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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
basically 1 shots it on the switch. Weavile and Band-Tar do the same or outright kill it. Scarf Lele is a very risky choice, considering that its supposed to be using psychic attacks most of the time.
Seriously, why is aegislash banned before phero?
Currently one of the main strength of aegislash is that it is the best counter against phero while most of the forum will tell you that phero is not going to stay in ou, which will certainly give aegislash a hit. So why dont ban phero 1st and see how things go from there?
This saddens me a lot because aegislash is such a unique pokemon and I hope it can stay in ou.
Currently one of the main strength of aegislash is that it is the best counter against phero while most of the forum will tell you that phero is not going to stay in ou, which will certainly give aegislash a hit. So why dont ban phero 1st and see how things go from there?
This saddens me a lot because aegislash is such a unique pokemon and I hope it can stay in ou.
Aegislash was a known quantity. It was tested twice in Gen 6 and deemed bannable in each case. This is why Deo-D/S were never even considered this Gen -- we've already had enough suspects to see what they do, and not enough has changed to give them another chance.
Phero, meanwhile, is brand new. We can't fall back on established knowledge of it, so unless it's Mega-Mence levels of insta-ban insanity (it's not) then it needs room to stretch its legs before we give it the boot.
At least, I'd assume that's what the council was thinking.
Phero, meanwhile, is brand new. We can't fall back on established knowledge of it, so unless it's Mega-Mence levels of insta-ban insanity (it's not) then it needs room to stretch its legs before we give it the boot.
At least, I'd assume that's what the council was thinking.
Dunno where you got your info from but phero definitely isn't the main reason why Aegislash is being used everywhere and I could go on right here but there's a post about this topic so no point imo. As Finch already said, don't just theorymon about how x pokemon is about to be absolutely unstopable, because we can't know what the meta will be like in a couple of days with Aegi gone. About Aegi staying in ou I know it's your opinion but saying it's a unique pokemon (because of its ability/stats/versatility) isn't a valid argument for it staying and keeping the metagame restricted and unhelathy imo
I'm really looking forward to using Bulu and especially Terrakion now that Aegi's gone. It can hit almost anything really hard with just CC+Edge, so it could be a great rock setter for offensive teams with rocks/SD/edge/cc. It's strong enough frail mons don't want to switch in often, and with SD you can blow away some walls when they try to check you.
To be fair we've seen this from Aegislash before. There always some new threat that Aegislash is specifically used to check/counter when he's available. Truth is though while you may have used him for a specific mon, you are actually blanket checking half the tier just because of what Aegislash can do. A pokemon with this much offensive and defensive presence just causes too much disruption. I love Aegislash as much as the next person, and was very anti-ban when the time came around, as well as pro-unban when that was a thing. However, the more I grow accustomed to exactly what he can do and play with/against it more I can totally understand how it's so overwhelming. It completely restricts your teambuilding to to very finite points like specific moves like earthquake just to ensure you get through king's shield okay.
Scarf Terrakion actually sounds super scary in this meta. I'm going to have to look into that. Hype because I love using terrakion a lot, also a good partner for my zam+lele combo.
This is actually the same way I felt back when I started playing competitive. I used to think Aegi wasn't banworthy and just wanted him back in ou lol. Then I started playing more seriously and I finally understood what Aegislash actually was for the metagame. The fact that a single mon is able to stop pretty much te whole tier from developing is just crazy and takes time to actually understand, now I'm 100% pro ban unless it gets nerfed next game or whatever
Anyone remember when ubers were for the actual uber pokemon, and not a list of pokes that tier leaders slowly cut down (Until stall is viable and every new arising threat dies off) in lieau of actually innovating and letting the metagame shift? Pepperidge farms remembers.
But yeah, let's already get ready to ban half these mons instead of playing gameplay that we're not comfortable with
But yeah, let's already get ready to ban half these mons instead of playing gameplay that we're not comfortable with
Do you guys think that the buffs the Masquerain brought it on the brink of viability in UU and even potential in OU with team support
It cannot compete with a lot of OU mons because of its shitty defenses and 80 base speed not being enough, but the 100 SpA and 80 Spe compared to last gens 80 Spa and 60 Spe makes a huge difference and it does have niches over a lot of quiver dance mons.
It has access to Intimdate allowing it to survive shit other bugs can't survive and it has access to Ice Beam and hydro pump which no other quiver dance user gets. not to mention with Aegislash banned, and Talonflame nerfed it can put in more work. That being said you most likely need u-turn / volt switch support in order to get this guy in safetly and it still dies to scissor's BP and Azu's Aqua Jet and basically any other priority that isn't mach punch.
Masquerain @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Air Slash / Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
Not saying by any means its going to be strong in the meta so sorry if i shouldn't have posted this here, but I would love to hear input on if it now has potential in UU and OU due with support or if it will still be a PU shitmon.
Interesting notes:
252 SpA Masquerain Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 376-444 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Masquerain Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 240-284 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 228-270 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 216-254 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 236-278 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Without a boost it can still threaten a lot of mons (no garchomp would want to switch into it because it has ice beam but it having ice beam is a huge asset). But it kinda gets destroyed by bulky waters.
It cannot compete with a lot of OU mons because of its shitty defenses and 80 base speed not being enough, but the 100 SpA and 80 Spe compared to last gens 80 Spa and 60 Spe makes a huge difference and it does have niches over a lot of quiver dance mons.
It has access to Intimdate allowing it to survive shit other bugs can't survive and it has access to Ice Beam and hydro pump which no other quiver dance user gets. not to mention with Aegislash banned, and Talonflame nerfed it can put in more work. That being said you most likely need u-turn / volt switch support in order to get this guy in safetly and it still dies to scissor's BP and Azu's Aqua Jet and basically any other priority that isn't mach punch.
