God, yeah, Zygarde is an absolutely major threat. I'm using specially defensive Sub/Coil/Thousand Arrows/Toxic, which is pretty perfect because everything that's immune to toxic is weak to ground, and let's be real, it's not like you need anything else in that slot. Yeah, you set up on shit like Celesteela or Skarm or Ferro or Tyranitar or weak scalds or whatever and wreak havoc. Ive been using it paired with Aurora Veil Ninetales because literally Clefable's Moonblast doesn't break your sub. This mon is the most perfect monoattacker I have ever seen in my life. It's fucking nuts.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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God, yeah, Zygarde is an absolutely major threat. I'm using specially defensive Sub/Coil/Thousand Arrows/Toxic, which is pretty perfect because everything that's immune to toxic is weak to ground, and let's be real, it's not like you need anything else in that slot. Yeah, you set up on shit like Celesteela or Skarm or Ferro or Tyranitar or weak scalds or whatever and wreak havoc. Ive been using it paired with Aurora Veil Ninetales because literally Clefable's Moonblast doesn't break your sub. This mon is the most perfect monoattacker I have ever seen in my life. It's fucking nuts.
So random ass thoughts:
Greninja / Landorus-I are still sleeper threats. I still fear them when using an offensive team. Landorus-I will usually dent some of the mons I pack heavily and then Greninja is still trolling with its Speed tier and access to STAB everything. I think once Phero is gone we may see these monsters quite a bit - outside of Genesect and Hoopa-U I still think these threats are pretty hard to manage.
Tapu Lele is a mon I keep forgetting learns Thunderbolt. Well, at first.The weird thing is its ENTIRE moveset is resisted by Magnezone and there are quite a few Steel mons that can resist the moves.I think it's a very big threat and its synergy with Mega Alakazam is no joke. Metagross, Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Magearna, and Magnezone seem to help cumbersome the Lele threat, but damn the boosted Psychics hurt like hell. I have noticed in a pinch I can change the terrain with something like Tapu Bulu on a revenge (assuming full health) and KO it afterwards.
Ok I forgot it learned Focus Miss and Shadow Ball. >_>; Yeah it's not fun to face. I've seen tbolt lately. And after seeing Focus Blast I remember I'm a boosted animal. Really torn on its existence but feel it needs to stay a while longer.
Tapu Bulu is so much fun. Choice Band is by far my favorite set because it hits like a nuke. +1 Horn Leech does a great amount of damage and the recovery is so cool. I really like the additional threat of STAB Wood Hammer on Grassy Terrain versus bulkier teams. This mon is absolutely fun. A little prone to Celesteela switch-ins, I admit, but their lack of recovery outside of Leech Seed / Leftovers at least makes it certain that it won't switch in too often if you keep it unhealthy.
Tapu Fini is underrated. I feel a lot of people dismiss it because it can't status things, but the status immunity has saved my ass so many times. Taunt / Defog / Nature's Madness / Scald or Moonblast is my favorite. I like Scald for levitating Steels and mons that float that don't always like a burn. Protection against Scald is really nice for physically offensive mons like Tyranitar who otherwise aren't bothered much by Scalds anyway.
I feel I have not given Alola Marowak credit. It was one mon I just kind of looked and knocked down. It's really nice in this meta because it is a huge cockblock for Electric spamming.
Celesteela is a fun mon too, though I recommend Life Orb always on Automatize. I have missed so many KOes without Life Orb it was disgusting. Leech Seed is hilarious, and though it is weak to Electric there are a lot of partners that work well with it (Dugtrio, Magnezone, A Marowak).
There's more, and I definitely want to agree with the meta that even though Phero in an Aegis-free meta is fun for you to run, it is a pain to face. There have been some okay answers to this thing, which is great, but man it sucks if your opponent knows how to fold the cards right or it or you get super unlucky.
EDIT: Oh, and I have used a little bit of Zygarde. RestTalk Coil is still pretty nuts if there are no real major threats. Bulkier teams don't like facing this thing unless they have Taunt, Haze, or Phazing.
