorus/Heatran/whatever and then realising they're fucked when they take 50 from Outrage. Iron Tail OHKOs Clef, it has great priority in ExtremeSpeed, and a really useful ability in Multiscale. Breloom and Dragonite are both easily better than stuff like Mega Aero and Gyarados so please consider them for a rise too ;-;

Google "Amoonguss" and "Tangrowth" and get back to me on this one lol. Seriously tho, with two super viable counters running around that are pretty splashable on most archetypes I don't see a reason for Loom to rise. You mention it having a good matchup against sand and stall teams even though both of those archetypes commonly run the afroementioned counters to Breloom so ??? Yeah sure you can find examples of those kind of teams without real answers to Breloom but they're few and far between and definitely shouldn't be considered when talking about Loom.

As for Nite, I'm against this one too. I'll use band set since that's the one you refer to most of the time but IMO it's not nearly enough to warrant a rise. It's pretty easy to wear down via rocks and is pretty easy to check (LUL at people who use Lando as a dragon resist):

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 110-130 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 110-130 (32 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 165-194 (40.8 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 93-111 (27.8 - 33.2%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

There's also fairies which yeah you can use Iron Tail for but 75% accuracy ROFL. Not to mention its low speed and exploitable weaknesses means that it can be revenge killed by Lando, Weavile, Diancie, etc. Nite can't really afford to click Outrage cuz while it can wear shit down like Tran its easily Outrage is literally one of the worst moves to switch into (this can be remedied with DClaw but then you're losing on a ton of power which kinda goes against Nite's capabilities as a nuke/Dragonspam partner. It can easily pressure teams as easily as it itself can be pressured.

TL;DR Drop Latias, Drop Azu, Raise Daunt and keep Loom and Nite where they at.

 

[AM]

Poli + Kingdra: Down somewhere I brought up Politoed and Kingdra to bludz for the same reasons it's being advocated as a discussion point for dropping so not a whole lot to say. The viability of rain mons is kind of equal since they're pretty matchup based and the match ups are normally skewed not in favor of the rain user.

Azumarill: A> A- Azumarills benefits is massively overrated in Koiros post granted there's some aspects he's right about like Jolly BD Azu being a good set. Its defensive utility is not even that good, like you switch into these mons and Keldeo puts you in the position of a Scald burn and once that happens Azu is done, Weavile removes the item that makes it useful since an Azumarill switch in to keep Weavile in check means it's taking Knock Off, every Char-X team I see muscles through Azumarill through running EQ variants, Spikes, Azu isn't a Latios check, a Dragon switch in maybe, but most certainly not a means to handle Latios. While an offensive build may appreciate what Azumarill has to offer to kind of provide some relief to the points mentioned by Koiro, the influx of bulkier grasses is a problem with Azumarill and it's a pretty hit or miss mon. Its splashability and implementation on teams isn't as easy as a lot of the other As such as Garchomp and mons who are borderline A through teambuilding constraint like Lopunny. Having it above the likes of mons like M-Gross, Pinsir, Starmie, good mons doesn seem right either, which is the big take away for dropping it. Azumarill is way better on paper than in practice it should drop.

Breloom isn't that good Koiro. I feel like you just grabbed a replay with a stall team that had a bunch of problems to begin with disregarding the fact it's really easy to wear down and it hasn't really gotten that much better, still matchup like it's been for a bit.

Otherwise I agree with Dnite and Craw like you said.

Dnite, Craw B > B+

If there's anything I can defend about Loom it's the fact M-Aero isn't good and your comparison of Loom being better is right, however that's more in line with stuff should just drop before rising. Gyarados is actually a relatively good mon and while Seth proposed rising it to something crazy like A- last page, it's probably about as viable as Dragonite is. The bulky variants of Gyarados can be a menace to deal with, since a lot of the good revenge killers like Scarf Lando-T can't stomach a waterfall, hates if it's behind a sub, and once it gets going with moxie, it can snowball into something nasty.

