Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

[Oddish.]

Just woke up. Here's what I think of the news:

Evil team actually looks pretty neat. I'm liking the street gang idea. Please don't fuck this up, Game Freak.

Wishiwashi's school form either goes away when it gets hits by a super effective move, or drops to low hp. Which is really disappointing.

Sea bunny pokemon is adorable. Might use it if it gets a cool evolution.

Thank god for Alolan Raichu. Though I think a mega would have been neat, it's nice to see Game Freak giving this guy any attention at all. It's kinda cute how it looks like it's surfing on its tail. It's ability though...not too sure how I feel about that.

I don't have anything to say on Alolan Meowth and Marowak.

It seems like Pikachu and Cubone aren't getting Alolan forms. Pikachu is fine, sinxe electric -> electric/psychic isn't really that big of a deal. But ground -> fire/ghost? Maybe they do have Alolan forms that we're just not seeing yet?

 

[Cainchin]

Now that I think about it if Team skull is messing with the Trial Challenges that means they are directly confronting/messing with the trainer/heroe which means we got a legit excuse to fight them instead of "just evil guys I'm the good guy, my duty is to defeat them"

While the other teams want to take over the world and thus affects the trainer indirectly which means it has to do something about it, this still feels diferent for Alola.

-I just started my journey as a trainer with my rival as the only challengers but I'm gonna be the best one of Alola of the two doing the trial!

Skull grunt: You don't kid we have taken over this place you're not going to be the best as long as we are here.

-You better register me as your biggest threat to your plans you just directly opposed me, Team Skull!

Skull grunt: What are you gonna do?!

Trainer sent out Arceus lv 100. Arceus: Guess what I'm fresh out of mercy and full of Judgement :D

Skull grunt: How is this posible?!!

-Pokebank machines son!

 

[Deck Knight]

Very hype for Team Skull. That theme is great, and Guzma just has that great intimidation vibe going. Also he's huge. A lot of the evil team bosses are just physically imposing - Cyrus, Ghetsis, Lysandre... and now Guzma. Some of his behavior I think is just edgelord stuff, but from the very brief clip I already love this guy. He's already giving Kukui the "we're not all that different" villain speech.

Their theme is also metal. So very, very metal.

I liked the CoroCoro specific newmons more, although I must say Alola-Wak's battle entrance is epic. Additionally if it keeps the base form moves then A-Wak will still have Bonemerang, which is still a great move. Seems like it's getting a Ghost-type Bone Rush as well. Either way it's very cool and did not disappoint. I'm more Wishy-washy on Wishiwashi but it all depends on if it really can "School" people.

 

[QuickBH]

Bruh I know metal and that isn't metal. It's just streetpunk or some sort of mix type of hiphop. I don't know how to describe it but it's the same stuff they use in Jet Set Radio.

 

[Mova]

It seems that the Team Skull Grunts simply refer to each other Grunt [Letter], implying a form of acknowledgement that they're mooks. Not sure if that's actually lampshade hanging, though.

 

[Siggu]

It seems that the Team Skull Grunts simply refer to each other Grunt [Letter], implying a form of acknowledgement that they're mooks. Not sure if that's actually lampshade hanging, though.

They kind of look like street thugs so they may be nicknames.

 

[ThreeT]

Hey, what's everyones opinion on wishiwashi. Is its ability trash or could it be somewhat overpowered?

 

[Norne]

All I know is that if the cucumber bunny and Zoroark end up hanging up in similar tiers I'm going to have fun with both.

 

[PinoyBeast808]

I'm more Wishy-washy on Wishiwashi but it all depends on if it really can "School" people.

NO, NO PUNS. Team Skull already gave us enough, so no more puns.

 

[MrTharne]

Hey, what's everyones opinion on wishiwashi. Is its ability trash or could it be somewhat overpowered?

If we look at it like Archeops's defeatist : Archeops is NU...BUT the School form seems to be more powerful and bulky than Archeops. There is a chance that it will be "okay".

 

[QuickBH]

NO, NO PUNS. Team Skull already gave us enough, so no more puns.

You have a problem with puns? I got a bone to pick with you! I'd break an arm and a leg for some good puns!

 

[HelenTheHero]

Anyone know what's up with the admin though? Can't remember her name, but she refers to the grunts her younger brothers and sisters.

