Just for reference, due to Battle-Bond Water Shuriken is at least as strong as a priority Water Pulse, at 3 hits it's as strong as Surf, at 4 it's as strong as gen 1-5 Hydro Pump, and has the chance of having the same power as a priority Hydro Cannon. All this at 150ish Sp. Atk and the ability to hold an item.
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Ash-Greninja Discussion
- Thread starter Maestro Arena
- Start date
A lot of people have assumed it does double damage because you can play with this guy on the 3ds demo. And it looks like double at a glance.
That's all I know.
I think Battle Bond Greninja will be allowed in OU for several reason.
- First, it has mediocre offense stats before transform.
- Secondly, even with the Atk +SpA boost, its coverage move is still weaker than Protean STAB-boost (remember that Protean means it gets 1.5x boost on both Special and Physical coverage, while you have to choose to invest in either Atk or SpA in case of BB Greninja, which makes it even weaker if goes mixed-offense).
Yes, it has an amazing move in term of Water Shuriken after transformation, but it also means even worse 4MSS. Dark Pulse and Water Shuriken are madantory, then you may need Hydro Pump for strong Water STAB before transforming (you need to net KO to transform), which gives only 1 flexible slot for coverage. The increase in Speed is nice but won't make much difference (Weavile and Topu Koko is the only 2 significant things between 122 and 132 Speed, but after transforming you'd rather hit them with priority Water Shuriken anyways).
- First, it has mediocre offense stats before transform.
- Secondly, even with the Atk +SpA boost, its coverage move is still weaker than Protean STAB-boost (remember that Protean means it gets 1.5x boost on both Special and Physical coverage, while you have to choose to invest in either Atk or SpA in case of BB Greninja, which makes it even weaker if goes mixed-offense).
Yes, it has an amazing move in term of Water Shuriken after transformation, but it also means even worse 4MSS. Dark Pulse and Water Shuriken are madantory, then you may need Hydro Pump for strong Water STAB before transforming (you need to net KO to transform), which gives only 1 flexible slot for coverage. The increase in Speed is nice but won't make much difference (Weavile and Topu Koko is the only 2 significant things between 122 and 132 Speed, but after transforming you'd rather hit them with priority Water Shuriken anyways).
No. The Ash-Greninja that appears in your game is basically a completely new Pokemon, separate from the one you used in the demo.
I see.. that's why the nature isn't locked like in the demo.
Oh good, it isn't Hardy locked. What Nature would be good for it? I'm guessing Hasty or Naive as not to mess with its offense and boost its Speed?
Ash-Greninja is pretty much a Mega Greninja. It honestly hasn't changed much, it's still a fragile fast attacker but even better at it. Increase to Water Shuriken is also nice though would have also been nice if it made it hit all 5 times. Still, power isn't everything and one must wonder if the cost to obtain this power is worth giving up Protean. It first needs to knock out an opponent to activate Battle Bond meaning it needs to be put up against the right opponents. I guess I'll just leave that up to the meta game to decide.
Ash-Greninja is pretty much a Mega Greninja. It honestly hasn't changed much, it's still a fragile fast attacker but even better at it. Increase to Water Shuriken is also nice though would have also been nice if it made it hit all 5 times. Still, power isn't everything and one must wonder if the cost to obtain this power is worth giving up Protean. It first needs to knock out an opponent to activate Battle Bond meaning it needs to be put up against the right opponents. I guess I'll just leave that up to the meta game to decide.
I wonder if this will be worth running over Portein. Remember when people thought Torrent was just as good as Portein? Pepperage Farm remembers.
Protean Greninja:
- Clefable
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 361-429 (91.8 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
- Keldeo
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 315-374 (97.5 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Battle Bond Greninja (modify to 145 ATK and 153 SPA):
- Clefable
252 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 322-382 (81.9 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Keldeo
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 281-333 (86.9 - 103%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Protean Greninja is (much) stronger on coverage moves (considering you have to decide to invest in Atk or SpA because Greninja usually want to go mixed). The real question is weather 2X-power Water Shuriken is worth it.
The difference in power when compared to Protean is noticeable, but Battle Bond has advantages, of course. Buffed Speed and insanely beefed up STAB, and M-Alakazam can't steal your Ability and use it against you. Anyway, here are a couple quick calcs calcs:
Protean
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 92 SpD Mega Altaria: 283-338 (79.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS. Ash-Greninja
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 92 SpD Mega Altaria: 252-299 (71.1 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Protean
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 289-343 (74.8 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
VS. Ash-Greninja
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 385-455 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Basically, do you want a versatile Sweeper, or a speedy Wallbreaker? Honestly, I think Ash-Greninja might be the way to go, seeing as there isn't an insane drop off in power for coverage, you're faster, and you have pretty strong priority.
I feel about Ash Greninja the same way I felt about Charizard XY and Mewtwo XY.
Why? One thing I hate is when Pokemon get special treatments and Greninja BB is basically an insult to Pikachu
Oh well
I see him being good in OU. We'll probably see a rise in the usage of Bulky Water Types this gen. Tentacruel is coming back, that new Poison/Water thing will see usage too. Seems like a lot of Water types counter some strong mons like Greninja and UBeauty
Why? One thing I hate is when Pokemon get special treatments and Greninja BB is basically an insult to Pikachu
Oh well
I see him being good in OU. We'll probably see a rise in the usage of Bulky Water Types this gen. Tentacruel is coming back, that new Poison/Water thing will see usage too. Seems like a lot of Water types counter some strong mons like Greninja and UBeauty
UBeauty will be Users for sure.