Greninja / Landorus-I are still sleeper threats. I still fear them when using an offensive team. Landorus-I will usually dent some of the mons I pack heavily and then Greninja is still trolling with its Speed tier and access to STAB everything. I think once Phero is gone we may see these monsters quite a bit - outside of Genesect and Hoopa-U I still think these threats are pretty hard to manage.
Tapu Lele is a mon I keep forgetting learns Thunderbolt. Well, at first.
Ok I forgot it learned Focus Miss and Shadow Ball. >_>; Yeah it's not fun to face. I've seen tbolt lately. And after seeing Focus Blast I remember I'm a boosted animal. Really torn on its existence but feel it needs to stay a while longer.
Tapu Bulu is so much fun. Choice Band is by far my favorite set because it hits like a nuke. +1 Horn Leech does a great amount of damage and the recovery is so cool. I really like the additional threat of STAB Wood Hammer on Grassy Terrain versus bulkier teams. This mon is absolutely fun. A little prone to Celesteela switch-ins, I admit, but their lack of recovery outside of Leech Seed / Leftovers at least makes it certain that it won't switch in too often if you keep it unhealthy.
Tapu Fini is underrated. I feel a lot of people dismiss it because it can't status things, but the status immunity has saved my ass so many times. Taunt / Defog / Nature's Madness / Scald or Moonblast is my favorite. I like Scald for levitating Steels and mons that float that don't always like a burn. Protection against Scald is really nice for physically offensive mons like Tyranitar who otherwise aren't bothered much by Scalds anyway.
I feel I have not given Alola Marowak credit. It was one mon I just kind of looked and knocked down. It's really nice in this meta because it is a huge cockblock for Electric spamming.
Celesteela is a fun mon too, though I recommend Life Orb always on Automatize. I have missed so many KOes without Life Orb it was disgusting. Leech Seed is hilarious, and though it is weak to Electric there are a lot of partners that work well with it (Dugtrio, Magnezone, A Marowak).
There's more, and I definitely want to agree with the meta that even though Phero in an Aegis-free meta is fun for you to run, it is a pain to face. There have been some okay answers to this thing, which is great, but man it sucks if your opponent knows how to fold the cards right or it or you get super unlucky.
EDIT: Oh, and I have used a little bit of Zygarde. RestTalk Coil is still pretty nuts if there are no real major threats. Bulkier teams don't like facing this thing unless they have Taunt, Haze, or Phazing.
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I love Jirachi since Gen 3 when I used it with Choice Band + Doom Desire (I'm that kind of guy). And now it just seems like a little beast (I say little because sometimes it just seems to not hit hard enough).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-486954364
I derped a little against Kartana because I have no idea what moveset it is supposed to run and I'm too lazy to look out during battles. But then Jirachi just turned the game around like it was Christmas morning.
Fair enough. Celesteela is another answer to Landorus-I that we have in Gen 7. However, as Colonel M said above this post, Landorus-I is to be feared when using an offensive team. Generally, you're not running Celesteela on offense - its more useful on balanced teams. Landorus-I presents the same problem against balance/offense that Greninja, Pheromosa, and to a lesser extent, Mega-Lopunny and Weavile did (in ORAS OU) - its fast, hits hard with decent coverage, and has very limited switch ins. With the latter mons, including Pheramosa, you at least have options for switch ins on these teams, whereas Greninja and Landorus-I do not have as many concrete answers. I will say that Landorus's speed tier is what keeps it from being insanely broken - 101 is manageable for offense to handle/revenge kill (but is being forced to revenge kill truly balanced?), where as balance has to take a heavy hit/predict correctly, but at least balance/stall have wiggle room to predict.
On a different note, I've seen more Choice Band Zygarde 10% than I have 50%. Zy-doge is one-dimensional, although effective at what it does. I do think its pretty easily shut down by Grass/Bugs though, so nothing ridiculous to manage. I wonder how many people will run stuff like Icicle Spear to get rid of Substitute variants of Zygarde (provided it doesn't get too many Coils under its belt first)?
Don't wanna burst your bubble but
Due to the way the Zygarde assembly works, a Zygarde-10% without Power Construct cannot have Iron Tail (or any Gen 6 exclusive moves for that matter). Zygarde-50 cannot directly transform into Zygarde-10 w/o it - Zygarde-10 with Aura Break is Alola-native.