If Gyarados doesn't rise for w/e reason it may be Gyarados and M-Gyarados should probably share the same rank. M-Gyarados kind of hates the bulky grass trend, you can't even argue the niche Bounce as a factor in its favor when it wants EQ for Rotom-W. I just don't feel like M-gyarados is that good anymore, granted its niche for beating up certain bulky squads so got to give it credit there.

M-Slowbro is still shit lol. There's other things in B and discussion slate that should move around but I'll keep it at that for now.

 

[tigers jaw]

CTC is a lord.

imagine if dnite has some sort of fire or fighting coverage, to hit those steel types? wouldn't that be great? or maybe even if there were pokemon that could support bandnite in wearing down those steels, or just appreciated nite wearing them down too? your calcs show nothing but the worst case scenario for dnite, as though a rock was using it. you could say that it's incredibly prediction-reliant, but really, how many teams feature 3+ steel types? one single correct prediction is all it takes for bandnite to pave the way to just click outrage at its will. bandnite is threatening as fuck to fat, basically forcing your opponent to guess correctly each time it comes in, a la banded terrakion. stop looking at the set in a vacuum, geez. espeed is a seriously good tool for cleaning offense coming from bandnite, hopefully you can see why. also wanna drop this in here that outside of bulky roost dance sets, multiscale is a terrible ability, really.

dnite's one of those pokemon that dropped off the radar for a while, and has been slept on. just because it isn't all over ladder doesn't mean it's not great, at all.

 

[ceal]

CTC is a lord.

imagine if dnite has some sort of fire or fighting coverage, to hit those steel types? wouldn't that be great? or maybe even if there were pokemon that could support bandnite in wearing down those steels, or just appreciated nite wearing them down too? your calcs show nothing but the worst case scenario for dnite, as though a rock was using it. you could say that it's incredibly prediction-reliant, but really, how many teams feature 3+ steel types? one single correct prediction is all it takes for bandnite to pave the way to just click outrage at its will. bandnite is threatening as fuck to fat, basically forcing your opponent to guess correctly each time it comes in, a la banded terrakion. stop looking at the set in a vacuum, geez. espeed is a seriously good tool for cleaning offense coming from bandnite, hopefully you can see why. also wanna drop this in here that outside of bulky roost dance sets, multiscale is a terrible ability, really.

dnite's one of those pokemon that dropped off the radar for a while, and has been slept on. just because it isn't all over ladder doesn't mean it's not great, at all.

Never was I implying that teams carried three steels, or that since it isn't seen much on the ladder it therefore isn't a great mon. Those calcs were meant to show how many steel types make it redundant to simply click Outrage. But I understand what you're saying. Maybe I'm not looking at it the right way. Instead of just looking at this mon in a vaccum, I'm gonna see how Dnite Compares to dragon types similar to it:

Latios: Provides defensive utility, can be awincon with CM, has a better speed tier, and can better utilize its larger movepool thnx to not relying on a Life Orb.

Charizard: Better Dragon Dancer with a better ability and can threaten a lot of the tier in just two moveslots.

Garchomp: provides excellent utility in Rocks and its Tank set, has a better typing and a better speed tier.

What Dnite has over these mons: Priority in ESpeed.

DNite offers next to nothing over these options. It's only real niche is ExtremeSpeed but quite a few mons common on offense can tank a hit and KO it with a super-effective attack:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 68-80 (28.2 - 33.1%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 107-127 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 154-182 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 153-180 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 196-231 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

All of these mons need to be considerably weakened to be swept by ESpeed (Thundy's the only one with a chance to be ohko'd but the role is heavily in its favor), which in turn shows how Nite's ONLY niche over other Dragons requires a fair bit of support to be fully taken advantage of. Latios and Zard and Chomp don't need nearly as much support at all to do what they do, and they bring so much more to the table than Nite.