BB greninja seems too good for OU IMO, it's fast and easy to get a KO to transform late game and has absurd stats + broken priority after that.
He could go Ubers yeah
Ubers is Primal Groudon territory after all and so far I've seen no Pokemon that threaten it's reign
He could go Ubers yeah but probably won't be used as much as Proteon form.
Ubers is Primal Groudon territory after all and so far I've seen no Pokemon that threaten it's reign
Does anybody know if it's possible to transfer more than one Ash-Greninja from the demo? (i.e. transferring one to both sun and moon, or getting another by restarting the game)
Before Greninja was banished to Ubers, my favorite set was its Spikes set. Greninja is one of the few good offensive Spikers in the game so it fits perfectly on offensive hazard stacking teams. Since Ash-Greninja is pretty limited in its coverage options compared to Protean, I think Spikes would be a good option for to wear down its counters and eventually pick them off to activate Battle Bond.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Extrasensory / Dark Pulse
- Spikes
Extrasensory hits Keldeo and Mega Venusaur super-effectively and has good neutral coverage with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam. It also receives a boost from Psychic Terrain. Speaking of Psychic Terrain, I don't think Water Shuriken is worth it since I expect Tapu Lele to be everywhere.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Extrasensory / Dark Pulse
- Spikes
Extrasensory hits Keldeo and Mega Venusaur super-effectively and has good neutral coverage with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam. It also receives a boost from Psychic Terrain. Speaking of Psychic Terrain, I don't think Water Shuriken is worth it since I expect Tapu Lele to be everywhere.
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Spikes Greninja was my favorite too. However, I would use Gunk Shot as my coverage (for Tapus, Clef & Grass-type), plus dual STAB Dark Pulse + Water Shuriken/Hydro Pump.
It has perfect neutral coverage (your set get hard-walled by Slowbro & Starmie).
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 28 Atk / 228 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Water Shuriken / Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Gunk Shot
- Spikes / Extrasensory
28 Atk guarantee OHKO on Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko, high chance 2HKO max/max Bold Clefable and 2HKO AV Torn-T with a little prior damage. Dark Pulse + Water Shuriken as STAB. Last slot is either Spikes or Extrasensory.
Battle Bond Greninja can't get Gunk Shot since it's an ORAS tutor move. But yeah, Dark Pulse is a good option over Extrasensory on the set I posted.
Oh, thanks for pointing it out.
Personally I think that Ash Greninja is going to be broken if only because, while it does lose out on ORAS tutors, the fact that the threat of a potential Pokémon with 145/153/132 offenses materialising puts massive pressure on the way that your opponent has to play around it. You can send out Ash Greninja to revenge kill something, and in turn this forces your opponent to either make a potentially suboptimal switch to avoid having to deal with Ash Greninja or to face it's wrath. Given base Greninja's already-blazing 122 base speed (successfully outstripping Tornadus-T and below), it's not hard to revenge kill stuff with it, and with it being able to gain stats which are comparable to a top-tier mega (Ash Greninja gets a BST increase of 110 upon form change) without being forced to go functionally itemless like megas are it is incredibly scary to think about and wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the form change were to dramatically effect the way your opponent plays.
But hey, at least it is walled hard by our lord and saviour Mantine due to it being forced into HP Ghost
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 44+ SpD Mantine: 126-149 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 109-130 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Once again proving that Mantine is our lord and saviour
But hey, at least it is walled hard by our lord and saviour Mantine due to it being forced into HP Ghost
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 44+ SpD Mantine: 126-149 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 109-130 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Once again proving that Mantine is our lord and saviour
Broken core:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Rest
Traps Ferrothorn and HP Fires if it has it. Comes in on fat waters and either PP stalls them or nails them with Thunderbolt, most notably including Mantine--which is crippled by Choice Scarf even if it flinches you to death with Air Slash on HP Fire sets
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Rest
Traps Ferrothorn and HP Fires if it has it. Comes in on fat waters and either PP stalls them or nails them with Thunderbolt, most notably including Mantine--which is crippled by Choice Scarf even if it flinches you to death with Air Slash on HP Fire sets
it got banned in gen 6 we dont know how much more gen 7 will change making it not as good
Protean Greninja woul be as good as XY Greninja. He got banned when ORAS and move Tutors came out, because of GunkShot fuckin Clefable and Azu.
Anyway, my Greninja has the same IVs in Sun/Moon and the Demo, so unless i got incredibly lucky (Like 1/10000 chances) the Ivs are the same, but not the nature.
[NoCheese edit to remove ban speculation]
Anyway, my Greninja has the same IVs in Sun/Moon and the Demo, so unless i got incredibly lucky (Like 1/10000 chances) the Ivs are the same, but not the nature.
[NoCheese edit to remove ban speculation]
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I'm aware of how that works. IE: Garchomp in gen 4.
Either way no matter what it will be a viable strategy in one of the tiers since this is technically a different Pokemon than normal Greninja.