The biggest thing about Pheromosa that makes it so dominant is that it provides free switch-ins to things like Lando, Lele, and Greninja who can all mess things up pretty badly, but don't necessarily have the bulk to come in consistently(less so with Lele). Hyper offense is going crazy on ladder right now, mostly because of a combination of these and other threats. Aegislash kept Phero and Lele in check, and forced Greninja to run Dark Pulse, making it generally easier to counter. I don't want to just say quickban Phero, but I've been seeing stuff like Mega Aero and Mega Zam suddenly show up on the ladder after the Aegi ban went down.
Lele is a really good partner to a lot of dark types right now, most interesting right now being Mega Sharpedo, who could be OU by usage by the time the dust settles, since from wat Ive seen Mach punch almost isnt a thing anymore thanks to the tapus, and Lele has such good synergy with it.
Tapu Lele has quickly rose to prominence as one of SM's best Pokemon due to the incredible power behind Specs, blatant effectiveness of a Scarf set, and a CM set that demolishes bulkier teams with the utmost ease. To top it all off, Psychic Surge basically offers it a free Specs boost on its already powerful Psychic STAB which pushes it's power into ludicrous levels. Specs, quite literally, has no safe switch-ins at all due to the combination of its stellar power and coverage. You just can't truly account for it when teambuilding. This leaves Specs set with only one form of counterplay which is packing something that's faster and able to directly threaten it with a KO. This is quite difficult to do as it's defensive typing isn't bad in the least and its relatively sturdy for an offensive mon. On the other hand, Scarf sets, while significantly easier to play around, don't even thirst for extra power unlike other Scarfers as it has plenty to spare.
So essentially, Tapu Lele is on or very close to the same level of absurdity as Hoopa-U, Landorus-I, Genesect, Greninja, and Pheromosa. It's most comparable to Hoopa, even to the point where many players have dubbed it Hoopa 2.0 due to it filling the role of an outrageously strong wallbreaker more effectively than Hoopa in quite a few instances.
I think thats a bit extreme for an analysis, most bulky steels in the meta (AV/Spdef Drill, Jirachi, Mega Metagross, etc) handle it pretty well, I dont think its broken but will soon be an S rank OU mon for its potency and ability to support other offensive mons
Tapu Lele has quickly rose to prominence as one of SM's best Pokemon due to the incredible power behind Specs, blatant effectiveness of a Scarf set, and a CM set that demolishes bulkier teams with the utmost ease. To top it all off, Psychic Surge basically offers it a free Specs boost on its already powerful Psychic STAB which pushes it's power into ludicrous levels. Specs, quite literally, has no safe switch-ins at all due to the combination of its stellar power and coverage. You just can't truly account for it when teambuilding. This leaves Specs set with only one form of counterplay which is packing something that's faster and able to directly threaten it with a KO. This is quite difficult to do as it's defensive typing isn't bad in the least and its relatively sturdy for an offensive mon. On the other hand, Scarf sets, while significantly easier to play around, don't even thirst for extra power unlike other Scarfers as it has plenty to spare.
So essentially, Tapu Lele is on or very close to the same level of absurdity as Hoopa-U, Landorus-I, Genesect, Greninja, and Pheromosa. It's most comparable to Hoopa, even to the point where many players have dubbed it Hoopa 2.0 due to it filling the role of an outrageously strong wallbreaker more effectively than Hoopa in quite a few instances.
Well, it's certainly legal on the ladder, so until it's fixed, this all still stands.
Once it is.... erm... run Banded Toxic? You might as well.
Though once again, Sludge Wave hits Bulu pretty hard, but can't 2HKO Phys Def Tang, and idk if that's legal either
If I may suggest an idea, I kind of want to see where the meta goes if Tapu Lele were to be banned and Pheromosa stays. In theory, if Priority moves become more effective to use because of the lack of Psychic Terrain, wouldn't that make Pheromosa, Greninja, and other really fast but frail mons more manageable? Sure, Pheromosa is still incredibly powerful, but it's also incredibly frail. If Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, Azumarill, etc don't have to fear Psychic Terrain, Pheromosa becomes incredibly countered by priority, does it not? I think this is something worth trying out for a bit before making the swift judgement of banning Pheromosa completely.