I hope this brings a bit more in-depth and relatively smarter reasoning for why I'm opposed to Dragonite moving up. It takes a ton of support to function and doesn't bring enough to the table to differentiate itself from its competition. Keep Dragonite B.

 

[tigers jaw]

Comparing Dragonite to other dragons is like comparing Azu to Manaphy or Clef; what I mean by this is that you should compare Pokemon to other Pokemon not based on typing alone, but roles and how well they perform said roles. The nearest dragon to share a role with Bandnite is Chainchomp/SD 3 attacks Chomp, seeing as both are breakers. Bandnite has a hell of a lot more power than any Chomp set off the bat, and has arguably better coverage. Zard is a better dragon dancer, overall, but the two best sets that they both run are not alike, really. Dragonite likes bulky as shit roost/fly/dd/sub, as mentioned earlier by Koiro, as they also mentioned, this set put in serious work in WCoP (go ask for a replay, I can't remember which games but you will not be disappointed). Let's not forget that Zard is also a mega, unlike Dragonite, too.

Idk what you're getting at with the Espeed calcs? To say that a Pokemon needs its checks and counters weakened/eliminated before it can clean up is something that applies to literally every Pokemon out there, if not, it'd be incredibly broken (see: Luke, Kang, Mawile, etc. these are Pokemon which need very little and sometimes almost no support in order to clean win). It's already been established that Espeed isn't Dragonites only niche over other dragons (or physical breakers), and you'd understand this if you were to use its other sets or actually utilise Band to its fullest potential. I think that's all I've really got to say on Dragonite, I'll leave it to the ranking team.

What're people's thoughts about Hydreigon sitting in B-? I think it'd be more at home with the likes of Gastrodon, Volcarona, and Reuniclus. Specs is incredible, to quote obii from the WCoP dump thread:

Specs Hydreigon aka hoopa wannabe:

Hydreigon (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon

watch starmaster vs destiny device to see what this set does. special dark resists are hard to come by. its modest instead of timid cus modest pulse actually 2hkos everything that doesnt resist lol. timid pulse cant 2hko spdef talon or standard tran. i personally prefer timid to outpace neutral base 100s but it depends on the team i guess

starmaster vs. destiny device is here, for those who haven't seen it. Granted, dd's matchup against Specs Hydra isn't great, but the team's about as standard as standard gets right now. This thing puts in incredible work against standard FWG+Sciz balance. The most important factor in Hydra's efficacy is what obii mentioned: a serious lack in solid special dark resists, with every team only packing checks to Bisharp and Weavile, all of which crumble to Specs Hydra barring Clef should you not be able to predict it and 2HKO it on the switch. Furthermore, it pairs excellently with top-tier stuff like Medi, Lop (ESPECIALLY Bpass oml that is so fun), Terrak, and basically any other fighting type/cleaner/pivot out there.

This isn't to imply it is faultless, obviously. Somewhat sub-par speed gives it a hard time against offense, though that isn't too relevant when you consider what it's being used for in the first place, blasting through bo/balance/stall(when paired with something like, idk CB Daunt, which actually sounds like a nice darkspam core come to think of it). It faces major competition from the Latis, undeniably, but the Latis don't have anywhere near the level of coverage Hydra does, or the insanely spammable stab in Dark Pulse, or the real ability to run Specs considering you're always going to be dropping your sp.att or having on of the million and one psychic resists coming in on shock and forcing you out. Just something to think about.