 

[Project_Mars]

Very hype for Team Skull. That theme is great, and Guzma just has that great intimidation vibe going. Also he's huge. A lot of the evil team bosses are just physically imposing - Cyrus, Ghetsis, Lysandre... and now Guzma. Some of his behavior I think is just edgelord stuff, but from the very brief clip I already love this guy. He's already giving Kukui the "we're not all that different" villain speech.

Their theme is also metal. So very, very metal.

Odds are Guzma and Kukui are the same age and both failed to becone Trial Captains. And no, the battle theme is not metal... And tbh i found it a bit jarring. No it isn't the first time we've had words in a pokemon song (Who could ever forget "Dennnnis. Dennnnnis.") but I never really expected this. Not as big a fan, but sans lyrics it is pretty cool.

The boss said something like 'fellow reject' to professor, didn't he? I feel like it's something deeper than just gangster shenanigans, although not as far as those villain factions trying to make The End of The World as We Know It. This seems so interesting.


A Pokemon version of land mine. Oh great, I suddenly have chills imagining it on many people's teams....

Will people start packing False Swipe too to defuse this thing? Jk Ww

I am inclined to believe that Guzman will try to bring about the End of the World, and that is why he is looking for Solgaleo/Lunara.

And huh, didn't think about it thusly, but yeah. Sea Cucumber Landmine. I wonder how it'll be utilized in VGC.

Edit:

Anyone know what's up with the admin though? Can't remember her name, but she refers to the grunts her younger brothers and sisters.

I think that is more of a japanese cultural thing than anything... Or at least gang underlings referring to their superiors as "big bro" and "big sis" shows up in several different anime.

 

[Lady Vader]

After seeing Pyukumuku in action, I have to say, I've warmed up to the little guy. The guts fist is surprisingly cute and charming. I think it might have earned the last slot on my team (though we'll just have to see what's left along with version exclusives).

Planned team for Moon as of 11 August 2016:
Rowlet / Salandit / Pyukumuku / Vikavolt / Rockruff / Mimikyu

Also, this

Their guess: maybe it ate too many sweet and fluffy round pancakes!

Best theory on Raichu-A.

Quick opinion on other 'mons:
I love Wishiwashi's name and I think it's kinda neat, but I'm not enthused by it. A general problem with Water-types this gen, despite the large number of really cool designs.

Raichu-A is adorable.

Marowak-A is a really cool Ghost-type, therefore I love it.

Am I the only one who is a little sad that Meowth-A doesn't get STAB on Pay Day anymore? I mean, I've been using a Persian in X and I love spamming Pay Day, but it really needs both STAB and Technician to be usable.

I keep forgetting about Morelull. I guess because I already have a Grass/Fairy that I love deeply (Whismicott was too useful in Black). That and it's another mushroom. I'm not a big fan of mushroom Pokémon. It's cute, though.

Also, as I said before, I look forward to beating the ever living swag out of Team Skull.

Something of note that comes from the website:

Innards Out - When the user faints, it deals damage equal to how much HP it had before fainting.

It's Aftermath on steroids. As an "average" reference, a Diglett (Lowest non-hardcoded HP) would deal almost 50% to a Mew that OHKOes it, provided both are at Level 100, 31 IVs and 0 EVs on HP.

Yeah, that just makes me want to use it more.

3. The last time Terrakion was relevant was pre-bank XY

Um...how? You couldn't use Terrakion pre-Bank since there were none in X and Y.

Oh. I just realized something. We're here talking about Pyukumuk's competitive abilities, but how about how much of a nightmare it's going to be in-game. No matter what, even if I have a team of all 6, I tend to just juggernaut my way though. If a trainer has one of these I better not OHKO it so easily. Maybe I'll be forced to send out my False Swiper and let it hit me just so I don't take a ton of damage from it.

Now imagine how much of a pain it would be to see Pyukumuk in a Horde Battle.

Yeah...this thing is going to be hell. Also, if you see it in a Nuzlocke...*shudders*

Imagine having a full team of Pyukumuku for the story. All you would need are a bunch of Revives and you can sweep whole teams by doing nothing. You could theoretically beat any trainer without using any attacks, including the champion (or whatever the equivalent to that wil be in this game).

Let that sink in.

Now that's a pro strat.

 

[Norne]

Anyone know what's up with the admin though? Can't remember her name, but she refers to the grunts her younger brothers and sisters.

A common thing with Japanese old school thugs, they treat the biggest guy as their big brother for protecting them and act as their leader.