Masquerain @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Air Slash / Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
Not saying by any means its going to be strong in the meta so sorry if i shouldn't have posted this here, but I would love to hear input on if it now has potential in UU and OU due with support or if it will still be a PU shitmon.
Interesting notes:
252 SpA Masquerain Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 376-444 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Masquerain Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 240-284 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 228-270 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 216-254 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 236-278 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Without a boost it can still threaten a lot of mons (no garchomp would want to switch into it because it has ice beam but it having ice beam is a huge asset). But it kinda gets destroyed by bulky waters.
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We've seen Aegislash for 3 years now, I think there is plenty to be comfortable with seeing how even though there is a whole slew of new pokemon with a bunch of mechanics tweaks, Aegi hasn't changed at all. That doesn't tell you exactly how this thing works? A solid year or two of this thing being gone and the second it comes back in a brand new meta it does the exact same thing it's always done. It's a sign of great design in the pokemon in a general aspect, but a bad one in the competitive sense because of how overwhelmingly suffocating Aegislash can be.
that was back when the legend pokes were the only ones with bst over 600. That argument just doesn't fly anymore Aegislash would have been a top tier legend pokemon in any of the older gens but now you can catch a pokemon that can ko the old god mewtwo on route 6
Let's talk about
In a post-Aegislash metagame where Greninja is no longer basically forced to run Dark Pulse, many more options are opened up for it because the only move that is truly mandatory is Ice Beam, for obvious reasons related to its potency as neutral coverage and dealing with typical Grasses/Dragons used to check offensive Waters. The basic idea you want to consider when building a Greninja set is how your team deals with various threats, because Greninja can be adapted to cover/lure pretty much anything if you want. The rest of this post will cover the specific options that exist in detail, some that are heavily used and some that are used less frequently, just so people can get an idea of what they can use with Greninja instead of just opting for some sort of very standard set without thinking and calling it a day. Remember that every time I talk about a specific combination being favored or unfavored that any given team can choose to break anything I say. It's just for the purpose of communicating some general ideas.
Gunk Shot is traditionally used to deal with Clefable, and also excels in light of other new Fairies, specifically achieving OHKOs on Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, and Tapu Koko. The main point of this option is to get rid of the new Fairies, specifically Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele (non-Scarf, though Greninja's Psychic immunity can help counterplay it regardless). Gunk Shot is also the only move that Greninja has to OHKO Tapu Koko (it even tanks an Ice Beam after Rocks from full), and can potentially bust through Mantine with the help of a 30% Poison chance. It's otherwise notable for doing good neutral damage to Waters, specifically Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Manaphy, and doing the most damage to Zard Y. For its help with Fairies and general neutral coverage, Gunk Shot is a strong option for Greninja. The largest disadvantage to it is imperfect accuracy, which Greninja tends to have the luxury to avoid with most its options, but 80% is enough that accuracy shouldn't be too large of a deterrent. There can also be some redundancy with certain other options, though no matter what it is always an option.
Hydro Pump's purpose is simple: it's the strongest special move in Greninja's viable arsenal by far. Other than hitting Heatran and Tyranitar, there's not a whole lot it does coverage-wise, but it helps out a lot with damage against neutral targets. For instance, Hydro Pump is the only non-Gunk Shot move Greninja possesses that has a chance to OHKO Tapu Koko from full or is guaranteed after Rocks, deals far more to Genesect (81-96 vs 59.3-70.3) than any non-HP Fire option, 2HKOes most any Mega Sableye, and 2HKOes bulky Mega Scizor. Aside from the specific targets, the primary takeaway you should get is the difference in strength vs neutral targets; for targets that are hit neutrally by both, Hydro Pump is ~37-37.5% stronger than Dark Pulse and ~22% stronger than Ice Beam. I wouldn't necessarily run Hydro Pump on every set because there are certainly many cases where the specific lures and super effective coverage can be superior for your team, and I also wouldn't use it with Spikes because there's only 3 slots for coverage, but Hydro Pump should always be considered a great option just because it is Greninja's strongest move.
Spikes Greninja is really good against more defensive teams that carry certain solid answers to it. Greninja is typically a Pokemon that forces many switches, providing many opportunities to set up the hazard and also apply pressure with it. Teams that can keep up the offensive tempo with other strong Pokemon, particularly VoltTurn and Landorus, can wear at opposing defensive cores very efficiently in a way that makes it fairly difficult to outlast the Greninja user, and Greninja can be adapted to beat any Defog user or Mega Sableye. I've said this in another post, but SR Landorus-I+Spikes Greninja with the right anti-Defogger lures puts absurd amounts of pressure and limitations on stall, to the point where it can be quite difficult to win. Not every team will want to run Spikes because you don't really want to run Defog+Spikes, which limits the types of teams and certain Pokemon you can use, but it's a strong option to add to the pressure Greninja applies.
HP Electric is a bit of a hidden gem in the current metagame, effectively luring Mantine. That makes it a big deal if you're running Spikes because then that can't Defog on you. I might argue that other sets can get by with Gunk Shot to break through Mantine, but being able to lure Mantine and prevent a Defog is such a strong option that I thought it was worth noting on its own. The other primary targets for HP Electric are other Waters, as it deals much more to Keldeo than Gunk Shot (73-86), 2HKOes Toxapex which basically gives you a free hole in something else or a kill if you predict the switch correctly, does more to Manaphy than anything else (63-76), OHKOes Pelipper (otherwise it could U-turn on you into dangerous rain sweeper for free and set rain again later), and prevents Gyara from setting up on you for free. It also OHKOes Skarm after Rocks which prevents an emergency Defog and hits Celesteela way harder than anything else. It does depend on your team a bit, but I'd generally pick between this move and Gunk Shot as opposed to running both. You hit most of the targets for Gunk Shot's neutral coverage and Tapu Fini as well, making them a bit redundant together.