Following stuff is for the ranking team only and I'd like to not have any discussion revolving around shitmon nitpicking as it's fruitless at the end of the day and just derails/clutters/turns the thread to shit.

shit that needs to be dropped from d imo

fabio is cool and all but i feel the only reason it's still here is as a meme mon. agility never does anything, defensive is ok but in reality nobody is ever using it and it should not be suggested to newer players

fuck blissey this thing sucks. just use chansey like the only reason to use this was when lando-i was about and if ur team autolost to gengar, for which we have mega sableye at a push (unless u dont wanna risk the poison)

this should require no explanation but if u want tldr is use mew

on the fence about this tbh. incredibly mu dependent, hard as hell to build around, weak to everything, zardy exists, hydra (which is a million times better as a special dark-type breaker) exists. i just cant really see any situation in which i'd actually want to use this. speed and power are nice though, and np is good.

why is this ranked without greninja here????

just use hippo/lando/terrak/tar in place of whatever bad set you can come up with

dont use this it's v bad. steels kill its joy. rachi is the premium fairy counter atm, to which it can do nothing when u account for lefties and protect.

viability of tspikes has dropped significantly with the influx of amoonguss in the tier. nobody has ever taken this thing seriously anyway

pls this is something that i actually find funny to see in preview in elo hell (the only place it will ever be found)

this is debatable i guess but i dont think shed stall is even good nor is it relevant enough to keep this thing about

use tar or terrak. "muh head smash" is not enough to keep this thing around considering the utility that tar brings in setting sand and trapping, having actual real bulk, and viable support sets. terrakion is godly and it isnt slow as molasses.

 

[Vert]

m-latias has never been good. it either does nothing or does a lot. similar to m-gyarados in a sense, but it should have never risen to a- to begin with. waste of mega slot imo. rain is bad right now. i think sd kabutops is underrated for rain especially when tankchomp is like non existent right now. drop all the rain 'mons to b-. crawdaunt should easily be b+ because it is a god. ridiculous wallbreaker and adaptability aqua jet is yung as hell. also, m-lopunny should be a+ and m-medicham should stay in its place. i've been having doubts on medi after talking shit to some high ladder and the lop is a much more consistent threat. landorus-t isn't a counter.

i want dragonite in b+. i have been playing with it a lot today and the fly set is something no one takes into account into teambuilding when weavile is like the only thing that is really stopping and even then that comes at the expense of 2 kills if you are fully set up. of course, if your opponent knows you are fly, they can play safely around it, but most people expect band or dragon dance + 3 attacks. choice band is a phenomenal set because of how strong extreme speed is and 3 attacks is pretty good as well. the dd + 2 attacks + roost set is something i am trying a lot recently. not many people have much for dragon / ground coverage since offense's way of dealing with garchomp is revenge killing. similar to zygarde except better match up against bulky offense. overall, it has a lot of versatility and it's a super underrated threat because the relevant metagame is balls to walls offense or bulky offense which dragonite performs well against.

at this point, i think its fair to move mega heracross to solid a rank. this thing is so bulky, it takes hits like latios's draco meteor and diancie's moonblast. it literally dismantles stall all by itself with sd when you have rockers like clefable and excadrill rising in usage which can get rocks against stall to break skarmory's sturdy. also, there is abr's rest set which is rest / pin missile / cc / rock blast which literally beats stall all by itself. rest up when you are low and you can burn sleep turns easily because nothing on stall 3hkoes

lel

sub is as good as always. it's a huge threat and i find its use more useful than mega medicham's right now, but that's obviously a personal opinion

 

[J.Porteous]

1. What about Sceptile to c+ because of base 145 speed/ special attack, hp fire, earthquake,focus blast and leaf storm to check/deal with Pokémon like heatran, lando, keldeo,scizor, diance, rotom wash, slowbro and so on.