Yeah but you need to ask why this logic was never applied to something like Deoxys. If it was THAT easy we would have realised by now.
No disrespect to you but I'm not sure you're understanding why Pheromosa is a problem? If your counterplay is "priority", regardless of whether or not Psychic Terrain is a factor, something's wrong. The sad thing is revenge killing it with a Scarfer or indeed hitting it with priority and/or running something like Toxapex is more or less the extent of counterplay atm. I won't beat a dead horse - I'm pretty sure we all know by now why its a cause for concern. But I'm not so sure banning Tapu Lele will fix Pheromosa.
That's not "most bulky steel". That's literally "the most bulky steels". I recount 2HKOing numerous Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Scizors and OHKOing countless Genesects that think they can switch into Psychic.
I really love Lele offense but honestly I won't be surprised to see her getting the ban hammer. Honestly wondering if Mew can serve as a good enough replacement with Genesis Supernova
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I wouldnt be opposed to a suspect, I just don't feel like its broken at the moment
I couldn't get behind this, since we'd be banning something that may or may not be broken to see if we can limit something that is broken just so it can stay OU
Been experimenting more on Trick Room lately and Lurantis has become my team's MVP.
Lurantis @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog
- Aromatherapy
It has been a good Offensive support paired with A-Marowak. With Defog and Aromatherapy in its movepool, and so little players knowing what it can do, it can surprise a lot of players, especially Hyper Offense and some Balance Archetypes. It can 1v1 Toxapex under Trick Room without Venoshock, can heal its teammates, and can strike back hard with Leaf Storm. HP Fire is for Steel types, helping my team deal with Kartana and Ferrothorn, and can help dent Celesteele. I'm surprised that I ALWAYS caught Rotom-W on the lower ladders that I've been playing with. I wanted to share this here because Trick Room Hyper Offense has become easier than before because it now has a very good offensive cleric 'mon present.
Lurantis @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Defog
- Aromatherapy
It has been a good Offensive support paired with A-Marowak. With Defog and Aromatherapy in its movepool, and so little players knowing what it can do, it can surprise a lot of players, especially Hyper Offense and some Balance Archetypes. It can 1v1 Toxapex under Trick Room without Venoshock, can heal its teammates, and can strike back hard with Leaf Storm. HP Fire is for Steel types, helping my team deal with Kartana and Ferrothorn, and can help dent Celesteele. I'm surprised that I ALWAYS caught Rotom-W on the lower ladders that I've been playing with. I wanted to share this here because Trick Room Hyper Offense has become easier than before because it now has a very good offensive cleric 'mon present.
Ask yourself why Greninja got banned in Gen VI despite Psychic Terrain not existing.
I realise I'm in the minority, but don't think Pheromosa is THAT bad. As in not insta-ban worthy. I am finding the Tapu's worse to deal with. I've been using Pheromosa purely because I want a chance to use it before it gets banned for good, and I'm finding it dies to ANYTHING that can get a hit on it, like Bullet Punch Scizor for example. Pheromosa also doesn't have the best coverage moves and doesn't always KO things that you would expect it to.
And a few people have said that Alolan Marowak isn't that good, and that when all the pokemon it counters get banned and it's niche is no longer required it will be forgotten. I don't know what Alolan Marowaks these people are experiencing, but it's actually VERY good, with a plethora of useful immunities and resistances, good stat distribution, little attack investment needed, and the ability to DESTROY things with Thick Club Bonemerang, Shadow Bone and Flare Blitz. When pokemon like Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, Thunderus, Buzzwole, Kartana, Genesect, Tapu Bulu, Xurkitree, and Scizor struggle to deal with you, that's not a niche. That's OU.
And a few people have said that Alolan Marowak isn't that good, and that when all the pokemon it counters get banned and it's niche is no longer required it will be forgotten. I don't know what Alolan Marowaks these people are experiencing, but it's actually VERY good, with a plethora of useful immunities and resistances, good stat distribution, little attack investment needed, and the ability to DESTROY things with Thick Club Bonemerang, Shadow Bone and Flare Blitz. When pokemon like Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, Thunderus, Buzzwole, Kartana, Genesect, Tapu Bulu, Xurkitree, and Scizor struggle to deal with you, that's not a niche. That's OU.