Extrasensory hits Toxapex for like 70 or so, which is enough to make it a legit lure. It does similar amounts to non-spdef Venus, even does like 60 to max spdef Amoonguss, does the same to certain Dark Pulse targets (Manaphy and phys def Rotom-W come to mind), and OHKOes Keldeo/Buzzwole.
HP Fire is a Ferrothorn lure and also turns Greninja into a solid Mega Scizor check for teams that need one. You can also use it to hit Celesteela the hardest of any option and for Genesect, particularly without Hydro Pump. Use ESens with this if you don't want to be totally walled by Toxapex, but otherwise HP Fire+Gunk is fine for what you need. If you have HP Fire+Gunk, I probably wouldn't bother with Hydro though and just use ESens because there isn't exactly a whole lot else to run.
Dark Pulse is redundant with Aegislash banned. There are either super effective or better neutral coverage options to hit virtually everything you can hit with Dark Pulse, rendering it an inferior option for the most part. You can use this move for the sake of Dark STAB being good and random Psychics if you need that for some reason, but it really brings litlte to the table compared to other options in Greninja's arsenal.
In a post-Aegislash metagame where Greninja is no longer basically forced to run Dark Pulse, many more options are opened up for it because the only move that is truly mandatory is Ice Beam, for obvious reasons related to its potency as neutral coverage and dealing with typical Grasses/Dragons used to check offensive Waters. The basic idea you want to consider when building a Greninja set is how your team deals with various threats, because Greninja can be adapted to cover/lure pretty much anything if you want. The rest of this post will cover the specific options that exist in detail, some that are heavily used and some that are used less frequently, just so people can get an idea of what they can use with Greninja instead of just opting for some sort of very standard set without thinking and calling it a day. Remember that every time I talk about a specific combination being favored or unfavored that any given team can choose to break anything I say. It's just for the purpose of communicating some general ideas.
Gunk Shot is traditionally used to deal with Clefable, and also excels in light of other new Fairies, specifically achieving OHKOs on Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, and Tapu Koko. The main point of this option is to get rid of the new Fairies, specifically Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele (non-Scarf, though Greninja's Psychic immunity can help counterplay it regardless). Gunk Shot is also the only move that Greninja has to OHKO Tapu Koko (it even tanks an Ice Beam after Rocks from full), and can potentially bust through Mantine with the help of a 30% Poison chance. It's otherwise notable for doing good neutral damage to Waters, specifically Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Manaphy, and doing the most damage to Zard Y. For its help with Fairies and general neutral coverage, Gunk Shot is a strong option for Greninja. The largest disadvantage to it is imperfect accuracy, which Greninja tends to have the luxury to avoid with most its options, but 80% is enough that accuracy shouldn't be too large of a deterrent. There can also be some redundancy with certain other options, though no matter what it is always an option.
Hydro Pump's purpose is simple: it's the strongest special move in Greninja's viable arsenal by far. Other than hitting Heatran and Tyranitar, there's not a whole lot it does coverage-wise, but it helps out a lot with damage against neutral targets. For instance, Hydro Pump is the only non-Gunk Shot move Greninja possesses that has a chance to OHKO Tapu Koko from full or is guaranteed after Rocks, deals far more to Genesect (81-96 vs 59.3-70.3) than any non-HP Fire option, 2HKOes most any Mega Sableye, and 2HKOes bulky Mega Scizor. Aside from the specific targets, the primary takeaway you should get is the difference in strength vs neutral targets; for targets that are hit neutrally by both, Hydro Pump is ~37-37.5% stronger than Dark Pulse and ~22% stronger than Ice Beam. I wouldn't necessarily run Hydro Pump on every set because there are certainly many cases where the specific lures and super effective coverage can be superior for your team, and I also wouldn't use it with Spikes because there's only 3 slots for coverage, but Hydro Pump should always be considered a great option just because it is Greninja's strongest move.
Spikes Greninja is really good against more defensive teams that carry certain solid answers to it. Greninja is typically a Pokemon that forces many switches, providing many opportunities to set up the hazard and also apply pressure with it. Teams that can keep up the offensive tempo with other strong Pokemon, particularly VoltTurn and Landorus, can wear at opposing defensive cores very efficiently in a way that makes it fairly difficult to outlast the Greninja user, and Greninja can be adapted to beat any Defog user or Mega Sableye. I've said this in another post, but SR Landorus-I+Spikes Greninja with the right anti-Defogger lures puts absurd amounts of pressure and limitations on stall, to the point where it can be quite difficult to win. Not every team will want to run Spikes because you don't really want to run Defog+Spikes, which limits the types of teams and certain Pokemon you can use, but it's a strong option to add to the pressure Greninja applies.
HP Electric is a bit of a hidden gem in the current metagame, effectively luring Mantine. That makes it a big deal if you're running Spikes because then that can't Defog on you. I might argue that other sets can get by with Gunk Shot to break through Mantine, but being able to lure Mantine and prevent a Defog is such a strong option that I thought it was worth noting on its own. The other primary targets for HP Electric are other Waters, as it deals much more to Keldeo than Gunk Shot (73-86), 2HKOes Toxapex which basically gives you a free hole in something else or a kill if you predict the switch correctly, does more to Manaphy than anything else (63-76), OHKOes Pelipper (otherwise it could U-turn on you into dangerous rain sweeper for free and set rain again later), and prevents Gyara from setting up on you for free. It also OHKOes Skarm after Rocks which prevents an emergency Defog and hits Celesteela way harder than anything else. It does depend on your team a bit, but I'd generally pick between this move and Gunk Shot as opposed to running both. You hit most of the targets for Gunk Shot's neutral coverage and Tapu Fini as well, making them a bit redundant together.