Great switch in on Pokémon like raikou, m-manetric, and thunderous
4× resistant to water, grass, ground, rock,
2x/immune to electric
Crude examples:

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 274-324 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 344-408 (122.4 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Mega Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 296-352 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Sceptile: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO Sceptile is faster regardless)

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 474-558 (196.6 - 231.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 504-594 (156 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 211-249 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 434-512 (143.2 - 168.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Striking weakness being ice moves, talon flame, bulky grass types

 

[Hilomilo]

Politoed & Kingdra B -> B- Agree The fact that rain is super matchup-dependant has just been reiterated so much in this thread's last couple of pages, that it's hard to really justify using rain in this tier anymore (especially considering the rarity of too favorable of match ups for rain teams in this meta), thus making Politoed and Kingdra in need of drops.
Mega Latias A- -> B+ Agree I admittedly haven't used Mega Latias a ton, but when I have I've discovered that it's a similar case to the above mentioned mons in that it's super matchup-dependant. It can either do a team wonders, or basically beg for the KO, and as high-reward of a mon as it is, it's even more high-risk and warrants a drop.
Azumarill A -> A- Disagree Sure, its CB set isn't so hot right now, but that isn't to say that BD isn't A-worthy. Your team is as good as dead if your water resist is gone and Azu's gotten a bd under its belt. We're also seeming to forget that it offers decent defensively utility for an offensive mon, as it can make good use of sitrus berry and switch into a lot of big threats, like Zard X and Keldeo. This thing is definitely more on par with the A mons than those in A-.
Alomomola B- -> B Agree At first, the extreme passiveness of this thing kept me from agreeing, but it can still make some marks with scald and/or knock off while walling the hell out of just about anything and having that coveted access to regenerator and reliable recovery. Does wonders for a few different play styles, respectively.
Crawdaunt B -> B+ On the fence The prevalence of stall and this thing's insane wall breaking capabilities make me want to agree with a rise, but are we really gonna keep Gyarados, Dragonite, and Breloom in B while watching Crawdaunt rise? I think there may be some calcs above for banded Dragonite, so I shouldn't need to make much of an argument there, and with sand balance and offense everywhere, Breloom's been making a name for itself as a solid sand check, albeit better against offense due to its general lack of things like Tangrowth and Amoonguss, but even with those pokemon as opponents, Breloom really only requires a grass check on its team to do its job. Gyarados is a little harder to make a case for, but if you look into it, bulky dd is a great matchup against any sand team (yes, including blanket check bulky grass types) and matches up well against a lot of the tier considering the general lack of electric types. What can check it in sand can't switch in (i.e. Excadrill and Mega Scizor) and after a few dd boosts, these mons don't really check gyara anymore. Still think Craw is amazing, but so are Gyara, Loom, and Dragonite. If one warrants a rise, all do.

 

[AHappyCactus]

Yo guys you know who is so good right now? Lucario.

It's currently in C+ and I think that is a crime. I'm sure lots of people have their own opinions differing from mine so I'm only going to suggest that it goes to B-.

The set that I will be talking about today is as follows:

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch/ Crunch
- Swords Dance

Now, this lucario set is the most viable one in OU imo. I tried band, and even a special set, and neither were as successful as this one is. This set works incredibly well in tandem with another fighting type mega (Either lop or medi) as it can lure in anything that would give them trouble. I saw the idea somewhere posted to run Crunch lucario + mega medi so that lucario could lure in the crap like slowbro and other things that give medi trouble. Another suggestion was to run ice punch so that you could kill lando's for your lopunny, giving you the ability to run PuP freely. So, I paired luc up with lopunny and I honestly expected it to do nothing but clear out landos and the occasional tank chomp. But as I continued to use it, I found that it could set up on a surprising amount such as t-tar, clefable, ferrothorn, bisharp, and then finish games from there. I only have one replay because I'm bad and lost all the other ones, but this one in particular is one where luc puts in work. It threatens out a lot of stuff, and clears the way for the pokemon you want to sweep. Perfect fit for a lot of styles of teams, and I really feel like it deserves a spot higher than where it is.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-412334900 Just watch luc go my goodness he's an animal. Use him to sweep or to pave the way for a sweeper in the back, it doesn't matter he still wins games. Its late and I only have like 15 mins to write this so sorry if it's sorta sloppy I'll add more tomorrow if I have to!