It's very common on 80s Anime, the big sis also applied towards the gyaru archetype and thug girl but this hit popularity in the late 80s and dies down a bit in the mid 90s thanks to the popularity of the harem and the undoubted rise of the moe in the 2k.

Oddly enough after the 2ks I have only seen it in gyaru or femdom doujinshi for females to be referred as that, the big Bro street thug mostly called Aniki by his underlings still persists mostly on old school Banjou references.

Of the non doujinshi comedic funny examples I can think of we have Onidere with the female lead being the leader of an all female gang.

 

[sin(pi)]

There's absolutely no way Pyukumuku has a base HP of 70 or higher. It had ~17% left when Minior knocked it out and Minior lost 20 HP from Innards Out (which means Pyukumuku had 20 HP left), and that's just not possible with a higher base HP. Combining the information from both trailers together, base 53-55 HP is far more likely.

You can all stop panicking now!

So which is it? 53-55 or 85-102? That's a pretty big disparity in calculations if you ask me.

kinda large images

screen of video

0 EVs

31 EVs

We can clearly see that Pyukumuku has 79 HP at level 23, which leads to the following estimates.
Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, but I'd be very surprised if that were the case.

It's worth noting that 20/120 = 16.6%, which is roughly the amount of HP that Pyukumuku had. I'd guess that the HP is therefore dealt as a percentage. This does seem a little difficult for Gamefreak to implement especially if it's just 1HP, etc, but there's probably precedent for that.

 

[Project_Mars]

Something to note: A full HP Pyukumuku getting OHKO'd will result in anything with less than 103 base HP (and no Hp Investments, which only defensive pokemon will generally have) being OHKO'd by Innards Out.

Assuming it has 55 base HP and Max HP investment. It has potential to cause some pain unless it has good defenses. (Ala Rotom-W, who actually has 50 base Hp.)

 

[Lady Vader]

I just realized something: Magic Guard should protect against Innards Out, wouldn't it?

 

[Norne]

I just realized something: Magic Guard should protect against Innards Out, wouldn't it?

It doesn't protect vs abilities. As far as I know.

 

[Mad Ram]

It doesn't protect vs abilities. As far as I know.

Magic guard should work against ALL forms of indirect damage, including abilities such as aftermath. The only time it doesn't is on self-inflicted damage such as Belly Drum and confusion.

 

[Norne]

Our little sea bunny/cucumber hybrid friend just reminded me of the true facts series.

Needless to say I already got a nickname for this guy.

 

[DTC]

Pyukumuku's Innards Out ability sounds incredibly OP. So what happens is the opponent takes damage equal to the health Pyukumuku had before KOing it. So if my opponent's Talonflame KOed my Pyukumuku when it had 300 HP, then Talonflame takes 300 damage. DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW BIG A DEAL THIS IS!?

You have to whittle down a LOT of its health before KOing it, since the damage it deals is based on its remaining health. So if Pyukumuku comes in on hazards a few times then it's no big deal, but that won't stop it from acting as the ultimate check to every offensive Pokemon in the game. You can simply switch your Pokemon out, but that gives Pyukumuku a free Toxic or whatever moves it'll get, making it even more threatening. You can even switch Pyukumuku directly in and go all kamikaze on whatever attcks it. Setup sweepers, Choice item users, Outrage users, etc... are going to have hell against this thing, making it an absolute necessity to stall teams.

The only way this won't be incredibly OP is if it has Shuckle's stats where it has insane defenses and low HP, but it would still be great for softening something up to make revenge killing a lot easier. If this thing has any real HP, then it's going to be one of the most influential forces in the entire game, regardless of what tier it winds up in. I'm not asking for a ban or anything ridiculous like that; the game isn't even out yet. I'm just saying once Pyukumuku starts getting usage, it's gonna hit the metagame harder than the Fairy typing ever did. Prepare yourselves, guys.

This is hyperbole.

The utility of Innards Out is directly impacted by how much pressure the Pokemon with the ability applies with it. If the Pokemon with Innards Out applies a lot of offensive pressure, then you are faced with a conundrum where you want to deal as much damage to them in as few turns as possible, but you also don't want to take massive damage from Innards Out. However, if the Pokemon does not apply much pressure because of low offensive stats / no Spikes, then it becomes a "do nothing" Pokemon that you can take your time to deal with and thus mitigate the recoil damage from Innards Out. Without any offensive pressure, it becomes heavily dependent on either switching in at the right time, or the opponent making a misplay / misprediction.