Extrasensory hits Toxapex for like 70 or so, which is enough to make it a legit lure. It does similar amounts to non-spdef Venus, even does like 60 to max spdef Amoonguss, does the same to certain Dark Pulse targets (Manaphy and phys def Rotom-W come to mind), and OHKOes Keldeo/Buzzwole.
HP Fire is a Ferrothorn lure and also turns Greninja into a solid Mega Scizor check for teams that need one. You can also use it to hit Celesteela the hardest of any option and for Genesect, particularly without Hydro Pump. Use ESens with this if you don't want to be totally walled by Toxapex, but otherwise HP Fire+Gunk is fine for what you need. If you have HP Fire+Gunk, I probably wouldn't bother with Hydro though and just use ESens because there isn't exactly a whole lot else to run.
Dark Pulse is redundant with Aegislash banned. There are either super effective or better neutral coverage options to hit virtually everything you can hit with Dark Pulse, rendering it an inferior option for the most part. You can use this move for the sake of Dark STAB being good and random Psychics if you need that for some reason, but it really brings litlte to the table compared to other options in Greninja's arsenal.
Unfortunately Masquerain will still struggle as a relevant Quiver Dancer in the higher tiers. Particularly, Volcorona is still much faster, stronger and possesses better STAB, which more than makes up for the lack of intimidate and Water/Ice coverage. Volc aside, even other bugs like Venomoth give Masquerain a run for its money thanks to sleep moves/better abilities/moves. Timid base 80 Speed, even at +1, is still slower than Mega Zam/Aero and Pheromosa, along with a slew of dangerous Scarfers like Landorus, which OHKOs with Stone Edge. It's x4 to Stealth Rock, which in this generation also means it has to worry about the stray Accelrock that comes its way. It requires too much support and doesn't provide enough in return to truly do well.
But in PU? I could see it doing better this generation. I'd say it's at least on par with Butterfree, which is the only legal PU Quiver Dancer that's actually ranked at the moment. It's a trade off of Tinted Lens/Sleep Powder for a significant jump in stats and coverage. Really depends on what ends up being relevant in PU (when it gets created like a year from now) -- if Masquerain beats something relevant, then it will be used. If not, it won't. Just don't break it out until the lower tiers are actually established, because it's still garbage in OU.
EDIT: You might want to try this thread, if you're interested in talking about Masquerain's viability.
its because with this many new pokes still in OU aegislash coukd get outclassed by something stronger, or there's worse things out there that need banning asap. or maybe the meta changes and smogon stops banning literally everything and OU will have its power ceiling raised so that it can stop chucking everything into ubers.
"It has no counters" its cause its counters were banned into ubers. This is what's gonna happen with Pheromosa, this is always how its been and its not great.
Everyone seems to have completely written off Kommo-o as well, when in fact he's an amazing aegislash checker.
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I have a few questions about the Weather and Terrain aspects. I'm making a series of infographics (and possible a thread) about the Synergy between the two forms of what I decided to dub "Geomancy" (And before anyone asks this has nothing to do with Xerneas other than the name of his signature moves and that they can use Misty terrain. I just find it less cumbersome than "Environmental changes/effects"), which will be the topic of my infographics, teams using both a terrain and a weather.
With all that said, I only know the mechanics from a ...mechanical perspective and this don't know much from the teambuilding side of things other than that teams built around this concept favor the abilities more than the moves for setup, that Rain+Electric is the only combination in use at OU thus far. I also don't know what would counter these archtypes becuase I only have general knowedge based on the type chart, knowedge that I don;t think is useful on its own for the simple fact that coverage is a basic part of the meta, and that pokemon can be counters for reasons other than typing.
Also what i did find out is more OU-centric, and I have a feeling archetypes centered around using a terrain and a weather at once would be more diverse in lower tiers and more common in Doubles. so I want to know
With all that said, I only know the mechanics from a ...mechanical perspective and this don't know much from the teambuilding side of things other than that teams built around this concept favor the abilities more than the moves for setup, that Rain+Electric is the only combination in use at OU thus far. I also don't know what would counter these archtypes becuase I only have general knowedge based on the type chart, knowedge that I don;t think is useful on its own for the simple fact that coverage is a basic part of the meta, and that pokemon can be counters for reasons other than typing.
Also what i did find out is more OU-centric, and I have a feeling archetypes centered around using a terrain and a weather at once would be more diverse in lower tiers and more common in Doubles. so I want to know
The fact that most Greninja ran Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Dark Pulse when Aegislash was around was the main reason it had reasonable checks which could work most of the time. Now it just feels like guesswork with its 4mss alleviated.Let's talk about
In a post-Aegislash metagame where Greninja is no longer basically forced to run Dark Pulse, many more options are opened up for it because the only move that is truly mandatory is Ice Beam, for obvious reasons related to its potency as neutral coverage and dealing with typical Grasses/Dragons used to check offensive Waters. The basic idea you want to consider when building a Greninja set is how your team deals with various threats, because Greninja can be adapted to cover/lure pretty much anything if you want. The rest of this post will cover the specific options that exist in detail, some that are heavily used and some that are used less frequently, just so people can get an idea of what they can use with Greninja instead of just opting for some sort of very standard set without thinking and calling it a day. Remember that every time I talk about a specific combination being favored or unfavored that any given team can choose to break anything I say. It's just for the purpose of communicating some general ideas.