 

[in the hills]

Poli+Kingdra B -> B-: Agree. Not much more to it than what's already been said, rain is ass and is incredibly matchup based and there's nothing that makes those two standout from other rain team members.

MLati A- -> B+: Iffy, leaning agree MLati is probably my favorite mega right now so it's hard for me to see this nom, but it's probably needed. MLati has developed Hippowdon syndrome, where its passiveness has started to outweigh the benefits of walling a bunch of shit. I don't agree with saying it never should have been a-, it was really good at one point but I believe MLati's glory days are over and it needs to drop. EDIT: I change my mind after these shutposts ahead of me their (aka his) terrible reasoning made me realize it's dumb to drop MLati

Azumarill A -> A-: Agree. I'm not 100% on this one because Volcanion is still A for whatever reason, but if and when Volc drops I'll gladly vouch for this thing in A-. Azu is great and checks some major threats like Char X Keld and with the Sap set Char-Y and Serp, but honestly it doesn't compare to other A rank mons breaking power because Tang Amoon Skarm and Ferro are everywhere these days and Azu can't keep up. I think it compares moreso with the mons in A- and should drop

Crawdaunt B -> B+: Nuetral, leaning disagree. Crawdaunt is crazy good at wallbreaking right now I get that, but honestly I think this nomination is purely fueled by the hype train and nothing else. Crawdaunt was B- a few hours ago and it's already nominated for B+... Idk man. Crawdaunt is good right now, but I don't think he's as good as mons like MMane KyuB and Nido, and instead of nomming multiple mons like Breloom and Dnite to move up with him just keep him B, because I do agree, Breloom and Dnite (the fly set is so good right now really) are as good as him but again they aren't fit for B+.

Alomomola B- -> B: Agree Alomomola is passive as hell and to begin with I thought p2 was joking, but after giving it some thought and watching tour replays of it I warmed up to it a lot more. This thing is annoying as hell being so bulky and Regen+Wish is incredibly nice team support on offense and stall, especially considering most mons get 90%+ of there health back from it. Mola isn't weak to pursuit like Slowbro and King, and it walls most physical attackers right now easily. Definitely think it deserves to be B

Hydreigon B- -> B Agree. This thing is so strong right now and honestly dark resists are so rare. The meta is in Hydreigon's favor so much right now and I don't see many flaws with it atm. Its speed tier is decent, it hits like a truck, has utility sets and is also a decent scarf user that can act as a pivot with u turn. Very deserving of B rank.

MHera A- -> A: Nuetral. I think MHera is really good right now and I do think it's bulkier sets are better than what has been previously used and yeah it pretty much 6-0s stall but again I'm not 100% on it being as good as mons like MLop Mmedi and Weavile

MLopunny A - A+: Agree MLop is really good right now with its high speed and power, which threatens most teams consistently, but it also has some incredibly useful utility. You can always run Ice Punch for Lando Chomp and Glisc, but Healing Wish or Baton Pass allow MLop to bring in a solid counter to its switchins and possibly heal them in a tight situation. Encore, albeit not as universally good, helps MLop against mons that spam healing moves, and allows it to use Power Up Punch to break them or switch to a check. MLopunny is honestly one of the best megas right now and I think it should rise

Pretty much all I have to say about these mons. I also agree 100% with tigers jaw about removing those D rank mons, they really have got to go.