Pheromosa isn't a be-all end all destroyer of every team, but it shreds through offence teams with ease and after a single beast boost you outspeed like every scarfer and swift swim abuser so unless you have STRONG priority (Resists Sucker Punch and some other prios) you're likely screwed. Or you can run a scarf, outspeed them by default and then get an attack boost and actually murder everything. Just my thoughts.
I'm surprised nobody has been complaining about Magearna. She's got a defensive great typing and bulk, along with a great special attack stat with a great movepool too.Once she gets a kill, she becomes very difficult to stop. I have struggled to find a solid answer to her now that Aegi is gone. Is she not as good as think she is, or do my struggles have merit?
I'm surprised too. It's very versatile: trick room, shift gear, AV, maybe even scarf. Most notably, the trick room set scares me. It has great bulk, taking 2 hp fires from mega Alakazam while still clinging to life. Trying to OHKO it before it sets up is almost just not an option, bar lando's earth power (which itself is worthy of suspect) and niche counters. Mental herb can block taunt. Then it goes to town.
Shift gear is problematic too. Soul heart, strong stab, and 502 speed is nothing to laugh at. Even modest out speeds Pheromosa.
I'm really liking OTR. I first used it on a wider Trick Room team but have since started using it as a standalone a la Reuniclus, except with more power and a better defensive typing, along with a nuclear option in Fleur Cannon. I may try it with Z Aura Sphere to really nuke bulky Steels instead of a Life Orb (Soul Heart takes care of the damage deficit from no LO), though if it can use a Fire Z Move with HP Fire that's also an option to break ones like Celesteela that take neutral damage from Fighting attacks.
What's with the lele hate? Psychic gets walled by blobs and bulky steels. More steels counter it with psyshock sets, like Skarmory, in case you want to hit blobs hard. And this is assuming specs, which means you get out sped by metagross, dugtrio, Pheromosa, many scarfers, Lando I, and so on.
Scarf sets lack the sheer power to break through steel and psychic types in general, as well as blobs even with psyshock, and walls in general.
I'm using a life orb set, which has a lot of power and freedom of movement choice. However, steel types can switch in, as it's not as powerful as specs, and it only 2 hit KOs blobs if it is modest psyshock. Not to mention life orb recoil adds up, and it gets out sped by many offense threats like the specs set (including dugtrio, which 2 hit KOs).
I don't know who is complaining, but I'm not running into them on the ladder, because people deal with my lele fine.
Scarf sets lack the sheer power to break through steel and psychic types in general, as well as blobs even with psyshock, and walls in general.
I'm using a life orb set, which has a lot of power and freedom of movement choice. However, steel types can switch in, as it's not as powerful as specs, and it only 2 hit KOs blobs if it is modest psyshock. Not to mention life orb recoil adds up, and it gets out sped by many offense threats like the specs set (including dugtrio, which 2 hit KOs).
I don't know who is complaining, but I'm not running into them on the ladder, because people deal with my lele fine.
I'm sure other people have made notice that A-Marowak and M-Gyarados make a pretty good combination as they effectively cover each other offensively but also are pretty much perfect defensively. What I'm having a hard time thinking of are other good members to add around this core. Any help would be appreciated.
You act like 2HKO'ing a blob as a special attacker is no big deal.
Not even latios has that kind of damage with psyshock.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-266 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This just has absolutely no walls, steel types often don't have recovery and can only switch in so much. HP fire is also a thing.
Scarf sets just ruin greninja and duggy, its the fact that is has a way around all its problems that makes it too much to deal with. At team preview nobody knows if its scarf or life orb yet to appropriately deal with it.
Not to mention it supports an entire team, it basically breaks every psychic type in the game.
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Not possible. Regardless of Hidden Power's type, it's treated as Normal for the purposes of Z-moves because Hidden Power's base type is Normal, so your only real option for an anti-Steel Z-move is the Fighting one. I'd say Aura Sphere is the better one overall because the base move is more reliable once you get your Z-move off, but if you want it to beat Celesteela specifically you might want to opt for Focus Blast instead. (I gotta get going, so I can't run the damage calcs right now to see whether that would even be enough to get the KO you need, just saying it might be an option.)
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