Gunk Shot is traditionally used to deal with Clefable, and also excels in light of other new Fairies, specifically achieving OHKOs on Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, and Tapu Koko. The main point of this option is to get rid of the new Fairies, specifically Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele (non-Scarf, though Greninja's Psychic immunity can help counterplay it regardless). Gunk Shot is also the only move that Greninja has to OHKO Tapu Koko (it even tanks an Ice Beam after Rocks from full), and can potentially bust through Mantine with the help of a 30% Poison chance. It's otherwise notable for doing good neutral damage to Waters, specifically Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Manaphy, and doing the most damage to Zard Y. For its help with Fairies and general neutral coverage, Gunk Shot is a strong option for Greninja. The largest disadvantage to it is imperfect accuracy, which Greninja tends to have the luxury to avoid with most its options, but 80% is enough that accuracy shouldn't be too large of a deterrent. There can also be some redundancy with certain other options, though no matter what it is always an option.
Hydro Pump's purpose is simple: it's the strongest special move in Greninja's viable arsenal by far. Other than hitting Heatran and Tyranitar, there's not a whole lot it does coverage-wise, but it helps out a lot with damage against neutral targets. For instance, Hydro Pump is the only non-Gunk Shot move Greninja possesses that has a chance to OHKO Tapu Koko from full or is guaranteed after Rocks, deals far more to Genesect (81-96 vs 59.3-70.3) than any non-HP Fire option, 2HKOes most any Mega Sableye, and 2HKOes bulky Mega Scizor. Aside from the specific targets, the primary takeaway you should get is the difference in strength vs neutral targets; for targets that are hit neutrally by both, Hydro Pump is ~37-37.5% stronger than Dark Pulse and ~22% stronger than Ice Beam. I wouldn't necessarily run Hydro Pump on every set because there are certainly many cases where the specific lures and super effective coverage can be superior for your team, and I also wouldn't use it with Spikes because there's only 3 slots for coverage, but Hydro Pump should always be considered a great option just because it is Greninja's strongest move.
Spikes Greninja is really good against more defensive teams that carry certain solid answers to it. Greninja is typically a Pokemon that forces many switches, providing many opportunities to set up the hazard and also apply pressure with it. Teams that can keep up the offensive tempo with other strong Pokemon, particularly VoltTurn and Landorus, can wear at opposing defensive cores very efficiently in a way that makes it fairly difficult to outlast the Greninja user, and Greninja can be adapted to beat any Defog user or Mega Sableye. I've said this in another post, but SR Landorus-I+Spikes Greninja with the right anti-Defogger lures puts absurd amounts of pressure and limitations on stall, to the point where it can be quite difficult to win. Not every team will want to run Spikes because you don't really want to run Defog+Spikes, which limits the types of teams and certain Pokemon you can use, but it's a strong option to add to the pressure Greninja applies.
HP Electric is a bit of a hidden gem in the current metagame, effectively luring Mantine. That makes it a big deal if you're running Spikes because then that can't Defog on you. I might argue that other sets can get by with Gunk Shot to break through Mantine, but being able to lure Mantine and prevent a Defog is such a strong option that I thought it was worth noting on its own. The other primary targets for HP Electric are other Waters, as it deals much more to Keldeo than Gunk Shot (73-86), 2HKOes Toxapex which basically gives you a free hole in something else or a kill if you predict the switch correctly, does more to Manaphy than anything else (63-76), OHKOes Pelipper (otherwise it could U-turn on you into dangerous rain sweeper for free and set rain again later), and prevents Gyara from setting up on you for free. It also OHKOes Skarm after Rocks which prevents an emergency Defog and hits Celesteela way harder than anything else. It does depend on your team a bit, but I'd generally pick between this move and Gunk Shot as opposed to running both. You hit most of the targets for Gunk Shot's neutral coverage and Tapu Fini as well, making them a bit redundant together.
Extrasensory hits Toxapex for like 70 or so, which is enough to make it a legit lure. It does similar amounts to non-spdef Venus, even does like 60 to max spdef Amoonguss, does the same to certain Dark Pulse targets (Manaphy and phys def Rotom-W come to mind), and OHKOes Keldeo/Buzzwole.
HP Fire is a Ferrothorn lure and also turns Greninja into a solid Mega Scizor check for teams that need one. You can also use it to hit Celesteela the hardest of any option and for Genesect, particularly without Hydro Pump. Use ESens with this if you don't want to be totally walled by Toxapex, but otherwise HP Fire+Gunk is fine for what you need. If you have HP Fire+Gunk, I probably wouldn't bother with Hydro though and just use ESens because there isn't exactly a whole lot else to run.
Dark Pulse is redundant with Aegislash banned. There are either super effective or better neutral coverage options to hit virtually everything you can hit with Dark Pulse, rendering it an inferior option for the most part. You can use this move for the sake of Dark STAB being good and random Psychics if you need that for some reason, but it really brings litlte to the table compared to other options in Greninja's arsenal.
Alright, so I decided to come up with a list of things that switch in on Special Pheromosa:
- Toxapex
- Mantine
- Pelipper
- Alolan Marowak
- Fairy Types such as Sylveon, Clefable, or a Tapu
Celesteela and Skarmory are 2HKO'd by Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 188-224 (47.2 - 56.2%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 239-282 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Staraptor and Dugtrio actually can Trap and kill or just eliminate all of those, and Phero can run HP Electric to take on Mantine and Pelipper. Seriously, Staraptor hits like a Truck and Dug traps and kills whatever it wants:
Honestly, Staraptor itself Nukes everything Phero would have issues with, and Dug takes care of Staraptor switchins.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 382-451 (96.9 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 337-397 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 343-405 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 417-492 (148.3 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 262-310 (80.8 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 330-388 (88.2 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Brave Bird alone destroys almost everything you'd need (And starts KOing some Electrics after Rocks). Dug also has Z-Memento for the hipsters if you want to gain momentum/Grab a free Pheromosa switch/Heal Staraptor since it kills itself really quickly.