Ps why did Toge drop to B- I never saw a nom for it to drop and I think the bulky np set is one of the best stallbreakers right now, so I'm just a little confused on why it dropped

 

[HailFall]

okay umm idk why everyone has such a hate boner for mlati but it shouldnt even be being considered for a drop. on mobile so this isnt gonna be super detailed but good lord some of this reasoning is terrible.
Its without a doubt better than almost anything in b+ besides maybe suicune. putting it in the same rank as shitmons like mega manectric and mega venu is absurd

you should realize mega latias isnt anywhere near as passive as all of you are saying it is if you stop using those awful boltbeam sets and try calm mind. yes boltbeam is definitely deserving of B+ but calm mind is a solid A-

mlatias isnt really matchup dependant more than like any other mon in ou i have zero fucking clue where people are getting this from. cm sets are super solid wincons against basically all standard archetypes sooo ?_?

lati isnt total bandtar bait with cm surf either but whatever i guess

 

[YungWalrus]

i'm personally excited to see tangrowth in OU, he's one of my favorite pokemon. it;s not even like he isnt capable of performing well in OU, so I'll definitely be using him.
i'm not too good with showdown, but I'll just give my opinion on crawdaunt:
whenever I use him, I always wish I used a different water type. he's slow as shit and forced to use aqua jet, then get locked in to aqua jet and have to switch out. i'm not even gonna bother trying the swords dance set, there's no way in hell he can survive a turn to set up with his bulk.

 

[zbr]

i'm personally excited to see tangrowth in OU, he's one of my favorite pokemon. it;s not even like he isnt capable of performing well in OU, so I'll definitely be using him.
i'm not too good with showdown, but I'll just give my opinion on crawdaunt:
whenever I use him, I always wish I used a different water type. he's slow as shit and forced to use aqua jet, then get locked in to aqua jet and have to switch out. i'm not even gonna bother trying the swords dance set, there's no way in hell he can survive a turn to set up with his bulk.

which is why you build around crawdaunt , not mindlessly slap him on a team. daunt is one of those mon that rly love volt turn support and also loves support from hwish / twave. imo daunt has been good this metagame and its rly more of a sleeper mon than anything. idk why people are using banddaunt bc honestly, lo / blackglasses / mystic water sd daunt is the way to go since it allows you to switch up moves as well as put pressure on your opponent with mystic water and blackglasses having the added benefit of faking the choice item.

e - oh it's being nommed for b+ ? ehhh idk how to feel about it being b+ but it's a beast for sure tho so i wouldn't mind seeing people being more prepared for it by running faster rotoms

 

[SJCrew]

i'm personally excited to see tangrowth in OU, he's one of my favorite pokemon. it;s not even like he isnt capable of performing well in OU, so I'll definitely be using him.
i'm not too good with showdown, but I'll just give my opinion on crawdaunt:
whenever I use him, I always wish I used a different water type. he's slow as shit and forced to use aqua jet, then get locked in to aqua jet and have to switch out. i'm not even gonna bother trying the swords dance set, there's no way in hell he can survive a turn to set up with his bulk.

You probably feel that way because you always click Aqua Jet on the thing in front of you instead of anticipating the switch and using Knock Off or Swords Dance. If you're at +2 and something defensive comes in, it's going to die. Stall can't even use Unaware 'mons to get around it because they're all 2HKOed by Crabhammer.

Crawdaunt is a high-risk Pokemon that requires you to be able to read your opponent. If you're not quite at that level of play yet, then you're perfectly justified in avoiding it.

 

[Martin]

Overly long, poorly worded post incoming.