A Pokemon that is, according to your logic, supposed to just act as suicide fodder for potent offensive threats really isn't the best fit for a stall team since they want to, you know, sustain their defensive Pokemon for as long as they can. Stall teams are pretty strapped for teamslots as it is, so they don't often have the ability to use some niche Pokemon that doesn't even reliably beat important threats. I think you're mistaken on that statement - that ability seems more potent on an offensive Pokemon and in an offensive teamstyle.

So yeah, basically how good Innards Out is depends on how much offensive pressure Pyukumuku / its evolution puts out. If it's the standard run of the mill defensive Pokemon, then it probably isn't going to be anything exceptional. I'd much rather have an ability like Regenerator or Magic Guard that I can consistently use and not be dependent on my opponent making a certain play. Proactive abilities are more reliable than reactive abilities. However, if it has good offensive stats / high HP but low bulk (think something like Honchkrow's stat spread except Special Attack > Speed), I can see it being pretty cool since offensive teams often have to sacrifice Pokemon in order to get a free switchin. That said, you're really overblowing how good this ability actually is. It won't be nearly as "OP" as you proclaim it will be.

 

[Codraroll]

Just realized, if it gets both Final Gambit and Recover, Pyukumuku could be the ultimate suicide bomber Pokémon.

So... you're in a battle. You, a knowledgeable Smogonite, will have figured out the foe Pokémon's Speed relative to yours.

If you're faster than the foe, you use Final Gambit. You will then have inflicted damage on the foe comparable to a full Innards Out OHKO, which we'll assume is the best damage you can hope for.

If you're slower, use Recover.

- If the foe's faster move knocks you out, he'll face the full brunt of Innards Out.
- If the foe's faster move deals damage, but not enough to KO you, you'll Recover up damage to at least 50 %, and then deal severe damage to him if he KO's you next turn. Alternately, you'll PP stall him.
- If the foe boosts, you've got him cornered. He can only attack you (and by extension, himself) or switch out, neither of which is a desirable outcome. Alternately, you'll PP stall him.
- If the foe goes for passive damage, you'll Recover it off. If you're inflicted with Toxic poison, which you can't survive in the long run, break your Recovery and Final Gambit the foe while you still have the HP to hurt him.


Of course, it remains to be seen how much HP Pyukumuku could inflict on the foe, or if it gets both moves at all, but if the answer to both questions are positive, the strategy puts most foes in a very unfavourable position.


Or you could do something more reliable, like Destiny Bond. While Pyukumuku might be the ultimate "suicide bomber", it doesn't seem like suicide bombing is a good idea to begin with.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Just realized, if it gets both Final Gambit and Recover, Pyukumuku could be the ultimate suicide bomber Pokémon.

So... you're in a battle. You, a knowledgeable Smogonite, will have figured out the foe Pokémon's Speed relative to yours.

If you're faster than the foe, you use Final Gambit. You will then have inflicted damage on the foe comparable to a full Innards Out OHKO, which we'll assume is the best damage you can hope for.

If you're slower, use Recover.

- If the foe's faster move knocks you out, he'll face the full brunt of Innards Out.
- If the foe's faster move deals damage, but not enough to KO you, you'll Recover up damage to at least 50 %, and then deal severe damage to him if he KO's you next turn. Alternately, you'll PP stall him.
- If the foe boosts, you've got him cornered. He can only attack you (and by extension, himself) or switch out, neither of which is a desirable outcome. Alternately, you'll PP stall him.
- If the foe goes for passive damage, you'll Recover it off. If you're inflicted with Toxic poison, which you can't survive in the long run, break your Recovery and Final Gambit the foe while you still have the HP to hurt him.


Of course, it remains to be seen how much HP Pyukumuku could inflict on the foe, or if it gets both moves at all, but if the answer to both questions are positive, the strategy puts most foes in a very unfavourable position.


Or you could do something more reliable, like Destiny Bond. While Pyukumuku might be the ultimate "suicide bomber", it doesn't seem like suicide bombing is a good idea to begin with.

Random opponent used Substitute. It's super effective!

I also don't expect this thing to have anything that resembles a Speed stat. It is a slug / cucumber after all.

 

[Samoyed]

Honestly I'm really happy that Team Skull is back to gang-crime like Team Rocket, and not trying to merge people with Pokemon or something weird like that.