Enjoy, and spam the ladder with this until it gets banned. Has some trouble with Celesteela but Phero 2HKOs and Staraptor can take it on after some prior damage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 177-209 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celesteela: 141-167 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
- Toxapex
- Mantine
- Pelipper
- Alolan Marowak
- Fairy Types such as Sylveon, Clefable, or a Tapu
Celesteela and Skarmory are 2HKO'd by Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 188-224 (47.2 - 56.2%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 239-282 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Staraptor and Dugtrio actually can Trap and kill or just eliminate all of those, and Phero can run HP Electric to take on Mantine and Pelipper. Seriously, Staraptor hits like a Truck and Dug traps and kills whatever it wants:
Honestly, Staraptor itself Nukes everything Phero would have issues with, and Dug takes care of Staraptor switchins.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 382-451 (96.9 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 337-397 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 343-405 (87 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 417-492 (148.3 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 262-310 (80.8 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 330-388 (88.2 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Brave Bird alone destroys almost everything you'd need (And starts KOing some Electrics after Rocks). Dug also has Z-Memento for the hipsters if you want to gain momentum/Grab a free Pheromosa switch/Heal Staraptor since it kills itself really quickly.
Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
Staraptor @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Quick Attack
- U-turn
- Double-Edge
Dugtrio @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Memento
- Sucker Punch
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
Staraptor @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Quick Attack
- U-turn
- Double-Edge
Dugtrio @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Memento
- Sucker Punch
Enjoy, and spam the ladder with this until it gets banned. Has some trouble with Celesteela but Phero 2HKOs and Staraptor can take it on after some prior damage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 177-209 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celesteela: 141-167 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Huh, Aegi got quickbanned. Didn't think it was quite QB worthy but hey, I'm not complaining. Dealing with Aegi was a gigantic pain in the ass and was honestly way too good for the tier imo. Spam Pheromosa while you still can XP
Personally, I feel Hoopa-U and Lando-I will see decreased usage, as they were the two best Aegi breakers and now they are screwed by our new God, Pheromosa with Ice Beam. Literally everything Aegi cockblocked are going to skyrocket in usage, so expect more megas like MAla and MMeta as well as a shitload of Pheromosa and some more Buzzwole and Kartana. The Tapus are now literally only held in check by AloMaro and PJ Pheromosa, meaning Tapu Spam is going to be super nifty. Tapu Lele in specific is going to be stupid, what with it's best switchin (who still took heavy damage from Psychic anyways) no longer around. Tapu Bulu wasn't really kept in check super well by Aegi anyways considering it took significant investment for Aegi to live it's Wood Hammer as a 3hko, and neither was Koko. Toxapex usage is going to skyrocket, what with it being the only reliable Phero counter in the entire tier right now. Until Phero goes anyways.
There's a few more predictions I have but I don't have time rn, rip.
Personally, I feel Hoopa-U and Lando-I will see decreased usage, as they were the two best Aegi breakers and now they are screwed by our new God, Pheromosa with Ice Beam. Literally everything Aegi cockblocked are going to skyrocket in usage, so expect more megas like MAla and MMeta as well as a shitload of Pheromosa and some more Buzzwole and Kartana. The Tapus are now literally only held in check by AloMaro and PJ Pheromosa, meaning Tapu Spam is going to be super nifty. Tapu Lele in specific is going to be stupid, what with it's best switchin (who still took heavy damage from Psychic anyways) no longer around. Tapu Bulu wasn't really kept in check super well by Aegi anyways considering it took significant investment for Aegi to live it's Wood Hammer as a 3hko, and neither was Koko. Toxapex usage is going to skyrocket, what with it being the only reliable Phero counter in the entire tier right now. Until Phero goes anyways.
There's a few more predictions I have but I don't have time rn, rip.
Nothing to say other than this is going to be a ridiculous meta that I don't think Mantine and Toxapex (if you want to stretch than Celesteela) being introduced as viable walls is going to save from the ridiculous power creep and now from 20 insanely strong mons to like 30 combined with Z moves. Let's see what happens but I'm not looking forward to it at all and I'll probably end up quitting like I did for almost the entirety of ORAS. Good luck banning all these Pokemon that turned ORAS into practically a game of match-up combined with the new ones, I genuinely want to like this gen so please, do it.
I think a Pokemon I except to see a lot of usage in is Kartana, with Aegislash gone and with Tangrowth not doing so well in this meta Kartana can now easily come in on any slower mon and start packing a lot of damage. Kartana's solid physical defense means mons like Scizor won't be able to deal sufficient amounts while Kartana has base 181 Attack Sacred Sword combined with Swords Dance to basically function like Mega Medicham did. Kill one Pokemon and force a fast mon to revenge kill.
I think a Pokemon I except to see a lot of usage in is Kartana, with Aegislash gone and with Tangrowth not doing so well in this meta Kartana can now easily come in on any slower mon and start packing a lot of damage. Kartana's solid physical defense means mons like Scizor won't be able to deal sufficient amounts while Kartana has base 181 Attack Sacred Sword combined with Swords Dance to basically function like Mega Medicham did. Kill one Pokemon and force a fast mon to revenge kill.
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I don't really see how Aegi being banned will affect Hoopa or Lando-I usage considering that they both still do a very good job of manhandling fat teams just like they did with Aegi there. Heck, they didn't even come in on it that consistently while also not really coming in on a faint if it had a Sub up, and in the case of Hoopa-U it could have it's choice of lock scouted out by King's Shield if a Sub wasn't up. Either way if these things come out chances are they're either getting a kill or seriously denting something, and given just how versatile+threatening both of these things are they are both still gonna be absolutely massive issues.