Drop Mega Latias
The MLati hate boner is there because it isn't good now and it wasn't good in the first place (it was overrated as fuck). Like, the community got a boner over it because it wasn't particularly well prepared for it, and now it's having a less extreme case of Altaria syndrome where the most basic building requirements result in you being prepped for this by default and people are realising that it isn't actually that hard to beat and it often finds itself not pulling it's weight in a matchup. It's one of those things which looks really sweet on paper but just falls flat in practice, and it is just plain inconsistent to the point where it is very rarely worth justifying on a team. While CM+Surf is great and all for it's ability to not be BandTar bait, the sheer fact that it has to choose between running Surf or losing to it just highlights the biggest issue with Mega Latias in the current metagame and shows how it is having to desparately warp itself around the meta just to stay afloat to the point where it is actively sacrificing some of what makes it effective in the first place. If you run CM+Surf, you have one moveslot to do something which you realistically want 2 to achieve. Without Surf you can't carry BoltBeam (which hurts your cleaning ability by reducing the pool of 'mons you can take on) and it can't carry dual STABs (which is nice to reduce CM reliance and to win CM wars due to the slight power increase over both Surf and BoltBeam and due to Psyshock hitting physically). If you carry any non-attacking move you suffer from over-reliance on CM because a non-STAB Surf is annoyingly weak unboosted/uninvested, if you carry any attacking move you suffer from suboptimal type coverage. The core issue with MLati regardless of set, however, is that the undenyable fact is that it is passive due to the lack of either investment or a boosting item, and unlike Pokémon such as Heatran or the Slows--which are theoretically in a similar boat as unboosted Mega Latias--it lacks the pressure that is put on by the high activation rate of secondary effects allowing for unboosted pressure (Scald/Lava Plume's burn rate; Magma Storm's trapping without the lacking power of Whirlpool) and they have consistently useful utility outside of CM (Tran stallbreaks without requiring boosts, can put pressure on between Magma Storm/Lava Plume, Toxic and Taunt, can lay rocks etc.; Slowbro/king has Regen, making it consistent at pivoting, and can also spread burns early-game before it's ready to CM up).

Way back when the entire fucking community had a Lati boner I was kinda skeptical in general as whenever I used it or faced it I was always incredibly underwhelmed by it. I always thought "if I want a CM user I might as well just use (Mega) Slowbro" and "if I want something to sponge [latias' resistances] I might as well use Pokémon X, Y and Z" because it just seemed like it was used to patch up poor teambuilding despite not even particularly excelling in it's role. I've been 6:0'd by Mega Slowbro on team preview, but I've never had a match where Latias has been a particularly difficult threat to deal with. I thought that maybe it comes down to the sheer frequency with which I use Pokémon like Weavile, Band Tyranitar and to a lesser extent Mega Diancie (all very good Pokémon which are argubly better now than they were back then), but then when I actually used it I was always underwhelmed too. If you go with it's debatably better BoltBeam variant you really struggle to win CM wars versus anything, and if you go dual STABs, 1-attack or Surf it's coverage always feels lacking. This causes problems in general regarding it's overall effectiveness, and while it's nice to counter stuff like Keldeo, Volcanion and Zard Y among whatever else it counters it very quickly falls when you realise that literally all of these get commonly paired with stuff like Weavile and BandTar and prevent it from really doing anything in a given match. Quite frankly if you want a Keldeo counter and wincon in one slot you should be using Slowking over this as it can actually threaten Tar without altering it's moveset at all, which is a big consideration when countering Keldeo, and then you can also apply the logic to just about everything you are using Latias as a primary answer to. Having trouble with electrics? Run something which blocks Volt Switch and/or isn't Tar bait! The FWG types have their fair share of more effective answers too to the point where if you really feel the need to use Mega Latias to deal with them it probably boils down to you forcing too many roles into one slot to the point where it just gets overwhelmed.

I'm really tired right now (I was up super late last night chatting and have had a rlly weird day that has resulted in me being rlly tired) so I apologise if this post was a bit weird to try and get your head around and I also realise that it is probably way too long-winded about what it was saying, but a tl;dr which lacks any form of explanation of my point is that MLati sucks, MLati has always been kinda crappy/overrated imo and it should drop.

 

[AM]

M-Latias should always be running Surf and arguably CM, Psyshock / Surf / Roost / CM. If BandTar is the argument for M-Lati dropping with some literal dung mons then that isn't really good logic :/ and idk why people are acting like its strapped for moves when that set is all it needs. It has nothing to do with an "M-Lati Boner" that hype was trying to bump it to like A and it settled in A-.

If you're dropping M-Latias, drop all the megas in B+ down a rank to. It's much more consistent than all of them.