Anyway yeah if Aegislash used something for a free Sub then it's defo gonna become viable now (looking at you Jirachi, Toxapex and Mantine). Also I'm looking forward tobeing able to run actual Fighting-type STABs rather than EQ now! From here it's just about banning what's retarded and seeing where that leaves us. Good riddance is all I'll say.
Anyway yeah if Aegislash used something for a free Sub then it's defo gonna become viable now (looking at you Jirachi, Toxapex and Mantine). Also I'm looking forward tobeing able to run actual Fighting-type STABs rather than EQ now! From here it's just about banning what's retarded and seeing where that leaves us. Good riddance is all I'll say.
No. HSF breaks both. People spammed the shit out of CB Hoopa on ladder when Aegi was around because if it got in, Aegi or something else died, period.
Hoopa is the least of our worries now, but that's not saying much. The predictions about Phero being dominant post Aegi-ban were spot-on; checking that thing is just stupidly difficult. You have to run Toxapex or it controls the game.
Isn't heart stamp better than ZHB?Since someone brought up Starmie, who dropped to UU last time Aegislash was legal in OU, let me bring up someone else that shared the same fate then bounced back:
Jirachi @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Happy Hour
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt/Fire Punch
- Ice Punch/Fire Punch
People hyped up Happy Hour Jirachi and then it completely failed to materialize, probably due in part to Aegislash, as it eats Fire Punch and threatens Jirachi out with Shadow Ball + Sneak. Perhaps this set now has time to shine! For those unaware, Z-Happy Hour acts like Z-Conversion in that it boosts all stats by +1. Neutral 236 Speed outpaces all non-Scarf Pheromosa at +1, but you can go Jolly + max if you want to outspeed everything that Scarf Jirachi typically does. You could also invest more in bulk to setup easier, but I'm completely unsure what benchmarks to hit at this time. Moveset is flexible other than Iron Head. Zen Headbutt is particularly nice if paired with Tapu Lele due to the damage boost and priority blocking. Ice Punch hits Lando/Chomp while Fire Punch hits Scizor/Ferro/Kartana/Celesteela/Skarmory/etc. You can also experiment with Jirachi's wide special movepool with moves like Psychic, Thunderbolt, Icy Wind and even Doom Desire. Mainly, though, the point of this set is to rely on fewer flinches to beat down foes, as +1 Adamant attacks hit the same as a Jolly Band Pokemon with base 115. However, flinches are now easier than ever to get, as you outspeed everything slower than Ninjask if they lack Scarf/boosts. You can also tank quite a few hits at +1/+1 due to your natural bulk, easily living EQ from defensive Garchomp/Landorus and maybe even 3 Lava Plumes from defensive Heatran if you're lucky.
Like Porygon-Z, Jirachi can initiate a GeoXern-esque late game sweep, trading a bit of power for a lot of bulk and utility. Due to Jirachi's flexibility, I expect many variations of this set to crop up in OU.
EDIT: Mildly Greninja'd by bludz
Edit: Oh nvm that I forgot it's illegal with Celebrate
Really liking Ninja in post-Aegi meta on Lele Hyper Offense. ESense gets a sizable boost from terrain for it to break more bulky teams and Low Kick is a godsent for Psychic spam to get rid of Bisharp, Tran and Tar more reliablyLet's talk about
In a post-Aegislash metagame where Greninja is no longer basically forced to run Dark Pulse, many more options are opened up for it because the only move that is truly mandatory is Ice Beam, for obvious reasons related to its potency as neutral coverage and dealing with typical Grasses/Dragons used to check offensive Waters. The basic idea you want to consider when building a Greninja set is how your team deals with various threats, because Greninja can be adapted to cover/lure pretty much anything if you want. The rest of this post will cover the specific options that exist in detail, some that are heavily used and some that are used less frequently, just so people can get an idea of what they can use with Greninja instead of just opting for some sort of very standard set without thinking and calling it a day. Remember that every time I talk about a specific combination being favored or unfavored that any given team can choose to break anything I say. It's just for the purpose of communicating some general ideas.
Gunk Shot is traditionally used to deal with Clefable, and also excels in light of other new Fairies, specifically achieving OHKOs on Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, and Tapu Koko. The main point of this option is to get rid of the new Fairies, specifically Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele (non-Scarf, though Greninja's Psychic immunity can help counterplay it regardless). Gunk Shot is also the only move that Greninja has to OHKO Tapu Koko (it even tanks an Ice Beam after Rocks from full), and can potentially bust through Mantine with the help of a 30% Poison chance. It's otherwise notable for doing good neutral damage to Waters, specifically Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Manaphy, and doing the most damage to Zard Y. For its help with Fairies and general neutral coverage, Gunk Shot is a strong option for Greninja. The largest disadvantage to it is imperfect accuracy, which Greninja tends to have the luxury to avoid with most its options, but 80% is enough that accuracy shouldn't be too large of a deterrent. There can also be some redundancy with certain other options, though no matter what it is always an option.
Hydro Pump's purpose is simple: it's the strongest special move in Greninja's viable arsenal by far. Other than hitting Heatran and Tyranitar, there's not a whole lot it does coverage-wise, but it helps out a lot with damage against neutral targets. For instance, Hydro Pump is the only non-Gunk Shot move Greninja possesses that has a chance to OHKO Tapu Koko from full or is guaranteed after Rocks, deals far more to Genesect (81-96 vs 59.3-70.3) than any non-HP Fire option, 2HKOes most any Mega Sableye, and 2HKOes bulky Mega Scizor. Aside from the specific targets, the primary takeaway you should get is the difference in strength vs neutral targets; for targets that are hit neutrally by both, Hydro Pump is ~37-37.5% stronger than Dark Pulse and ~22% stronger than Ice Beam. I wouldn't necessarily run Hydro Pump on every set because there are certainly many cases where the specific lures and super effective coverage can be superior for your team, and I also wouldn't use it with Spikes because there's only 3 slots for coverage, but Hydro Pump should always be considered a great option just because it is Greninja's strongest move.
Spikes Greninja is really good against more defensive teams that carry certain solid answers to it. Greninja is typically a Pokemon that forces many switches, providing many opportunities to set up the hazard and also apply pressure with it. Teams that can keep up the offensive tempo with other strong Pokemon, particularly VoltTurn and Landorus, can wear at opposing defensive cores very efficiently in a way that makes it fairly difficult to outlast the Greninja user, and Greninja can be adapted to beat any Defog user or Mega Sableye. I've said this in another post, but SR Landorus-I+Spikes Greninja with the right anti-Defogger lures puts absurd amounts of pressure and limitations on stall, to the point where it can be quite difficult to win. Not every team will want to run Spikes because you don't really want to run Defog+Spikes, which limits the types of teams and certain Pokemon you can use, but it's a strong option to add to the pressure Greninja applies.
HP Electric is a bit of a hidden gem in the current metagame, effectively luring Mantine. That makes it a big deal if you're running Spikes because then that can't Defog on you. I might argue that other sets can get by with Gunk Shot to break through Mantine, but being able to lure Mantine and prevent a Defog is such a strong option that I thought it was worth noting on its own. The other primary targets for HP Electric are other Waters, as it deals much more to Keldeo than Gunk Shot (73-86), 2HKOes Toxapex which basically gives you a free hole in something else or a kill if you predict the switch correctly, does more to Manaphy than anything else (63-76), OHKOes Pelipper (otherwise it could U-turn on you into dangerous rain sweeper for free and set rain again later), and prevents Gyara from setting up on you for free. It also OHKOes Skarm after Rocks which prevents an emergency Defog and hits Celesteela way harder than anything else. It does depend on your team a bit, but I'd generally pick between this move and Gunk Shot as opposed to running both. You hit most of the targets for Gunk Shot's neutral coverage and Tapu Fini as well, making them a bit redundant together.
Extrasensory hits Toxapex for like 70 or so, which is enough to make it a legit lure. It does similar amounts to non-spdef Venus, even does like 60 to max spdef Amoonguss, does the same to certain Dark Pulse targets (Manaphy and phys def Rotom-W come to mind), and OHKOes Keldeo/Buzzwole.
HP Fire is a Ferrothorn lure and also turns Greninja into a solid Mega Scizor check for teams that need one. You can also use it to hit Celesteela the hardest of any option and for Genesect, particularly without Hydro Pump. Use ESens with this if you don't want to be totally walled by Toxapex, but otherwise HP Fire+Gunk is fine for what you need. If you have HP Fire+Gunk, I probably wouldn't bother with Hydro though and just use ESens because there isn't exactly a whole lot else to run.
Dark Pulse is redundant with Aegislash banned. There are either super effective or better neutral coverage options to hit virtually everything you can hit with Dark Pulse, rendering it an inferior option for the most part. You can use this move for the sake of Dark STAB being good and random Psychics if you need that for some reason, but it really brings litlte to the table compared to other options in Greninja's arsenal.
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Can I add an interesting opinion around?
I find Trick Room quite entertaining and useful... I know it is sounding gimmicky, but Hyper Offense is always thrown off-guard especially at the moment that it was found out that it was actually Trick Room...
It is simply because this Pokemon is something you would not expect to have holding a Trick Room...
Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast
It is a simple, generic offensive Trick Room Set with no set up... with access to Volt Switch, it can easily go out and allow a fellow teammate to start a sweep. A-Marowak benefits heavily from this, As Rock Head plus Thick Club enables it to hit so many Pokemon hard...
I'm currently running a Trick-Room set in the lower ladder and I caught a lot of players off-guard, especially since I paired Magearna up with Porygon 2 (My Defensive Trick Room Setter) and Victini (My Wall Breaker Trick Room Setter). I actually found Lurantis a good, yet 1-dimensional Pokemon in my team, forming a niche as my Trick Room Offensive Support/Special Wallbreaker thanks to Contrary, as it gets access to Aromatherapy and Defog. I simply had HP Fire to deal with Steel Types. Since many Alolan Pokemon are slow, this might give a new lease of life to them...
If only Tapu Lele had rest, I could've had the perfect Trick Room Team.
I find Trick Room quite entertaining and useful... I know it is sounding gimmicky, but Hyper Offense is always thrown off-guard especially at the moment that it was found out that it was actually Trick Room...
It is simply because this Pokemon is something you would not expect to have holding a Trick Room...
Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast
It is a simple, generic offensive Trick Room Set with no set up... with access to Volt Switch, it can easily go out and allow a fellow teammate to start a sweep. A-Marowak benefits heavily from this, As Rock Head plus Thick Club enables it to hit so many Pokemon hard...
I'm currently running a Trick-Room set in the lower ladder and I caught a lot of players off-guard, especially since I paired Magearna up with Porygon 2 (My Defensive Trick Room Setter) and Victini (My Wall Breaker Trick Room Setter). I actually found Lurantis a good, yet 1-dimensional Pokemon in my team, forming a niche as my Trick Room Offensive Support/Special Wallbreaker thanks to Contrary, as it gets access to Aromatherapy and Defog. I simply had HP Fire to deal with Steel Types. Since many Alolan Pokemon are slow, this might give a new lease of life to them...
If only Tapu Lele had rest, I could've had the perfect Trick Room Team.
- Status